You don't know how to use a Greatsword (probably) 

Marozzo died in 1553, his treatise was published in 1536 when he was 52.

Imo there are several mistake in this video and one problem i see is that only using fencing sources wont helpt understanding the weapon. I agree on the point that marozzos sword is rather a spadoncino a duelling longsword for a specific purpose. The other thing is that people missunderstand what exactly the bodyguard role means. In itself this role actually did exist and in german it was a Trabant a soldier with the job to guard someone or something. For this reason they often have glaives, halberds but also Schlachtschwerter aka Greatswords. This term however also appears in muster and drafting pay roles. Often their job was to guard the banners and the important officers etc. Trabants also existed in civilian life protecting dukes and so on. There were also some ongoing longsword etc traditions that still knew how to use that weapon for example the swiss people and mercenaries who made extensive use of this weapon even in the 17th century. Zweihänder is not the term for those weapon since this term means longsword etc. In armouries and inventories of that time they are always referred to as Schlachtschwerter the same we can find in fencing manuals, eyewitness accounts and letters etc. There are actually some german sources that do tell us that this weapon was meant to fend off two or three people at once. Erhard Schön for example depicts landsknechte with greatswords who actually "say" that this is their job. Military sources also describe their job. Kirchof who was a landsknecht till 1556 as well as later landsknechte tell us that this weapon was in the third rank sometimes fifth (repeating in depth) and if the melee was too tight so the pikemen wouldnt be able to use their pikes anymore they would make space for the greatswords and halberd to come who would then deal with the enemies. For this and other even more important jobs the greatsword was held in high regard. They were also used as highly effective shock troops in skirmshing as confirmed by eyewitnesses, veterans and military manuals. And pike heads were actually cut. Kirchof mentions this that all landsknechte should do this and several authors mention that for this reason pikes must have langets especially since cavalry did chop off pike heads as well. Greatsword is not specifically mentioned but there are mentions of halberds and long bladed partisans that do this. However those weapons were according to instructions only for the strongest and most experienced soldiers because it is a weapon that requires a lot of skill but also gives a lot back. There are also quite a few accounts of higher ranking officers defending their lives with such a weapon. The weapon was indeed used for cleaing but i agree on the point that cleaving several people in half was probably not what they had in mind. But there are sources that do tell us that they cleaved off limbs, cut into faces and legs. Doppelsöldner mostly referred to the armoured pikemen in the first ranks and to the side. Sometimes they do refer to halberdiers and greatswords as well simply because they were required to be heavily armoured. Important to note that they were not only used by the Landsknechte but other nations as well in the same manner and that they were also used by cities and city defenses. Many "landsknechte" were not mercenaries but citzens drafted by the city for war. Regarding circling and exhausting etc. The masters advise that you simply wait once your opponents are out of measure. Parrying a greatsword is imo not possible i tried it with my replicas and the plastic one already broke through the parry of my friend. The result would be even worse if i had used my replica which weights 3,6 kg. To parry something like this is mostly just a fantasy. I could write much more about it but that would blow the thing out of proportion. That being said i do agree that some people have the wrong idea how exactly this weapon was used and how to use it. The textes are not wrong but imo people missinterprete smaller things. However the greatsword was given out as a civil guardsmans weapon for night watch. Several german arsenals directly state this as well as city laws. The overall problem with approaching some weapons is that one needs to cross reference at lot of different types of sources, documents etc as well as that lots of cliches about the landsknechte are outdated or plain wrong. Got longer than i intended it to be but i hope the information is useful.

Notably, Marozzo also EXPLICITLY says regarding his plays with the two-handed sword against polearms: "I advise you against making such a match, because the advantage will always be his (your opponent's), in my opinion."

Disses HEMA for conjecturing too much based on sources and ends up conjecturing without the sources... A classic 'I don't know how to use it, so everyone in history must have been bullshitting about using it'.

I think Oskar from Virtual Ftechtschule shows convincingly that greatswords can be used against multiple swordsmen. Though I do not see how such a situation might arise.

Greatswords are awesome but they''re more like a form of polearm than a sword. "Cutting pikes" was more likely cutting into pike shafts or pushing them aside in order to create openings for their own pike/infantry formations. No sweeping strikes though, more like parrying and using long handle to leverage openings. As for how, if you and your formation advance with you within your side's pike shafts, you'd get about 3 to 4 feet of coverage defense where you have a leverage advantage hitting shafts of enemies' pikes and spears. Sword will bite into wood, increasing this leverage. Bodyguard wise, they might be useful defending a doorway/opening/bridge/etc, and then it's also used more like a polearm.

