The "analyze details" part really resonated with me. I write detective fiction, and sometimes things just work out or fall into place. Facts I just sort of brought up at the beginning are major plot point in the end - without actually planing! I'm still surprised on how this works haha But also, making a mini-outline or checklist helps. Especially for me, writing detectives, it feels like I'm a detective as well while writing, figuring out the story through the characters and how they would act. It feels pretty natural :D
A fun story about analyzing details as they appear: I'm in a project right now where I keep coming up against problems, and each time I solve one, it seems the solution is always found in a detail I had abandoned earlier. For example: The very first sentence I EVER scribbled for the thing was "Thad Callahan was so old he could remember winter." Thad is my mc's grandfather, who is raising him, and the setting is a planet where the cycle of seasons lasts almost a century. Now, I did a lot of planning in between that sentence and starting a proper draft, and somewhere along the way, Thad became a couple decades younger than I originally imagined. When I got to the first scene with him, it fell apart. I couldn't understand how Thad's grandson could have so much tension with him, without coming off as totally unreasonable and unlikable. After setting the scene aside for weeks, I realized my error was in abandoning Thad's extreme age. If Thad is on death's doorstep, he can genuinely have his grandson's best interest at heart while the grandson can reasonably remain bitter about the fact that his only family can't really be there for him the way he needs. My solution was literally the very first thing I ever thought about Thad. Trust your instincts! Honestly, after years of hearing that I MUST plan, I sense that this book is going to end up becoming my discovery renaissance - with the help of this channel!
Micro outlining is something i figured out on my own because i could never connect with either 100% pantsing or outlining, since I feel like no outline at all lacks the bit of structure i need, yet a thorough outline upfront is too constricting, and so micro outlining is a great compromise. I've always called it short term outlining though haha
Strong narratives may be micro-outlined or carefully plotted but the important thing is to give the characters room to make discoveries. Nabokov is a great mentor in many ways but he was wrong when he said characters ought never to run away from their creator. Good thrillers may be carefully plotted but they don't feel like that so characters are never overly determined as Nabokov's can be. *Nothing Can Hurt You* Nicola Maye Goldberg, *The Comfort of Monsters* Willa C Richards, *Death Notice* Zhou Haohui, *Kinder Than Solitude* Yiyun Li, *Sell Us The Rope* Stephen May, *The Lifeboat* Charlotte Rogan, *Cat Step* Alison Irvine.
I'm like you, I'm a discoverer but I know how important outlining is because I'm also a journalist. Whilst outlining articles is easy for me, I find fiction (esp. longform) more problematic. My instinct is to ride by the seat of my proverbials, because over planning kills the spontaneity for me. However, I've always struggled to finish things that way. My approach has been to find some happy medium between the "maths" approach and a more organic one. I tend to think about theme and character and setting and what I want to say, then hunt around for a plot structure from a book or a movie that kind of fits and I loosely hang my story on that. It just means I have kind of a roadmap that can keep me from getting too lost, but I can also ignore it and take a detour. I have no idea if I'm making sense! Love the channel 💖
TIL not only about discovery writing, but that *I'm* a discovery writer! :D One of the things I've found works for me, especially when I get stuck, is to take a step back and read the whole thing again (maybe not the whole thing, maybe just the chapter), and try to find that train of thought that I lost. And, if I can't find the train, I go to a different station, so to speak, and get a new ticket. Re-reading not only allows me an opportunity to edit and find that train of thought, but also pick up stray threads to weave back into the braid, as you put it (new favorite analogy!) And maybe one of those threads is the new train!
I love your point about a simple plot making room for complexity in character and idea. The plot of my novel isn't actually complicated, but it's a lot of things happening in a short period of time, so getting everything laid out clearly and connected efficiently/concisely was a complicated task--and I found that earlier drafts had more convoluted plot development and it squeezed out character complexity. As I simplified things in later drafts, character complexity naturally blossomed in its place
I had the exact same thing happen in my novel!! Some places where the plot was a bit convoluted in the first draft really got in the way of character development - it was surprising but interesting to see that revising the book was more about simplifying the plot than complicating it
When to slow down and zoom in on the details? When the story arrives at a point that does one of the following: - Reveals character - Elicits tension - Changes the state of affairs Also, since specificity is a core pillar of good writing, and since writing by discovery tends to build the story one small detail after another, it is actually *outlining* that writes the story backwards-- from generalizations and abstractions to concrete and specific details.
