Woah, boy is this an old video. Thanks for all the new views guys, it means a lot! Just dropping in to say one thing. I should have been clear in this video that some of these things are more appropriately considered 'Tropes' rather than cliches. The good news is that I did a video talking about the important differences ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-XCeTv6nFYT4.html
8:10 oh, I know. I'll call my villain "the deliverer of light". No, that sounds too lame. Let's translate it to Latin for extra effect. Lucifer. Perfect.
Lucifer [lucis ferre] actually means morning star, day star, or light bringer, and originally was a name for the planet Venus in the morning sky before sunrise. The appearance of the Hebrew word Helel, translated in Latin as Lucifer, which occurs in the book of Isaiah does not refer to Satan but a king of Babylon. The conflation of Lucifer and Satan was cemented into modern Christian mythology largely thanks to John Milton's 17th century Bible fanfiction "Paradise Lost" which depicted Satan as a fallen angel (which is not from the Bible) in imagery highly reminiscent of Isaiah and the metaphors became mixed. Lucifer is not among the many names given to The Adversary/Accuser and much of the confusion came from translation issues.
This is exactly what I loved about the fallen and the faithful series. You grow very fond of the villain only to find he is destined for evil kind of like anikan in star wars.
Except the best villains I mean actually Vader hates himself, Joker gives no fucks, Sidius just enjoys being evil, Sauron is loyal to Morgoth and none of them sees themselves as good
So basically: the bad guy (who is tall but has a Scottish accent) seeks revenge after a short blonde/blue haired guy's horse takes a shit on him. The hero, who isn't orphaned nor has any unique powers, kills the bad guy with a sword that isn't too special. Gotcha.
Wolfshot Publishing Us writers use the horse not running out of breath or food and not taking a shit because no reader wants to read bout some horsey taking a terd on the ground randomly.
Old Peculier tywin lannister's horse actually took a turd randomly as he was about to enter the throne room majestically astride the said horse, and it was a glorious shot in tv history.
@dalana waller many Scots have a mixture of Celtic and Norse ancestry...two ethnicities that were famous for producing unusually tall people. The ancient Romans seemed to find Celtic women utterly terrifying and a particularly memorable description of Boudicca the Queen of the Iceni begins "Huge was she and terrible with hair like a river of fire and a voice like a brazen trumpet..." rather like Yours Truly.
I would love to one day read a book where 'the Chosen One' is actually one of the friends of the main character. There's so many things that could be done with a premise like that!
at least in star wars the chosen one turned to evil. tho I would have said chosen one just have it go to their head and corrupt them because "Im the chosen one, I cant do no wrong, I am the king and you dont know anything."
I never really thought about the horse. But I remember reading that if a cheetah, horse, and human were to have a race, the outcomes would be different depending on the length of the race. A short sprint would have the cheetah as winner and human in third place. A marathon would have the cheetah losing badly, while the human would win. Humans have greater endurance than horses. A human can run or walk for 24 hours, while a horse can't. The main reason is that horses require a lot of time to eat. Grazing animals need to eat for a large part of the day, and it's difficult to get energy quickly from plants. Humans are omnivores, and we're able to get quick energy from meat to help sustain our endurance. So, if you want an animal that can go for days with reasonable breaks, humans are the animal to use.
Only hearsay for the horses, really. But some basic biology, I think :) Actually, I enjoy some long distance hiking, and have gone 35 km without taking a break. I need to do it again sometime. Maybe when it's not winter!
@@ginge641 it is generally believed that our upright posture is a result of our evolution to become the best endurance hunters in the animal kingdom. Even wolves can not run for as long a sustained length of time as humans (we also sweat instead of pant to reduce heat which gives us an advantage over wolves). Jay Dee Archer is slightly exaggerating though. A man on a horse will probably still beat a man on foot in a marathon (as long as they don't try to make the horse go full speed), but for even longer distances a man can outrun a horse.
The horse is a freaking running machine! Humans would not stand a chance! That is why they trapped animals like that. You think a human has more endurance than horses? Well, a horse has no muscles in their legs, only ligaments - to save oxygen when running, meaning when they run, their heart can focus on vital organs to keep the body going. Their lungs are huge, a child could live in them. They can go for hours when stressed and yes, they spend 15-17 hours eating on a normal day, but they can run for hours and days and they only need 2-4 hour sleep in a day, and they can do it standing up if feeling unsafe. Sure their all over well beeing would be terrible after, and they are capable of running to their own death, but its still possible. Homo sapiens downprioriticed the body in evolution to compensate for the big brain (which take 30% of the nutrition we eat). Humans do have stamnia, and are capable of jogging for hours on hours, but sprints are for short dictances. We have a wery complex muscle strukture all the way through our arms/legs which is perfect for climbing, toolmaking etc, but it costs a lot of stress to the heart that need to pump more blood while running. Imagination is what separates us from animals as far as we know (and thumbs, ability to make and use tools), physically we are not all that much in comparison with mother natures creatures. Cheetahs are not endurant, they are deadly, explosive sprinters and catch prey that is close. Horses are fast, strong and endurant and almost impossible to catch in open landscape (where they naturally live). Humans are smart and would chase the horse to a trap that keeps it from running and kill it there.... cavepaintings depict hunts like that :) Nature is awesome. Agreed with using animals as props in books... just poor/lazy writing. Horses are not like cars either, they have will, power and personalties
I've decided to write a book using a whole bunch of cliches, but the main thing that differentiates it from others is not the sarcasm, but the fact that the main character finds out that he's in a book and tries to escape. Has that been done before?
