Why WYSIWYG Is Crap - arguing with  

If my opponent can identify guns from 4' away and memorized the profiles of them all individually, I was already losing that game.

I stopped caring about wysiwyg when I started playing xenos and realized half the kits don't even come with the shit on the datasheets

This wouldn't be necessary if GW didnt make loadouts illegal every 4 months

All this talk about the problems with Infiltrators, "jail" armies, fixing it with sideboarding... Just don't play 40k competitively. Problem solved. It was never meant to be a competitive game anyway. Bring what you like and don't play like a dick.

If they'd put 4 dark lances in my boxes of scourges, I would wysiwyg.

Having started at the tail end of 7th, I hate WYSIWYG. Every new edition, and every points update since has messed with my models. Each weapon used to have its own points cost and for list building it was a PITA. With 10th they have been making it so that we can only bring whats in the box after the codices drop, and I fully expect that my Death Company will be unplayable again because of their loadout.

POV: Vince rants for 20 minutes on how a gladiator isn’t exactly S**T it’s just “fine” at best 👀 Thanks for having me on dude, was cool to record irl

40k with sideboards sounds absolutely miserable. Games are already a struggle to complete within the 3 hour time limit, adding more things to consider during the pre-game/deployment phase of the match isn't going to help that as you rightfully pointed out with deciding warlord traits. Additionally, I believe that this would result in a less healthy meta-game as it would incentivize skew a lot more and 40k isn't like Magic where you can mulligan to Leyline of the Void and your opponent concedes on turn 0 so you can move on to the third game of your match in under 50 minutes.

Sideboards only benefits armies with complete rosters like marines and orks etc. It doesn't benefit armies like world eaters at all.

I'm new to Warhammer 40k as a game. I've been somewhat interested in its lore and setting for over a decade, but I only recently started buying up models. My perspective on WYSIWYG, at present, is that it kind of sucks if only because the kits don't always come with all the options. I've always thought the Adepta Sororitas were cool, so that's where I started buying products. Lucky me, a new codex just dropped. I spent hours learning the rules and theory crafting an army for myself only to find that I can't physically make a unit of Battle Sisters with ONE SINGLE Multi-Melta like the codex says I'm allowed to because there's no Multi-Melta in the box. In fact, I think the only Sororitas product that comes with infantry-sized Multi-Meltas is the Retributor Squad. Speaking of, a squad of Retributors is allowed four Multi-Meltas, according to the codex, but only two come in that box. So, if I want a WYSIWYG army with a unit of Battle Sisters with one MM and a unit of Retributors with four MMs, I need to buy not just the two boxes for those two units but two additional Retributor boxes just to pilfer the guns? An extra 130 USD plus tax for three extra pieces of 4mm plastic? That's some bullshit. I know some of the other armies have upgrade packs with spare guns and stuff in them. The Sororitas don't get that? At this point, I'm planning on designing and 3D printing my own.

This ENTIRE video is why I'm making a One Page Rules Army not a 40k Army

I recently played a small doubles tournament with sideboarding in 40k, on paper it looked like a fun way to adapt to what you were playing into. In reality every game was into a list fully optimised for the pre-announced missions, maybe it would have worked if the missions were the same across the games.

I messed up and built bolt rifles where I was meant to build plasma and decided to just paint them like fancy plasma guns and call it a day.

i feel like when you print out a list with all the info and gear your army and models have to give your opponent, why does wysiwyg matter? you have all the info in your hands

If you are proxying your chainswords as chainfists Power fists as thunder hammers And power swords as heavy bolters its gonna get confusing for the enemy

I'll model for WYSIWYG when people can memorize the difference between non-imperium weaponry. All xeno weaponry looks the same lmao

It's funny you brought up the downfall of multiple weapons options on a until. Aos just recently got this out of the game in this edition. Gutrippers for example had different ranges and rend depending on if you built them with swords or shields. Now it's just one weapon profile for both ..such a great idea

I’m going to proxy in gummy bears and there isn’t a darn thing you can do about it.

