To move away from the videos main topic, when Datto starts talking about how his life has improved over the last few years at 6:30 with his now wife and just looking at him physically in the videos top right compared to a few years ago, you can't help but feel happy with seeing how much improvement and positively has gone towards his life and health. Keep on keep'n Datto
Now I'm remembering the video Datto does Happiness where he explained how fucking miserable he was in that shit studio apartment in LA and how he was going to move to Washington to hang with da boys. What a fucking glow up man.
Damn, that melting point mention towards the end hit hard. Back when we didn't have Divinity and all these other debuffs, I was the Sunbreaker Titan risking my life trying to shoulder-charge a boss to debuff it, that could possibly instakill me. All for the ability for my team do that sweet increased damage. It required skill and timing and it felt good when you had a great damage phase or outright one-phase a boss.
Having been around since Crota's End, being able to witness Dat's mental transformation over the years has been an immense motivational booster for me. I'm glad you're in a much better state than you used to be, good on ya! My opinion on the Div drama since this is the first I'm hearing of it: As someone who used to raid pretty actively, I could care less what happens to the gun. One way or another, my team's gonna get through the dmg check, be it Div or something else.
The only note I will add is when someone brings up the "objectively, there is always going to a worst player on the team" point to say Div benefits that player, I would like to point out that most of the players bad enough to get designated permanent Div...are those who don't have it. Because they don't do Garden of Salvation. Because they don't raid. And the one time they do have enough time to raid, they're going to go to the newest one. Not back to GoS.
sounds like they are an issue and they need to be unable to raid for not having proper gear, honestly. just get the right weapons to play end game content, what's the issue?
not really, i've only done gos twice and both were div runs, i only did it again because i thought you got the quest at the beginning of the first run. but even though i consider myself a mid player i never use div 😈 it's just not fun
The "rich people problem" might have been a more apt analogy than i first thought. New exotics ? Let's equip the perfect set of mods on this specific build around that one exotic that shits on the current legendary lost sector and blow through it in 3m time to run it a couple dozen times per hour. Boom, exotic acquired within a day. I can now trivialize an even wider variety of game scenarios with my gear. You're a new player ? You don't have that old mod that's only available on rotation from Banshee ? Or you don't have the exotic that's a random drop and have no way to acquire specifically ? Tough luck. Not only do you suck at the game compared to the other guy, but your build is trash for that encounter. You'll have to learn, like a lil kid thrown on a heavyweight boxing ring. Oops, legendary lost sectors rotate, so you've only got a day every so often to learn it. Too bad. Or you could run a couple hundred hours of strikes and hope to get lucky before you burn out. What fun. Basically, the rich get richer in this game. You want to know my lukewarm take ? Almost all the avenues to get exotics at a decent rate require champion mods. Arc singe and overloading champions ? On a season with overloading LMG mod ? Thunderlord that bitch. What's that ? You don't have a single arc weapon compatible with overloading mod ? 33% damage penalty. You don't have any good LMG or bow at all ? Flat out impossible. They know it, they literally had to hand out thunderlord for free to everyone. This mechanic makes the game trivial if you already have a hoard of stuff to pick from, but ball-bustingly hard for people with specific blind spots in their gear, with no in-between or reasonable way to fix it besides running braindead easy content for dozens of hours on repeat. Casuals are not the ones complaining. Casuals are satisfied with the normal campaign and blue gear. The people complaining are the ones who got past that point and realize how they're stuck with either easy content with terrible RNG, or crazy hard content for their level for good RNG to catch up with everyone. There's a gap between casuals and sweatlords that's just not addressed by the game. That gap keeps widening every expansion, every season, and sweatlords don't notice it because it was hardly noticeable when they started. Stuff was balanced around the available gear pool at the time, which was available to everyone. Now, the exotic loot pool is super diluted and some really strong mods are straight up unavailable. Divinity is another good example. A weapon that trivializes raids, that requires raiding to acquire. People who are good enough to get it don't need it, and the people who need it can't get it. There's no bridge from casual to sweatlord without getting carried anymore. The gear game puts a giant difficulty spike in the way of mid-level players while trivializing everything for end-game players at the same time.
This is the best comment with the most reasoned take seeing the problem from everyone’s perspective. Ultimately, it’s a Bungie problem because they haven’t yet learned how to balance their game for all of their players to have a place to be satisfied and be able to progress or challenge themselves.
The good thing is that Bungie is really improving accessibility this season. Even casual players now have a Riskrunner, Thunderlord and a top tier LFR and a set of armor that doesn’t take 99 enhancement cores to put mods on.
