In this video Paul tests various brands of ammo in .357 caliber and .38 special caliber in various guns, for accuracy. At 6:34 paul misidentified the snub nose. He said it was a GP100, it's actually an SP101.
When I become perfect then I will expect that out of others. You are are an excellent presenter. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us.
I've watched 1000's of hours of gun videos. This is TRULY AMAZING. Nobody has done anything like this. Everyone share this guys channel. This is the most under rated gun channel on youtube.
Most people go for flash over substance, pass on videos longer than 5' and don't like watching someone talk. I attribute this to crappy schools and kids raised by TVs and video games with chronic ADD. Another thing is that Paul is not a whore: his channel is not geared for max views or monetized.
@FlamQ Dbltap channels like forgotten weapons are also in that top 3 but they don't really directly compete you know? So is a history channel 'higher ranked' than a practical use channel? ..you be the judge.
Interesting video, and it sure is nice to see someone with enough self confidence to admit he pulled a shot or two, instead of blaming the gun or ammo.
Great video. Thanks for this. I've long held that velocity won't affect POI (at normal handgun distances) whereas bullet mass will, and my own range experiments with .357/.38 bear this out as well. Solving the equation for conservation of momentum clearly shows that velocity drops out of the equation, and the distance the muzzle moves while the bullet's still in the barrel depends only on the mass of the ejecta (bullet & powder), the mass of the gun, and the barrel length. "Dwell time" is a popular internet myth, but it's a red herring because while the slower bullet may spend more time in the barrel (and the muzzle spends more time rising as a result) the velocity of the muzzle rise is less. So, for the same bullet mass, the muzzle rises the same net distance, regardless of bullet velocity.
Definitely noticed my 38's hitting higher than .357's as well, and came to the same theory about muzzle rise vs. speed. Nice to see someone else talk about it.
I think that there was another important take away. If you have a gun like this that can run different kinds of ammo, you need to experiment as to which one is best for you. If you target practice with 38 special and carry 357 you will want the ammo that shoots best for you AND that has the closest point of aim to each other to maximize your practice.
Most objective gun channel on youtube. My takeaway: there are lots of factors to take into account, don't get fixated on just one of them- no matter how logical it seems- at the expense of the others. The stuff you AREN'T paying attention to probably has more influence, so keep experimenting until you get a complete picture. There's a philosophical lesson in there somewhere too.
Also notice that for hunting or defense purposes the difference was negligible .. for target scoring .. it would matter to an Olympian but not to too many others. Olympians will reload all of their cartridges to be consistent on caliber, brass, primer, powder and bullet type and weight [and this may be why] The rest of us just have a little different score. Harrell you do a great job ... both explaining AND demonstrating.
As usual another great video! I really look forward to every new video you upload to RU-vid! You have answered so many questions and dispelled so many myths with your videos! You have been such a huge asset to the gun community and I thank you for all you do!
When I started reloading, about 55 years ago, I had a nice 6" Colt 38 special and a bunch of bullet molds, from 77 to 200 grains. The heavier the bullet, the higher it shoots. Heavier bullets recoil more AND spend more time in the barrel. And, by the way, I grew up to be a physicist!
I thought that the opposite and equal reaction only occurs when the system actually splits into two parts. So would the 'push' be coming from the longer projectile spending more rime exiting the crown and not from it moving down the barrel? When the bullet is in the barrel it's part of the one system and is simply redistributing weight, and the barrel would actually tilt down if the bullet was just moving from the back of the barrel to the front without exiting (ignoring pressures)
I discovered this channel yesterday, and I'm glad I did. So many of the gun channels have gotten cheesy. It's nice to watch a professional approach. Keep it up.
Paul, love the channel. The ammo doesn't hit in another spot do to the recoil. As the bullet is forced through the rifling down the barrel it is having a spin imparted on it. That does not only affect the bullet but also the barrel. This brings us to the subject of barrel harmonics. The barrel is actually whipping and contorting even though you can not see it. As you change things as bullet weight(contact surface), or velocity(dwell time in barrel) you change the point at which the bullet is released, changing point of impact. I think the SP-101 saw less of a difference due to its shorter(stiffer). Barrel harmonics is the reason handloaders chase the perfect loading even if they don't know the science behind it.
I thought I was alone on this issue. I also noticed at 25 yard with my sp 101 that non +p .38 special Ammo would hit high with a .357 mag zero. Couldn’t find any logic to this but your theory makes more sense than anything I came up with lol. Great video.
Excellent demonstration, Paul. I have a bad habit of adjusting my sights, way too often it seems. Seems like I need to just stay with one type of ammo. Problem solved! Thx, Paul.
