Wrapping Your Mind Around D&D's Magic System (Spell Slots, Vancian Magic)

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Since magic in D&D can be kind of weird and esoteric and hard to understand, this video is meant to show how we get our heads around it.
Apologies to Christine Miserandino for mispronouncing her name so often in this video.
Chapters:
00:00 - What is "Vancian Magic?"
01:46 - Wizards/Magic Users in D&D
02:54 - Power Creep
03:34 - Magic Across Older D&D Systems
05:03 - The Spell Slot System
07:59 - Using "The Name of the Wind" as Inspiration
09:39 - The Spoon Theory
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Опубликовано:

9 июн 2024

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Комментарии : 85

@MorningDusk7734 2 года назад

While I like the spoon theory in terms of describing a living person’s energy reserves, I feel like it doesn’t quite capture the spell slot system. I prefer to think in terms of measuring cups. You have different sized measuring cups for your different level spell slots, and can only pour magic into one at a time. Once they’re used, they can’t be used again, because they’re dirty. You can pour 1 cup of magic into a 2 cup measuring cup/spell slot, and maybe it can hold a little more, but you can’t pour 2 cups of magic into a 1 cup spell slot. I find this better answers when someone asks “well, why can’t I use 2 level 1 slots to cast a level 2 spell?”

@SupergeekMike 2 года назад

This is a GREAT analogy! And somehow, impossible to believe, it’s clearer and easier to understand than, “Imagine an infinite vending machine…” lol🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️

@autographedcat Год назад

FWIW, it doesn't. That's why many spoonies adopted the spell slot system as a better metaphor, and not the other way around. :)

@ReverseUnicorn 2 месяца назад

If you think of the Spoons in Spoon theory as measuring spoons, I think Spoon Theory still works.

@Drudenfusz 2 года назад

As a person who struggles with chronic depression, I can say: there are days in which I wake up and have already no spoons left to do anything...

@Luredreier Год назад

I know that feeling... I usually try to get *one* thing done throughout the day, if not with energy then just with bloody-mindedness...

@Kielsram 2 года назад

I like the spoon theory. It's simple yes, but that simplicity is a great way to explain things to new players who are interested in spell casters. I had no idea about the Vancian Magic system. I've heard stories of spellcasters forgetting spells from older, veteran players. I thought it was a monster or spell effect that did it. I'm glad we don't do that anymore cause that sounds like a pain.

@usxxgrant 2 года назад

Be happy. The rules and philosophy of TTRPG's have come a long way from the days of the original 3 booklet set of D&D. The original D&D set was an expansion of a fantasy appendix in 'Chivalry and Sorcery,' a set of medieval wargame rules and included personal jousting combat. I may misremember some of that; it was a long time ago. What I clearly remember is the combat tables of D&D were linked to C&S. You needed the latter as a cross- reference to implement combat in D&D. I also recall that it was out of print by the time I got involved. We got it to work somehow and enjoyed mostly dungeon crawls. This was while in the army. 1976 to 79. One of my best friends in, and a long time friend after my army times was introduced to me his first evening after arriving to our unit. An acquaintance brought hi to my room, saying, "This is Don. He plays D& D too." I almost launched myself off the bed at him, wide eyed, and my first words to him were "Do you know how the combat system works?!" Sadly, he didn't, but I made a lasting impression on him. After the army Advanced D&D became available and it got a lot better. Side note: I think through the 80's there was a common joke in the community: If you want to alienate or piss off your DM, say you want to grapple an opponent. Well, Grampa has rambled on long enough. It's been wonderful watching the progress and evolution of TTRPG's over the years. Carry on, my fellow comrades in spirit!

@zabeerfarid7687 Год назад

Jocat has described spell slots as magic bullets and ever since then that’s how I’ve thought of it

@baie_nuuskierig 2 года назад

holy cow....spell slots! now I have a new way to explain it! because I do love my spoons, but sometimes you spend a teaspoon, and other times a serving spoon. so spell slots are so much better to explain. also, love the Discworld reference - GNU Terry Pratchett.