I play wysiwyg for ME not for my opponent. I need to know who is my own plasma guy or the sergeant or whatever, or i will forget to activate them. So i stick to whats on my datasheet as close as i can. I frankly pay zero attention to what your models have or do. If im curious i'll ask 'hey does this unit have a sniper?' But i generally cant be bothered to memorize your guys. Just tell me they have missiles or whatever, it's fine.

WYSIWYG is fine as a self imposed rule for your own stuff IMO. Necromunda as a hobby is really fun because you get to go deep on customizing models even to the point of snipping bits off fully painted kits to reflect how that model has changed. BUT as long as you're not in a position where you've got multiple datasheets and you're creating confusion between which unit or model has a special weapon then it's not an issue. Tournaments need to mandate and normalize physical, on paper exchange of lists and unit markings on the table so you literally can't misunderstand which weapon profiles are on the table. then WYSIWYG goes away as a contentious issue. The longer I'm in this hobby the closer and closer it gets to me Only caring that models are on the proper base sizes and roughly the correct height. I just want everyone to have a good time and not stress about "hobbying correctly"

I detest WYSIWYG for the same reason i hate the reserve list. I want everyone to be able to get into my hobbies as absolutely easily as possible. And having to either magnetize or buy whole copies of units to cover the datasheet options is a HUGE barrier to entry.

WYSIWIG shouldn't even need to be a concern. The main problems are overcomplicated rules and loadout issues because of availability of the proper parts.

Regarding WYSIWYG and tournaments I would like to contribute another perspective. If you are someone who isn't very competitive or for whatever reason can't make it out to a bunch of events then the goal of going to a tournament is less about winning and more about having fun seeing friends and appreciating other peoples hobby skills. From that perspective it can be really offputting if you look across the table at a quicky painted meta army full of proxies or substitutions because a grav gun is fifteen more efficient than a plasma pistol or whatever. I put in the work to build and paint my army to a good standard, I spent the time and money getting here I want my opponents to rise to a minimum standard even if I lose.

Hard to justify wysiwyg with gw modeling prices / strategies if you want to play that way you end up needing so many extra models leading to thousands of extra spent on just trying to keep up a list while gw is milking you with data sheet updates and legacing your units to keep you on the treadmill Enjoy your codex the one with less and less lore and rules that are outdated by the time they hit shelves

It's interesting because I was sort of onboard with Mikey until he started the whinging about the alternate Ork model and "optional" equipment and he managed to convince me his opinions are trash and he should kick rocks. GW has painfully shitty rules(WYSIWYG and True LOS among them) to the extent that even though I already have Warhammer armies in boxes I really don't want to play the game with strangers at all. Which means my Warhammer models are more likely to get used as spare Pathfinder minis than they are to ever see a game of Warhammer again.

The two best Warhammer Yappers. Period

Honestly I love Mikey + Vince episodes.

Office looks nice, boss

This is a great video, but for me the WYSIWYG issues come down to a couple of things: 1) GW refusing to put the correct amount of models and weapons/upgrade sprues in boxes, despite allowing people to field for example full units of Death Company with power fist and inferno pistols. You should be able to build the unit of a subset of (5’s and 10’s etc) with all options from the box. Simple. 2) GW moving away from points based weapons/upgrades - only one profile can be superior so it’s obvious which everyone would like to choose in 99% of cases. This also has a feels bad as it means armies lose flavour and difference because you generally are facing the same units kitted out with the top profile over and over again. Didn’t used to happen half as much before when individual items and weapons were itemised. 3) GW should in this day and age allow people to order sprues of whatever they want, considering we used to be able to order individual parts in the post 20 years ago - how are we finding ourselves further behind? Obviously this isn’t being talked about here, the chaps are rightly discussing more HOW it affects the game. It would be interesting to hear their thoughts on WHY it happens/ has happened . And how to resolve it. It is a joke that prices are going through the roof and people are standing across the table from each other arguing about what has what and it’s ruining both sides experience of the game. It is also a massive barrier to entry for people because they are forced to arms race with everyone to have a chance of winning in most cases.

