Thank goodness people are speaking about this issue. The South African runner Caster Semanya is 100% male, as is this boxer who just battered a female opponent. Semnanya was born with a rare birth defect called DSD 46XY 5-ARD (5 alpha reductase deficiency - a condition that only males can have. This condition causes malformed genitalia, that resemble a vagina at birth, but with male testes that remain inside the body, where they function normally and produce male levels of testosterone. A male with malformed primary sex organs is not a female. That is why Semanya is banned. That is why this boxer must be banned. It is not a grey area. It is not about 'gender.' It is about the safety and fairness to which all female athletes are entitled.
To be fair intersex athletes will never be able to match a real man athlete, medically speaking they have pre puberty muscle cell structure, yes it’s stronger the woman but far weaker than real man, it will be a grown man beating up a kid basically, let them have their own matches…stop putting them in women’s
Mike Graham is terrible for it. I don't mean any disrespect to the fellow, but he is a bit of a dunce and isn't qualified to comment on any subject at all. Yet he keeps interrupting his guests. Drives me mad.
Carini is not the only one hurt by this. Somewhere in Algeria is someone with XX chromosomes that this XY supplanted on the women's team - someone who had a rightful chance to be there but was denied because a male went instead. There is no honor or sportsmanship in allowing any of this.
Yeah we ‘ran out of time’ because you the presenter talked for the bigger part of the interview when you know little about the issue compared to Helen Joyce!
This is sickening? Women's Boxing should boycott the Olympics! STANDUP LADIES! Refuse to get into the ring with a man! DO IT! Is this the end of the Olympic Games as we know it? Will women not bother to compete any more? It's shockingly disgusting. The disaster that is Paris!
@@pippasessment1 Khelif hasn’t won gold. And this Olympics will be remembered for a drag queen Smurf exposing his testicles to the world on live global television as part of a sanctioned Olympic float.
Im not sure about a boycott as it only happens every 4 years but they should of agreed not to fight until this person was removed from the competition.
I do have an issue with something said - while I think it's important to say it's not fair to blame Imane Khelif on the basis of rules being followed, there is something deeply, inherently wrong with the integrity of anyone who CLEARLY knows they are taking advantage. Especially, _especially_ in a field where we're not talking about the damage being just hurt feelings. It's shameful if Khelif feels any pride or sense of accomplishment.
It's not that simple though. The IBA banned "her" because she has YX chromosomes, but the IOC let "her" compete any way, and they used the tried and tested "blame the Russians for it" approach to ignore the IBAs original ruling. So I feel that Khelif and Lin(the other controversal boxer) can be blamed as they had access to all the details and chose to fight women any way.
@@fairuzmaileen5691 I'm sure "she" did work hard; that's irrelevant - everyone in the Olympics has worked hard to be there. But to take advantage of the IOC's failure to keep XY people out of XX sports, this is in a very real sense steals someone else's dream who has a legitimate right to participate in XX sports. Let XY individuals fight in the XY category where they belong- don't think they'd like that as much though.
No, she did not experience male puberty, that is impossible. People with DSD / total androgen insensitivity / Sawyer Syndrome are completely unable to respond to testosterone, the unused excess is converted to estrogen and feminises the body to the point they are even able to get pregnant, though with help. Urban, A., Knap-Wielgus, W., Grymowicz, M. and Smolarczyk, R., 2021. Two successful pregnancies after in vitro fertilisation with oocyte donation in a patient with Sawyer syndrome-a case report. Menopause Review/Przegląd Menopauzalny, 20(3), pp.158-161. What the condition illustrates is it that the foetus begins as female until (if) testosterone affects development weeks after conception, but in the case of Sawyer Syndrome and other similar DSDs, testosterone has Zero effects on development body, so the foetus, child, adult remains physically female, to the point they can get pregnant with help (they lack ovaries).
@@Diamonddavej so where are the secondary female characteristics? He doesn't have any. DSDs are binary too. People with Swyer's LOOK 100% female. He is a man.
yes that angered me too ... that person knows they have an unfair advantage and yet continues to batter women around the head, oh yes it is their fault
Re: the thumbnail, a phenotype that excludes a visible penis does NOT equate to "female reproductive organs", it could simply mean a micro-penis and/or undescended testes. "Female reproductive organs" properly means ovaries a.k.a. large female egg-producing gametes and a uterus!