I guess my best tip that I can think of is this: when you get to a good stopping place writing, take some time to start the next section. Like three sentences or so. It reminds you where you were headed, what is the next focus, and it immediately focuses your work. No more: what am I going to write about? The sentences fuel your imagination. You could also take brief notes instead. Really keeps you going. Sorry if that was obvious, but it has been so helpful to me! :)
I do the same! Sometimes I stop midsentence or write the first sentence of a paragraph in order to start writing faster in the next session. I also sometimes micro-outline for the next writing session.
I honestly love micro-outlining. I outline three chapters at a time, at most. It's worked really well for me, as when I completely outline chapters for a novel, I don't feel that I have enough flexibility that I need in my writing process.
I've been micro outlining out of "laziness" not realizing that's what I was doing but I feel like writing 3 chapters at a time is super helpful. I'm going to try that!
I write solely for myself. A great line from TX singer-songwriter Blaze Foley comes to mind: “I could build me a castle of memories just to have somewhere to go.” I write to live in, to experience, the worlds I create-to have somewhere to go. I have found that the surest way to forever lock myself out of a possible world or adventure is to outline or plan it. Such worlds suffer instant death because I lose interest in them; I already know how they come out. So for me, the tip is to take a little time (maybe with a few cups of coffee, or glasses of wine, or just a long drive or a nice sunset) and think over general (very general) ideas-a character or characters, a world, and a problem or need. Sometimes it’s just a scene or two. I wait until something develops gravitational pull, then go with it. Sometimes takes a few false starts, but I know it when it happens, and I love the feeling (kinda like a runner’s high) and the results. There are great tips in this video because it is indeed easy to get lost or distracted when discovery writing. I particularly like the focus on consequences and “threads,” and the reminder that the solution is the journey (one must write to explore and discover). I must admit, however, that micro-outlining sounds a lot like . . . outlining ; )
One thing I did with the novel I'm currently revising (watched your videos as I drafted, was very helpful!) was in a certain point where I had laid out everything I wanted for the book, but I didn't know where to go next. I kind of see the first 20k words as rifling through a toybox, selecting the things I want to play with, and when my arms are full I need to decide what to do with them. So this was that point. I had an idea but it was so incongruous with the things I'd laid out I physically couldn't write it. And I didn't know what to do. So I asked myself a few questions that basically boiled down to: 1) Who is the most interesting person we can encounter next? and 2) What is the most interesting thing that person can want, or want to do? The answer had to come from everything I'd laid out (a la your "Write from consequences" advice), and the answer came to me fairly quickly. I had to do the same thing a bit later in the book and the kind of answer was a lot different for that second instance - the actual answer was a little distraction from the main plot that lasted a couple chapters. I don't know, just asking myself "What's the most interesting thing that can happen next?" has proven really effective in getting me on track when my spidey sense tells me the idea I thought was going to work is putting up a ton of resistance, and as a discovery writer it's pretty important to me that I get the next scene RIGHT.
I had this one project where I had build a whole world, characters, and outlining their motivations and goals. The ideas were scattered everywhere in documents and bullet threads. But the conflict was becoming to immaterial with everyone only being ideas I was completely at a lost as to how to write any story. One day I just threw up my hands and dropped it because I was stuck in development hell and was getting no where for the better half of a year. I write best when I am trying to capture a feeling so I literally just sat down to write something with the aesthetic of witchy cottagecore with some worldbuilding elements that needed a use. Sure enough it popped off. Immediately. I'm still yet to get attached to these new characters, but my head space is leagues better off now.
These ideas are amazing, super helpful. Thank you! I think discovery writing can be a practice that everyone can apply, even if they're not a discovery rider. Or maybe that's just my personal psychology--I definitely do a bit of planning and a bit of pantsing. But I feel like everything in this video can be a great way it of brainstorming, learning about your story, and figuring out what happens next.