@actualperson7295 Год назад

Anyone that knows the spoon analogy has my love. I wish I could give you a few of my spoons.

@pdyepes 2 года назад

In Vance's writing it's not specified that you can memorize more than one cast of a spell, rather you can only memorize a single cast of that spell. It's even more limiting. On the other hand, the spells are super powerfull and obviously don't depend on any level system, so in theory a lowly hedge wizard or witch could try their luck on the most complex spells with a great probability it will backfire on them.

@CJWproductions Год назад

Right lol. In Eyes of the Overworld, a guy casts a spell for the first time in his life, and it's essentially Imprisonment, which in D&D is a 9th level spell -- the most powerful level there is! To say more would be a spoiler. But yeah. While some spells are harder to understand for the caster, technically anyone could do it.

@Ouvii Год назад

Yup, doesn't depend on levels, though the attribute of intelligence and the strength of the spells themselves limit how many can be memorized at once. I'm still reading through the series, but I think a miscasting that happens at one point implies that intelligence isn't a hard limit, but a soft limit with potential consequences... Though the character is pretty smart, so maybe it is also a bit of skill-based magic, idk

@katiecat9353 Год назад

I always found it confusing how in older editions of D&D you can have the exact same spell memorised twice at the same time. What would that even involve, mentally?

@DoomguardKino 2 года назад

7:15 The moment Mike realizes this metaphor may be falling apart.

@mkang8782 2 года назад

I forgot that you had to specify how many times you prepared a spell. A house rule I eventually developed for running DnD 2E was to incentivize single classing over multiclassing: single class casters did not have to specifically prepare certain spells. Multiclass casters, even if both/all classes were casters, had to specifically prepare spells. I liked 4E's intent with giving each class powers; this gave martial classes a lot more variety and tools. Frankly, it's my opinion that 4E got a much harsher rap than it deserved. Finally, I really appreciate what 5E did for spellcasters, especially the ritual casting feature.

@jaredcarter1165 Год назад

My girlfriend and I both are neurodivergent and have differing chronic issues, and we make reference to both spoons and DnD all the time. I’m a warlock (much more use out of short rests, can do some “difficult” things at will), she’s a wizard. It’s limited, but it’s still such a useful analogy and tool. We also say “bananas” to refer to sources of dopamine. A lot. Weirder to explain lol

@liizumi3337 Год назад

5E was the first time I ever wanted to play a Wizard; I couldn't stand the way Wizard magic was done previous (the memorization/forgetting/choose each casting for the entire day); I like the more flexible 'you can only prepare a particular number a day, but you can cast those however you want within your particular numbers of slots you have'.

@amberdaze7892 2 года назад

"no one has to set aside energy to do tasks for the day, right?" me: *laughs in disabled and neurodivergent* "let's talk about spoon theory" me: OHHHHH but seriously HOW DID I NEVER REALIZE SPELL SLOTS WAS SPOON THEORY??? it's a good thing all my friends are dnd nerds like me so they won't be confused when i just say "sorry i'm out of spell slots" now lmao

@meggincody 2 года назад

I did exactly the same.

@TheHiroBlade Год назад

By the time he'd started talking about The Name of the Wind, I immediately started thinking "This sounds like spoon theory" so I was happy to hear him, only a minute or so later, bring it up and relate it to the concept.

@SupergeekMike Год назад

☺️

@bigklu4756 Год назад

Hadn't heard of the spoon theory before, but it's both simple and intuitive. Great example!

@sad_hedgehog Год назад

thank you for introducing me to the spoon theory. this is something that i can myself use in convos to explain my situation. and thank you for the vid as well! i value the visual implementation and your explanation about the spell slots is something i never thought i needed to re-imagine the system.

@SupergeekMike Год назад

Glad it was helpful!