That phenomenon you were talking about is called Dwell time or Barrel dwell time. I have successfully employed this understanding to bring POI up by loading heavier bullets slower to correct POi on guns with fixed sights.
Next to Hickok45 you are the man ! Hasn't been a vid you have made that I did not hit like. You answer the questions I have always wondered about and here you are going and answering those questions in a very scientific and logical manner. Thank You. You and Hickok should get together and do a vid.
now I gotta say in my case the results were "interesting" I have a 4" Taurus 66 in .357. The point of aim being point of impact was with .38 158 gr. and .357 158 gr. shot a little lower. Now 125 gr. .357 is a lot lower for some reason. I have never adjusted the sights yet but just giving my take on my experience with this.
Of course, there is Paul answering the real questions for a real situations! Great job, Paul, I like your channel very much and follow it closely! P.S. Out of the 4.2" barrel of my GP-100, the .38 Spec indeed shoots a bit higher (2 cm, under an inch) than .357 mag at 10 meters (11 yards). Out of the 20" barrel of my Henry Big Boy Steel, the 38 Spec shoots around 8-10 cm (3-4 inches) higher than .357 mag at 25 meters (27 yards). I don't have longer shooting distances to measure right now (I shoot at indoor range), but I think at 50 meters (55 yards), both cartriges should hit point of aim and above 50 meters, the .38 will start hitting low and the .357 high. Paul, what do you think about that?
Interesting information, but at the average distance of a gun fight being only 7 yards how far off can it really be? It appeared all your hits were within acceptable tollarances for accuracy.
Anytime you use different ammo it's going to change impact, this is why we should always practice with the ammo we carry and if we change ammo we should fire some of it to see how it works. That being said, in the real world a little bit of a different impact at close range is not going to make a lot of difference because most self defense shootings take place at very close range. Great video.
OK now I feel better. I sighted my Ruger Super Blackhawk for dead-on at 15 yards with .44 Special ammo (HSM Cowboy Action .44 Special 240 grain lead semi-wadcutter bullets); then tried American Eagle .44 Magnum 240 grain semi-jacketed hollow points at the same distance, same point of aim. Groups were about 6" lower than the .44 Specials. I though what the heck is going on then this video validated what others have told me that it is common for higher velocity loads to shoot to different POI out of the same handgun vs. lower velocity loads, given the same projectile weight. Since I have no plans to hunt with my Ruger, I'll keep it sighted for .44 Special ammo and just remember to hold a bit high when shooting Magnums. Good informative video.
30-some years ago I did a similar test using my Redhawk .44 running 2 weights of Mag loads against 246 LRN Specials. Have forgotten the details but it taught me to sight in and stick to strictly one load with that 7.5" revolver. This was a very nice refresher! Wondering if dramatically longer barrels at 25yds would influence any elevation differences.
I own a Freedom Arms, Model 83, Premier Grade, 10 inch barrel, .454 Casull 5 shot revolver with a .45 Colt cylinder and a .45 Auto cylinder. The folks at Freedom Arms also sent me a taller front sight to use when I used the slower .45 Colt and .45 Auto ammunition. I guess that for spending over $3,000 on the world's finest made revolver, they wanted me to be able to be accurate with the slower ammo. Of course, you could always call and ask them why they would waste their money on sending me a taller front sight when, according to you, it was totally unnecessary. I also own a Ruger Super Blackhawk, 10.5 inch barrel, 44 Magnum. They didn't send me a taller front sight for use with .44 Special ammo but they should have. Maybe you should have done your tests at a distance of 25 yards where most people sight in a revolver with iron sights. You would have had different results.
I have done the same test as you with thousands and thousands of rounds. They were all hand loads using 2400 power and 158gr JHP in the 357. I was using Unique powder with SWC in the .38 spec. I was finding that the .38 spec. would shoot high and right when zeroed with .357 and conversely when zeroed in using the .38 spec., the .357 would shoot low and left. These results were with several thousand rounds. I would burn up 400+ rounds on a weekend and then spend the week reloading in prep for the next weekend.
Just started watching your channel and I must say I am impressed. You fact based conclusions and straight forward advice are what all the other tacti-cool channels should take notice of. You 9mm vs 40 video would have those channels calling for you to be turned off,all they do is sing praises of 9mm. I enjoy all firearms and like you I just enjoy shooting. Keep up the fair and honest work good sir.