That sound like a great idea, if you don’t mind a recommendation, Diana Wynne Jones has a good book of fantasy tropes called the tough guide to fantasyland. Im using it to find things to avoid but I guess it could also be used as inspiration.
Well, the spanish author Miguel de Unamuno was famous for his "nivola" ( thats how he called his novels ) called Niebla. In the chapter 31 the protagonist find out that he is a character book and he even talks with Unamuno, but i dont know if it was done before in english. I recommend you to read the novel if you are going to try your idea. Maybe It could give you more ideas.
Great vid, Cam. Tolkien had a strong interest in Norse mythology (which is where he lifted his ideas of Dwarves, elves, trolls and giants). Even today, there is a location in Norway called Trollheimen (Troll Home). Norway is also home to the city, Trondheim, which is along the same vein. I agree about props. My wife and I own horses and know the difficulties (and expenses) to care for them. Depending on the breed of horse, the location in which they live and the workload of the animal, horses can consume up to 30 litres of water per day. So, if you look at even a small force of 10 cavalry (say they are scouts), were they to travel across an arid area where no water resupply would be available for some time, the force would need to carry with them 300 litres of water to survive 1-2 days (and that's just on the march, not in combat where the horses would be placed under much greater fatigue). They would need to be fed at least 1-2 'biscuits' of lucerne (for instance) twice per day. An average bale of Lucerne consists of 10-12 'biscuits'. So, for that crew of 10 cavalry scouts, to survive 2 days, they would require 4 bales of Lucerne. If you're talking a large cavalry force in a protracted conflict, they would require farriers to trim their hooves, shod them, re-shod them or repair shoes that may have been thrown. It becomes clear after a while that the saying, "an army marches on its stomach" is so true, and that wars are won by logistical prowess as much as they are by physical soldiering. Good clip, mate!
Hi Cam, I have always had a keen interest in (certain) military history and tactics, so find all of those things quite interesting. Back to your props comment, many authors also use marching armies as props. These troops are inexhaustible, don't become hungry, injured or sick and it really grinds on me (if some type of magic is involved, I can accept that (to a point)). Like you said, if an author adds in a dose of reality to that marching army (the wheels of a couple of supply wagons become damaged or bogged forcing the army to stop), it makes the story (and the army) so much more feasible. Everyone knows the Normans successfully invaded England in 1066 after defeating the Anglo Saxon Army and England was forever changed after that point. But fewer people know that the Anglo Saxon Army fought off a 10,000 strong Viking invasion at Stamford Bridge on September 25, 1066. Why is that date important? Because the Battle of Hastings (Norman Invasion) occured at the other end of the country on the 14th of October 1066. So the Anglo Saxon Army defeated the Vikings, then (in less than 3 weeks) performed a lightning march the length of the country to try and resist a second invasion attempt. When the Anglo Saxons arrived to face the Normans, they were exhausted, hungry, poorly resupplied, many of them were sick and subsequently, they were defeated. England was forever changed. Had the Vikings attacked six months before, or the Normans six months after, it would have given the Anglo Saxon Army time to rest, recover and reinforce prior to be expected to fight once more and England itself would be a very different country today.
100% agree, like you said it's much the same when it comes to armies, minions and horses etc. I understand on a certain level why they wouldn't focus TOO much on those things as it could distract from the main story and get boring but even with that in mind, it gets a bit silly haha
Keith McArdle Author - Your post is informative and very well written. You've just helped me learn how to better portray horses more realistically in a story I'm working on. I will research more based on what I've read today. You have my thanks, sir.
I would say a new cliche' is: the race of the Orcs are entirely misunderstood and are actually the good guys, the Elves are always selfish to the point that they are damn near apathetic to the plight of all other races, the race of Men becomes the new villain. We still don't use Dwarves much. ;-) Good vid. Incidentally, his notes on horses is so true. If you have actually spent time with horses (my daughter has been riding for 5 years now), you look forward to seeing that horse almost as much as a beloved pet or even a good friend. There is a sentiment among many riders, "I'd rather muck my horse's stall than deal with people." Think about it!
Yes, I totally love and respect Marcus Heitz and his Albae, but seems like it became a trend since "those days". He was the only one to write good version of negative elven race. The only one who was able to make them absolutely horrendous and still somehow creepy likeable.
at this point, anything that resembles tolkien fantasy is now a fantasy trope. just make something else. high fantasy is supposed to be any kind of elaborate alternate world.
You should try Orcs from Stan Nichols. It's a great story from the perspective of the orcs, and they aren't necessary the bad guys. He has quite a few sequels come out since I've read the first one, and I couldn't recommend it enough.
I think a good villain is one that makes the reader question where his/her loyalties lie. The morally gray character, if you will or maybe make the reader think that they are justified in their actions. I think marvel does a really good job of this and I think Tom Hiddleston said in an interview that marvel writers do a good job of making their heroes flawed and their villains heroic. I tend to agree. Great video! ❤️Nicole
Believe it or not, in Tolkien's legendarium, the majority of elves we see in Middle Earth had dark hair. The main house of elves that had blond hair was Galdriel and her family. I suppose the movies must have set forth the stereotype of blonde elves. If anyone knows differently, feel free to correct me.