@moontitanzan 2 года назад

Didn't know about the origin of spoon theory coming from someone with Lupus. Thanks for sharing!

@SupergeekMike Год назад

You're welcome!

@bristowski 2 года назад

I like Mike. This is a good channel.

@obscenityoverload5458 2 года назад

As someone looking into playing DnD this and you channel has been very helpful

@SupergeekMike Год назад

I'm very glad!

@skylark7921 4 месяца назад

I’m autistic and the idea of spell slots is also super useful for me to explain why I can do certain tasks but not others. A phone call is like a 1st level spell. Grocery shopping is a 2nd level spell. Cooking a meal is 3rd level. If I have one spell slot of each level, I can make 3 phone calls OR go grocery shopping and make a meal. The idea of long rests and exhaustion is also useful - if I don’t sleep (which happens not infrequently bc circadian rhythm shenanigans), I don’t get my spell slots back. If I push myself to the max by going to a large gathering, I’ll need time to recover.

@jonathanschaefer9848 2 года назад

I though the splitting of the mind is the technique to use Alar, a belief in an altered reality enough to enact it (sympathy) whereas heart of stone is more of a meditative state that allows one to better achieve this effect. Been a while since I read it though. Really cool way to connect sympathy into d&d. I love the sympathy system, and never thought of spell slots that way. I usually think of them more as innate magical energy/your body’s magical potential and limit, also a sign strength of connection to the weave/nature/deity. But the idea that one would need to compartmentalize and use “Alar” in order to bend reality in a D&D setting is actually really cool and something I might start flavor-implementing!

@ElwoodGaming Год назад

As someone who does not get to play D&D very much at all due to lack of people to play with and TERRIBLE internet, I found myself in a DM role on all of the few times I get to play. The vending machine is VERY good at describing spellcasting and the costs that it takes. For me, and most of those around me, that is a very literal translation that speaks to the apprehensions of most people. You have X amount of dollars to spend on spells each day. 1st level costs 1 dollar, 2nd level cost 2 dollars and so on. And you get to chose what's in the vending machine each morning. Every time you level up you get new spells to put in the vending machine and you get more money. Brilliant! I'll be using this forever now, lol!

@TakeWalker Год назад

the historical context is fascinating, I've never heard any of this before. :D

@hedgehogmorph7248 Год назад

Having watched this video i now feel like i have passed through the fire (of all variations of confusing magic systems)

@captainkiwi77 Год назад

Gotta love spoon theory, it’s useful when it is

@Deadlyspark 2 года назад

Perfect timing! Was about to sleep but caught this just in time

@Knopey Год назад

This is my favorite video on D&D magic yet. (except maybe the rant about notw3 comments. You could've skipped that imo. Just moderate comments as you see fit, but don't tell people not to speak their mind on stuff you actually feature in your videos. you honestly put me off quite a bit there. But that's just a side note by some random fella). I have always struggled to weave the mechanics of magic into the narrative of the game. It always felt weird. And ever since I've seen that D&D cartoon in which that necromancer unironically explains that a magic user can only cast so many spells a day, I've been put off D&D magic almost entirely. Now learning about its origins at least gives me a new perspective on it. 👌

@greenguy369 Год назад

I agree with all points... emphatically with one point in particular.

@sigmal47 Год назад

great video!

@apm77 Год назад

I looked up _Name of the Wind_ and apparently it was published in 2007, much more recent than I'd have guessed. The bit about thinking of two things at once reminds me of the magic system from _Pawn's Dream_ by Eric S Nylund, published in 1995. In it the magic user has to concentrate simultaneously on two opposing forces, such as fire and water, which is likened to touching both ends of a battery. I doubt this could be adapted for an RPG (it's not very quantifiable or amenable to logical analysis), but I have sometimes wondered if it could.

@benboyd1995 2 года назад

Enjoyed hearing about the history.

