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Yankee Doodle Derby

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A debate as old as the very first American locomotive builders - American steam versus British steam. I know, the conversation is dumb and filled to the brim with intellectual dishonesty, but some people seem to think it makes for good content. But did you know that three of the largest railways in England actually had a taste of American trains, long before the Classes 59 and 66 came along?
SOURCES & CREDIT
Photograph of an Arabian horse and its handler by unknown author - columbus.gl.iit..., Public Domain, commons.wikime...
Photograph of Derby Works by Andy Dingley (scanner) - Scan from Allen, Cecil J. (1928) The Steel Highway, London: Longmans, Green & Co., pp. facing page. (II) 12, Public Domain, commons.wikime...
Photograph of a Pullman carriage by unknown photographer - Transferred from en.wikipedia to Commons by Tam0031 using CommonsHelper. Original source: www.chicagohs.o... (CHS G1988.0426 Box 2, F.1), Public Domain, commons.wikime...
Photograph of Great Northern Baldwin Mogul no.1190 (2/3rds) by unknown photographer - Flickr, Public Domain, commons.wikime...
Photograph of Great Northern Baldwin Mogul no.1190 (en face) by unknown author - This file was provided to Wikimedia Commons by the Bulgarian Archives State Agency as part of a cooperation project. The Bulgarian Archives State Agency provides images, which are public domain. For attribution/citation of the source, Bulgarian Archives State Agency, please use the identification numbers of the document's fonds, inventory, archival unit and sheet., Public Domain, commons.wikime...
Photograph of Midland Railway Class 2511 Schenectady Mogul no.2512 by Internet Archive Book Images - www.flickr.com... book page: archive.org/st..., No restrictions, commons.wikime...
Photograph of Midland Railway Class 2511 Schenectady Mogul no.2516 by Andy Dingley (scanner) - Scan from Howden, J.R. (1907) The Boys' Book of Locomotives, London: E. Grant Richards, pp. fig. 2, Public Domain, commons.wikime...
Scan of a share of the Pullman Company by Pullman's Palace Car Company - The Cooper Collection of US Railroad History (Uploader's collection) Transferred from en.wikipedia to Commons, Public Domain, commons.wikime...
Scan of the Midland Railway's route map - The Railway Year Book for 1920. The Railway Publishing Company Limited, London., Public Domain, commons.wikime...
Works drawing of a USATC S100 0-6-0 switcher - Public Domain, commons.wikime...
Website sources:
archive.org/de...
www.steamlocom...
www.steamlocom...
Literary sources:
'Midland Railway Portrait' by Peter Truman & David Hunt, published jointly between Platform 5 Publishing Ltd. & Foxline Publishing
LINKS
Discord server - / discord
Twitter - / teawithcaramel1
Outro music: Kevin MacLeod - Fiddles McGinty
Channel icon by Dean Walker
#MidlandRailway #Baldwin

Опубликовано:

6 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 77

@FlyingScott 7 месяцев назад

Alternative title: Yankee Doodle Bowler Hat

@olivercisneros1006 7 месяцев назад

@DennisLora2001 7 месяцев назад

Great title

@JohnDavies-cn3ro 7 месяцев назад

Loved this video for giving attention to one of my favourite 'forgotten' classes. They were bought during what was known as 'The Great Locomotive Famine', and weren't the only Yankees over here because of it. The Lynton & Barnstaple had 'Lyn', the Cork, Bandon & South Coast had at least one 0-6-2, which was one of the most awkward, ungainly looking hogs out - built to 5'3" gauge, and with quite high driving wheels. A couple of French railways had US engines too, high wheeled compound 4-4-0's similar to the NYC 999 to look at, while, although totally French in appearance, the Etat's first Pacifics were built in America - there's one in the museum at Mulhouse. The Royal Bavarian railways had four; a pair each of Atlantics and Consolidations, Baldwin Vauclain compounds which were totally US in appearance. Bought for trials and experimental purposes, one of the Consols lasted long enough to be seized as reparations in 1918. And please, don't forget the very first US engines to run in this country - the little Norris 4-2-0's which worked the Lickey Incline, some of which ended their days on the infant Taff Vale. Or the Baldwin ROD 4-6-0's, which went to various narrow gauge lines in Wales and other places after 1918.