I love Helen, but I have to disagree. It is the fighters fault, as well as the organization that allowed him to punch a woman in the head.. he knows he's a man. He should not allow himself to fight women. That is his failing, his fault.
Yes, I agree, but I can see why Helen doesn't want to make this about the individual. Although her tone sounded as if she was sympathetic to the individuals, I think what she was driving at is that it has to be about the IOC's criteria for determining male/female otherwise it will be about 'cases'. If the criteria for those cases being judged male/female can vary according to their country of origin then the whole thing will be so messy and take far longer to resolve than the simple test she advocates. In the meantime women will continue to lose out or be put in harms way.
that's just naive wishful thinking; yes he knows, but he'll deliberately play dumb because he also knows that everyone is tiptoeing around him, afraid of hurting his feelings ... whereas women's feelings mean nothing.
Male fetuses start producing testosterone at 8 weeks. The reason that happens is because the fetus is male at conception due to the Y chromosome. There is some stupidity on the internet that says fetuses don't become male until the testosterone is produced. But it is the Y chromosome that determines sex.
People with DSD / total androgen insensitivity / Sawyer Syndrome are able to get pregnant, though with help. People are upset that nature blurs the lines sometimes: Urban, A., Knap-Wielgus, W., Grymowicz, M. and Smolarczyk, R., 2021. Two successful pregnancies after in vitro fertilisation with oocyte donation in a patient with Sawyer syndrome-a case report. Menopause Review/Przegląd Menopauzalny, 20(3), pp.158-161. What the condition illustrates is it that the foetus begins as female until testosterone affects development weeks after conception, but in the case of Sawyer Syndrome, testosterone has Zero effects on the body, so the foetus, child, adult remains female, to the point they can get pregnant with help (they lack ovaries), and lots of ill-informed abuse when they enter the Olympics.
Why the hell should she? He knew that he was a man assaulting a women, yet used the Olympic Games as a vehicle to seek to disguise this. The Olympic officials, however, are a million times worse in allowing this to happen.
DSD meaning Differences in Sex Development which has many different variations, one of which is total androgen insensitivity.We don't know the specifics of this persons condition. However this person has XY chromosomes, women are XX , so allowing him to compete in womens sport is unfair to all women even though we may have empathy for his condition.
She was forced to. When they agree to participate in the Olympics, the athletes agree to abide by certain rules in their dealings with the press. Looks like Carini fell foul of these rules, and her coach and sporting federation probably felt she should take the step to apologise or else risk legal action by the IOC.
I disagree that we shouldn't focus on the male cheats; just because the IOC has lost its marbles and allows this, doesn't absolve them from moral culpability for their own deliberate and informed actions.
Incorrect: we don't know for a fact that Khelif was born female and has Swyer syndrome because no official test results have been released to the public. The IBA statement never specified a condition nor has Khelif been open about it.
I've seen no claims made by the boxers in question or their reps that they have a DSD of any kind. If you're making unfounded presumptions that's not good.
How on earth do Talk TV know it’s Swyer Syndrome when literally ALL the information that’s out there is that he has XY chromosomes and that the International Boxing Association, after testing, categorised him as male? 🤔
The Paris Olympics have barely started and have already stuffed up in so many ways. Millions will wonder what more the organisers will do to make this the worst Olympics ever.
Why are you insulting people with dsd's and calling them intersex? They aren't between sexes, they are all either male or female! Passing this issue off as sawyer syndrome is also wrong. Additionally this athlete might not have known he was male up to the point of puberty after that it's him cheating.
Intersex is such and dehumanising term and it’s a misnomer. Intersex makes it sound like the person is both male and female, which has never actually happened. DSD is a more modern and accurate term for these medical conditions.
How can someone have an outward female body and have periods and give birth but it turns out they were a man all along? I don’t understand this disorder. Before we used to say seeing is believing but now we live in a time of technology where we can’t trust our own eyes and now they’re saying we can’t even trust our mother to be a biological woman? This is impossible!
@@jayterra2060yes because it seems that this person has PAIS OR CAIS (even more rarer than PAIS) which are androgen insensitivity syndromes rather than sywer which doesn't result in any male internal gonad.
@@DianaAndersonClarke ok so they have internal gonads? Where is the source for this? I guess it makes sense, I am looking for to collect the symptoms this person has … so far… we are alleging they were raised socially as a woman and have external female genitalia and have xy chromosomes. Also high testosterone.
No she is correct she might of been raised female and not known any different due to her genitalia? I know a boy who has female parts and identifies as a girl its real!