13:14 one option to "nerf" divinity without nerfing is to have something like shiro chi where hitting divinity gives you lower damage the hitting the real crit
@@sound4117 As someone who doesn't play the game all too much and is more of a casual player, I do believe that Div needs some sort of nerf, big or small. For most raid encounters, if we have someone being the Div user, that takes a lot of the fun away from boss encounters as all you really have to do is look at a circle and shoot, but that is just my opinion. I feel like Div should still be considerably powerful, but not powerful enough to render most options of debuffing useless
thats just a mistake though because div wasnt around at forsaken release, i think best options as dad said are making something better that requires more skill but higher debuff or nerf div mag size
If they were to nerf Divinity, I would say it would be best to do a bit after releasing a raid where it is clearly and distinctly not the most optimal option. You may think it impossible, but there's definitely ways they could accomplish this: -More encounters that aren't straight DPS check boss fights (Siege Engine, Totems, Gatekeeper, LW Vault, Exhibition) -Encounters where damage is done through relics that are unaffected by Div -Encounters where the team is split up, meaning less players benefit from it -Fights with multiple, smaller and quicker DPS checks (Shuro Chi, Atraks-1)
I would also add more fights where the boss actively moves around the area. Meaning you still have to do some form of aiming to land shots. While also keeping an eye on where the boss is going. We need more fights like Rhulk.
@@Ellyark I was thinking of a boss fight like that, say the boss sucks all the color out so you fight the boss in black and white. You do something then one person get there color back, and can start shooting the boss. Basically instead of all 6 shooting the boss in a dps phase make it so only 1 person at a time is in the dps phase
I think the one option I suggested on another video was a Sundering Glare-type proc but have it stack within itself (with diminishing returns, a cap, per-player, however it gets balanced). It'd still be skill-based, but it'd also help you support your teammates. Giving options to get that debuff would be nice
actually some more difficulty options would be awesome. imagine if after your first clear of a raid your next explicit challenge was a completion without exotic weapons/armor. on the other end of the spectrum a ridiculously easy mode so entry level players could experience raid content as form of training. it shouldn’t be that hard to implement we already have an array of modifiers to alter difficulty
@@tcritty2812 They never said it would give the exact same loot. I'd say if this did exist training mode with probably have Powerful Gear (Tear 1)? Whilst the harder mods would go to Pinnacle and nromal raid would be Powerful Gear (Tier 3)
@@AlsoIMainYoshi well what about locking the weapons behind the harder modes. Ultimately that’s what people will be doing the raids for, and will have the most difference on a player’s experience. Similar to what they do already, with some encounters only having certain drops. Before you try and tell me that armour makes the same amount of difference as weaponry…no, it doesn’t.
As a Dad of 4, one raid a year guy (maybe that precludes me), I'm cool with hard end game. I was kinda 50/50 until Datto brought up the coddling/not forcing people to get better issue. Pre Wife/Kids my D2 crew used to play WoW and I spent a ton of time failing/learning how to tank in BC and Lich King. Then Panda boi came out and turned my carefully honed rotations into 2 buttons. RUINED the game for me. Hard PvE gives the opportunity to fail and try again. The one issue though is the harder it gets, the less willing '50 clear guy' is to take someone like me through.
That whole coddling argument is kind of BS. What is hard is all relative. Some players feel the endgame is too hard as is, some think it's just right and even those who think it's too easy will heavily disagree on where the difficulty should be. I would bet $100 that Datto and Saltagreppo would heavily disagree on where the difficulty should be and would we argue one of them wants to be coddled?
@@mattf8779 W take, however I think we already know Tractor will just replace div if div gets nerfed so it doesnt really matter (including floating bosses like sanctified mind and oryx) I've tested on both and it is possible to keep tractor up for a strong debuff
@@tysonmartin6169 the thing is though that tractor was both widespread and downright not needed for heavy dps. I played a ton of last wish, scourge and levi runs and really the big must haves were nighthawks and tethers. Couldn't get those? All good we'll just two phase him. Nowadays you will need to have top of the line dps to meet those damagechecks with very difficult to access gear.
@@tysonmartin6169 For sure which is why if/when Div gets nerfed it won't be long after you will here tether, radiant, tractor cannon, well, bubble, banner shield, echo of undermining or the seasonal mod that debuffs are making this game "too easy" and how players that support keeping these things just want things "handed to them".
Saw a post on Twitter that was actually calm and an interesting suggestion about giving div a little nerf. It retains the ability to both give the debuff and the crit spot, just… not at the same time. Change the weapon to have an alternate toggle (with a visual/buff indication of which one you’re on- that’s also important) to EITHER give a debuff or a crit spot- that way depending on the situation or boss, you can swap up the best way to use div. On a fight like oryx or golgoroth, where the crit spots are fairly easy to hit, you can use the debuff to great effect, but in fights like Taniks or Rhulk, hitting the crit spot is a lot more tough- so the bubble crit would be much more useful. That makes the fights a bit longer as you would have to go through more ammo and potentially more phases to kill the boss, but you can more easily hit shots. On the other hand, higher skill players could utilize the debuff to potentially kill the boss faster but at the cost of higher skill.
