Wonder Woman VS Maxwell Lord | Oh Snap 

Wonder Woman: Neck Snap Superman: Neck Snap Batman: Trapping someone in the sewers and leaving them to starve to death

Wonder woman: Oh great Hera I snapped Maxwell's neck. Also Wonder woman: So anyway.....

The thing that bugs me about the neck snap is that future writers treated the move as Diana's default modus operandi and not one informed by desperation...

Quote from Wonder Woman herself. "Don't kill if you can wound, don't wound if you can subdue, don't subdue if you can passify, and don't raise a hand at all until you first extended it." She went through all the options already, Max wasn't going to stop, she did what she had to. This was further gone into in Manhunter Vol 3 Issue 29, where Kate Spencer, AKA Manhunter, AKA the best lawyer in the DC Universe, takes up this case to defend Wonder Woman. Even Superman admits that it was the right call.

I do agree with Diana's quote in blackest night, her basically saying "Had to, didn't like it".

I believe this will be head turning video about Wonder Woman and Maxwell Lord

It's interesting that WW killing Lord is seen as more controversial and darker than when John Byrne had Superman execute a permanently poweless Zod.

Batman: "I'm Batman." Wonder Woman: "I'm Wonder Woman!" Batman: "Oh, snap!"

Maxwell Lord from the 80s: Literally just wants the world to be a better place and make heroes cool Some interviewer: “what a scumbag”

I'm pro neck snap. I think it adds some darn fine layers to Diana's character. First and foremost, Diana will do what's right. She's not bound by laws that benefit scumbags like Lex Luthor and Simon Stagg. If Diana has to make a hard call, she'll make the call and own it. This makes her a contrast to Batman and Superman, especially Batman who has an almost psychotic need to not kill. Wonder Woman makes the hard choices, but only as a last resort, and I think that makes for not just a strong woman, but a strong person.

I'm totally down for Diana. I mean when people push you so far. Sometimes ....you just ..... snap .

You taunt us by discussing Wonder Woman adversary Maxwell Lord while wearing attire that clearly shouts Wonder Woman adversary the Cheetah!

Was Wonder Woman right to do it? Yes. Was this a moment of strength for her? Her entire battle with possessed Supes was badass. The snap was the thrilling conclusion. Were there other options? Yes, but there wasn't enough time to get Zatanna and Martian Manhunter down there to help. Was the fall out justified? No. Should we move on? Yes. Please.

So, I'm in the Pro-Neck Snap room, BUT, I think the fallout and Diana's reaction was woefully mishandled. She should have been upset about the fact that she was forced to kill him, and Batman and Superman were acting really out of character. Iirc, they weren't originally supposed to, with Batman being more understanding.

Thantos: I’ll show you a dramatic snap. Wonder Woman: Hold my lasso, I’ll show you a true snap.

Confession time: I'm an idiot. Up until these last two Lord videos, I'd always viewed the neck snap as Max using his powers to make WW do it. Totally forgot she was using the lasso of truth.

Max: Hey Wonder Woman, what time is it? Wonder Woman: Oh, it half past SNAPPING YO NECK!

*"Oh Snap"* I understood that reference 😉

"I'm arguing with an interview from the past" relatable content

They always bring up the neck snap, but never the crackle and pop. 💥

If Diana had done this in the move when he showed up, it would have save us from *so many* plot holes and about an hour of unnecessary runtime.

Wonder Woman is a big fan of the song Rhythm is a Dancer, by the group SNAP! But seriously, glad she stuck by her choice, but going forward, DC was like, "Well, swords, shields, greek armor and killing is her main personality now". You know, kinda surprised that media hasn't even alluded to Max's death, even in WW84 as a idea. (A Kirk reference and no Chris Pine Steve Trevor joke? The restraint or a slip of the mind? lol)

DC 2011: This is too complicated, streamline things DC 2021: EVERY STORY EVER IS CANON! (I love the Omniverse, to be clear, but still)

What do Wonder Woman and Thanos have in common? They both like snaps

Lillie: “I’m immune to hypnosis for the reason because Wonder Woman.”

I do think there's this weird thing where it's like 'we want more morally complicated moments that make people think! No, not like that!' I do like the idea of Wonder Woman having a desperate moment where she chooses to kill someone to save others, and has to deal with the fall out. But I also prefer good/morally ambiguous Max Lord over evil Max, and I hate how much this moment has come to define him.