Paul Harrell - I like and subscribed to your channel. I appreciate your knowledge, your skill, your lack of obvious ego (I say obvious because I don't see any ego, not to say it isn't there I just don't see one) and an objective humility (if there is such a thing). You don't bash the viewer over the head with your opinions. Rather you are very clear about your opinions being your own and not gospel. It's refreshing. Thank you.
Paul, on the SP-101 ,We can do a trigger job and a full internal polish and spring change. Easily change out the grip, And at least Ruger lets you change the front sight with just a roll pin, S&W and other brands...Well just forget about That..Maybe then you would love the Sp-101..I know i love mine now!..
As I learned from reading Six Guns by E. Keith - To raise point of impact with a handgun, increase bullet weight. A handy situation for the field can be employed here. For short range applications have a light bullet load shoot right to the sights close range ( look out Rabbits & squirrels at 20 yards) but then have a powerful heavy bullet load for shooting at range (deer, antelope, bear) as it will likely shoot close to the sights at 100+ yards. In my .45LC for example I load a little 230gr rabbit bullet with a midrange charge of Red Dot. But the deer load sports a heavy loaded 315gr that still hits a little high at 100 yards.
I can do trigger jobs on the Ruger SP101. You can too. Lapping compound from Brownells and double action only dry fire make a world of difference. A new set of wolf reduced power springs also make an amazing difference. If you're cheap fine sand and petroleum jelly make good lapping compound for this. You can then cut half a turn off the trigger return spring and check pull after lapping. Cut again in ¼ turn increments, up to a whole turn. It's vital not to make this spring too light or the slightest bump will cause the gun to go off in single action. A little cutting goes a very long way. It's important to test after cutting by cocking the cleared revolver and whacking it all over including the hammer (not the trigger, obviously) with a thumb width stick or dowel. The hammer should not fall (you should also do this test before starting work too 😂). If it does fall, spring's to light for your sear; you'll have to add a piece of round stock spacer to increase spring preload and retest. You can then file the spacer, measuring it each time, until it fails again. You then make another spacer using your last good measurement. This is your optimal trigger return spring pressure. Reducing your hammer spring much can lead to inconsistent ignition, but reducing it eases trigger pull and sear loading. This allows for a lighter trigger return spring, hence the reason the reduced power spring kit has a matched set of reduced power springs for both hammer and trigger. Don't be cheap.
When I was listening to the explanation at the beginning of the video, I started to think that the opposite would be true. The .357 Magnum being more powerful than the .38 Special +P would have more recoil so if the revolver is sighted in for .357 then the .38 would shoot lower since there is less recoil and also way lower FPS. This reasoning may even partially add to the explanation of bullet drop at longer distances though I agree it's mostly due to slower FPS. I'd like to see this test done again with a bit closer and longer distance like say at 7 yards and 21 yards with more comfortable to shoot .357 Magnum revolvers Paul likes.
What makes sense to me is that the lesser recoil of the .38 special round offsets the slower velocity, so the barrel rises more slowly as the slower round travels down and out of the barrel = same point of impact.
Great video! Even changing brands of the same caliber can move your hits. That's why you practice with your carry ammo! That's why guys who reload spend time, try different projectiles, powders and measurements to develop the perfect bullet for a particular gun. The perfect round for your gun might group like bird shot in mine. Barrel rifling, length, maintenance. There are so many things that effect your hits. AK's for instance. If your AK isn't grouping well, let it get dirty, build up some carbon in there, it will shoot better.
Another excellent video. Thankful for the off-screen talent helping it come together. Wonder what the decibel differences were? In an indoor emergency situation a person may not have time to apply hearing protection.
I've seen a similar rest done using .45 Colt and bullet weights from 185 to 340 grains. Power level had an affect but biggest affect was from bullet weight. Heavy bullets typically do print higher.
I'm no professional but I shoot revolvers. Using a bench rest shoot a 3/8 inch dot at 15 yards. Same bullet, brass and powder only change gr of powder. Faster load will always hit lower. At 50 yards shooting golf balls with good bench rest point of impact will be appropriately 3 inches lower for max load in 357 compared to previous load 1/2 gr less powder. Comments in this video give 100 different reasons. Let someone else stagger different loads so grip an anticipation do not effect results. My meat targets is squirrel heads up to deer. Still aiming for target the the size of squirrel head when shooting deer. Love your videos.