@crisoliveira2644 Год назад

Back in the day, nobody liked D&D's Vancian magic. We all thought it made no sense. It took decades until I found the explanation for the system and then, I thought it was genius!

@juiceboxofdeath Год назад

Mike must be friends with this name of the wind author.

@SupergeekMike Год назад

I wish.

@CluelessPigeon 7 месяцев назад

I like how D&D led me to understand other people more

@chadcurtis7967 Год назад

As a former 2E player, we essentially played using the current rules. My DMs let us cast any spell we had in our spell book and pick the level we cast them at. The prep work is time consuming and the predicting also required the DMs to help and a lot of recognition of the list.

@sable2146 Год назад

9:50 OMG spoon theory! perfect! ty! spline theory by Luna Corbden might be helpful too

@dustinshorter2391 6 месяцев назад

You have explained spell slots in the best way I have ever heard. I still hate the spell slot system because the only purpose of it was to provide balance between the different classes. It just feels super lazy and so arbitrary. There is nothing in the characters stats or anything class related that relates to this made up spell slot table and the 8 hour rest requirement to get back spell slots. There are so many better magic systems in other RPG's that I most likely will never play D&D's magic system every again unless D&D adopts a better magic system.

@ItMeansSun 2 года назад

A rothfuss fan! I knew I subscribed to you for a reason

@Kelarik 2 года назад

I should revisit the Kingkiller Chronicles books. The Slow Regard of Silent Things was a very pleasant listen on audiobook.

@CharlesBlazer Год назад

Good stuff. As another potential metaphor, I usually RP running out of spell slots as simple mental exhaustion. As a person in the world, my character is aware that magic is draining, and some magics are more draining than others. It is much looser than the actual mechanics. But I've also mainly played Bard and Sorcerer, and not Wizard. I could see RP'ing a much more mechanical system when playing a Wizard.

@Piqipeg Год назад

I have a house rule (and it's not really original, I've seen it floating around different D&D communities) that gives spell casters the alternative to when their spell slots are out they can still cast but they gain exhaustion levels equal to the spell level (up to lv 6 since that will kill you).

@BigBrain05 Год назад

How your audio quality has changed in just 9 months

@SupergeekMike Год назад

For real tho lol

@linaskurtinaitis Год назад

Where's the third book?

@TheRealKLT 11 месяцев назад

Absolutely loved the hard edge you took on Rothfuss whiners. Thank you! Those people are intolerable.

@ravenshadowz2343 Год назад

Is the book series you talked about and showed the second book on Audible?

@SupergeekMike Год назад

Yes, and the narrator is terrific! “The Name of the Wind” is the first book, “The Wise Man’s Fear” is book two, both are excellent.

@ravenshadowz2343 Год назад

@@SupergeekMike, thank you!

@davos6129 Год назад

After having played 5e for about a year, I played a one-shot in 3.5 and picked wizard. The moment I learned how magic works in 3.5 I decided to never play that version again. Never again do I want to play a wizard who has to fight entire encounters hitting enemies with his staff because he's out of spells. 5e with its cantrips is a blessing compared to that. But even spell slots aren't all that great in my opinion, which is why I'll use spell points instead when given the opportunity. A much more flexible system

@-Gax- Год назад

Okay, I need to read that book. The controversial no 3rd book one. It must be absolutely brilliant.

@SupergeekMike Год назад

It honestly is a great series, both of the books (and the spin-off novella) released so far are great. (I just get annoyed when the conversation around those books inevitably gets derailed about frustration that the final installment isn't out yet; I totally get where it comes from, but some fans get pretty toxic about that.)

@-Gax- Год назад

@@SupergeekMike thank you so much for the recommendation!

@greenguy369 Год назад

I'd, personally, recommend waiting. The first two books are absolutely wonderful but they DO NOT stand on their own. They simply don't read well as is.