I was fine with her doing that because it was necessary. She received no joy from doing it and only did it as a last resort. "You kill monsters," she said, and she was right.

Frankly my biggest problem with this arc was what they did to Maxwell Lord, I couldn't even recognize him any more.

Diana : Here Maxwell, allow me to adjust your spine for you Maxwell: Thank you Wonder Woma-- *KRIK*

I think what bugs me the most in debates about fictional events - be it the neck-snap of Lord by WW or the neck-snap of Zod by Clark in the Snyder film - is the argument that the hero "had no choice." First, we aren't talking about a retelling of a historic event, set in stone by ... you know, reality. We are talking about fabricated events in fiction created by writers who CHOSE to create the scenario. That being said, even the fabrication by writers ignores the very idea behind what it means to be a hero. We focus so much on flying and running at the speed of sound, the strength to lift mountains, incinerate stone with a glance and force truthful confessions by magic, that we miss the REAL super-powers that these heroes are supposed to have. Wonder Woman and Superman, for all their godlike abilities, embody a humanity and compassion that is equally superhuman. There is no such thing as not having a choice for a someone with that much power AND that much humanity. They would always find a way. Or, failing to do so, they would sacrifice THEMSELVES before sacrificing another. Superman died fighting Doomsday. Imagine if Diana had had responded to Lord: "No, I won't kill you. There is another way." And then turned and fought Clark to a standstill forcing Clark, in his delirium, to kill her. That snaps Clark out of Lord's spell, and Lord just doesn't have the power to overcome the grief and conviction inspired by the event. For all the talk about Truth and Hope connected with these characters, the writers so easily forget about them when they want to.

I adore Rucka's run on Wonder Woman (or rather, both of them). I know he had intended to try to deal with the fallout himself, but was fired from the title immediately after the neck snap. I personally really like the way Marc Andreyko handled it in Manhunter, having Wonder Woman go on trial herself, and prove herself right.

So this is what happens when Phantom Stranger is running late... This reminds me of One More Day. The writers want to set up a situation where the hero makes a hard choice because all other options are off the table, but don't do a good enough job ruling out the other options in a satisfactory way. Superman can be de-powered or otherwise rendered unable to cause mass harm a number of ways, phantom zone or red sunlight spring to mind. Beyond that, why is it that just because Martian Manhunter thinks he can't fix superman, that no other options are on the table. Max may be honest in his belief that they can't undo his hold on superman, but even if we grant that the lasso would prevent his arrogance from blinding him, its not like he's done intensice clinical trials of all the means of fixing psychic damage to a Kyrptobian available to the combined heroes of the justice league and all their allies.

As a JLI fan, I find Max's turn pretty believable, since even at the beginning of his story, he was trying to murder his boss (that's before he found the sentient computer.) He walked the line pretty well. But IMO, they should drop the "snap" thing... as well as the connection between him and WW. It worked for a while, but before that, they barely knew each other. I've always felt that if Max is going to be a villain, he should be a JLI villain, as he was (sorta) in "Justice League: Generation Lost" during Brightest Day. The Max in WW 1984 is VERY much an original 80s Max, IMO. Even though he wasn't 1) a successful businessman, 2) especially good at manipulating people, or 3) able to control minds (so, basically, not very Max-ish), I felt that everything he did was exactly what an original 80s Max would've done in his position. And they could still make him go evil. Just have his son die due to superhero destruction, instead of his mom. Heck, make it be something that happened in "Man of Steel."

Your love for the 52 mini series gives me life, I am so here for it. 52 was my 1st entrance into comics and it made me love Booster Gold and the Booster Gold series made me ship Boostle and this led me to the JLI, it all comes together in the end doesn't it 😀

This was an interesting history lesson :) I'm glad that through the immediate reaction post neck-snap that Diana stood by what she did. 👌

The best line in Infinite Crisis was from Batman "You haven't inspired anyone since you died." She did own what she did, and I cannot fault her one bit. I did like the return of the JLI with Max Lord as the big bad and making the world forget the JLI members.

Diana isn't afraid to kill when necessary. I remember reading Wonder Woman #5 ("The Ares Assault!", June 1987) and my jaw dropping in awe as she hurled her tiara and cut Ares' son Deimos' head right off.