I just bought my first revolver last week, a Ruger GP100 7-shot with 4" barrel. I had five ammo types to choose from. 38 Special FMJ, 38 Special +P hollow points, 38 Special wadcutters, 357 FMJ and 357 Magnum hollow points. I can put all five pretty much where I want them to go in single action. In double action I was fortunate to hit the paper at all. I have got a LOOOONG way to go in DA. SA I am in Paul Harrell mode (well, not exactly, but you understand my point) lol
I have the same results with my SP 101 shooting 125gr. The magnums are Remington half jackets (my carry load) and the 38's are coated, hard cast +P's. Also, I had the same results with my 9mm. 124gr +p shoots dead on and 115's have a tendancy to shoot low, 147's shoot high. Bullet weight has more to do with your zero than anything else.... At least at closer ranges.
That would make sense, as the bullet is in the barrel longer building inertia but I would think the extra weight would offset that effect. Interesting question 🤔
Paul apologizes that a particular gun doesn't fit his hand comfortably and that he may not be able to shoot it as well as another, then he proceeds to put 13 out of 15 shots into the 9 or 10 ring from 15 yards. The other two shots are an 8 and a 7, with the 7 coming on the very last shot of the session as fatigue is setting in. And he's not using full-sized targets, so every one of these shots would be in the vitals on a normal assailant unless the guy was skinny as a rail. Paul has got to be the most modest person putting out gun videos on the entire internet.
Thanks. Good demo. I have that same SP101. Wasn't crazy about it until I changed the front sight and installed a Wolf spring kit. $40 later, much better.
I have already watched most of his videos but didn't add comments, only hit the "like" icon. He said in a previous video he won't benefit unless a comment is made. Even if it just says "Hello".....I'm re-watching them all. Guess he's pretty good IMO!!!!! Thanks for the video's!!!!!
Very good video. Try the same thing with the 125 grain ammo in both .357 mag. and .38 spcl. Then do another target with the same brand and 158 grain ammo. I reload a lot, quit using lite bullets in everything as personnel preference, but have noticed a heavier bullet will strike higher on target and carry much farther. This is more noticeable in rifles than handguns, but it still happens.
I like your channel because you do a lot of the same test my friend and I do when we go shoot. I tell people every brand of ammo and even different lot numbers of the same will shoot a little different. My buddy learned that the hard way last huntin season and missed a pig. Another thing I like to do is sight my scope then ride around with the rifle in the gun rack for a week or so to see if the scope holds. But yeah, different brands of pistol ammo, even same weight bullet, will shoot high or low or not group well in one gun but group tight in another.
I learn alot and have improved in my consistancy by studying Pauls stance body position and grip... Yes, different bullet wights and loads do affect point of impact. That has long been established.
I shot a .44 magnum load containing Lyman 429421at around 1000 fps at 25 yards and then switched to the same bullet over a full charge of 2400. The mid range load required the rear sight of my 6” 629 to be all the way down, the 2400, almost all the way up. Point of impact difference was close to a foot.
I very much enjoy your videos and have recommended them to shooter friends of mine. I have been an avid reloader since the 1970s and tried this experiment myself. I had less variables as I could use the exact same Bullet at different velocities. All things being equal I can say with absolute confidence that the 38 Special will shoot higher than 357.
Excellent conclusion. Bottom line is practice with the ammo you will use for personal defense. It seems to me the original assumption about .38 spcl shooting higher ignores the greater recoil of the .357 magnum.
As Elmer Keith pointed out so long ago, expect heavy bullets to hit high and (of course) lighter bullets to strike lower. This gives the man in the field the ability to have his handgun sighted to both long and short range by changing ammo. I do this with my Ruger Sec-6 using 158gr bullets in 357 for range and 115gr 38spl for close range varminting. In Ruger Bisley .45LC use 315gr for range and 250gr for close in.
You're on track. Elmer did a LOT of work with the .44 Special. In his book SIXGUNS he goes into some non-scientific jargon about his conclusions with that cartridge and the patterning experienced with standard versus heavy handloads. Much of his 'experimentation' was at 100 or more yards shooting at objects and various critters over a few decades. Great book.