I personally model my stuff WYSIWYG most of the time, but it's primarily because building models and lists are one of my favorite parts of the hobby. Plus then when I play games it's less for me to keep track of.

Thank you @HellstormWargaming for interviewing the other guy. Really appreciated letting his rants go on forever.

it should be clear what is what, WYSIWYG should serve the player and not limit them. If you tell me all your Commisars have plasma pistol and power sword regardless of equipment on the model it is fine. But I find it confusing if somebody has flamers and meltas in on his models and declares the meltas are flamers and the flamer are meltas because he likes it more that way.

The very first army i built was tau when they were brand new, i sculpted close combat weapons and custom power suits for them because i hatwd the kraull or w/e and the suits were too small imo and was told that my beautiful beautiful army was not legal to play in the store because i needed to buy the shitty ugly suits and have official weapons and i decided id never actually play this game, just sculpt and bash better kits for its cool ideas

no one knows what xenos guns look like anyways.

As an AoS player that debate at the end about a wracking ball broke me. We would never have to argue what a unit has like that. It's absurd to argue a unit's loadout when it's free and generally expected just because it's not modeled on the mini. Like if someone complained about the wrecking ball and the TO defended that opponent I would argue both the opponent and TO are being dicks about it. This is why I have problems with the 40k community. They get way too sweaty about things.

I am an advocate for WYSIWYG because I’m stupid and routinely forget what my opponent's substitutions are, but even for me, the wrecking ball argument is actually insane. If it’s free, they have it. Any opponent or event that ever said “well, grav chutes on your Reivers are free… but you didn’t equip them” I’d tell them to shove it and walk out. That’s such a nonsense position to unironically have. There is NO WORLD they would ever not have it in a competition setting. Giant L for Hellstorm Gaming, you seem like a nice fellow but if you HONESTLY believe that you sound miserable to play with.

Great talks! FYI Death Guard take nurglings to forward deploy. Cheers

Super timely comments about side boarding in 40K! GW seems to be trying it out with the new agents ability to swap assassins at the start of the game

I try to play WYSIWYG for my own sake. There so much to remember that I will throughout the game forget my own army’s loadout if it isn’t what i glued on. I play mostly casual, so I trust that my opponent is honest about his loadout. If he’s playing WYSIWYG with anything else than Space Marines, I probably wouldn’t be able to tell anyway!

As a T'au player, what would you suggest is the alternative? Let's say the WE goes first, 20 inches apart, let's say I deply on my far edge, 40 inches away minus base size on something like a Riptide which is ~2 inches. Let's say they take +2 move and charge which is very common. Angron Auto Advance 6, + 2, + 14 = 22 + 12 for the charge, that's a 32 inch threat range. I have a ~6 inch bubble where I can move Mv 10" fucking oval based shooting platform. If angron gets into my back line, the game ends, if exalted get into my backline the game ends. Melee armies are absolutely broken right now, like mental broken. Especially WE just literally don't die. 5+++ on a 4 wound go-through-walls infantry that kill basically any model in the game (I say basically because I *THINK* on average a Great Unclean one can tank them but they kill 1.5 Land Raider Redeemers with AoC by the math alone). So yeah, no, I will never have any regrets move blocking WE. Not that it changes much. You just get 1 turn of activating maybe 1 model into him before you die instead of 0.

I do WYSIWYG but don't play competitive, does that mean I don't have the optimum load out, yes it does, do I care, no I don't. I'm not a try hard player, just want to have fun. Wibble

This episode poses an interesting question, if your models did come to life, which would attack you and which would try and defend you?

The only model in my iron warriors is my Warsmith he is converted from abaddon model with combi bolter and a hammer. Because i want the hammer to have a punch i count it as a powerfist other then that the rest of my army is how you see it. A meltagun is a metagun.