Idk it felt very in-character for Diana to kill when there was no other option. She’s the one least likely to get caught up in the guilt of having done it and would continue being a hero afterwards despite it (don’t think I could say the same of Bruce & Clark.) It makes me wonder how many other times a hero has killed someone and what the fallout was? That’d be a very interesting playlist/series

I loved reading "I Can't Believe It's Not the Justice League". Thanks for the name drop of a really entertaining read.

The way WW keeps the exact same expression during the deed lol

I always remember Max as a scumbag. Not an outright villain, but not someone you could trust. He put the JLI together not just to do good, but to advance himself. He got Huntress on the team by using his powers to "persuade" her... so by mentally assaulting her to get her on the team. He had certain lines he wouldn't cross, but he was still willing to sink to some low depths. Seeing him suddenly be all "Nyah! People with powers can't be trusted and must be brought to heel or destroyed! Nyah!" was garbage. It was just more of DC trying to show us how edgy and mature they were. Trying to please their aging and jaded fan base. But did they think at all, that maybe taking their characters all down this "mature" and very "adult"path, that they were pushing away the new young readers that they were gonna need to keep their company going in a few years? I'd like to see some stats on DC readers and their age demographics.

"Wait!" Superman gargles past his ripped but healing throat. "Does the Phantom Zone still exist in this continuity? Because if it does, I have a plan!" (I don't actually mind the neck snap, it can be a good way to layer distinctions in the Trinity for character purposes. But of course there were options.)

I’m Pro-neck snap. I don’t like that it happened but I recognize that it was the only way she had time for. Diana had one option available and she had to do it quickly. As for the follow out of such a decision I find it to be very unfortunate. Her friends and family abandon her like she was a stranger.

I really want to see a comic where Lois or possibly JImmy OIsen marries Darkseid, bonus points if Jimmy is dressed as Lois when he marries Darkseid.

WW84 definitely sets up Diana as a protector, with some subtle shade against the Snyderverse orgins “I hate guns” so it makes sense that she would reach out to Max to appeal to his better nature

I don’t know how you match outfits so well like it matches your wing and has cheetahs

Wonder Woman did what she had to, Maxwell Lord forced her hand, she did nothing wrong.

I’ve been collecting comics since the 70s.The problem with ongoing comics is that they cannot be innocent and complicated...because they are open ended intellectual properties of corporations. Wonder Woman’s neck snapped worked because of the era in which it was written. She had even killed monsters in Geoge Perez runs, so she was known as a warrior. DC purposely put their main heroes through the wringer. Just as the golden age of goofiness worked for its era..and bizarrely even the 60 Mod Wonder Wiman worked as well for its era. Dan Didio was right when he said if the stakes aren’t high and real, the readers have no reason to care. The sad part is long time readers get into recognizing cycles of comics.

I always thought of Wonder Woman as someone who would kill an enemy, but only when all other options have been exhausted. In one arc she said she loves everyone. She loves her villains just as much as she loves her friends. It makes her a more tragic hero because she might be forced to not only kill someone she not only doesn't want to, but someone she loves. That's has to be hard for her. Weighing the duties to her world and her friends against the life of someone that matters to her. I haven't read every single run of Wonder Woman but I have read enough and I never read a comic where she took about to preserve all life like Batman or Superman. In one of the Spider-Man movies Green goblin said that's why you don't want to be a hero is because you never know when someone's going to present you with an impossible choice. Maxwell Lord did present her with an impossible choice, to save her friends or disappoint her friends. I think it would have been more poorly received if it were Batman who had to make that choice, but again Wonder woman is not tied down to the same moral code of non-lethal forces like Superman or Batman. And if we're nit picking Superman did technically kill Doomsday, yeah he killed himself doing it but no one blames him for killing Doomsday. I think a hero like Diana is someone who will do that to protect her friends but it's never her first option it's always her last option.

After killing max she regret nessecity not the action. damn pulled a kyoshi on maxvell

Wonder Woman’s favorite fish? Snapper 🐟☺️

Snapswell Lord. Just had to...🤣

I just can not wrap my head around Batman holding a grudge toward Wonder Woman for killing Max Lord and saving Superman. Sure, maybe even Superman himself would be miffed, but not Batman. Seriously, did Batman actually verbally reprimand WW over this?