That is correct...Lady Galadriel was blonde but the House of Elrond was dark haired and grey eyed as were many important human characters...I think Tolkien actually preferred dark haired and grey eyed ladies because his wife had dark hair and grey eyes.
I heard somewhere there were only like, 5 elves in the Legendarium that had reddish hair, that right? So that gives extra extra snowflake Mary Sue points to the red-haired Tauriel in the Hobbit movies on top of all the other stuff (like love somehow lets a subject dare draw a bow at her king, her fanficky love makes the later, official Legolas and Gimli friendship seem less groundbreaking... etc.)
I would say that The One Ring is an example of "The Object" done well. If anything the ring provides an active threat to the heroes throughout their journey, rather than solving all of their problems for them. Also Percy Jackson is not "That Hero". He is set up to be in the beginning, but you quickly find out that A) There are many other demigods like him, and most of the hardships he encountered were in no way unique to him. B) He is not the only child of the Big Three, in fact there are many, and C) The prophecy is not even about him. Percy Jackson in the books was a hero not because he was "destined to be one" but rather because he was brave, resourceful, deeply caring, dedicated, and skilled.
I kind of love the "That Hero" cliche because of ways you can twist it. For example, what if the hero is accepted as royalty not because of relation or prophecy, but because the family wants to be the one to say "Hey look, the hero is part of our family! Aren't we just the best?" Or, what if the hero is against joining that family for some reason? For example, if the love interest was part of that family and the hero accepting their place there would mean having to give up their feelings (or not, because that might make an interesting romance arc).
Omg when you were talking about the horse getting sick I literally was thinking of the horse in Neverending Story and then you started showing that clip! Hilarious! 😂🤣
For the "One object" clichè, you could have the main character pretend to go to break it, get it about a quarter through, and have the main plot start when they reveal that they just wanted to be in possession of it
I did a whole video about what fiction gets wrong about horses on my channel because I own horses and am so sick of the Horses Are Basically Cars trope.
To an extent but there was an episode where he got captured by swamp poachers, and another by dessert traders, and when Appa's shedding fur helped their pursuers and his subsequent fatigue from running eventually made them have to stop
Well, I don't think that the Elder Wand would fall in that description, Voldemort has it and he's a powerfull wizard, but it doesn't make him invincible, I don't think even being "The Master of Death", with al the Hallows, would make someone invincible. Also it's true that "the hero" cliché can sometimes be forced, but, again, in Harry Potter is also explained, Harry became the Chosen One, not Neville, because Voldemort chose him, but because he also, actively fought against him. And about the animals, I'm not sure that it'd help to the rythm of the story adding scenes taking care of the animal, or changing them for others more reseted, of course, it depends on the situation, but many times it's something we can imagine happening of camera because it's not that interesting, just like the protagonist taking a shower, or going to the bathroom, or cooking and eating, unless something else happens.
Very fair view! Respectfully, I disgree though. I think you may have misinterpreted some of the points I made. - The elder wand might not be 'the one object' as much as the Ring or Excalibur but in the narrative of the story it is absolutely treated as a sought after item that can change the balance of the 'war'. Whether it does in the end or not is irrelevant, the power of that object is still a major motivation for Voldemort (to attain it) hence, object of power. - You're absolutely right that if Voldemort had chosen Neville, it would have been him that was the chosen one, but it wasn't, it was Harry. I know they explain it, but my point in this video was simply that some protagonists are treated as the chosen one, or have a prophecy around them. Like Harry Potter. I never said anything negative about the Harry Potter stories mind you, I just pointed out some tropes that yes, do include Harry boy. - I'm a little confused because I never said anything about stuff happening 'off screen' with animals (unless you want to interpret the finding food and taking a poo bit that way) I was more talking about things that actively don't make sense. Like riding the same horse for days without them getting sick or dying from fatigue. That has nothing to do with stuff happening behind the scenes. I'm sure you're right that having a chapter about a tired horse wouldn't be all that interesting, but it's no reason to inexplicably make the animal immortal y'know? Wow, that's a lot of words. Anyway, just wanted to explain myself. Thanks for watching Monica 😊
7:35 literally right as you mentioned George RR Martin I scrolled passed a video of him talking about complex characters. *I didn’t know this video was in 4D lol*
I feel like those fantasy races are too well-established and accepted to be just tropes or cliches it's as if they are just an aspect of fantasy literature
Totally agree with the 3rd one. I hate villains that have no personal motivation and no reason to be villainous in the first place. Just makes no sense. I absolutely love morally gray villains.
Your grievances are very much valid. I've been working on a story, well mostly just bits and pieces here and there with an over all outline, that avoids all that. It's basically a story that destroys and desecrates the idea of a hero. Although it doesn't have a boring ending like game of thrones tv series did even though I like how he basically showed how myths are just myths and it was hilarious watching people come up with hair brained theories based upon them.