@JohnDavies-cn3ro 7 месяцев назад

PS - while reading the other comments, I remembered something. The stone quarries on Titterstone Clee in Shropshire had a little standard gauge 0-4-0 saddle tank, bought from the MOD in 1919, which worked the quarries on the summit. Like 590 on the Welsh Highland, it never lost its ROD number, and was cut up during the second world war. Also, contractors building the Great West Road out of London in the 1920s had at least one little Davenport narrow gauge 0-4-0 saddle tank, purchased from the same source.

@azuma892 7 месяцев назад

In the early days of railways in China and Japan, British steam locos were the most dominant, later they mostly switched to purchasing American or German designs. I guess the major factor is the ease of maintenance.

@BriceInkling138 7 месяцев назад

I wish they still kept British locomotives in service because it's so unique how they run in China and Japan outside their region and continent of origin.

@azuma892 7 месяцев назад

Museum Meiji-Mura (明治村) has two foreign 0-6-0s preserved in running order, one British and one American. Look that up.

@newobanproductions999 7 месяцев назад

While China and Japan turned away from the UK, further south was a far different story. My home country of Australia (which technically a former colony) developed a "buy British" policy and heavily bought UK locomotives with New South Wales Government Railways (NSWGR, the British Empire's 1st government railway) being a heavy customer from Manchester firm Beyer, Peacock & Co. NSWGR did have American designs even before Federation which resulted in what's now the "Commonwealth of Australia" which totalled 37 locomotives but...... let's say they weren't very liked it was to get rid of them (the 29 class 2-8-0s kind of copped it the worst as NSWGR "rebuilt the Baldwin out of them" despite outliving other US locos in NSWGR). In 1952, we ordered 20 "Mikados" (like the JNR class D51) based on the USATC S200 from WWII as oil-burners, which these engines became the "59 class"and they were pretty good engines, even after converting all but three to coal. Five still exist and one (No. 5917) is a regular mainline performer. However, Britain still wins out as NSWGR produced its last engine in 1950, which was a 58 class 4-8-2 (which those engines sucked compared to the 57 class that came before them) and the final UK engine for the railway delivered in 1956 being a 60 class 4-8-4+4-8-4 Garratt from Beyer Peacock. Like the UK, licenced EMDs and even Alcos (built by Clyde Engineering and AE Goodwin respectfully) became popular locomotives and quite a few of these "streamliners" are still running today in either heritage duties or commercial service. As for industrial service, a few US tank engines were brought over and became smash hits, with the 0-4-0Ts used by BHP Newcastle built by H. K. Porter being popular with the steelmill that they built their own copies of the design. Two of these (No. 4 and 16) survive, both proper Porters (doesn't help No. 16 is plinthed less than an hour from where I live).

@biglittlerailroad874 7 месяцев назад

Nice to see these engines get some attention. The GWR also had some Cooke built tank engines they inherited from the amalgamated Barry and Port Talbot Railways. Their fortunes were a little bit better than Yankee Moguls.

@RockyRailroadProductions_B0SS 7 месяцев назад

I think the Rhymney Railway had a few odd Cooke engines as well, big 0-8-2 tanks which were built like typical 2-8-0s of the era.

@JohnDavies-cn3ro 7 месяцев назад

They did indeed - very handsome and successful engines, which were good enough for the GWR to reboiler them with standard Swindon boilers, and get some more use out of them.@@RockyRailroadProductions_B0SS

@Sigil_Firebrand 7 месяцев назад

As an American: I GREATLY prefer UK steam locomotive and train design overall, though particularly that of the LMS and SR. Not to say that some US designs aren't impressive, but UK designs are so much more, elegant. It's why I have a OO gauge layout in my house too! Great video as always!

@Apollo_Vanron 3 месяца назад

Agreed.

@Pure_Havoc. 7 месяцев назад

Did anyone else notice the USA scotsman, apposed the regular A1 shown in the intro of (mostly) every video?

@steamtrainguy-365 2 месяца назад

You just play the theme song and like everyone knows what you’re talking about perfection

@ChrisLShack1998 7 месяцев назад

I personally love both UK and US locomotives.

@lordvader1672 7 месяцев назад

I absolutely love the look of the moguls sent to MR, GCR, and GNR they remind me so much of moguls built around the 1880s here in the states

@JohnDavies-cn3ro 7 месяцев назад

So they should! Basically they were straight off the peg US moguls, with British d raw and buffing gear - and, yes, as a Limey I like them too.