@atashgallagher5139 Год назад

Or you can be my fighters / rangers that are often Shonen protagonist levels of broken teleporting around they move so fast, making a half dozen attacks per turn, being impossible to hit, and doing twice the damage of the wizard in all but the most AOE necessary situations. Notable guys are the invisible gloomstalker ranger with a slight multiclass into rogue for always on sneak attacks and a +10 to hit without a magic weapon. The ranger with a +10 to hit and 2d8 + 1d6 + 1d4 damage per hit multiple times per turn. And the dual wielding fighter that could make 8 attacks with action surge as soon as multi attack came into play. Sure they won't warp reality, but neither will the wizard when the wizard is a pin cushion or finely minced.

@crayyonnyadrav4055 Год назад

okay, i never read the series "The Name of the Wind" and am simply curious as why this 3rd book is infamous appaerently.

@malcolmrowe9003 Год назад

It's infamous in the same way as the final installment of George R. R.Martin's The Song of Ice and Fire series (AKA Game of Thrones for TV fans). It's been a long time coming and some fans get really worked up about the delay, criticising the authors when they dare to do something else, such as charity D&D one-shots or releasing other works.

@greenguy369 Год назад

Actually... It's not really the same. But, whatevs. They get lumped together all the time. But, George RR Martin and Patrick Rothfuss are very different public figures...

@gebatron604 9 месяцев назад

i dont understand why people think vancian magic is unintuitive. i think the 5e magic system is a lot less intuitive, partially because characters still have spell 'slots', even though 'slot' doesn't really describe magic in 5e as well as it does in old school systems. you fill a slot with a spell and you cast it, like putting a round in the chamber of a gun and shooting it

@whispertheviewer Год назад

Welp, we found a mike pet peeve.

@Paxladar 2 года назад

Wizard is always my favorite and 5e is so much better than 2e. It sucked only being able to cast Magic Missile once a day. Small note, arcane recovery to get spells slots back on a short rest is another game changer too.

@angelusdemorte3 Год назад

So MENTAT'S from Dune could be Mages?...

@dford4014 Год назад

Nah, man, I love the metaphoric way you talk! I'm waiting for Book 3, too!

@natecraftman Год назад

bUt WhErE iS tHe ThIrD bOoK???

@FenC919 2 года назад

3 hours in and the comments are still open... WHERE- just kidding. Fingers crossed.

@SupergeekMike Год назад

Lol people have been very well-behaved.

@kori228 Год назад

I'll be honest, I don't like the way spellcasting *_feels_* in DnD. It's so cumbersome and narrow, and exclusively a "caster" thing 2:42 "you impose limitations" Which really doesn't work today. A better solution is to elevate the other classes to the same level with preternatural powers a lot of people have told me 4e sucks, but the more I look into it, the I think it actually fixes most of the issues I have with 5e. I *want* the powers while being a martial class. I *want* to feel cool doing over-the-top things.

@Stephen-Fox Год назад

4e's magic (and daily abilities, etc) makes sense as a _game_ - And it's combat is very highly regarded from folk looking for TTRPGs as tactical miniature wargames. But, personally, I struggle to justify a lot of what it's doing from a world-building or story system, even more than 'healing magically heals you' of 5e. So it really depends on what you're looking for when it comes to your TTRPGs.

@kori228 Год назад

@@Stephen-Fox I'm not one for tactical wargaming, but 5e fails even worse with regards to making martials feel actually cool. Still looking for a good system that doesn't just disregard the martials and can actually be epic and cool.

@kailenmitchell8571 Год назад

Love magic users played them for years but NEVER EVER have I ever liked the Vancian magic design. The longer ive played (Early 80s) the more I have disliked it.

@Lowraith Год назад

Name of the Wind had some really interesting worldbuilding and setting mechanics. And the author's use of descriptors was pleasing. But my god, the primary love interest is such a toxic person, and the main character such an overwhelmingly flawed enabler of that toxic person... I couldn't finish the 2nd book.