I have never watched game of thrones but I read a book ones where the main character defeated the villain but at the end of the story my sister and I both questioned if the main character was evil too. the villain was a terrible man who raped children and let his country go to ruin around him while he was given food on golden plasters. but I cant help thinking that the king's(villain's) terribleness lead us to ignore the main characters faults. the main character was a prince(he killed his own father, used people, was bent on revenge, accidentally killed 2 of his brothers(and only grieved one of them), and refused to believe that is was any part his fault.) at the end of the story the person who had been his friend, adviser, and love interest had looked at him in terror and thought "I made this man" showing that he(the main character and prince) had too much power and was a force that was completely unstoppable with no hesitation at all. to the people who I know who have read it the main characters are not necessarily sound of mind or heros. they are people, humans, and humans are destructive and powerful and dangerous and that is the feeling that the first book ended with. it is one of the best books I have read and it was a comic!
Camdalf! 😂 it's not easy steering away from these cliches when writing fantasy! Especially "the chosen one". I feel like you have to have multiple characters doing little things to change the world, rather than one character doing one big thing, if you want to avoid that one. And of course that takes a lot more planning. I have an idea for a series with multiple characters but don't feel ready to write something so complicated so instead I'm first writing a prequel to it with only one main character. And that character does fall in to the "chosen one"-cliche. I'm doing my best to still make it interesting and unique though!
I know this wasn't your point, but fun fact - horses take a shit whenever they want. They just shit while they're walking/running. Thank you for bringing this up though, before cars horses were VERY important creatures - not just for transportation but people were fucking attached to them, especially war horses. They were CULTURALLY important.
I like how Game of Thronea subverts the dark lord archetype. He is still played straight as a trope, but instead of being black clad and living in a lava lair, he is literally called "White walker" and lives in an icy wilderness.
With the 'Object,' I think that Tolkien had a better 'Object' before it was even a cliche. A little bit of a play on that. The Ring can give you a lot of power but it corrupts you. This is why characters like Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli couldn't have been the ringbearers because they are much more powerful than Hobbits, meaning the more powerful you are the more power you will gain from the Ring and the more corrupt they will be. This is why someone who is weak has to be the ringbearer if they want to get rid of a threat to Middle-earth.
-The Tolkien Formula 1:50 1# Races 2:55 (Don't use the generic formula) 2# The Object 5:15 (Give the object some dimension) 3# The Dark Lord 6:30 (The villain is the hero of his own story) 4# Animals as Props 8:20 (Make the animal a character) 5# 'The Chosen One 10:35 (Find character motivations other than tragedy)
The audience looooves the hidden royalty/Chosen One plot. Look how mad people are that the Targaryen thing didn't hold up enough for Jon Snow, and Johnson daring to write that Rey's parents are "no one."
"That" hero is an archetypal character as old a civilization. Perhaps one of the first being Sargon of Akkad, who was born of a Priestess, abandoned as a baby in a wicker basket to float down a river to be adopted by the royal family (Moses was based on him; it's that old).
Dwarves are basically personified "masculinity": Hairy, logical, strong, stoic, builders. The Gorons are similar in the Legend of Zelda. Even sharing the trait of being an unchanging and ancient race, and going as far as not having any "females" at all.
Oh I hate cliche fantasy races so much. I completely started to avoid fantasy with elves, dwarfs, travelling group of heroes, trying to find some stupid Mac Guffin to save the word against the ultimate lawless bad anyone who have no motivation to be bad...I love books like Mythago Wood of Robert Holdstock, but writers like him are so freakin rare. Those who just create their own world on their own rules...yes, he has some cliche traits, but other than that he wrote novels based on his own understanding of time and space and power of human mind, it is so beautiful. I wish there was more of these.
"Probably don't go with Dark Lord." Maybe I shouldn't have been laughing at this as much as I should've. But its obvious simplicity was brilliant. How about, "The Darker Lord…"
About horses, you made me think about Arthax from Neverending Story, he dies in the Swamp of Sorrow, it had such a emotional weight, he was not just a prop.
Thanks for the tips. I'm writing a book right now and trying to keep it as fresh and cliche free as possible, but I think it's sometimes a difficult thing to do. There's nothing new under the sun, it's all been done before, and so on. When you've been reading fantasy you're whole life, it can be easy for some of those common tropes to slip into your stories. Great video and I'll check out some of your others.
About great villains having motivations and needing to think they're heroes: I partially agree. Some villains are maniacal and seek to kill or be evil for the thrill.
Emerald Eel Entertainment. Especially cuz we see examples of this in real life. Some people are just malevolent in ways that can’t be at all justified.
I do 2-5, but 2-4 I bend. Like quite a lot 2 - I made the character make the object and the object can just do very specific things. It can certainly not end wars. And like it's a really small part of the story, really 3 - I call "the big bad" the Shadow. But it's more like "the big understood" that everybody hates as he must kill people to survive. He's actually not that bad and don't dress in black 4 - The horses of my world has a bigger heart and a bigger belly 5 - That hero... You got me there... But he's not the only one
There’s a difference between a cliche and an archetype. Archetypes represent fundamentally true aspects of the human experience, while cliches are common aspects of stories that are reused out of laziness or lack of creativity.
thank you for the video, I really love the part of "make the hero special because of the choices they make, not who they are" that's exactly what i was looking for.
Really good video. I was looking for fantasy story beats but instead I got your video that not only game me the elements of fantasy but also how to put your own spin on it.
I think armor being literal plot armor protecting heroes and not villains is a cliche, like orcs in LOTR were so heavily armored but hero swords go through bad guy armor like butter for some reason.