I think WYSIWYG is a double edge sword. A) having models equipped with what they actually are helps so much. Because I have a Space Marine Chaplain (from the Horus Hersey) that I really like, but he is equipped with a plasma pistol, however the 40K model doesn't come with a Plasma pistol. So in games I have messed that up what his war gear is. So I was using Plasma Pistol profile instead of a Bolt Pistol profile, because the model has a Plasma pistol. B) it limits your model unless you go above and beyond. Which I have buddy that took the Hellblasters unit and every model has magnetics on the Gun and the power pack. Because in 9th edition they had 3 different versions of the Plasmagun. I think WYSIWYG should only matter if you have multiple different weapons in one unit. Example the Chaos Terminators they can have 1 Chainfist, 3 Powerfist, and up to 5 accursed weapons. So it does help to distinguish which Terminator has what mailing profile

Would sideboards work if you played 1500 point games with 500 point sideboard? Wibble wobble wysisyg walnuts up my

It’s so dumb bot everyone can afford another box set just to get. Maces for my dark angels for instance or insert anything else I 3 d print and kitbash because of this reason . It’s expensive.

My new CSM army is 0% wysiwyg. Looks a lot like Deathwatch.

So i'm pretty sure "optional" wargear like the truck wrecking ball is still optional because that's the way it's labelled in the kit instructions. At least that the only reason I can think of that a lot of stuff didn't just get baked into the base unit profiles.

My battlesuits wield 1 gun, just pretend it shoots twice, my big Riptide wields a hammer made from a gun, just consider it slams so hard on the ground it has the same effect as a big gun, my other Riptide is wielding 2 big gatlings cause it looks cool. AKA dont care much for wysiwyg anymore.

34:00 the topic

Banger

Wibble……. What about the unfair advantage Xenos armies have because no one knows what their guns look like 😂😂

Wysiwyg so long as you're playing marines and I know what your guns looks like. It's not WYSIWYG for factions like Drukahri where everything looks the fuckin same.

One of my first Wargames was Middle Earth Strategy battles where things are expected to be strictly WYSIWYG....while also not seeling all of the options available it is infuriating and made me hate the concept.

Your sorta wysiwyg AT-ST seems to wibble wobble. I hope the base you put it on will protect it from tipping. Oh and if your making a new base I hear walnut's shells make fore interesting looking rocks.

to me the easy way out of the dilema is wysiwyg required and punished for the top bracket players on the final round(s) so that the people that are really out to compete and think they got a shot to be at let say in the top 1/4 they have to wysiwyg, so that any aiming to seriously compete will have to wysiwyg from the start. While the people that is in for the good times, want to show of their beautiful armies or just want to get the chance to play all weekend dont have to worry about it. It makes it a place where both casual and competitive players can coexist and lets remember that casual players are the majority in the community. Also really that nowadays that points are all the same, wysiwyg doesnt really make that much of a difference and most people have no idea what a certain weapon loadout looks like on armies they dont collect other than maybe on space marines. Personally I only make sure I can tell a part which is which, tell my opponent when presenting my list and trust each other.

TBH outside of Imperium weapons and some Aeldari I can't tell you what is what for all other races despite playing since 3rd ed lol

Wibble wobble wysiwyg thoughts on 3d prints like station forge and others that are inspired by the IP

As a fellow Andoven I’d have to fully agree with u that Andover is a total sh*t hole 😀

"too much move on T1" GW is so afraid of 1 army having something cool, they just give everyone everything

Oh man the pedantics about the wrecking ball being "optional" or not was kinda getting me tilted tbh. I think we all know what Vince meant about how the ball is free so it only makes your unit worse if it goes without.

WYSIWYG was the first thing we dropped from Necromunda games. As long as you're clear about what minis are armed with (and we have the practice of stating out loud without needing prompting), it saves so much money for people. With MoPs though, sticking with it matters, cause there's no automatic honour when playing against a MoP.