I've trained with .38 special in our department for five years before finallllly switching to 9mm. Anyway .38 always shot all over the place and it really became a guessing game on the impact of each revolver from long years of use. Some revolvers hit dead center with specials and others you had to aim at the bottom torso of the target at 25 yards to hit center. It really came down to when at the range, find your zero otherwise you failed the course. Oh and pro tip for anyone buying training ammo for .38 special, avoid blazer. Blazer had the most fail to fires and squib loads I've ever seen. One officer shot so many squibs that all six were in the barrel! We saw'ed that one in half and put it on display. Our revolvers were some cheap 1990s Ruger revolvers similar to the GP100. For the life of me I can't remember the model name nor find any pictures of them. But the reason the revolvers were finally traded out was because Ruger no longer made parts for them. lol Then we switched to glocks and low and behold everyone began shooting better without eight pound triggers and off center of mass sights. Then a whole new mess of problems began. But that is for another day and another discussion. Awesome video as always Paul! =)
using logic and the law of equal and opposite reactions, even if the lesser amount of time spent in the barrel for the .357 is what lowers point of aim, the .38 couldn't be argued to hit higher because it spends more time in the recoiling barrel because it also would never raise the barrel as much since it isn't producing as much recoil. This would almost certainly neutralize any change in point of impact because of barrel travel time, and the proportional gun weight being more for the .38 than the .357 would perhaps lead to a net lowering of point of impact if we use this barrel travel time and recoil arc factor as the deciding one, which we do not know it even is. Great video, love your channel.
Wow. Yesterday I was at the range shooting my GP100 5" but with .38 special and all my shots were consistently high and I had to adjust downward. I thought the sights were off. This video explains a lot. Since the premise is that the .38 special bullet spends more time in the barrel the effect would be more pronounced in a longer-barreled gun. For this reason I don't think the 2.5" gun used in the second example is as relevant as the longer gun.
The cartridge,gun combination I've seen a huge difference in is my old webley mk6 in 45ar. When I use 45acp in moon clips (230 gr. 830 fps) the revolver shoots way below point of impact. Shooting the 45 auto rim cartridge (250 gr at 720 fps) puts the gun on target. In olden days with the single action colt with fixed sights, you found a load that worked with the sights sometimes filing the front sight or bending it one way or another to suit your favorite load.
Always love the videos on this channel. Except that recoil doesn't affect accuracy or bullet trajectory, since the bullet has left the barrel a nano-second before any movement of the pistol takes place.
I have a Ruger Blackhawk with a ten inch barrel in 357 Maximum. When I first got it 158gr and 180gr loads hit 8-12 inches high at roughly 80-90 yards and my sight had no more adjustment. Then I fired some 38 spl from the same gun and they hit the same place.
Back in the early days of 38+p, it was said that with fixed sight revolvers, many LE officers experienced a POI 6-8" lower with the Win 110 gr ("Treasury" load) or the Super Vel, which was similar. That seems like a lot, but maybe it happened. I know my fixed sight guns are pretty much right on with 158's, whether +p or not (as they should be). J frame snubbies tend to hit a bit low with lighter bullet weight +p loads, like the famous 135 gr Gold Dot short barrel load. Or at least mine do. Always test your specific carry ammo thoroughly in your intended carry gun
The basic physics of momentum would suggest that throwing a larger bullet is going to kick back more (for the same velocity). However, on top of that the velocity has reduced: 158 gr 38 is going to have more barrel time than 125gr +P. But the basic moral of the story is forget about the text books (unless they're targets) - shooting tells you the facts.
Hey Paul I’m a former 11B myself. I find that the 38’s in my 686 to be dead on where my 357’s of the same bullet weight to shoot about 6” higher. This is from a bench with my hands pressed into a soft sandbag.
Back about 42 years ago (darn, I feel old) when I was testing a lot of different .38 and .357 handloads at 50 feet, I concluded barrel time meant more than anything else. I could really see the difference with my 8-3/8" Model 27 S&W. Interestingly, my 6-1/2" Ruger Blackhawk would put almost all loads within a 3" circle.
I believe barrel friction forces the barrel slightly downwards. I know that is what keeps 1911s locked up until the bullet leaves the barrel. I think high velocity, stickier bullets pull it down further than slow, slick bullets. I noticed some 357 142 gr. FMJ-TC Fiocchi hit noticeably lower than the soft lead 158 gr. 38s and 357s, and just about everything else I'd been shooting before that day.
From a scientific or engineering point of view, I think the key concept is the momentum of the bullet + burned powder charge. The greater the momentum as the bullet + burned powder leaves the muzzle the greater the muzzle flip, which will cause the bullet to hit high. Of course, most of the muzzle flip occurs after the bullet has left the barrel and won't affect the point of impact. However, part of the muzzle flip occurs before the bullet leaves the barrel, and that will affect the point of impact.
The higher impact of the bullet is more a aspect of bullet weight than velocity, but for the same reason. Heavier bullets are in the barrel longer during muzzle rise.
I have a 357 with fixed sights so I just found three loads of 38 special that shoot well out of it and found two loads of 357 magnum carry loads that shoot really well.
A Ransom Rest would be more definitive. Unfortunately, they cost about as much as a new pistol! Be well, Paul. I see your channel is growing nicely. Congrats!
