Please find the time to listen to the first 30 minutes - some good stuff buried in my first cup of coffee ramblings. For more info, Subscribe to this channel, join us at PsionicAudio, or email us at info@psionicaudio.com.
Woden all day every day for me. A very interesting and thought provoking video. The first 30min. should be an essential watch for anybody that loves to nerd out on this stuff.
This is wonderful. As the proud and blessed steward of a '60 /4 with Haddons and a '63 with Albions, and briefly owned a '63 with Wodens, this is very consistent with my experience. I enjoyed the Woden equipped amp just as much, I just traded it for a lovely Les Paul. Anyway, I'm very glad that there seems to be a growing community of nerds that are hip to these subtleties as apposed to the "if *I* can't measure it with (my very limited equipment and knowledge bank and/or I'm actually just waxing theoretical) then it doesn't exist" crowd. To be clear, I'm NOT saying there isn't a scientific explanation... I'm just saying that musicians have known this stuff imperially since probably always. It's cool to hear a blind A-B test confirming what we've known imperially all along.
Glad the Woden has a clean bill of health. I preferred it. Looks as if the lucky owner will have two flavors. One with each tranny and an A/B/Y pedal he can switch or blend them if so desired. Great 3-part series of tests/explanations along the way.
Both are phenomenal! Based on my liking from the previous videos, Albion for me :) Awesome comparison and the insights are gold. Thank you so much Lyle!
Great comparison and interesting educational videos Lyle. Yeah, it certainly makes me smile when I read peoples overly radical opinions of sounds that are virtually identical, not just here but throughout similar comparison videos on youtube land.
The Wodens have the magical fats of the haddons with nice chime highs. I preferred the woden in all 3 videos. The woden is what i hear as the classic sound of a vox. Of course I'd love to hear you play the same stuff through a haddon, radio spare, and a parmeko!
Great videos you make. I’ve learned a lot. I still like t1 the way you have the controls set. Don’t know where can any of them go tonally speaking by turning knobs but, seems to me t1 has a wider frequency response range. I guess you can make t1 sound like t2 cutting highs and lows but not sure you can make t2 sound like t1 adding if possible. T1 harmonic content is greater, there is like more magic, seems to be more responsive. Anyways both sound good but I would choose t1.
Thanks big time for going through the trouble of setting this up and sharing. I've been interested in this specific comparison in SAME AMP for years. I preferred the Albion - smoother and more together sounding to my ears.
There are so many factors of tone and end-product perception in this gem. So many things I wish I could convey to guitarists that refuse to learn how to record themselves properly or at least learn about the process and the frequency spectrum their instrument sits in. Great video as always.
I'm an old guy with blown out ears. To compensate, I'm using Schiit Audio DAC and electronics with fairly nice, flat AKG phones, just to get that out of the way. It was easy for me to hear the differences between two candidates. I preferred the Albion in the first video because the Woden sounded confused and busy, and I'm not a fan of the flat third at all. This video didn't change my mind on what I would want in MY '63 (fat chance!) but I could see the appeal of the Woden, and it really would be cool to have both. Good stuff!! I can't wait to see how your client feels about it.
Fantastic vid. Sounded the same to me. Sg sounded fantastic. So glad u talked about recording and what we hear with our ears. So many amps I’ve boughten cuz I cranked em in the amp room at the shop and was in heaven. Sold many of them later. Also we always saw said amp needs to be at like 10 o’clock on the master volume for it to really shine. Although I’m sure that is true I’m also think that sweet spot is the volume that is the sweet spot to our ears. Everything comes alive. Also sm57 on the cone is nasty sounding and similar sound I hear when the amp is in a amp stand at an angle pointing at my head. Sounds terrible. I wish more people knew these things I mentioned.. And finally I think a new sound is refreshing so we are easily convinced this new amp or distortion pedal is the best ever. But really it’s just a new sound that is just different than what we normally heat. Personally in the end I almost always come back to “my sound” which is a hundreds of dollars later xD I digress. Killer vid as always.
Thank you for that dissertation and demo. Ya know, I'd probably be tickled to death with either way that amp comes out. That was just a great 'rock' tone you were getting with either transformer and any of those guitars. Different flavors, all good. Thanks again.