Necromunda is great. Very fun

So the big reasons for then the "optional"-ness of Trukks Wreaking Balls probably comes from the instructions for the construction. If a GW told someone when building their kit that it was optional, they dont want to then find out later that it isnt. Also whilst its not a loadout change, the difference in silhouette width for a Trukk with and without a wreaking ball is quite significant. Enough that behind some smaller terrain it could hide without the ball, and with the ball it would be exposed. I've seen Leman Russes not equiped with sponsons for exactly this reason. So the whilst you say the there isnt another option wargear wise, there is a difference gameplay wise

The main thing I have against WYSIWYG is that I don't think us as players should be punished or forced to buy new models when GW decides to change the rules on what you can bring or just straight up deletes a gun type (thinking of Tau recently). I know magnetizing is a thing but there's already a ton of barriers to entry as is for WH we don't really need more that discourage people from playing in competitive events. There are also kits that with WYSIWYG wouldn't be legal to field. One of the Boyz in the updated kit comes with a chainsword. It's not a knife of axe like the other 'choppas' in the kit, but an actual chain sword. Do want to say ty to Mikey for being on the show and bringing some great commentary. Wibble wobble and all that

All my models wibble for walnuts. That's what you'll see from them.

Late to the party but if anything, you should be dropping a couple of characters to get more DC. Maybe swap a character & your Ballistus for another Lancer

WYSIWYG is honestly a relic of the past with all the changes made to equipment. Even GW is leaning into it with condense comib weapons, nemsis weapons, etc. The biggest fear at tournments (other than getting dicks) from new players is WYSIWYG, which 99% of tournament players give no shits about.

I have a question for Mikey on the off chance he reads this. What's your thoughts on holstered pistols? Are they any pistol or no pistol

Anyone else click this just to find out what WYSIWYG stood for?

Delivery was bad lol

WYSIWYG because in a miniatures wargame the miniatures matter. Kills my immersion in a game when half the stuff is proxies. It's not a problem for say very similar looking guns or similar but when the model has a powerfist and you're telling me it has a sword instead (or even worse, a rifle) then I know you're not really bothered about having a fun, immersive game and you just want to win.

WYSIWYG is a must for me, to a degree. Or at least, a standard to aspire to. It's less about the rules/confusion side of things, and more about presentation. Tabletop Games are all about immersion and presentation, and WYSIWYG is part of that, part of making the game feel "real". If your weapon option isn't the "optimal" choice, too bad. It'll be optimal in a couple of months/editions/years. That's not what the game is about. If I were playing someone new or someone that was trying something out, sure, not being WYSIWHYG is fine. But against a regular opponent? Yeah mate, we're here to make the universe come alive and take part in it, make that chainsword a power fist if you want to run it.

Also this hellstorm gaming guy - penalizing for las cannon is insane, so what? most non-marine players don't even know the difference.

i don't really understand what's being discussed. but this sort of deep lvl nerd shooting the shit. is universal. BUT regarding WYSIWYG As a world eater's player. was a real kick in the dick to go from 9th to 9th with a codex, to 10th. and something like 80-90% of my army was worthless. As all my zerkers were built for dual wield(very few had any guns on them) and like my drills, leviathan dreads, raptors. even my cultists (that are now on a different base size of jakhals) dark apostle, exalted champ... all those models i'd bought, built, painted. now... worthless. And I needed to buy/build/paint new zerkers. It's taken me nearly to now just to have my army playable at 2k pts.

Playing non wysiwyg on a regular basis is both sweaty af and cowardly at the same time. If you're brand new, I get it, but if you've been playing more than 1 edition and still can't figure out magnets and green stuff, you're just a lazy fuck. It's bad enough keeping track of what's what when it's accurately modeled. Your lack of effort degrades the experience for yourself and the opponent. For the handful of kits that don't include the exact meta loadout stuff you want like scourges, that's what 3d prints and kitbashing are there for. Warhammer players in shambles after discovering modeling is part of their hobby/game.

If you think wysiwyg is crap, you should play with pepsi caps instead of models. What a horrific competitive player thinking

Magnets. The answer is magnets 🧲 Edit: I’ve been playing since 2nd edition and 7th was the last half decent edition of 40K. 3rd-6th is peak 40K imo.