I'd be perfectly fine with this. This is better than 95% of the hot takes thus far. This keeps the identity of the weapon and also gives it a better trade off.
If Div gets nerfed I’d probably be fine with it, but my biggest problem I’ve had since D1 is that sometimes it feels like you’re *required* to run a certain exotic to beat endgame content(cough G-horn and dark drinker) That’s why I love the caretaker encounter, your damage is literally capped so you have more options to damage and don’t have to 1 phase the boss, it feels like you have more freedom and fun
Exactly!! I'd be perfectly fine with a difficulty increase if it means I can use what I want to run. Being shoehorned into using lament, div, g-horn feels awful. I constantly get shit by my friends for not using lament in duality just because I desire to use something more enjoyable.
People actually have found out that you can two phase caretaker now. Just take it easy on the second plate, get him near the cap, then throw everything at him. I even saw lfgs that required you to know how to two phase caretaker.
Same. And I always hate when people chime in with the "you can beat everything without using this exotic" phrase but it just goes to show how little they must interact with the community. Try convincing an LFG team that they don't need to use optimal dps weapons or strats and you'll very quickly find yourself all alone in orbit. The reality of the situation doesn't matter, only the perception of the majority of the community. And a majority of the community deems it neccessary for most boss encounters.
Here's an idea: bungie should give Divinity the same treatment valve gave to the Equalizer. In tf2, there was a weapon that gave you both speed and damage boosts when on low HP, and because it was so OP, it was split into 2 weapons. One gave the speed boost, one gave the damage boost. If they did this with div, we could have Divinity granting the debuff but not the bubble, and a new exotic (probably granted to all players with divinity) that grants the bubble but not the debuff. You can even give it a cool name that's an antonym of Divinity, like impiety or something. This way, teams can choose to use either one or the other, or both. Using both would actually reduce your team's total possible damage (assuming both weapons deal relatively negligible damage), since 4*1.4 = 5.6, which is less than just 6*1. It's still a powerful option, but requires heavier investment to get the full bonus, and will be less universally useful with certain encounters not benefitting as much, for example encounters where more players have a job other than dps, like warpriest, where you'd be sacrificing a lot of damage using both while players are off hunting knights.
@@lancebriarwood503 nah you could solve that easy by making the bubble smaller and making it change locations every time the div or exotic user has to reload the bubble relocates
In a “Real MMORPG” there is something called rotations which is specially important for raid boss instances. Each group of player a require a certain class type (Tank, Healer, Dps) to properly and skillfully do their rotation to keep the optimal damage. I think that is what Datto refers to when he mentions other debuffs that have to be timed correctly. On both sides of the coin: -casual players rarely even have Divinity because it takes a Raid which anyone barely even does anymore. And due to the LFG being far from optimal you can’t really expect someone who plays a couple of hours a week to NOT want such an easy to use option. -Raids should require more skill. It is the endgame content that is the most attractive and rewarding. It SHOULD require not only mechanics but proper use of a subclass and ability to beat a raid encounter. But that SHOULD NOT happen until a proper LFG comes imo. It needs to define better what each person will do in a raid and which subclass.
I can totally understand the whole Divinity debate, both sides. So maybe we can get a compromise, what if instead of nerfing it per se, they raise the skill required to proc the bubble, what if the Div player has to constantly hit the crit spots on the boss or enemy to make the bubble appear, and that hitting the bubble doesn't work to keep the effect going? That way the Div player doesn't have to think "Just shoot body then hit bubble" but instead "Keep the beam on the crit spot, everyone else hit the bubble", also making the beam-tapping a little bit harder but in the end rewarding for dedicated Div users. Also it can help shape future bosses with more movement or other gimmicks on damage phases (Warpriest, Rhulk, etc)
And with this rework, div is now useful to the skilled player or improves the players accuracy as they get used to managing consistent crits and everyone eventually doesn't feel hassled by div because now it's a weapon dependent on more accuracy and skill to the point where "the div bitch" or any div user can realise "wait a sec, I am hitting a hell of a lot of crits, I can do pretty good dps"
While I agree with this take. This probably helps datto's perspective on "The easiest shouldn't be the best option" The whole drama is there because the gun became mandatory, in the hands of those who don't want to be forced to use it, this wouldn't change anything because they will hit the crit spot anyways and therefore bring it Everytime. The casual side will be annoyed they require more skill to use the gun, and the hardcore will still have to use it, so no one wins and everyone is mad. It will need a total rework which is not gonna happen tbh.