I always thought the same, tbe greataword was out of style by Meyer's time. But i just read a little Alfieri who was writing for 17th Century military uses. He covers military banners and pikes, but also Spadone. It seems odd he'd include that, though he did write a rapier treatise. We do know the two handed claymore was used by Jacobites in the late 17th Century in battle. There are battle accounts of Landsknechts using greatswords in battle but the details were scant. Being used on galleys seems plausible. I think what you're saying about treatises is true about almost all original sources that came between Fiore and 17th Century sources. Books helped, but people learned by sparring and personal instruction.

After watching Oscar's video, which says a lot of the same things you said, but he doesn't dismiss its use, I wonder if it's a weapon that a soldier could be equipped with and also have an arquebus. The halbert was pretty common at that time, but that was probably going to be your only weapon. Now. I don't know how easy it would be to carry a great sword and a firearm, but it might give a soldier the ability to both fire and charge through Pike's giving a soldier a reach advantage over the hangers of the enemy Pike blocks. I just thought of this, so there might be issues with it, and I don't see how this would a better advantage than a longsword, or the great sword adjacent spadone.

Good logic in your report! Indeed, in the fencing community there are too many contradictions in the assessment of the use of a two-handed sword. It may very well be possible that wielding a greatsword is part of a complex interaction with other friendly soldiers in the same formation. Initially, this is an extremely dubious weapon for a bodyguard, who will be much better off saving another person or valuable object if he fights with a shield. Consequently, the two-handed sword occupies some kind of narrow niche in partner interactions against various combinations of offensive weapons. This is something similar to situations reminiscent of the game "rock, paper, scissors" - where the real benefit will only be in one of the combinations, but it will be very important at a certain moment, and useless in other cases.

The best weapon against multiple swordsmen is obviously Pascha's jargerstock which allows you to hold off 20 or 30 swordsmen for half a quarter hour ! Try at your own risk. Even Vadi says that if you have to fend off many with a single sword choose a light one.

What do you mean by "cleaving does not exist"? I cleave meat and bone surprisingly often since I bought a gardening machete. A very cheap and effective cleaver. The source accounts you occasionally see about cleaving through attackers align very well with what I see in daily use. Are your swords sharp? Shaving sharp? In general, it seems to me, you overstate your case. Yes, it's quite possible that people glorify greatswords way too much, but they were in use. They were way more expensive to make than any polearm. The blade alone, while probably the easiest part of it, was still quite difficult to make straight with a decent temper. Making all the other features without welding machines and power tools was quite another matter. Why would they bother with the expense and inconvenience if those weapons gave them practically no advantage against something way cheaper and/or way less annoying to carry? One-on-one a longsword is at a disadvantage against a polearm. A greatsword? I don't think so, because it has enough reach to threaten the hands and arms of a polearm wielder, while it has enough hand protection to warrant more aggressive use too. As an area denial weapon? A no brainer. You definitely can pose a lot of threat within its not insignificant reach. "Oh, I'll just tell my buddy to take the hit, while I finish him off" is a great idea *when none of you risks his life* . Brawls on the streets were not uncommon at all. Even if polearms were better at repelling those (which I doubt), you practically can't carry them indoors, especially back then. Greatswords were made for a reason. The probably were abandoned, because they were no longer necessary. That's what I think, obviously.

entertaining video, but i do still think it must have been more than just psychological warfare. I dont mean to diminish the value of psychological warfare; indeed many powerful military devices in history become much less effective without the intimidation factor, even including things like tanks and chemical weapons. I certainly think you're correct to skewer the power fantasies around self defense. Anyways, I still think that the safe assumption is that greatswords had some measure of usefulness in a melee or a skirmish with a broken formation, perhaps with the intent of providing armored support for pikemen and arquebusiers. Worth mentioning is that a great sword should at least have a theoretically good performance when thrusting, being easier to wield with an extremely rearward grip, plus being as long as and longer than some polearms at the time. There's also the matter of durability. A two handed sword may have been more durable than the competing polearm. It may have also been that in melees, skirmishes, ambushes, and raids, the opponent was often only wielding the kinds of swords we often associate with civilian defense; arming swords, bastard swords, or falchions. Obviously at that point you come back to the conversation on why not just use a spear, but I do think the hand protection at least has value in these scenarios. All i will say about these scenarios is that i think its fairly clear that a zweihander is not a desirable replacement for a full length bladed battlefield polearm, nor a pike, though clearly some greatswords crossed over into that length range.