Its funny because with the exception of one fantasy universe with dwarves elves and men that I can think of tolkeins where always incredibly more complex. Dwarves weren't always builders and smiths in tolkiens works, they where also artists, explorers, merchants and craftsmen. and even then, the elves where the best craftsman and smiths. Everyone else runs into the world of hats problem, where every dwarf is a warrior smith and every elf is a holier then thou perfect god being. The only other fantasy I know of with these races (and there could be others but I don't personally know of them) is Dragon Age, and that's less because their cultures are more complex and more because their cultures have basically fallen. Dwarves WHERE the master builders. Elves WHERE the pure immortals. Now Dwarves are teetering on extinction with only one city left, more deeply involved in polotics then war or building. And elves are mostly slaves, their culture, language, writing, history lost to time. Now resigned to either small nomadic tribes or city slums. They don't fall into world of hats... kinda, because they where forced to change hats.
Even though I'm super late here, I always feel compelled to add that a realistic villain does not necessarily need a motive that toes a moral line. Some people are really just looking out for themselves at the expense of everyone else. Stuff like killing puppies just because lol evil is bad writing, but while a villain who's a villain just for personal gain may not be that philosophical, likeable villain, they can be a pretty darn realistic one.
Races, Japanese fantasy story usually have Elves, Dwarves, Humans, Orcs and Goblins acting as two different races(So you get the Sauron kind taller, warmonger ones as Orcs and the short croach like ones Goblins). They also very commonly have the Beast people(Cat is probably the most common and popular with Wolf being very close) that range from having only ears and tails on a human body or a full furry body and animal head replacing the human one. Many other races you like Cobalt, Lizardman, Draconic people, right out Dragon turning into human form and live in that, Harpies, Winged people(Angels without halos), Faeries, even Slime people becomes really common recently
With your example of a horse getting sick, or something "realistic" like that, I go back to one of the last episodes of Game Of Thrones where Daenerys is addressing all of her troops, and in typical Hollywood fashion she is just speaking with nothing to aid her voice projection and yet everyone is able to hear her just fine -it would've been a great "realistic" touch if somebody handed her like a horn to use as a megaphone-like device that would make her voice louder.
So, playing around with the clichés a little... 1: "What do you mean, the elves have cities of crystal spires?" 2: "Yeah, the One Object is a superweapon that destroys anything animate within two miles of it. We know where it is, and only a complete idiot would go near it." 3: "Dark Lord? The Northern Dark Lord, the Southern Dark Lord, the Dark Lord of the Marshes or... oh, the Dark Lord Brogan's Farmstead, you say? Well, everyone's got to start somewhere, but you're sure you don't want to pick a title that's a little, you know, distinct?" 4: "Why i arrived late to the battle? My stupid horse had a foal. Couldn't leave that behind, could I?" 5: "Oh, i'm the last of my noble lineage, and there's a prophecy that I will... die horribly in order to stop the approaching evil? Excuse me, i have to go forth and multiply, right now. Screw that prophecy!" ;)
Um, excuse me, a regular person rising up to save the day is the BIGGEST cliche. Usually a plucky young farmboy who's village got slaughtered by the bad guys. (And sure some of those find out about their secret heritage, but not all of them. And they still start out as ordinary people.)
To avoid cliches avoid lack of fundimental in writing.you won't believe how many times.there was a coincidental power and somehow born in a rich family stories exist where the kid is homeless and smart.i would do so.ethibg like protagonist is also nobility since he was spoiled as a kid he always believed that people can give him what he wanted so when his parents gave him the task to get the power and make the power only could be wielded by the most kindest person.so the story could be a lesson on kindness and how hard work isn't free or some shit like that
I'm writing a story right now where I addressed the issues with 'the object.' First or all, there are thirteen (though only twelve are known of at first) and only 'people from another world' can use them, which is also the only reason the main characters are even in the story; the locals are abusing fact that is the only limitation to use them to defeat the 'Demon King.' Though things get iffy after the MCs learn that summoning people from another world costs lives and other spoilery details after that.
one of my ideas was to have a hero turn out to be an orphan and secretly royal last of there line and so on, BUT actually having loving adopted parents, being a hero just because, not be the only main character and not the leader of the group and either only having small clues but never having the character find out or have them find out but reject it because they wouldn't know how to rule.
I've written a fantasy saga (soon to be released in comic book form) and my villain is an evil ninja who murders his lord and takes over his kingdom. He wields a magic sword with interdimensional powers, the same as my hero. Then my hero becomes possessed by the spirit of the being who created the sword and turns against his friends. Then another hero fights him for possession of the blade and wins, but is able to resist the evil of the blade. My main villain is a totally smug bastard with no redeeming characteristics, which i think is a fair approximation of some assholes. However , hes not ugly and hes not a dark spirit or some such, hes a warrior and follows bushido.
So here's my world: the elves have degenerated into mindless animals, the other races have interbred with humanity and each other that they have all become indistinguishable, the main character is a merchant's son who found a sword in some ruins and is now kinda possessed by the spirit of a warrior from an ancient race that predates even the elves, they now walk the land hunting down the degenerate elves, and various other ancient monsters.
I think with the last one that you mentioned is that it is the Hero's Journey which is more of a story type than a cliche. Is that story style more popular in fantasy sure.