If we were to listen to an orchestra broken down into sectional rehearsals of a piece, we likely wouldn’t recognize the piece listening to each section rehearse separately. Only when the orchestra is reunited, playing the piece as a whole do we come to recognize it. Thus the resulting magic (or chaos) of the combined drums and guitar on “Heartbreaker,” and for that matter, the entire human, component, and settings chain from guitar/guitar pickup to our ears. I really enjoy your nerdy technical videos.
Hi, Lyle, your description of output transformer characteristics was very informative. I build amps and have done some output transformer comparisons myself. I bought a Blues Deluxe output transformer, a New Sensor unit, a Heyboer from Weber and a Weber import that appeared to be a clone of the Heyboer. Without destructive testing I checked the parameters that I could measure. I first measured the turns ratio using the AC into the output winding and measured at the input. They all were very close to being the same 4K to 8 ohm setup. Then i did a simple resistance measurement of the windings. I like the Heyboer best to my ears and selected them to use in my amps, and liked the New Sensor the least. The Heyboer has the lowest resistance of the windings (and was the same as the Weber) and while it gave the same turns ratio it likely use less wire to achieve the same ratio. The New Sensor had the highest resistance in the windings and it wasn't as clear. The difference in the transformers is real as you have demonstrated!
I like the Albion more, but also would live happy with either one! Lol neither are bad in any way to me. I just like the Albion with 8ohm load because it’s more what I’m looking for in tone. The Woden was slightly brighter, which isn’t bad, but I primarily play bright guitars and the Albion would fit perfectly.
Thanks for the info and perspective Lyle! The amp sounds great, and I felt you could really hear the differences in sound between the 2 transformers. I think I prefer the Albion personally, would love to hear both amps back to back with their respective transformers. I was wondering if you had any insight as to the difference one may experience using 6L6 tubes in a Deluxe Reverb - particularly how the transformer would react to the change in output tubes. My Deluxe has all Mercury iron, and I was kind of forced to switch to 6L6 tubes after constantly burning screen resistors and frying 6V6 tubes. No issues since the change but I notice a big change in sound and feel, can’t quite describe the changes though. I do hope I can get the 6v6s to work reliably some day.
This was a great deep dive. My initial reaction was to go for transformer 1. Speaking only for myself, this my usual choice (mistake?) in anything guitar or amp related. I know now after years of playing, that the transformer one sound would not work for me and I would be trying to adjust the amp to sound like transformer two somehow.
As one person commented they both sound good . As a preference I prefer transformer #1 ,the Wooden . Why ? I'll need to listen again with head phones as you suggested .
Actually I was relieved when you did the reveal. I was afraid you were going to say that you actually only used one transformer and made a tiny change by using a thinner pick vs a thicker pick. :-D
I second your suggestion that the differences might be due to (slightly?) different winding ratios (resulting in different reflected impedances). A pair of EL84's in push-pull is supposed to be matched with an 8K load according to the spec sheets, and a quad of EL84s is supposed to be matched with a 4K load. I read that early VOX AC15s used 8K transformers but later switched to 6.3K. I don't know why, as it would reduce power and affect tonality (making for a slightly more distorted sound, or cleaner, I can't remember which). I wonder if some of the AC30s transformers had different winding ratios too, resulting in either higher or lower reflected impedances. Of course, since both of these transformers are "period correct" I would expect them to be close to the same, but you never know. I would measure them out of curiosity.
@@greyalien3235 I’ve built a lot of tube amps and have used a wide variety of iron. From old 50’s and 60’s organ and PA amp transformers to brand new Mercury transformers. None of them are exactly the same, even if they’re the same brand/model/specs/date. Of course newer, CNC wound iron is a lot more consistent. I think the owner of this ‘63 AC30 got very lucky with this Woden. It’s the type of thing people pay a lot of money trying to track down for that extra 1% of “Mojo”.
@@matthewf1979 I agree, but I'll say I have yet to hear a bad Woden AC30 and even then I would never blame a output transformer as being a source of "bad sound" . The owner is swapping the Woden out from my understanding which is something I would not bother with. It wasn't unusual to get a different brand OT, PT, and Choke in these amps but i guess they want more consistency.
Very interesting information about output transformers, if you have the opportunity it was great to find out exactly how they differ. Externally, they are identical. I wonder what kind of iron in these versions. How winding is made. Does the engineer who designed the output transformers have a RU-vid channel?