@@MattBiersackSanders The rich get richer, essentially. How about instead of hitting crits to proc bubble, you had to nail a rythm minigame like a variation of a perfect reload of some sort ? Or test some other skill than aim, so it would still be skilled, but allow people who suck at aiming to express their skill some other way ?
@Clockwork Man yeah exactly, especially Gladd who was complaining about "emblem handouts" when the DSC contest mode had easier light level requirements. In the end Gladd was wrong about the whole debacle, Contest Mode is a novelty that is starting to wear off for most of the casual playerbase as we had it for 4 raids now (DSC, VoG, Vow, KF). Most just check a bit on YT/Twitch to see the best strats and then do the raid on non-contest mode.
There was one good viewpoint that I saw a little while ago concerning the necessity of div, and that's PvE flinch. For some bosses like WP, who move around, lob shots, have a timer, and have adds, hitting these necessary critical is damn near impossible sometimes because of the massive amounts of flinch we are taking on a constant basis. I guarantee you, and boss that I can take as long as I need in order to kill it, I can without Divinity, but you throw that time limit on, and suddenly you have no ther option. You NEED that damage, you need ALL of it, and you need it NOW.
this gets brought up a lot and its not really the main issue with the gun is making crits easier, that functionality I think most people agree is what should stay. its doing that and the best debuff up for the whole damage phase and just being hands down the best option in many regards. I think everyone been targetting its crit multiplier or its dubuff in suggestions on how to fix it, my idea is drop the debuuff to like 15-20% and make it not proc perks that rely on crits, everything from 3rd/4th times the charms to whisper. Keeps most of its utility but there will be room for better options and you get rewarded for headshots still
Well maybe how Datto described that after nerfing Div they can “tune raid encounters without div” the sorta whole picture type part. Realizing how much precisions shots matter they’d most likely reduce the flinch of boss shots as too not make it unbearable, warpriest always used to move the difference is what feels like insane flinch compared to D1s. If flinch was tuned for PvE Scenarios then him moving is what would make that encounter semi-annoying but not unbearable; sure with flinch and him moving and Sister head bobbing right now it seems a little insane. But after a divinity nerf they’d be able to tune boss encounter more accurately which would include flinch and a variety of things.
I think this is a big D2 issue. The amount of damage it takes to stun a boss is purely ridiculous - one tether on D1 warpriest and spindle (D1 whisper of the worm) would stun lock him for the entire phase
@@MrFierygrave I totally understand the debuff being an issue, as it's the only one that has such massive strength overall. Tune that down to the pits of hell for all eternity. But the utility of divinity? The fact that i can actually proc that fourth times or triple tap or focused fire reliably? I think if we lost that, many entire raid encounters would have to be retuned to accept the fact that precision shots would simply be unreliable. If we want something that'll decrease its uptime, maybe just tone down it's ammo bags and make it a heavy?
I’d love to see them make div kinda like blistering necrosis from deep rock galactic. A weapon you use to create a small crit with a higher multiplier that you have to reapply every time you break it. I think it’s be interesting for the div user to have to apply div, swap to put in damage to their crit they made and swap back to div to keep reapply another one. Edit: by “like blistering necrosis” I mean it should be pretty small to compensate
Maybe make it like that, but remove the swap aspect so the div user has to keep div out. Maybe even make it start out small, but sustained damage makes it bigger, so the tap firing strat becomes a trade off of skill.
In my opinion, in a world where weaker debuffs now exist (void weaken debuffs), it probably makes more sense that Divinity matches those (15%), and not the higher end of debuffs (Tether, Tractor Cannon). Other alternative would be that consistently hitting crits on an enemy with Divinity makes the spot show up and sustain (though, they would have to make sure the ball shows up in a different spot than where you're shooting to avoid overlapping, so, basically something like Taniks, and obviously not allow the perk to extend by shooting the ball yourself).
Then there wouldnt be a reason to use it you can just throw your nade and call it good, you would then just go for damage then at that point.... and also there would be 0 reasons to run those exotics anymore... just make bosses harder to benifit from div by moving them around or they could just make a boss whipe you if you crit them... but thats just not fun.... i think div is fine.. high end players find the game to easy cause they run it with a stacked team every time a new raid comes out id love to see them run lfg's but they "dont have time" for that.... but lfgs are like how 90% of the d2 comunity completes raids / end game.