People with DSD / total androgen insensitivity / Sawyer Syndrome are able to get pregnant, though with help. People are upset that nature blurs the lines sometimes: Urban, A., Knap-Wielgus, W., Grymowicz, M. and Smolarczyk, R., 2021. Two successful pregnancies after in vitro fertilisation with oocyte donation in a patient with Sawyer syndrome-a case report. Menopause Review/Przegląd Menopauzalny, 20(3), pp.158-161. What the condition illustrates is it that the foetus begins as female until testosterone affects development weeks after conception, but in the case of Sawyer Syndrome, testosterone has Zero effects on the body, so the foetus, child, adult remains physically female, to the point they can get pregnant with help (they lack ovaries).
@@Diamonddavej You just described a condition where the person is male. They can't produce ova. It's an odd case where they can carry someone else's baby but that doesn't make them female. Male sea horses carry babies. Sex is decided at conception and testosterone is irrelevant to that
X and Y Variations, also known medically as Sex Chromosome Aneuploidy (SCA), involve variations in the typical number and type of sex chromosomes. The typical number of chromosomes in each human cell is 46. These include 22 pairs of “autosomes” (which refers to all chromosomes that are not sex chromosomes) and a pair of sex chromosomes, either an X and a Y (which makes for a male) or two Xs (female). That means the genetic signature for a person with 46 chromosomes is either 46,XY (males), or 46,XX (females). Any variation from these typical numbers is referred to scientifically as an “aneuploidy.” If there is one additional X or Y, it is known as a “trisomy” (“tri” denoting the number 3). Genetic conditions that reflect a trisomy include: 47,XXY (Klinefelter syndrome) 47,XXX (Trisomy X) 47,XYY Trisomies are the most common X and Y aneuploid conditions. Less common are “tetrasomies,” which denote the presence of four sex chromosomes: 48,XXYY 48,XXXY 48,XXXX Still rarer are the “pentasomies,” indicating five sex chromosomes: 49,XXXXY 49,XXXXX Typically, 48- and 49-chromosome variations produce more pronounced symptoms than trisomies, although this is not always the case. At the other end of the spectrum lie the “monosomies,” meaning a person born with only one sex chromosome. The only survivable monosomy SCA is 45,X. This is an individual with only one X chromosome, a condition known as “Turner syndrome.” A fetus with only one Y chromosome and no X chromosome is not viable and cannot survive. AXYS does not include Turner syndrome in its mission. Turner syndrome advocacy and support can be found at www.turnersyndrome.org. About 20 percent of persons with sex chromosome aneuploidies exhibit “mosaicism,” meaning they have two or more cell lines with different genetic signatures. Examples include 46,XY/47,XXY, and 45,X/47,XXX. Sex chromosome aneuploidy is not inherited. The extra chromosome occurs in cell division when the egg or sperm is formed, or occasionally during cell division after fertilization. An extra X can be contributed by either the mother or father. Only the father can contribute an extra Y chromosome.
This will be highly confidential, however it was carried out by ITA now perhaps someone could if they wanted find out what type of gender tests they carry out. I tried to look yesterday but couldn't find the answer
Female athletes affected by this boxing disaster "Boycott the Olympics" you are strong by standing together 100%. Send a strong message to the public by doing so. Don't let people brainwash you anymore. Sue the IOC by putting you in DANGER!!!
Every single human being has an instinct as to what is fair, and what rules do, is to push this instinct out of their mind. This is not an issue about sport, it is an issue about the ego, and egos are very dangerous if allowed to run riot, and the rules fuel the ego.
This particular case is actually complicated. It is a gray area because the boxer is a genuine intersex rather than a trans woman aka bio male. Intersex sports players are hard to place in a male-female competing category, especially considering that male and female size/strength do overlap considerably.
Heavier muscle mass, greater percentage of fast twitch Fibre, heavier bones, different muscle attachment tuberosities, greater haemaglobin, higher VO2 max, higher testosterone, the list goe's on.........XY is male and the differences are clear
I think all Alex has done is confuse ppl more. Helen gives a better understanding. Better explanations in the comments here. Unless this boxer comes out and admits which dsd condition he has we are somewhat guessing.
Perhaps all the women boxers should refuse to fight while there are men in their sport. The man looked masculine and the intersex bit should not be a factor. A passport should not be a declaration of your gender, just because something has been written down it does not mean it is the truth.