I should probably just keep this to myself, but it's hard for me to truly judge with this mic setup. Using just a close mic is too harsh sounding. I realize why, but it makes it more difficult to judge. Also, I think I'm hearing 22uF cathode bypass caps, which always sound muddy to me unless the bass control is turned way down. I hate 22uF bypass caps. Go bigger (sometimes) for clean - go smaller for distortion, but I prefer something between .68 and 2uF (sometimes 3).
I prefered trans 1 (Woden) with the LP, and the Albion with the Strat. EL84 vs. 6V6 aside, is it possible the nfb in Fenders evens out the high-end response? I once did a quick experiment with a Carvin Nomad 50. PCB layout aside, the Nomad's components are first rate, including the transformers. 8-Ohm cab, four EL-84's, fixed bias with nfb. I much prefered using only two EL84s and moving the speaker impedance selector switch from 8 ohms to 4. This should reflect the same primary impedance to the tubes, and sounded great. (Note: a stock Nomad does not sound great. I made other tweaks, all with tradeoffs.) A 100% mismatch with two tubes on the 8-Ohm setting was "virtually indistinguishable" -- to me -- from the matched setting. But 200% mismatch on the 16-Ohm setting -- reflecting only quarter the design impedance back on the tubes -- was *very* noticeable, with marked loss of power and high end, just as Lyle describes.
The NFB plays a role, but if you lift it in a Twin the amp doesnt get mega bright. It's all part of a big correlated system. Sounds like you already know that. ;)
i'd guess the differences are largely in a)core metallurgy differences, and b) winding geometry/pattern differences, probably in that order, assuming the turns ratio and amount/gauge of wire is the same.
Although my question is about output transformers, I have a slightly off the track question. Back in the good old days of 1989 my band was recording our demo in the studio here in Florida. I had the chance to use an old Marshall “plexi” for a bit. The speaker cabinets were off in an isolation soundproof room and the amp which was apparently an early Lee Jackson, slightly modded amp was in the control room where I played. Anyhow, you could barely even hear the cabinets in the isolation room but when I took my headphones off and was playing I could hear my playing coming from the head through the output transformer. Keep in mind the amp was dimed volume-wise. The engineer said that was normal. I wasn’t worried because it wasn’t my amp but I was wondering if that is a normal occurrence that you could hear the guitar buzzing the sound of the guitar on the output transformer like a tiny metal speaker?
@@chrisdelacerda4719 Thanks! I’ll have to seek that video out. Love Pete’s playing. And he’s a self described guitar geek. Gotta respect that! :EDIT: Whoa! I just looked up that video real quick. I saw that video before and even commented on power amp “distortion” and volume. But I didn’t watch far enough into the video to see that part. That is EXACTLY what I experienced with the plexi I played in the studio. Very cool. Thanks for pointing me back to that video so I could finish watching it. That would have answered my question right off the bat. But, Lyle did as well. 👍🏻
@@PsionicAudio Thanks Lyle. I’ve always wondered about it since that happened. I didn’t know if we were damaging the amp, if there was something wrong with it or if it was a common occurrence that I never noticed because I never had a head isolated from the cabinet like that before. Anyway, awesome and informative video as usual. Thanks!
#1 on yesterday's video seemed like it could be a little rowdy. Not necessarily a bad thing but probably not something one wants as a permanent feature on their several thousand dollar vintage unicorn. Today though, 1st sound clip from #1 was, "oh, that's Brian May." #2 sounds really nice too and throaty, but, Brian May.
Woden. No battle - this is my preference and my explanation I think is fairly concise and real world reasonable: same reasons as yesterday, sorry. Albion ADSR is more linear as it decays, which = "solid state" to my tastes. Maybe better for a primarily rhythm guitar guy that wants every beat of a chord to sound the same, but i prefer hearing the balance low>high shuffle, and the top harmonic to be more variable and not have the same decay rate as the "body" below it. I'd guess the Albion is louder, but the Woden more potentially expressive.
Understanding reflected impedance. How does DC resistance affect sound. For example how does a 8400-ohm/8 ohm Hammond 1750PA OT at 300 ohms DC affect the tone of a Blues Jr compared to the OEM OT at ~ 7k-ohms, 97 ohm DC resistance?
Hard to say without cutting them open. DCR by itself isn't that meaningful, as it will depend on how many turns with X diameter wire. Different wires can give the same desired result but have very different DCRs. But between a Hammond and a stock BJ OT, it would not be an outrageous guess that the Hammond has a larger core, which would give more low end. But it's a lot more complicated than a pickup coil. Generalization can lead to incorrect understandings.