In my stories. I made Elves inbred creatures and they are embarrased of the fact that they are inbred and they do whatever they can to cover it up. Thus the reason why the come off as "pure". My dwarves are just short humans under discrimination and they decided to group up a fuck off elsewhere to build their own civilization. Orcs in my stories are Mongolian orcs. Extremely deadly with the bow and and a force to be reckoned. They've made an empire once out of their superiority but it fell apart from inside out when the leader died. Then my special race are rabbit people. Basically replaced the orriginal role of dwarves. They got big arms and big legs. Extremely agile and can dig through dirt very fast.
FAR too many fantasy writers have studied Tolkien's setting, but not his thinking. They look to other fantasy novels for inspiration instead of the sources that Tolkien himself looked toward: the myths, legends, fairy tales, folk tales, sagas, epics, romances, etc. Tolkien certainly wasn't the first to write epic fantasy. Just check this list out: www.unboundworlds.com/2017/05/4-epic-fantasy-novels-written-lord-rings/ R.E.Howard, H. P. Lovecraft, Arthur Machen, Clarke Ashton Smith, Manly Wade Wellman, L. Frank Baum, Fritz Leiber, Lin Carter, and C. L. Moore (just to name a few) were also writing Fantasy before Tolkien. All except for Lovecraft are underrated and need more love.
I won't spoil the thing or reveal the name because that might ruin this story, but, there is a story where the "light" dude is actually a baddie and the "dark" person is the goodie. I liked that subversion and would not mind seeing it in other stories.
I think Elder Scrolls did by far the best take on the common fantasy races trope. Not only do they avoid planet of hats by having diffrent competing factions within each race, they also changed some of the pereived personalities alltogether. Like the Bosmer (wood elves) that purley eat meat, because it would be blasphemic to eat plants - the trees are sacred to them. Or the Dwemer (dwarves) who already had hight-technology, but for some reason died out (in Skyrim it seems because their slvaes turned against them and just wiped them out, but that's not the sole reason). The Altmer (high elves) who split into diffrent groups and subsequently even diffrent races over time, with diffrent live styles and agendas. And - I think most crucial of all - they also have diffrent people within the humans as well, with diffrent cultures and practices and mindsets.
I think too a lot DnD is influential in these kinds of stories too. Also making races where everyone is the same in the race, which is unrealistic. Diversity within the fantastical races is important, to achieve this I like to look at fantastical races as species similar to that of humans. Humans look different, have different personalities, have different goals, speak different languages, ect. So should different fantastical races. I think a lot of people associate a fantastical race with a real world culture, e.g. elves are usually of European decent. I have suffered from doing this too and when I catch myself I start to reorganize the attributes of that in particular race.
Hey uh, I'm writing a book kinda thingy on Wattpad about these things (???). Basically, there are Night Walkers and Day Dancers. Night Walkers were formed by the moon god as revenge, they steal stuff from DDs. Day Dancers are typically rich and do more human like things (school, carnivals, theatre, ect). Obviously these aren't all the things about them, but uh yeah. It's kinda lame but I'm not really a writer, so uhh.
The One Ring is kind of a bad example in that scenario. Iirc, it's not really *useful* to you unless you're The Dark Lord Sauron. It's just promising power to people so that it can get back to Sauron, and if Sauron has it, it's dangerous.
This video is great. I keep rewatching this. I like your idea of the Tolkein formula. That summarizes things so well. Tolkein is the great granddaddy of fantasy authors. He wrote Lord of the Rings, and that became a hit. Then other authors wrote knockoffs from that, and together they expanded fantasy into a whole genre of modern literature. When there are too many knockoffs there is a formula. The worst I have seen in terms of cliche is the TV show Legend of the Seeker. I only watched the first two episodes, but that is enough t get the gist of what the story is like. There are so many cliches that I can't take it seriously. I ended up laughing hard. I don't think that is the reaction the show is going for. Now I am wondering about whether to watch the series again. It can be so bad its good. You did give a good list of five cliche's. I am guilty of using all of them. I use the trick of having them, but not playing them completely straight. #1 is fantasy races. When races become cliche, they can become stereotypes. World of Warcraft is really good at subverting this. The elves are goody goody at first. Then they dabble in magic too much and they become currupt. When they get currupted, thier skin turns from dark to light. That is an inversion of the sterotypes of dark and light. The dwarvs are into mining at first. Then they get into archeology instead. The humans may seem good and heroic at first. Then they got into slavery which is bad. There was even a human, Medivh, who got demonic curruption. My favorite example is the orcs. Orcs tend to be coded based on nonwhite people like Mongolians or Africans. When they are the only evil race amoung the good white European coded races, it starts to get unfortunate implications of racism. In World of Warcraft there is a great subversion. Orcs were evil and currupted by the demons. They invaded Azeroth and fought the humans. Later the humans defeated and enslaved the orcs. Later the orcs became good guys that fight against demons and other bad guys. The orcs still fight against humans. That is the core of the fight between Horde and Alliance respectively. My