They went through this before in the 60’s with the East German swim team. They were xxy so couldn’t compete or something like that. They are xy so …it’s going to take a death.
IBA is not exactly the authority on boxing because it was disqualified by IOC. The key problem is the there were never specific rules in determining what allows a person to qualify as man or woman. Khelif was determined to be a girl since she was born and she was raised as a girl, treated as female for all her life, until IBA said she was not qualifed for Women's boxing for unspecified reasons.
Khelif was born and raised as a girl probably because her external genitalia look female. Unfortunately external genitalia may be ambiguous and are not a definitive test of sex. Chromosomes and testosterone are better indicators of being born male or female.
Thank you. Helen is bold-faced lying about the IBA. The same IBA that let Imane compete and then only kicked Imane out after a Russian boxer was beaten.
Bravo Helen. Hopefully the outrage means the reintroduction of sex testing. A simple cheek swab to check chromosomes. A few dreams will be crushed. But they're being crushed today as well, and some noses too way we're carrying on.
It is tricky because if someone is androgen resistant (Swyers), they end up growing up and looking like a woman. This athlete does not look Androgen resistant so that could be an issue.
sorry but I think we can blame the athlete. The smugness after the fight with the Italian boxer was disgusting. This a man getting away with pummelling a woman and smirking about it.
A shame they don't talk about her wins and losses. She has been beaten quite a number of times by female boxers. According to these ladies, a female boxer has no hope against a big, strong man!
Yes, it is ALSO the athlete's fault. He is relishing in beating up women to win a medal. Pathetic. He must be so proud of himself. However, the female opponents need to speak up and complain about the injustice; otherwise, they don't have my sympathy.
You do understand that someone with DSD / Sawyer syndrome can't respond to testosterone, it has ZERO effect on them. Like how someone lacking light sensitive cells in their eyes ends up totally blind. This is why they look and are physically female, to the point that they can even get pregnant, though with help: Urban, A., Knap-Wielgus, W., Grymowicz, M. and Smolarczyk, R., 2021. Two successful pregnancies after in vitro fertilisation with oocyte donation in a patient with Sawyer syndrome-a case report. Menopause Review/Przegląd Menopauzalny, 20(3), pp.158-161. Since the body did not and cannot respond to testosterone, they do experienced male puberty or any of the advantages it brings. Also, testosterone is converted to estrogen and feminises the body. What the condition illustrates is it that the foetus begins as female until (if) testosterone affects development weeks after conception, but in the case of Sawyer Syndrome and other similar DSDs, testosterone has Zero effects on development, so the foetus, child, adult remains physically female, to the point they can even get pregnant with help (they lack ovaries).
The thing for me is……If 60/40 people exist then the trans community should use it to articulate their main point of ‘the being of more than 2 sexes’ but they’ll just use it for men to enter women’s spaces.
So, though ditectely confronted with the possiblity of these two athletes being DSD, Helen just said "we should not focus on these individuals." and didn't discuss DSD at all.
@@johncampbell3912 I’m talking about that person specifically. Everyone is assuming she is intersex. She never claim that. IBA said she’s had XY chromosomes. She never dispute that.
IOC didn't just say passport focusing on just that is so manipulative!! All those speculations and all the horrible things the gust is making up are so grotesque and hard to listen to. F you internet bullies
Probably it’s partial androgen insensitivity syndrome ( very partial ) or deficiency of the 5 alpha redutctasis Enzime . Either way he’s a dsd man . Not a woman ,nor an intersex woman ( such as Turner syndrome or cah )
@@salvolondonTurner's syndrome isn't intersex. How do you know? If he is XY but labeled a girl st birth, there must be ambiguous genitals that could pass for female. Swyer's syndrome.
… @@jayterra2060 The symptoms don’t match. He was tested and found to be xy with male levels of testosterone. Swyer syndrome wouldn’t have had any male puberty as no testes no ovaries and so low androgen levels. 5ard, same as castor is most likely, because of the no sex testing loophole these athletes are searched for for this reason. That’s why there seems to be so many recently. They know the advantage of having a male in a female category.
Let me pose a question here. If there is a way to check if a fetus has DSD, and parents found out, they decided to abort the fetus, do you support the decision? Or if there is a way to genetically correct the genes related to DSD, and the parents opt for correcting the fetus' genes, do you support the parent's decision?
Hi Alex & love you shows & attitude! 💪 ❤ FYI, the IBA Testing showed that this Boxer called Iman has XY Chromosomes - and I read somewhere else that they have 'testes' in their abdomen.