All things being equal, the EL84s will be loaded less with the 8.4K primary, so there is the potential for slightly more output with a cleaner sound. But not with the stock crazy hot bias.
Finally, someone asks the important question! Instant is never an option, and espresso isn't coffee. Drip and filter are the same, no? I have a Braun with a metal mesh filter. No paper. Makes a good cup of joe. French presses always get grounds in the cup. Had to use a moka pot once in Italy. Nasty results halfway between coffee and espresso.
Will a power transformer have a sonic difference? Excluding the feel/sag if there is a lower voltage, so assuming voltages are the same between two power transformer, will there be a sonic difference?
The short answer is no, given your parameters; however, the ability of one transformer to deliver more current than another can effect sound, but if that were to have any effect, there would also be a difference in voltage sag, as the weaker current would cause a voltage drop in the circuit. Ohm’s law applies to both the transformers and the circuit. Full disclosure: this explanation is based on theory. Two different transformers are bound to have slight differences, but your question assumed no difference in voltages, which I took as absolute for all windings during all conditions. So also yes, it can, haha.
Pretty much what Chris said, with exceptions. The most real world exception is quality inside the thing. From the outside they can look identical. But how it's made and how close to the edge of quality can be hidden. Many current Chinese PTs are operating right up to their limits. So when they work, all is well. But if the mains voltage spikes... Second is physical size. This isn't always meaningful, but in a very general sense the larger PT with the same nominal specs will run cooler and last longer. So between generic Chinese and a Marshall RI and a Heyboer, the Heyboer well be better. And often physically larger. If you are comparing Heyboer, Mercury, Hammond, a used Classic Tone, an old Schumacher, etc, then the differences are moot if the secondary voltages are the same given X primary voltage. And the current capability at X primary voltage of course. I usually advise clients that OTs can be a big difference and a worthwhile investment. Chokes depend on the amp/circuit, and are often a marketing thing. PTs are usually not necessary unless the existing PT is particularly cheap.
So, having the disconnected (out of circuit) tranny that close to the active one will effect it. I'll bet you turn the exterior one 90 degrees from the other your feedback frequency will change. Just a theory about effect, but certainly the magnetic field is altered in each.
@@PsionicAudio - The magnet shouldn't care about the state of the windings - the magnetic force remains regardless. Sure, there's no coil-induced EMF, but I assume some effect by magnetic flux? Still just a theory. Thanks btw for all the interesting videos!
Here is a basic comparison that I did a while ago. To my ear the Mercury sounds similar to the vintage Woden transformer. Though I prefer the Haddon transformer. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-uA9GSiIp14A.html
The Woden sounded better all the way. Transformer #1 was juicy and lively. That's what you want. My 63 AC30 has Wodens and it has those weird harmonics...but its worth it for how great the tones are. I was thinking Transformer 1 was the Woden but didn't want to guess. Most people don't own a real JMI and probably listen with crappy laptop speakers or phone .. I use good studio monitors. I was quite surprised people liked transformer 2 better. It was pretty clear to me that transformer 1 sounded better....more lively...more full....and harmonically rich.
Transformer 2 (Albion) had some real strengths too. The greater headroom let the Strat be "stringier" if that makes sense and when driven it had a kind of Mick Ronson sound. Not as full, but could be fantastic in a band context. Neither was bad. In a lot of ways, it's kind of like pickups. Stick Fralins and Lollars in a Tele. Different flavors. You'll know which is right for you, but it doesn't make the other one bad. When I upgrade existing amps with new OTs it's like going from a cheap ceramic bar Tele pickup to a Lollar. One is good enough. The other is actually good.
Have to say we are listening to the tone so playing it the same is not as important as all that .. The demo is fine with reference to how they sound compared to each other . Nice little talk about impedance mis-matches . Not that far in the weed for some of us but a good coverage for the non tech nerds. Having know a number of EE MEE PhdEE and the sign of a great designer is to know where to look things up . Too many do not listen to what they designed after they designed . So both are needed to be great at it . Most design in 2 dimensions you have shown that these thing operate in 3 dimensional way reference to the field you are showing . As you have seen in the comments often people conflate preference with some measure of absolute value. A bit of human short sighted view as it where.