Alas I discovered I am both: the outline plots the course I must steer to reach the goal (the end); but getting to the actual ink on the blank page, the characters dictate how they act. I discover aspects about how they interact clear during the writing process than only outlining. Good presentation. Thanks
something that I found out on my writting process (and Brandon Sanderson pointedout on his lecture abou creative writing) is that my first draft is a big outline.
Apologies in advance for mixing metaphors. Something I encountered recently that I can distill into advice: if you need a catalyst to push your plot or your characters in a direction, ask yourself if you already have a lever that does what you need if you just pull it the right way. I sometimes run into issues with introducing new characters or events to move the plot along when I already have a perfectly good VP of Important Stuff or Supporting Character's Brother We Met That One Time I can use to do the same thing. It's kind of a specific case of "Keep It Simple Stupid" and "make sure you weave in your loose threads", but still, I think "do I really need an upholsterer's hammer I'll never use again, or can I use one of the 7 hammers I already have?" is a good question to ask yourself, especially when you get stuck on triggering the next cause cascade
I like to outline after I've written a scene. I do this on a yellow legal pad. I just make a quick note of who was in the scene, what happened, and any other detail. This helps to spot any holes in the narrative and helps me know where to pick up where I left off. Learned this from Dean Wesley Smith, who is an amazingly prolific discovery writer. And, I also edit as I go, which is something else he talks about (he calls it cycling).
5:30 i have not someone describe the sort of process i feel i have so accurately. Like ppl always talk about the vague plotters vs pantsers and thats it. But the way you say is like its picking my brain cuz its exactly what I’ve discovered recently I love about my writing process. I took some half-baked idea from years ago, wrote a third major draft starting a new pretty much in the middle of the old draft, in some sub-plot, now months later the story has shifted this character once main/central to the sidelines and changed everything, the entire perspective has reversed and the scale too and its worked really well. And yeah the internet really favours plotters, there’s a whole aesthetic to it that ppl love, and i dont blame em. But pantsers really get no love, its like the King vs Martin interview, two sides of the same coin
I sometimes outline scenes by hand. This way you get an overview of what should happen next, and at the same time, writing it out by hand forces your mind to slow down and you're able to "look around" in the scene. What i also like is the Nabokov-Methode. He used to outline scenes on index cards. This way he was able to sort scenes out, that didn't fit, while also seeing where gaps were to be filled.
I personally fall right in the middle between discovery and outlining. I will come up with an idea, and I might plop down a few ideas. Maybe I know the major beats of the story or a handful of them. If I'm unable to be writing, I will note more points for the outline. But I discovery write between plot points. Sometimes those points can change, because I think it's important for the characters to discover themselves, and they sometimes go off in a different direction. So I guess I have a limited outline, and discovery write in between. I will often start writing a story with just a few points, but as I begin writing, I will fill out the outline, because writing has helped me discover where to go. So, yeah, I think I fall pretty firmly in the center.
You saved me by this video. I write reports from research as a part of my job and how I'm comfortable to write them is completely opposite from others. I had been struggling to do the job in "their way." But you reassured that I can keep my way with a little twirk to achieve the maximum result. Thank you so much.
YES all of this. If I may offer a spin on the braiding threads thing, I've been thinking of it as a river valley. Little water sources feed into bigger ones, all in response to the landscape. If the flow is locked by character or world impasse, that might need to be resolved. Also, yes to keeping it simple. Richness and complexity aren't the same thing.
I just found out that I'm a DISCOVERY OUTLINER, and these are good tips for outlining. Let me explain. :) Yep, I'm quite 90% outliner, but most of these tips can be applied to my outlining process. (Good, useful tip, thank you, Shaelin! :D) Especially tip to analyze details. I have a principle that I cannot invent the story. Otherwise it's artificial. I must discover it, deduct the next phase of it from all details and information I have so far. It doesn't mean I outline linearly. I constantly jump to between different parts of the story, but the key is to deduct and discover the missing parts rather than "investing" them.
I'm always so excited whenever you post another discovery writing video (or short story video, for that matter) because they're so helpful! I've always been frustrated by the lack of good instruction for discovery writers, but you're steadily filling up that void, keep up the good work! That last tip really got me, if someone had just told me that a few years ago, I would have finished a book much sooner (I stopped drafting when I got stuck many a time, and I have many an unfinished novel to show for it). But hey, better late than never!