The text on the screen says that Khelif has XY Chromosomes and ALSO female reproductive organs. So do they have female reproductive organs and if so what exactly? I thought they jus did not have a developed penis? Please clarify @sexmattersorg
This article has a title of Swyers syndrome otherwise known as 46 XY complete gonadal dysgenesis. People with this condition have an XY chromosome makeup but have no testicles or ovaries. As such they develop a vagina, cervix, uterus and fallopian tubes but no ovaries. They do not go through male puberty or have the ability to produce testosterone. With the aid of IVF and a donor egg they can carry a pregnancy through to term and have a normal vaginal delivery and their partners (husbands) may go through their whole life without even knowing. They are basically female with a male genetic karyotype. This is in stark contrast to those with complete (or otherwise) androgen insensitivity syndorme in which that person may only have a blind ending vagina without cervix of uterus and are unable to carry a normal pregnancy. These people can have internal testes that produce testosterone and convey an unfair advantage to them over biological women. Dont confuse the two.
if is not factual that Khelifa has XY chromosomes because the organization that claimed so has refused to release any documentation and they're known to be dodgy.
It is the individuell's fault. These two boxers know at least since 2 years about their condition. The fact that these two did not appeal, means they knew they are men. But still they decided to play against women in a very dangerous sport. So why "no no no no. It's not their fault"?
The Olympic Committee decided the boxer is female. They need to make it clear how they reached that decision. If it was based on the passport, then the boxer needs to have the cheek swab test to establish XX or XY chromosomes. (External genitalia can be ambiguous unfortunately).
Wait... Is somebody alleging that Khelif has Swyer's Syndrome? I don't think that has been officially confirmed. Khelif has been ruled "unqualified" by the IBA. We don't know on what basis. The IBA has not released this information, quite rightly, because it is confidential. People with Swyer's Syndrome do have XY. They also have female external genitalia, which may be fully or partially structurally functional. Their gonads, however, are not fully formed and do not function properly, resulting in a person with XY, but with a vagina, cervix and uterus that appear normal. Yet they have gonads (ovaries or testes) that are undeveloped. Thus, incomplete puberty and little or none of the male pubertal advantage that Khelif appears to enjoy. Lacking viable gonads, they would also be unable to produce viable gametes. Without the production of viable male gametes, can the person be truly and incontrovertibly male? (see Carole Hooven, "T"). Since Khelif does not appear to have Sywer's, what is it? It's unfortunate that the (frankly, ditzy) host didn't let Joyce speak nearly enough. Some of this might have been cleared up.
I have sympathy for Khelif in having been raised as a girl, and still being called a girl even after puberty proved him to be male. My sympathy ended when he decided to take his frustration with his situation out on women in the boxing ring. He's an abuser.
Only Males can have Swyer Syndrome, because it's caused by a defect in the Y chromosome, which Females don't have! It causes male fetuses to develop some pseudo-female characteristics, but does not produce a functioning female reproductive system. That's why it's false to try to determine a person's sex by their physical appearance. Only chromosome testing - for either XX or XY chromosome configurations - is a reliable method. The entire controversy could have been avoided if the IOC had taken a simple cheek swab from Khelif and had it tested. An "XX" result would have confirmed he was female, not male. Why didn't they do it?
The main gender recognition is and always has been the chromosomal make up which even in intersex people is definitive it’s either XX or XY. Yes some people can be born with female genitals but at puberty the internal genitalia does not develop but there may be male genitals internally. This anomaly is Swyer syndrome. However the fact remains chromosomes are only ever XX or XY and b6 now I think most people know which is which.
So he has been told before you are having a clear advantage and that is dangerous for other participants, and yet he insists to keep fighting women. Am so done with this dude
I look more manly than Khelif and people sometimes think I’m male at birth. You’re just getting sexist now and pushing people to transition. I can’t wait till the court case and you’ll finally see that Khelif didn’t have a biological advantage at all. Otherwise why did she lose so many matches? Carini often forfeits and calls foul - look her up! She’s apologised to Khelif as she never meant to imply Khelif wasn’t a woman. All the other boxers knew she’s a woman. Classic white western women bullying other women for being “too masculine and not girly enough”. Why I started socially transitioning in the first place to get away from the mean girls! Finally I saw sense and realised it was this toxic femininity rhetoric that was pushing me to feel safer living as a male as I desisted.