Yeah I don't think the greatsword was ever supposed to get a lot of kills or anything like that, it's more about area denial. But also yeah I don't have any solid reasoning for why you couldn't replace it with a halberd or spontoon, both of which were used by sergeants/officers (guys who weren't supposed to get distracted by reloading) into the 19th century. Not to mention even in the pike formations that DID have greatswords (and I don't think all of them did), they also always had more halberds. So yeah, I'd be willing to believe there's a very very specific niche for greatswords over halberds, but I'd also believe they both did the same thing effectively enough that you could pick the big sword instead of the big axe and only lose like 5% survival chance.

this reminds me of Mordhau when people would get into epic 1vX battles with some giant novelty two-hander and I’d rock up with a bit of sharpened stick to bother them around the head with it. against people that even sorta know what they’re doing you need to be like 3x more skilled than all of them combined, otherwise there’s just _so much_ they can do to tag-team you since they can coordinate and you can’t, even a walking stick would be enough to shut down the reach advantage.

This is a fantastic and very rational take on greatswords in general. 1000% Agree. A lot of the image surrounding the greatsword as a bodyguard weapon really just boils down to "Look at my bodyguard, he's got a giant scary and expensive sword! Don't mess with me!" imo... What use would such a weapon BE in any place other than a battlefield, and even then, I think I'd be more afraid of the dude I hired spinning around with a giant sword taking my head off if I'm standing nearby.

I can’t wait to read these comments.

I've noticed the sources that are from the 1400s( when the longsword was most popular and most common) ironically treat it as just one of several weapons. But in HEMA its often only the longsword that is practiced with grappling and things like polearms not being trained. I always thought the emphasis on the sword was a bit ahistorical given that and its good to see others think so too

Some just like big weapons, great axe/sword poleaxe etc. I like pata madu combo for novelty but it's been years since I've practiced.

okay so what about claymores?

So you think they consider bastard/hañd_N_half sword, considered an oversized longsword or an undersized great sword?

in what world having bodyguards wear fashion business suits,stealth armor vest and stealth pistols better than having them wear tactical gear with large armor, ammo rig and a rifle? Yeah, in our world. If Im getting bodyguards wuth two handed weapons they're having greatswords considering they most likely never going to get attacked. If its war time or vip is in danger, then bodyguards can change their nice suits and stealth weapons to something less flashy and more practical.

Spinning cleave a text do work if the first targets are only draw cuts in the final Target is the actual chop but you have to have pretty good blade mastery and body balance for you to be able to do that consistently probably in my not so humble opinion

The Great Swords were not heavy. For all your talk about research you missed this point.

lol. I’m sorry, but what sources or anything talks about “spinning like a bay blade of death?” The fact of the matter is - in the mid-late 1500 when this might have been used as a “bodyguard” weapon what would they have been fighting? You think people that are attacking a specific target are running through the streets with spears and pole axes? I think not. And yeah you “try and parry” a greatsword weapon with a single handed sword. Sorry no. Not happening without you likely dying. So you going to die for the group? Or one of your friends?

While some of your initial arguments make sense, the second part is utterly bad. I don't think you actually have much experience with greatswords. I can assure you that unless the opponents are very experienced and/or have very long weapons you can definitely keep them at bay AND corner someone. And no, you don't parry a greatsword unless you have a rotella. First of all, people don't jump under your greatsword. They don't want to die. Second, the others don't know when their friends are about to die. They usually don't have the time to act before you turn again into a killing machine. And a spear is terrible for a bodyguard because the moment you kill someone with a thrust (or often when you miss), you are a dead man. There is a reason why swiss guards use a halberd. Because you CAN use them a bit like a greatsword. You cannot do that with a spear. Sorry, but I have to call bullshit on a lot of what you say.

Come on man, before making a video try to spend at least two minutes doing research. All the dates and timescales you mentioned about Marozzo and the Landsknechte were comically wrong.

Medieval vaush