I love these points. The only thing that doesn't always work for me personally is the last : solving problems by writing. Sometimes for me the creative well is dry. I can definitely improve things by writing but often what I write in this state ultimately ends up in the bin. Usually I need a few days where I don't write but I'm still connected to the story. I deny myself writing it and I read research material. I take long walks and think about my characters. I take notes. Then when I feel I have this store of excitement and ideas I come back to writing. This probably wouldn't work for everyone but I will say don't feel bad if taking a break is what you need to fuel your writing.
So much of this resonates with me. So much happens subconsciously. In my most recent book, I named a very minor, walk-on character, little more than an extra. 60,000 words later, I wrote in an important turning point for my MC and that named bit-part character suddenly became pivotal! I didn't plan that. It wrote itself. But my subconscious had given that character a name for a reason... I just wasn't conscious of it yet. One of the "problems" that outliners often assume that we have is having to go back and add foreshadowing... But I almost never need to do that. The foreshadowing writes itself as I go and often the twists only occur to me BECAUSE I've already foreshadowed them.
I use google docs to write, and they have a comment featute on the side where you can leave notes for yourself. This helps with micro outlining, but really comes in handy when naming characters. Most of the time, I name characters on the spot so it helps when I can easily access a note to remember their name lol.
I do both. I'll start with some beats and plot points that feel good, then do a custom outline/formula to help me fill it in, then discovery write the holes left and put those into my outline and formula. So I bounce between them.
I've been writing for roughly seven years but i've mainly focused on poetry. Which is such an instinctive process for me, like I never have to plan out a poem, I just write it. So when I wanted to dip my toes into fiction, I kept seeing videos saying that an outline is a must and decided to follow along with that mindset... and I absolutely hated it. Extensive outlining has always felt like a form of homework to me. All those character sheets and planning out each scene down to each little action ends up making me feel burnout. I was actually ready to give up on fiction as a whole because I assumed there was something wrong with me for not falling in love with plotting. But this year I have a novel idea that's been stuck in my head and I really wanted to give nanowrimo a proper go this year. And I'm so glad that I found this video just in time. I was resonating a lot with some of the issues you mentioned, like how complicated note taking gets overwhelming. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge!! I'm actually looking forward to nano and feel more confident this time around than I did during my previous attempts.
Every time I try a writing sprint it’s like: “Yay! Time to write with a group!” *Writes* “What?! It’s been 20 minutes already?!” “I think I’ll just keep going so I don’t lose my creative flow.” *Keeps writing* “Ugh, those ladies won’t stop talking. How is their break not over yet?! I need some peace and quiet!” *Closes tab and keeps writing* “It’s been two hours?!?!”
What a brilliant term for this! For me, part of the fun of writing is being like, “What if this happens?” and then seeing the results unfold! Sometimes, I even get surprised by my own plot-twists because I don’t know them until I’m about to write them! I just found this channel (first video of yours I’m watching) and it’s so validating to find someone who acknowledges that outlines can be restrictive rather than helpful for certain writers! Also, you give me gender envy. I hope you don’t mind me showing a picture of you to my hairstylist because I’m getting a haircut soon and I want that exact haircut.
I need the most basic outline when I write because otherwise I get stuck and basically too afraid to fuck up the story to continue but I find your tips for discovery writers really helpful. I, too, work through the story best when writing it and I often understand the significance of the details I've written about only later on and if planning becomes too detailed or complicated, it's hard for me to focus on it so it has to be as effortless as it can be. I guess, I am a discovery writer, after all, just a little bit of a chicken
Wow, your last tip really hits the nail on the head for me! It's crazy how I can struggle for hours trying to think about what happens next in a specific scene but as soon as I sit and start writing it just flows out onto the paper, like I knew it all along and just had to stop overthinking it...great video!!
I'm a pantser from beginning to end. I only use minimal outlining to occasionally get from point A to B. Absolutely agree with your idea of being in the story to make it move. I like the idea about keeping it simple, despite the complexity of the plot. In the novel I just finished, the plot was paranormal world hopping, but at its heart, it was a romance. Following the arc of the romance kept things in line. Kept things grounded.