@RainShadow-yi3xr 7 месяцев назад

Nice to finally see a video about these engines, too bad its punctuated by dumb jabs. also, these engines have no article on Wikipedia or Loco Wiki, but they do have one on the German Britische Bahn Wiki, which is pretty silly imo

@physiocrat7143 7 месяцев назад

You might say that the GWR 4300 class is a British take on the US Moguls, as well as all the 2-6-2 and 2-6-4 tanks, so perhaps they did have a lasting influence. Then there were all the Southern, LMS, LNER and BR Standard Moguls, and the LBSC Class K.

@LegoMiester14 7 месяцев назад

5:36 was the funniest part,😂😆

@TheSudrianTerrier653 7 месяцев назад

“The comments section will eat me alive if I don’t mention the S100s saw service, alongside *thomas theme intensifies* “

@seangabrielreyes4614 6 месяцев назад

trains

@steel5543 7 месяцев назад

America vs British debates? I sleep. The times where they actually worked with each other? Now we've got a good topic

@thecaledoniansleeper2648 7 месяцев назад

I think this engine is what inspired Australia to create a mixture of British and American locomotive designs.

@ArthurAndNormandyFan1 7 месяцев назад

Not really, the NSWGR had already introduced American locomotives by the 1870s, starting with the U/S 105 class 4-4-0 of 1877, and then a goods version following in 1879. Two more classes of 2-6-0 by Baldwin followed in 1885 (K and L classes) and then finally the Z23 and Z29 classes of 1891. The South Australian Railways introduced their 1st O class, a Baldwin 2-8-0 in 1881, along with the N class Baldwin 4-6-0s and the Baldwin narrow gauge 2-6-0 X class. Queensland Railways introduced their first American locos in 1878 as the small A12 4-4-0 Baldwins, a year later Baldwin two 2-8-0 classes would be introduced as the C13 and C15 classes. In 1880 the 2-6-0 Baldwin B11 class was introduced. In 1882 the 2-8-0 C16 class was introduced alongside the normal A12 which was built until 1891. The reason for so many American locomotives were purchased was due not only to shortages but also distance, it was 'quicker' and cheaper to buy American stock under the circumstances, these all came before the MR, GNR, and GCR imported 2-6-0s in 1899, so I doubt that their export to the UK would've impacted Australian design at all, most had gone by 1915, in comparison the earlier imports by Australia lasted longer in operation in that country (though not all on a government system) which was how American design choices began influencing the design of Australian locos.

@HyperCat72 7 месяцев назад

I love me some American trains in Britain

@00Zy99 7 месяцев назад

It's really not fair to compare the US locomotives to draft horses. The US produced plenty of pure-bred express passenger locomotives. Some of the Reading's fast camelbacks (ten-wheelers and Atlantics) are contenders for the first locomotives to reach 100 mph. And the Milwaukee Road's Hiawatha locomotives were the only ones ever TIMETABLED for 100 mph (ie-they had to run at 100 mph daily to stay on schedule, AND THEY DID). Of course, the US produced plenty of locomotives that were intended for passenger work that ended up also being good at freight-the Union Pacific FEF series (800s) and the Norfolk and Western J class (600s) stand out. The FEFs were designed for 100 mph+ and did so regularly (with some reasonably credible reports of 110-120). And yet you can find plenty of footage of them (especially 844, which is still operational and has NEVER been retired) hauling freight, even into the modern era (there's a rather famous clip of 844 rescuing a stranded freight train in 1990s). The J class were built with an elegant streamlined casing, easily touched 100+ (nobody knows their top speed because they have never been recorded as working hard at any speed the track permitted), and are definite contenders for the finest steam locomotives ever built (along with the South African Red Devil and the BR 8 and 9F). But they too could do freight work, dragging coal trains through the mountains on lines that make Shap and Beattock look like a billiard table. It would also be interesting to examine the cases of US design having an influence on British designs-look at Churchward, Gresley, and Riddles.

@FlyingScott 7 месяцев назад

The comment regarding horses is moreso taking into account that, inevitably, people will point to the Pennsy K4s, Reading's Mountains, Lima's Berkshires, anything the UP ran, you name it. The trend with people who even dare to assume US and UK (or any other railway's engines pitted against another's, really) are comparable don't actually know what they are talking about, or do so out of bad faith and/or a sense of one-upmanship when that is the last thing our hobby needs. I do happen to know the Bristolian also was timetabled for 100mph, with Great Western's Castles and Kings being able to achieve it. It was the only steam hauled express on BR to have that distinction, though.