@@Honed- people would still run it because of the bubble, it just means that for harder content like day 1 there becomes a skill gap where people can coordinate higher debuffs and hit there shots
@@Honed- currently there is no reason to run tether or tractor cannon. Div will still have a home even if it doesn't give 100% the best debuff and make crits super easy, bosses like Rhulk and War priest who move a lot or have difficult to hit crit spots will still appreciate a div. it just wont be mandatory for every encounter going forward forever. bungie doesn't need to create a health pool damage check like war priest. I don't consider myself a high end player, though not a causual either i guess since i play a lot when an expansion comes out. but LFG's are incredibly easy still, being abel to LFG and get 3 Oryx kills within 3 hours of reset is crazy easy. There is a middle ground though where Div isn't the best at everything while also allowing players to use it to get through difficult content
i'd love to see what % of the playerbase has this gun and is willing to use it it's mostly to me just higher end skill players that ask for div and even then no one WANTS to use it
It really is just the higher end of players wanting it nerfed, lol I have Div and have had it since Shadowkeep - and personally, I love using it. Feeling useful for me team as the debuffer.
holding a laser doing minimal boss and not needing to aim is a really boring task, hence why people don't want to do it. higher end players know what are the best things in the game and that's why they enforce divinity. they have played any activity dozens of times and they know how long an activity should last. why would you honestly want to spend 3h on atheon when you could spend 13 minutes? it sucks to be dragged down because you decided to help some people who are bad at the game, you get punished for helping others
i'd literally never lfg again if div got a big enough of nerf, some of those guys... they're crazy... double primaries... sweet business for boss damage... then again, not even div could save that (but it would help)
I like using div, I'm not too good at hitting crits or buildcrafting yet so it gives me the opportunity to contribute to my team in a way that really helps everyone. Plus it's a fun little gun.
So hear me out just give div two fire modes, one is debuff no bubble the other is crit bubble no debuff. By doing that you keep everything people like in the game as an option, force more choice on players and actually give void Titan a use when well exists since it could be providing the void grenades since bubble is useless at the moment. This seems an easy fix for a few issues where I struggle to see how people could really complain, you could still achieve everything div currently does you’d just have to select a few things to do it but it also is a direct nerf to the gun.
This also only works if you still follow salts suggestion and make it so div debuff can’t be overriden. Otherwise you still get the bubble and just use tether.
i personally think div should work like this, have it build its buff from 15% to its max buff over the use of the gun it also holds its peak buff for short duration until trigger is held again to maintain buff, this then making it still up there but not killing it and making it vault exotic number 1284, this also eliminates the tap the trigger method thus another slight nerf, this overall should open them to make OTHER options please i want options and builds and stuff to do that result in the same reward
To launch a comment into the void, I agree completely with your take. Honestly the fact it's a 30% debuff is wild, I know at the time it likely made sense since 30% was the only debuff in the game, but now that we got void 3.0 and 15% debuffs, I feel toning it down to that would make infinitely more sense. That combined with another thought I had of making Penance Proc more so it did a bit more damage itself in all other forms of content I think would be just, really nice, an make it not *entirely* needed if you had a skilled team with other more powerful debuffs. But, as you say, we'll see if anything like this happens. If it doesn't, still gonna play the game, and still gonna sit there in my raid group half the time and be like 'alright, who wants to div?' and hear crickets until someone finally says 'alright I'll do it fine' xD. Would really love to go back to the days were that wasn't needed and tether hunters actually functioned as a subclass, but, hay. Until that day, div.
The reason Bungie is constantly 'making things easier' is because for the longest time barely a fraction of the playerbase touched endgame anything, making it incredibly difficult to justify expanding on that level of content. Instead, it constantly got cut back. We used to have Normal and Hard Mode raids with different mechanics, different armors, weapons etc. back in D1. But so few people did raids, much less Hard Mode, that it was impossible to justify continued support for it. Things being 'difficult' in the realm that high level players would like didn't force people to 'improve'. They just didn't touch the content at all. Meanwhile, since they've started making end game content easier and more accessible, player numbers for those activities have ballooned, and with it, Bungie has increased their support for them. Now we get new end game content every season instead of once a year. We can even see this in action for individual raids. Vow had much, much lower player numbers than DSC and VoG because it was made much more difficult to appease the high end of the hardcore crowd who thought DSC was 'too easy'. I'd argue that in this case, it's streamers and top tier players that are missing the forest for the trees. If Bungie followed through with what that crowd wants, and dramatically upped the difficulty in raids and dungeons and so on, all that would happen is that player numbers would crater, and then they'd either reverse course or simply cut back on the amount of content they make like before. I don't know about you, but I'd rather *not* go back to a single raid and maybe a dungeon a year.
The only thing I would say is that the div quest is one of the more lengthy ones. It would be a shame to see it cast into the abyss of our vaults never to be used again. It is also the only trace rifle that has any utility in the game.
@@ynybody1382 dude, such a tiny tiny tiny percent of the player base has completed GoS, and even less have divinity. This is so out of touch. Lots of players have to put in so much effort to get divinity.
While I personally think the gun does to much and agree with you on this take, I feel one solution could be to disable it in content that has challenger mode active. That would allow those that want/like the gun to still use it while for those who are actively trying something like worlds first has a more interesting/challenging experience.