3:08 If it was Silver Age Lois instead of Post Crisis Lois she probably would have married Brainiac and Darkseid.

Almost 300 comments in four hours? That's breakneck speed!

I loved that moment. It’s a reason why I love Diana so much. She’s a badass who’s not afraid to do what needs to be done.

It's pretty interesting the WW killed him. She's a beast sometimes. I LOLed at you arguing with the commentary from 2005. That's so relatable.

Me: Settles down to watch a Lois relationship free video...... Sasha: 2:55 GOT'EM Me: KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!!!!!

I was just watching "The Watch" on BBCAmerica and they did something funny/ironic. While the heroes are killing off henchbeings trying to kill them, the henchers shout out things like, "He was a dad with 6 kids!" or "that was my wife!". I love seeing that killing has consequences, that even in silly stories with minor characters, they meant something to someone.

I still remember that story from Sacrifice. Wonder Woman killing Max made sense. There was nothing else that could be done at the time and Max said himself he would keep coming, why risk it? He wasn't gonna stop. She did the right thing.

“No verse puts baby in a corner” 😂😂😂

You can’t just throw out that tease of the Trial of the Flash and walk away. We need a 24 part video series!

Something should be said about how this also gave birth to the meme that Wonder Woman hates necks. There's even a collage of all the times she was since depicted attacking necks in one form or another.

Could max being a used car salesman, be a nod to cobra commander?

Yes, if Giffin isn't sure it's a cheap shot, he won't kill them off. Also, I think the neck snap was the perfect realisation of Max's face-turn.

The Joker once tried to screw with Wonder Woman, and she scared him so bad he never barked up her tree by himself again. The Max Lord confrontation was within my understanding of Diana's nuance. Points about Max himself well received, thanks. I loved 80s JL, but that was a while back, and those were some deep dive panels. I started reading Wondy in '87, for my dime, the New 52 Wonder Woman was the best run of her book. She looked like a Greek vase painting, and the plot was Game of Thrones on Olympus. It's my personal favorite lens on Diana. Fans who got alienated by the origin change are going to have to talk to a fan who didn't live out this exact scenario except that in my case it was an Irish fellow, and not Zeus. -Wonder Bastard

Diana is from a race of warrior trained, immortal women who suffered the burden of war throughout their history before making their way to "paradise". You don't go to war without knowing death is a byproduct, yours, theirs, bystanders, etc. Even though she was taught peace is the answer and compassion for the living, she was taught that first fact as well......repeatedly I'm sure. My biggest takeaway was that Bruce and Clark sat in condemnation, yet I've never read (at least) either of them offering up an alternative. Which honestly would be moot regardless. They weren't the ones in her position. She asked Maxwell a question. He was wrapped in the ultimate bringer of the truth. He answered. She moved on his answer. She was at war with a being that could destroy the entire planet, and she had the remote control in her hands. He had already almost brought Batman to death's door. She was holding her own, but for how much longer? As long as Max could keep moving the fight to where the sun was shining, Clark would never run out of power. Yes, I have feelings about this storyline. Lol! I also have super deep running feelings about Batman now being as responsible for the destruction wrought by the Joker for his obsession of the opposite take. Let's just say I side more with Jason Todd than I do with Bruce on this. I digress......I'm ready for this to finally have some distance and perspective. Time to stop seeing this as a defining moment. Wonder Woman's rules of war were defined for her centuries before this took place.

To quote one of my favorite superheroes "Rot in Hell Max."

I'm pro neck snap and I like that Superman and Batman didn't react well to it. it helps set her apart from them. I wasn't thrilled with Max being retconned, especially given that at one point Martian Manhunter had read his mind and verified that he was a good man.

I love your channel ! It is always challenging and thought provoking. Death is an absolute last resort, never to be taken lightly or for granted. It not only changes you but other peoples perception of you as well. Which I think was your point all along ! This vid reminded me of the of the final act of "City on the edge of Forever" .

Im so glad you appreciate 52. I got the 4 paperback volumes on my shelf and just thinking of a good day to reread those and all of Infinite Crisis

Look, I cry over Ted Kord's death whenever I read the Booster Gold arc. That's the only reason I'm pro my girl neck snapping him. I legitimately thought it was her reason for the longest time. Every time Max is adpated into anything my brain is like "neck snap him before he kills Ted!" The 84 version is a major disconnect in my brain. It's half "why didn't she snap his neck so he doesn't kill Ted Kord" and half "the lack of neck snap is a good direction for what this movie was going for".