@davefrompa5334 3 месяца назад

The Santa Fe 3776/2900 class and New York Central Niagaras were also excellent fast passenger and freight locomotives, by any standard.

@legdig 7 месяцев назад

Good job on the research for this one! Someone pronouncing Derby right brings joy to my frosted over heart.

@AW.Dry_and_Co. 7 месяцев назад

There was also the Baldwin 10-36-E/ General Psershing class, but idk if they actually ran in the UK or just in Europe

@JohnDavies-cn3ro 7 месяцев назад

I think the Pershings only ran in France, where they lasted a very long time!

@Marco-xz9sc 7 месяцев назад

I want one of the MR 2501 or 2511 in OO

@cheyvengeance5432 3 месяца назад

Love the video however the GWR had some S160’s at one point 😊

@joshslater2426 7 месяцев назад

For me, UK trains were the peak of steam in terms of design and history.

@TylerMcNamer 7 месяцев назад

That's pretty cool! I didn't know General Motors did trains. Thought it was just automobiles. I learned something today! Thank you. Hello from The States!

@DangerAngelous 7 месяцев назад

Man the GNR moguls look too much like a funky edit

@firstnamlastnam2141 7 месяцев назад

The GNR example is really nice looking, it's such a shame they weren't successful.

@RockyRailroadProductions_B0SS 7 месяцев назад

I love these locos as they very much fall under typical American builder practice of the era, especially with Baldwin, which was to make bespoke locomotive designs using otherwise standardized lines of thought, for example, engines built by Baldwin, H.K. Porter, and Schenectady etc for use in Japan on the JGR were built to the 42" gauge track and loading gauge, with the couplers etc to match up with Japanese rolling stock, but were otherwise very typically American looking machines. My favorite instance of a US loco escaping to Britain is the case of the "Lovett Eames", a Reading railroad 4-2-2 camelback built to make the run from Atlantic City to Philadelphia, which was in competition with the Pennsylvania Railroad during the 1870s. The Reading commissioned this 4-2-2 (Their no. 507) from Baldwin with a special steam cylinder in the frames which would shift the loco's weight a bit to press the driving wheels down harder when starting off, and then ease back once the lightweight 4-car train was up and moving. The goal here was, unlike a typical 4-4-0, this big 4-2-2 could have a wide anthracite waste-burning firebox while still having large diameter drivers for speed. Unfortunately, somehow or another, Baldwin was not paid in full for their work (507 being Baldwin's 5000th engine and used for some publicity photos, somehow the Reading assumed that gave them a "discount" on the engine?) Baldwin ended up taking the loco back, and, a 4-2-2 is a hard sell to any other American railroad, the Reading being the only road I can think of with a fleet of them, so it sat around for a while until the Eames Vacuum Brake Company bought it to haul their exhibition cars. On a tour of the railways of Britain, because by the 1880s, it was clear that Westinghouse's air brake was winning the US market. So it was cut down and shipped over to run on the Great Northern Railway to offer some demonstrations of these vacuum brakes, and somehow afterwards, it vanished off the face of the Earth. I have an HO model of this weird little loco and sometimes it plays with 'Lord of the Isles'.

@JohnDavies-cn3ro 7 месяцев назад

'Lovett Eames' was left behind when Eames pulled out of GB, and was cut up for scrap. Her bell is (I believe) still in the possession of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers.

@RockyRailroadProductions_B0SS 7 месяцев назад

@@JohnDavies-cn3ro Amazing, I didn't know anything from the loco survived!

@andrewsmith6563 7 месяцев назад

Can you please do Alan Pegler Presents: Flying Scotsman - Still in Steam (1963) in Source Film Maker with Flying Scotsman in British Railways Dark Locomotive Green Paint as No. 60103 and old London North Eastern Railway Apple Green Paint and No. 4472, Flying Scott?

@FlyingScott 7 месяцев назад

So along with asking me to make every Standard 5 under the sun for you for SFM every 14 days, you're now asking for an entire 20 minute documentary in Source Filmmaker? If you want me to make those so badly, pay me. End of.

@andrewsmith6563 7 месяцев назад

@@FlyingScott I'll gladly pay you back.

@DiscothecaImperialis 7 месяцев назад

6:07 Mutated American engine :P built not with American railroading tradition.