Bingo Disable for day 1 world 1st races. And build encounters not worried about it because it will be disabled. Then Salt & other world first racers can find other solutions (that’s what he says he wants) and after race is over IF it trivializes the fights…. Who cares.
Only jssue is they make day 1 bosses too hard. You realise last wish if whisper of the worm was nerfed how it is now Noone would've been able to day 1 last wish. Bungie needs to work on either making weapons do more dps. Div isn't the issue. It's the weapon damage. I know div can make things easier but I don't want to have another dead exotic in the game.
I think the biggest takeaway from this video was the point of "It's in the game, therefore Bungie has to design around players using it." Very much tied into power creep, and if Divinity was nerfed into the ground, bosses could be rescaled. Warpriest on day one was a super hard 4 phase and, dare I say, impossible without the use of 1-2 people with Aeon's. Even Oryx was very healthy as well.
The community at large complains when warranted nerfs arrive because it destroys the "power fantasy". The integrity of the game is of no interest to the majority of players. I believe we spoke about this years ago - people like us avoided the no ads glitch in leviathan because it destroyed the integrity of the raid, making it not fun. However, we weren't the norm. Same goes for riven, or net limiting in garden. It's why I've lost interest in the game. Lightfall will be the first expansion I'm not buying. I miss Y1(pre whisper) when we were weak. Power fantasy has ruined the game for me.
@@ynybody1382 I mean two different things 1 is a weapon that the game designed around 2 is a glitch that literally breaks the encounter Also I ask do you really think you are willing to do Legendary Campaign 3 times in a row and feel the same experience every time
Can be said for a lot of things too. Add density has been ramped up but it seems like everything can blow up mobs of adds now or you can just camp the door. So people who don’t use one of the 47 weapons, perks or abilities to deal with mobs of adds think it’s too difficult. The other people use Trinity Ghoul w/ catalyst (just for one example) and shoot the ground to wipe out the whole room. Massive divide between the people who think the game is easy and the other people that don’t want to get better or just want to be able to use a blue weapon in the raids like they’re a streamer or something.
@@unknownredacted3513 Two things can be different and have similarities. In this case, the similarity is destruction of game integrity. Also, I have nearly 30 days of prestige leviathan played. I'm willing to replay content ad infinum if the content is good. Divinity makes content bad, which is I have quit destiny along with most of my friends.
Here’s an idea : make it kinda like Ager’s Scepter where there is 2 modes : 1 where it simply adds the crit bubble but with NO debuff, and 2 the charged mode where the gun applies the crit bubble and the debuff BUT it drains your super (also make the debuff 40% because it will last less long)
That is probably the best idea I've heard. Makes the gun actually interesting to use and might for people to choose between a Well/Bubble or the huge debuff. And it would mean that keeping the debuff up the whole time would require some planning, like stacking orbs in the dps area or running energy converter and stacking charged with light.
The easiest rework I could see is just give it a 15% debuff instead of 30%. Still makes it a great pick but now deadfall tether can make its appearance again as a support super. Or multiple Quiver tethers that coordinate their supers to keep the 30% on longer.
Problem is not div, It's boss fight design. The fact that we're still grouping in a circle as 6 to do damage after 8 years of Destiny is wild. Encounters like Rhulk and Caretaker address the Well of Radiance issue. Encounters like Shuro Chi, Crypt Security, and Atraks tackle Div. It's not impossible for Bungie to design encounters that are fun, yet don't feel like the purpose was to dodge Divinity. They've improved it over time too (evidence being that most of those examples are from the 2 most recent brand new raids).
I think it's because a nerf to divinity is an improvement for top level players because they get have more variety and challenge but for low level players its a whole new level of difficulty. To use the jeff bezos analogy imagine he does something and gets fined $10,000 yeah that's nothing and at most a minor inconvenience where as for the average person a $10,000 fine is crazy and outrageous and very much changes the way they do things. It affects the lower skilled player more and so it feels like salt in the wound for someone who can't regularly get into a raid with a solid team.
Here’s an idea for the top level players if they want a challenge:DONT USE THE FUCKING GUN! Why should all of us be punished because some elite players think things are too easy with it, that’s so fucked up.
@@abigaileileen3161 I think the main issue is that since D2 released, the exotic loot pool diluted a lot and a bunch of really strong mods are just unavailable outside of rare shop rotations. The only way to get the exotic we want like we used to is legendary lost sectors, but because of champions, if you don't have a weapon that supports that season's mods and matches shields/burns, you're just screwed. Basically, mid-level players can't bridge the loot gap with sweatlords without running strikes for a couple hundred hours. They wish they had challenging things to play to their level, but there's nothing between "braindead easy" and "have that weapon or die" difficulty. Any activity that rewards exotics at a decent rate is built around players have all of the gear at all times, and it makes it too hard for people who just don't. To keep it accessible to them, they have to make it easier, but the sweatlords are already bored so they can't. They need to bridge the two. Get rid of champions and increase difficulty some other way that doesn't hinge on people just following a guide on what to build and hoping they have everything in their shopping list already in their vault.