The way they keep dragging Maxwell Lord up against wonder Woman reminds me of Marvel's obsession with constantly throwing Rogue at Carol Danvers. Like, they're both adults and superheroes now, so why continually punish them for something Rogue did as a supervillainous teenager? Drop it already and move on!

I was waiting excitedly for you to cover this. Its one of my fav comic book stories and wished a certain movie did it

I love how invested you are in whatever happened years ago. You are so fun to watch.

I so love your content, I'm old enough to have been there when these books came out, and your commentary on it gives such a unique prospective that I really appreciate, keep it up

Are those cheetah designs on your arms & shoulders? KOOL!

*Linkara's Infinite Crisis reveiw.* "Oh Snap!"

Very interesting episode, Sasha. You should discuss the controversy/discussion over Maximum Carnage and Spider-Man's inane refusal to kill Carnage even though Carnage was literally murdering everyone in New York. It's like how people argue that Batman should kill the Joker, but x1000. It was a wild time. I remember interesting discussions around Carnage back then.

Max Lord controlling Superman was worse than having access to all the nuclear weapons on the planet. The fact that anyone thinks Wonder Woman wasn't justified in ending an immediate threat to the entire universe is utterly baffling.

I can't believe you've been Batwoman this whole time.

The neck snap was the right move, sometimes that's the only option there is. That's just me but I'm not inspired by heroes who only ever get to take the easy way out morally speaking. Joker should definitely get a neck snap too

In my head-cannon one day a spaceship will land in Metropolis and the Justice League will gather to investigate. When it opens Maxwell Lord in 1980s attire will step out, thanking Magna Kahn for the ride, his back to the outside. When he turns around the JLA will confront him and learn that Maxwell Lord has been in space all this time negotiating a contract for costume designs from Mr. Nebula and missed all the events since his Supperbuddies time, including Flashpoint, the NU52, Rebirth, and his apparent death. From there he sets out to convince his old team that he's back and he's the Maxwell Lord they knew and , um, loved(?) while trying to figure a scheme to get himself back on top. This is when he learns of the evil Max Lord and we, the readers, now can choose which one we want to believe is the "real" one.

Wonder Woman tips fedora "M'Lord" (I'm sorry)

The idea that letting Superman go on a killing spree was the moral thing to do is absurd.

She uses a sword as a weapon. Of all the JLA, Wonder Woman killing someone should surprise no one.

Artificially manipulated? What the hell do these people think these stories are? Every story where a hero 'finds another way' is just as fake and artificial.

And now I'm wondering if Kirk would hit on Diana, and if she'd be interested if she had the lasso on him.

The comments from Rucka remind me of JJ Abrams attitudes towards the original series of Star trek. He thought the old series was just goofball and campy, but didn't bother to look at the content of the stories or the cultural significance.

OMG that sweater! I love it!

I think the morally ambiguous version of Lord was better than the "generic evil businessman" one.

I'm definitely pro neck snap simply because I think that the old "heroes don't kill" trope is used way too often. Maybe it's my frustration with the Batman and Joker situation (Mr J keeps murdering and Bat's only response is "let's capture him and put him into Arkham for the 1000001st time") but I feel that sometimes writers use the "no-killing" rule as an excuse to be lazy.

I hate how I can only see and hear his film iteration when reading/listening to his lines. I hear the damn "life is good but it can be better" screaming in my earholes.

The problem with moments like this is that if it involves a smaller character (like Max), their character ends up becoming defined by that scene because it became more iconic than the character himself. Max can't go back to being a good guy because thanks to the neck snapping scene, what people think when they think of Max is "psychic business Wonder Woman villain" and comics ALWAYS shift to fit the public perception of a character. He's stuck.

So like how Superman did to General Zod in Man of Steel

This reminds me of the Man of Steel debacle. Did Superman have to kill Zod or not.

I love this channel sm 😥

Comes a hero . . . the startling introduction of Leopard Arms! Jaguar Arms? Whichever.

Those are possibly the greatest sleeves I have ever seen on a shirt

Darkseid looks so happy to be with Lois though. It’s not even an evil grin. 😂