The detail thing is awesome! I get these little things all the time and usually they work like the keystone right when I need to round out the ending. It’s magic!
What I like to do, since I pretty much exclusively write short stories, is to write one or two words to describe what each paragraph will be about rather than plot everything carefully or completely improvise.
I pants. But I pants short stories. Pantsing an epic, so far, seems to be a fool's errand. The thing about pantsing is that you are aware of all the other stuff - how to write good dialog, show instead of tell, minimal adverbs, and so on - while you're fingers are "flying by the seat of your pants." It reminds me of what Bruce Lee said about learning martial arts, something along the lines of "to learn, you must unlearn." I take this to mean that you need to understand the technique so you don't have to think about it - you just do it. But to get to that point you have to learn it, and as a life long pantser, I never did.
Shaelin, I really don't know you, matter of fact I'm new here. But to be honest you just answered my long depressing questions. Thank you so much shaelin ❤️
Greetings. Old fool here who has been published once, for what it’s worth. I am just finding out that I might be a discovery writer (I have my own take on it of course) although I’d strongly contest the need for such a term as I think a) Writers often have a lot of stuff going on in their head before touching paper / keyboard and b) First drafts tend to be a bit discovery-ish anyway c) Any work of fiction has to go through a so called discovery phase whether it’s done in the mind or on paper. Even those who plot the hell out of their books - their discovery phase is probably the plotting process. Or am I missing the point. Also wondering if this is a formal / academic term. Has it been approved by the those who typically approve these things.
I took a writing class where we were taught to make detailed character profiles, and outline every little thing happened in the story, so I did. I thought that was the best way to write, but looking back I was never happy with those plots; they were predictable, and boring. I hated outlining so I slipped out of those habits, and never looked back. Everything in this video really resonated. I don’t think many people even know pantsing is an option. Also, I like your hair.
Very recently discovered that I’m naturally way more of a discovery writer than a somewhat less than ideal writing partner of the past led me to believe. Been a longtime viewer of your channel, and all these videos are finally making so much sense to me-thank you!
Peggy Seeger, the great folk singer, said: *The audience and I create what happens.* (Chapter 33 of *The First Time Ever*, her autobiography.) Discovery writers leave space for readers to make discoveries too, and it is harder for strong plotters to co-opt readers as co-creators. Jennifer Johnstone said her main character wants to be released from a private prison and only she has the key; she begins with very little. Hilary Mantel started with two historic figures, a famous surgeon and an 8 feet male giant; little was known about the giant so she could discover. Eva Sallis said: *Just write, just let it rip. The only way you'll find your voice is by exceeding it, or writing stuff that's not in it.* Quotes taken from 'Writers On Writing' edited by Roberts, Mitchell & Zubrinich, Penguin Australia 2002. Hilary Mantel's Irish novel is *The Giant, O'Brien*. She thinks of her historic novels as big houses the reader can walk around in from room to room.
i just found this channel and oh thank the stars you're a pantser. i have adhd, and outlining always got in the way of writing for me. i need more advice like this!
I like to work in one document that just goes on and on, why? Because I can scroll up easily to reread and fix stuff. I recently started looping through my manuscript, writing into the dark teaches that and it helps me tremendously. Taking notes About important things is still an issue for me, I am now trying Notion to reverse outline but switching between programs isn’t working for me. I write in scrivener and am looking for a way for an easy, yet clear way to see my notes
I managed to discover a verse novel by writing three short stories and then realising they were actually the same story and should in fact (with quite a bit of revision) be 1st, 2nd and 3rd acts
You don’t have to write in Chronological order. I got stuck a lot by wanting to go in a linear way, while having ideas for later bits sitting in my brain
I am a discovery writer and sometimes when I have a problem, such as a plan that I haven't worked out, I sit down and write and somehow it solves itself. Things and characters appear unexpectantly and become an essential element in the story. This is the joy of discovery writing. You don't know what might happen.