@@Darkness-dv6sz it isn't a punishment unless you're bad at the game. I'm no elitist by any means (I only get to play 3 nights a week at most) games should cater to ALL players not just the "biggest voice" which in this case the casuals have the voice above all since they are the majority. straight up tellin another player that is better than you that they can't have a voice since you're a "sweat" and be honest the majority of you are like this. I don't believe that EVERYTHIN a sweat says should be followed because it has been proven time and time again that, that kills a game, but makin the game so easy that its straight up BORIN is a game killer too. We NEED an in-between and Div bein a "solve all" isn't an in-between. Plus, where is the accomplishment if it's all easy cuz one person is holdin the trigger.
@@DarkAngelMaximus Casuals don’t have the biggest voice in the community, the streamers and RU-vidrs do. I can count so many instances where the big name players give a suggestion and Bungie does it. Most people don’t care if things are boring, they want to get a raid done and the loot for it, Div is an easy way to get it done. If you care so much about a raid being too easy or you want more challenge, make posts that ban Div, it’s such a stupid simple solution where the people that need Div to get loot win, and the people who don’t want to use Div can just…not. I bet you that without Div most people wouldn’t have gotten past Warpriest on Day 1
i think it should just be a more skillful weapon to use, to use able in all encounters type thing Imagine its a bow. charge the shot and the debuff is applied for 15 secs. but the debuff is only applied if the shot is a crit. this trace rifle version just means clicking your mouse a couple times a second, not very engaging
I like this idea, I think because it’s a trace rifle, it lowers the difficulty of the weapon significantly. Maybe with that bow idea, if it hit, it creates a div bubble at a random part on the bosses body, that way once it runs out, you also run the risk of your shots returning to body shots. And having it be random will also make it so the team still have to aim at a specific spot, making the weapon a bit riskier to use
I feel like without Divinity, there’s always gonna be that toxic group that says “Hit your crit shots or kick”, making LFG a lot less enjoyable. I’m not saying keep it, but I think the tuning is possible/doable at no issue. The whole “Bigger crit but less crit than normal” idea, I can see it.
They could add the crit bubble functionality to other things in the game. Imagine if tether gave a Div level debuff and made a little void crit bubble on the boss for the duration of the super?
I think for me the big thing that I like about Div is breaking up DPS team comp (you have a dedicated debuffer role instead of just 6 DPSers) and added accessibility (larger crit hitbox - especially helpful due to buggy and small crit spots on some bosses). But I worry that a pure nerf to its debuffing factor will lower its utility to the point that it will never be used.
Not to mention that outside of Divinity, we simply don't have any good or satisfying debuffs. Deadfall tether, the next most useful debuff, is like... six? Seconds, I think. It might be nine, but even if we tone down the boss health to compensate then... well I agree we have the problem of the whole team just being very homogenized. I like the support role.
In regards to Day one raids, I have been wondering: Can Div, or other weapons that are a bit cracked, not be disabled like Quick Silver-Storm was during Kings fall? This could help Bungie make the day one experience more of an experience, and not just a "Balance for the laser pointer/ that thing we at bungie know is fucken wild"
Um I don’t really know how to answer your question, but I’m pretty sure quicksilver storm was disabled because of an exploit which would have likely been kinda gamebreaking and unfair (since you have to preorder), it’s just the way it is I guess.
I highly doubt anyone will read this, but I might as well say it. I think it would be fun if the game was harder, but I don't personally think that nerfing div is how I would do it. I would be perfectly fine with taking more damage and having to focus more on survivability, but me and my friends usually aren't fantastic at dps and divinity can really help us with that. It's disheartening to be able to do raid mechanics almost perfectly and still end up losing because we just didn't do enough damage. Divinity can really help with our damage issues, and I'd rather the game make us play better in other aspects instead of just dealing more damage. It would be nice if they reduced health, but Divinity is still a nice option for my group when we can't do enough dps. Maybe I'm crazy or maybe I just need to get good, but that's my personal opinion.
Absolutely agree on this one. Divinity for me is meant to optimize the damage on bosses that have hard crits to hit. Managing to hit that actual crit should be more rewarding. And it definitely shouldn't be better than another heavy weapon for damage phases like Oryx
Maybe a good option for Div would be a ramping up debuff? Starts closer to a void debuff, and ramps up to the 30%? Make it also require a continuous beam, so no more staggered shots to save ammo.