favorite character in the lore is Thrall. He is an orc that saved orcs from both demons and humans. He lead the orcs to a time of being good and forming the current Horde faction.World of Warcraft is a huge improvement from Lord of the Rings in terms of political correctness. It is easier to pull it off in modern times. I do however find it unsettling that the more humanlike races are still coded European, while the other races get other cultures. Orcs and Trolls are Africans. Tauren are Native Americans. Pandarian are Asian. I do have race in my fantasy, but it is different. I go for a more realistic approach. There isn't the creepy othering of non Europeans as being more like monsters or animals. Instead I make different races more human. I have a group of heroic characters of various races. Yet they have realistic variation of race and remian human. There is a variation of skin color. Some members have extra skin folds making thier eyes appear to be a different shape. This is like Asians. I eve show variation. Luspear is the protagonist. She has brown skin and black hair, kind of like a Native American. Soram is the deuteragonist. He has white skin like a European. My favorite race is elves. I did add some elf like qualities for my humans. They live in beutiful fancy houses. They are good with magic. They are good with nature. They may even have long lifespans. I am a big fan of both Lord of the Rings Elves and World of Warcraft elves. When I play the latter I do use eleves as my two main characters. I use both night elves and blood elves. #2 is the object. What you are describing is actually called a Maguffin. It is a silly name for this cliche. It was coined by film maker Alfred Hitcock. In my early days of writing, I did this really bad. I regret that. Now I downplay it. Luspear acquires the Light Sphere as her Maguffin. She acquires it early on in her adventure. Then she uses its power to make herself more powerful. Then she can better tackle the problems and conflicts in the story. The downside of a Maguffin is that the audience won't be as invested as the characters. So having the Maguffin be used for something else helps the audience care. The worst Maguffins are those that can be replaced with something else without significantly changing the story. I do like how you say that a Maguffin shouldn't be a total game changer. That is that case of my story. When Luspear gets the Light Sphere, that doesn't give her the ability to solve the main problem. Whenshe goes overboard with this, she actually makes things worse. The key is for Luspear and Soram to work together. I did get inspiration from the Fisher King legend. So I made an alternative goal of making the land better instead of gaining the item. The Light Sphere is a means to this end. Luspear also learns a lot of magical knowlage. Maybe a more compelling and fresh goal is to learn the secret of magic. You do give good examples of Maguffins in fantasy. Another good example is the infinity stones in Marvel. I heard one call this the glowy thing. That is so amusing. So the main Marvel plot is about a purple villain trying to collect the powerful stones and wreck havok on the universe. Then a ragtag team of diverse heroes work to stop him. As a big fan of fantasy and Tolkein I find this story oddly familiar, very familiar. I do find it nifty that science fiction can put a spin on old stories by putting them in space. Star Warth is the mythical hero's journey in space. Avatar is Pocahontas in space. The Marvel story is like that too. It is Lord of the Rings in space. #3 is the Dark Lord. The Dark Lord is my pet peeve of fantasy cliche's. I don't like this because it makes for poor character development for the antagonist. They are one dimensional and all evil. I did a full blown subversion. In my story, there is a Dark Lord, who did cause problems. Luspear goes on a quest to stop him. Later she learns who the Dark Lord is like. He turned out to be her friend, Soram. He was a good guy deep down, and the harm was just an accident. Luspear and the Dark Lord end up falling in love, and use the power of love to solve the problems. Luspear does get the title of Light Lord. It is something I made up. When you said bright lord, it was really close. I did subvert the stereotype for light being goody goody. Luspear is the hero of the story. However she did accidently burned things down with her light powers. So light isn't always good. Luspear overcomes it with the help of the Dark Lord. The only dark lords I like in fiction are Darth Vader in Star Wars and Arthas in World of Warcraft. They are fleshed out better. They started out heroic. Then they turned to the dark side and got bad. Darth Vader does save Luke from Palpatine, and that is touching. Thanos is the Marvel version of the Dark Lord. He takes the redeamable part a step further. He wrecks havock on the universe. Yet at the same time he tries to solve the problem of overpopulation. Thanos is actually one of the best Marval villains. I like your Martain reference. I love to have gray characters. Martain is amazing at delivering them. A good example is Cersei Lannister. Some fans call her a villain. I may not root for Circe, but I don't think of her as being one. I think of her as simply being one of the players of Game of Thrones. One can root for her or against her and it would be totally justified either way. Cersei may be nasty and antisocial. Yet she also is incredible at surviving the brutal Game of Thrones. Both sides come from her cunning and savvy nature. Cersei does have a redeamable characteristic of loving her twin brother and thier children. I would argue she loves her brother too much. Eww. Fantasy has a convention of good triumphing over evil. In this case, there is a wierd irony that Cersei Lannister survives far longer than her rival, Ned Stark. Ned is honerable, which has a traoff in being both moral and naive. I rooted for Ned, and I feel so sorry for the poor thing.