Hi! I tried asking this to some people that I think maybe could help me but no one's really helping naybe you could help me about my question. I'm wondering if the application of Math and other complex Sciences is always necessary to write great literature? For a start poetry uses measure to have a mathematical feeling. Then I saw a video of vscauce about constraint writing and he showed some books and a specific book of Michael Keith "Not A Wake" that has pi involved in it's process of creation. If I'm also not mistaken the book Ulysses by James Joyce has music technicalities in it. I also heard that Thomas Pynchon's work often features Mathematical Explorations like in "Gravity's Rainbow" and someone wrote a dissertation of combinatorial mathematics in Italo Calvino's "Invisible Cities". And some others but I thought back then that maybe there are just few of them and this hardcore ways is not really needed to create great literature or is this really the way? I'm also curious if the Classics and Scifi books I look up to has Math or other complex stuff involve in the creation of them. Some of the books are: Dune, One Hundred Years of Solitude, The Little Prince, Lord of the Flies, Brave New World Flowers for Algernon, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Frankenstein, The Collector, 2001 A Space Odyssey, Don Quixote and Sherlock Holmes Stories. I aspire to be a writer and this is one of my concerns that's why I need an answer from someone who can help me. Considering where I'm from, my current state, and English being not my first language I definitely has a lot more to learn. I'm sorry for asking such a question but I would be really thankful for an answer.
This is a very interesting question! But, no, math/science is absolutely not necessary! These are some very interesting assessments of math and science in books, but most books I encounter have no math/science, and I am terrible at math and don't use it at all in my books haha. These themes will only appear if you chose them to appear, but they are by no means necessary.
@@ShaelinWrites I have ADHD so outlines are just a nightmare for me. I also get super bored with it. Being a gardener/discovery/etc just works for me. I do have a very organized notes folder though. I have a lot of folders for my book because it just has become very complex. But it's just like the gist of things. I don't go into detail or anything. Just like "this happened this many years ago" I also have a chapter-by-chapter thing so I can keep track of what chapters I have finished, what the progress is, and how many "planned" chapters I have left. So this works for me. I kept losing track of what chapters I was working on, how far along I was, etc. And I also created an excel sheet (which I barely look at) which is how I keep track of how many POV chapters each character has (not super important).
@@BlackHermit Sumayya Khan, Medical Writer, Scientific Education Support, mainly working on therapies in the field of Haematological Oncology received a PhD in Molecular and Cellular Medicine (with a focus on cartilage repair) at the University of Oxford. The Belgian novelist Georges Simenon stopped reading literature and for thirty years only read medical journals.
*I write fast because I have not the brains to write slow,* said Simenon who could write an Inspector Maigret thriller in two days. Alfred Hitchcock rang Simeon's home in the hope that he and the great psychological novelist could collaborate on film. Madame Simeon said her husband was in his study working on a new novel. *I can wait,* said Hitchcock.
I think the "analyzing details" bit is kind of universal in my experience (at least for me)! I do both outlining and discovery writing depending on the project, and I always come back to details with an illumination about *why* it's here, and why it seemed important at the time even thought I wasn't certain of the deep significance, and this happens even when everything was meticulously planned and plotted. That's actually one of my favorite things about writing!
I finished the first draft of my first novel length project at the end of 2019, literally in December, and then the pandemic hit and I kind of lost my spark for it. I've been trying to revise it and I discovered where I went wrong in my process this weekend. I wrote the first half of the book with discovery writing, and then I hit a tough spot in the middle and tried to plot the rest of it out. The entire second half of the book is so shallow and soulless, and I really think it is because I planned things out for my characters and made decisions for them to serve a neat plot, rather than letting them naturally come up to these decision and then writing through them to figure out what they would do. I was also following the advice to not revise anything until the end, and I think that can work for some people, but I learned that it doesn't work for me. I have a mountain of words that will likely be tossed from the final version of the novel if/when I finish revising it. I'm just also finding it hard to conceptualize that the ending I've written may not be the actual ending to this story. I should've just given myself time to work through the block instead of forcing my characters into situations based on my understanding of them after only 10-12k words. I'm afraid I won't be able to recover this particular story (Which is sad because I love the premise), but I wouldn't consider it a negative or a net loss. I did learn a TON by finally finishing something.