@LondontransporduckL99 7 месяцев назад

London Brighton and south coast railway forever

@YJRail 7 месяцев назад

I knew of the Midland moguls but not the Great Northern or Great Central ones, the GNR ones look sharp

@trainworms 7 месяцев назад

would be interesting to look at continental locos in the uk like the GWR Atlantics

@Mason58654 7 месяцев назад

I always love American 🇺🇸 locomotives built for foreign rails. @4:58 Japan for instance at first relied on imported British engines, but later American locomotives began outselling their British counterparts due to faster delivery times (backlogs of British locomotives necessitated this) and I like seeing US locos with buffers and screw couplings. Can’t have too many of those. 👍

@craniel1 7 месяцев назад

I truly don't fully understand the comparisons between American and British railway's. with little more than a cursory glance one could easily see real differences, and realize just as was said these aren't meant to be compared at all. consider flying scotsman and 4501 in '68, 4501 an older loco sporting 53,900IBS of tractive effort while only the LNER Garrett u1 had more at 72,000IBS.

@FlyingScott 7 месяцев назад

A trend amongst those who deem comparing the two worth their time is that they don't really know what they are talking about ;)

@roboftherock 2 месяца назад

@@FlyingScott How true, sir; how true.

@GeneralHeavy 7 месяцев назад

3:11 Isn't that the model James is based of?

@jaredhebert942 7 месяцев назад

Unfortunately, the Great Northern H1 class built by Baldwin was not the basis for James (though that would be a fun custom if that had a ready-to-run model); James was/is an experimental 2-6-0 mogul build of the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway's Class 28 0-6-0 tender engines (the pilot wheels ahead of the drive wheels were an effort to mitigate the 28s' rough-riding), but his results weren't quite what the L&YR needed, so he was quietly sold to the North Western Railway on Sodor right as the Grouping Act of 1923 took hold (L&YR merging into the London, Midland & Scottish Railway/LMS); James had his first accident in the field (& his wooden brake blocks) soon after hitting NWR rails, Thomas rescued him, and The Rest is History

@GeneralHeavy 7 месяцев назад

@@jaredhebert942 I see

@caledonianrailway1233 7 месяцев назад

Did we send anything to America

@jaredhebert942 7 месяцев назад

John Bull for the Baltimore & Ohio in the 1830s was a British machine IIRC

@biglittlerailroad874 7 месяцев назад

The James Toleman, a one off duplex from 1893.

@HazelReserveUnit 7 месяцев назад

There’s a handful of British-built locomotives sent to the USA and Canada in the 1830s-1850s.

@gamerfan8445 7 месяцев назад

In the early days of steam.

@Train_Tok_Man 7 месяцев назад

@@jaredhebert942John Bull wasn’t for the B&O. It was for the Camden and Amboy Railroad.

@specialfunnelstudios5523 7 месяцев назад

Hey I feel a good model for you that’s a little unusual but still prototypical for Scotland. The Bachmann 56xx I have one and it’s probably my favorite model and I know 2 were allocated to Scotland during br days could make for an interesting video

@FlyingScott 7 месяцев назад

There were two 1600s allocated to the Dornoch branch, the only 5600 to ever go to Scotland did so in 2017.

@specialfunnelstudios5523 7 месяцев назад

@@FlyingScott oh that’s my fault got the two mixed up

@specialfunnelstudios5523 7 месяцев назад

Don’t know why I thought it was a 56

@JohnDavies-cn3ro 7 месяцев назад

At least one 28xx class 2-8-0 was loaned to the North British during the Great War, to help working 'Jellicoe Specials' to Scapa.

@awesome-xk8vj 7 месяцев назад

Can you make the BR Class 17.

@olivercisneros1006 7 месяцев назад

@IndianaNorthWestern 7 месяцев назад

Uk and Us steam can't really be compared imo; one side was built to be small, fast and get as much power as they could from a "small" sized locomotive while looking clean from a design standpoint, and the other was built to get as much power as possible, size be damned, and to do work day in day out and to be cheap and easy to work on as possible. Yeah it's exactly like comparing a thoroughbred race horse to a draft horse, but in reality the draft horse is on steroids the faster it goes. Un-needed unwanted American opinion rant thing over.

@JohnDavies-cn3ro 7 месяцев назад

Harry Holdcroft, Churchward's deputy on the GWR studied US practice, and introduced them on a number of their GWR designs. Gresley's conjugated valve gear went the other way, being employed on a class of Union Pacific 4-12-2s.

@True_NOON 7 месяцев назад

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