#4 is animals as props. I have actually heard of this one. I think the reason for this problem is that authors don't know about animals. As an animal lover, I get really irritated when people get things about animals wrong. I have noticed a weird mistake lately. A person can have a cat or dog, and get the gender wrong. I have even seen male pets get girls names. It is weird because distinguishing the genders is so easy. In many mammals, the males have their naughty bits exposed more. So that makes it easy to tell them apart from the females. Both cats and dogs have this distinction. I wonder how can people get it messed up. Humans have the same distinction. It is covered up by clothing, but it is there. Comparing the animals to humans makes things even easier. Horses can be a big problem in terms of inaccuracy. People are so used to cars and take them for granted. They don't realize the implications of horses being not only vehicles but also animals. Horses have the same kinds of needs other animals do. That makes them much higher maintenance. It is like how it takes a lot of effort to raise and train a dog. There is a difference in that horses are bigger animals and so need more resources. The one good thing about horses is that I find them far more interesting than cars. They also provide better companionship. In fantasy I like to go beyond regular horses and get into fantasy horses like unicorns and pegasi. Horses have the usual gender distinction among mammals. So distinguishing between a stallion and a mare is super easy. I thought of some funny names for people that are still confused about gender. This is Sue the stallion and Mulan the mare. Both are alliterations. Sue refers to a Johnny Cash song. Mulan refers to a hero of Chinese legend. I have animals in my story. They are not realistic either, but they do things that are different. The humans can turn into animals. They can also summon multiple forms, which are extensions of themselves. I like this superpower, so I use it a lot. It does solve a lot of things. The main thing is that theanimals can beattle like Pokemon, without as much implication to illegal cockfighting and dogfighting. I think of it as like legal boxing but with magic powers. There are other things. I do go beyond the fantasy race cliche. Having animals provides more diversity than humanoid races. I am sick to death of Disney movies having silly animal sidekicks. So having animals as forms allow them to be important characters. Luspear gets a dragon as an animal companion. The dragon is named Soram. Over time he is revealed to be a human. Even later he is revealved to be the Dark Lord. Luspear eventually gains the ability to turn into a horse. The humans have the usual needs like food, shelter, clothing and sleep. I address this by making accommodations magically convenient. A home has magic to keep stoking up with food and other supplies. There are two variants of the home I figured out. One is to have the creature use excellent transportation ability to go to a home. The trip is very quick, like a reasonable commute to work. Another is to have a small portable ball. Then one goes into the ball. Magic makes the ball really big on the inside. I provides living accommodations as well as extensive storage space. In one version of my story the animals needs did come up. Luspear was adventuring in a cave over a period of many days. She evetually got worn out. So Soram let her stay in his ball, where she could recuperate. #5 is that hero. You were good at combining several cliche's related to the main character. Another one I would like to add is farm boy. The farm boy has been done to death. I think Harry Potter is refreshing for being a suburban boy instead. He does live under the stairs. So like a peasant, he is still treated like dirt. It is like how Cinderella gets to live in a nice house, but is still treated like dirt. The main hero example in Lord of the Rings is Frodo. Ironically he was not a farm boy. He comes from a place with lots of farming, but he is more of an aristocrat. If anybody in the fellowship is a farmboy, it is actually Sam. Still the derivatives make the hero a farm boy. So the cliche is that the hero is a farm boy, but they discover that they are a long lost prince. I have Luspear as that hero. I do change things up. I actually have an inverse in terms of economic class. Luspear was a princess, and she later finds out she is the daughter of rebellious peasants. Interestingly Moses also has the inverse. I am too fond of the chosen one cliche. So I downplay it. Luspear is destened for greatness. However she doen't learn about it untill she is almost done with her adventure. Luspear is motivated to adventure because she wants to, not because some choosing forces her to. This is a more powerful character motivation, and it works better. Luspear was once a spiritual being of creation. Then she reincarnated in human form. She eventual goes through adventures and magic ultimately becoming a queen of the gods. This makes Luspear special. I can't resist specialness. Maybe all heros are special to some extant even if they are not chosen. Soram is also an incarnation of a spiritual being of creation. He does a lot of magic study simply because he wanted to. He ultamitly becomes king of the gods. Luspear and Soram are also soulmates with true love. I don't know whether this is cliche. I do find it easy to screw up romance. So I played it safe and dowplay it. I have them in love, have both be a duo of creation beings, and have telepathy powers. I don't think this is too overt. There are other overused things about hero which I go against. Heros are often white guys, and I am sick to death of this. So Luspear is hero, who is a woman of color. That is different. Heros are also pure good, which is bland and boring. It is an inverse of the Dark Lord problem. So I give Luspear a nasty side. She does her best to do the right thing. However sometimes she does something imoral. A major thing was accidently burning something down. Luspear attempted to fight the Dark Lord. That made the problems worse instead of better. It may be wrong to judge and attack the Dark Lord before getting to know him. I think grey heros are better. Martain is good at delivering gray heros. Daenerys does what she think is right and liberate people from oppression. However she can get too carried away with her dragon fire. Jon Snow does what he thinks is right, and helps the Free Folk escape to the south. However he can get too carried away with upsetting people that don't like free folk. Danerys and Jon are both heroic characters of Game of Thrones.However they have screwed so bad that is provoke thier own assasinations.
OOF The chosen/last of line/orphan hits hard, BUT HEAR ME OUT. Last of line, family has been disputing these monsters for years, slowly thinning them out. Theres one member left, shes fantastic, great, beautiful & a force to be reckoned with. She's in a final battle with the last of the monster and they both die. Secretly she has a daughter, who lives with her dad, who is not dead, but goes insane, and somehow the daughter ends up in an orphanage like place. When people I this world turn 14 they go to this place & their powers are wakened. And she finds out who she is and spends most of the story hiding her real identity and trying to just be normal. Meanwhile a guy who becomes the main hero & also antagonist is her mentor, but is really just messing with her because he knows who she is & doesn't want her to take back the hero title her family once had. & throughout the story she hears people talking about what life would be like if the family was still in power and it gives her a lot of stress & fear & becomes more of a psychological story, just in a fantasy setting... Terrible explanation & super vague (If you want more details I have them), but its already super long. But lmk what you think.