Staggering shots only works due to net code shenanigans, if they were to "fix it" there's a good chance many non-american players can no longer use it as intended due to the bubble disappearing even when held down
If they don’t plan on directly needing divinity, I feel like they will change up encounter design. Like, we have bosses currently that do not use a divinity, namely Atraks. She has many components that hurt the effectiveness of Div, those being splitting the fireteam (as in small teams divinity is a dps loss), short damage phase (because it takes some time for the bubble to appear), and the ability to go for close range damage, as swords I believe do better than linears when they can be used. Another boss where div isn’t used is Shuro Chi, because she has a huge base crit multiplier, so much so that even with the debuff div will do less dmg than a regular shot. Also, there is precedent to the encounter design change idea. Vow of the Disciple is a hard raid to use Well of Radiance in, as Caretaker forces you to move plate to plate, and Rhulk moves around and attacks you, so Well isn’t as safe as usual. Of course, Well is still used, but it’s held back by the encounter design.
Another reason atraks is anti div is because she cant actually be debuffed. Hp bar works the same as security where theres a vandal in a box somewhere so debuffs just dont get applied. Though obviously if they did get applied you wouldnt use div anyways.
The thing that Datto and streamers similar to him have a very hard time understanding is that not everyone plays the game as a job. Not as in: he gains his money from this; but as in: he plays this the way he feels he HAS to play it because it is the best way. If it makes him have less fun, so be it. If it makes him hate his life, so be it. He's been a slave to the game in the past and it pops up every now and then. Remember he gained Reckoner, hating nearly every second of it, because he felt he needed the title. The purpose of a title, of course, is to show off the thing you liked doing. He did that to show he hated it, but collected the thing he told himself he needed to have. He had, what was it, nearly 100k kills on Go Figure, a weapon he repeatedly said he had grown to hate because it was the best one and he couldn't stop using it for that reason. Same with Recluse and so on. So while there is a valid point in his opinion to nerf Divinity, his pure dismissal of people who oppose that as 'stupid' and 'just want the game to be easier' comes from his singular minded nature playing this game. He has no idea some people don't need to see Divinity nerfed not for those reasons but because they play the game entirely differently. Not as a job, but as a fun experience, or as something of a greater sandbox: people who do not let themselves be enslaved by whatever is 'best'. I don't care THAT MUCH one way or the other if Divinity gets nerfed, simply because I extremely rarely use it. But I do not want it to be nerfed, because we did use it on Taniks, and it was a great way to do it that really worked well for our strategy. He says it is 'mandatory' because it is the best, most efficient thing, but we literally didn't use it in any other Raid because we're not players like that. So his opinion is fine and valid, and Bungie should do whatever they think is best, but him saying anyone who doesn't agree with him is a moron, idiot or whatever else really falls flat. He lacks perspective and that bothers me.
I mean Div has only been out for a few years. I've been playing since d1 and at no point did hitting crits really truly feel like a challenge. That being said, the bosses that have come out since Div was released are newer, with smaller crit boxes and move around a lot more. So it wouldn't be quite the same as it was prior to Div being released. Rhulk would quite easily be the hardest boss in the game to DPS without Divinity providing a crit due to how much he moves and how spread out his crits are, so any nerf to Div would require a SERIOUS nerf to a few bosses' health pools because otherwise they would be impossible to consistently do with an LFG team. However, I agree that they could get rid of Div's debuff or nerf it significantly, without affecting too much. Div would still be used a ton but wouldn't be a requirement in very hard content if players can consistently hit shots
I like the Idea of removing or lowering the debuff percentage of Div :P Would be a small step to actually having to build a PvE build for a specific role, like Support, Damage and Tank etc.
@@bannedmann4469 Not sure what you mean, I play on PC and rarely have an issue, except for a few outliers like the shriekers and minotaur stomachs sometimes. Unless you’re referring to console? Haven’t played d2 on console since release
@@bannedmann4469 yeah I get that, I mean I played it on console for a short time when it first came out and it didnt feel too bad from what I remember but it’s definitely not as good as m&k. Controller must have gotten better with the recent fov/sens changes tho right?
if anything, they need to make div stronger, it should automatically reload all weapons and grenades in the vicinity and send out a healing burst every time you reload it. Maybe Banshee could make it so that you fire a rocket while reloading as well, or a nova bomb, either works for me. The catalyst could make it so that the boss drops pinnacle gear every time one of the reload rockets (or nova bombs) lands.
And while you're at it, make the last round of the mag insta kill whatever it is you're shooting at regardless of whether the damage phase is over or not.
The thing about div to me is that 5x1.3>6. Salta said something about how removing div’s damage debuff wouldn’t do much, but I think it would help a lot more than initially implied. Yes, you could use another source of debuff and retain the div status, but what exactly does a 30% debuff? Tether and tractor? There might be more but I don’t remember. So, if they removed div’s damage buff, you would need to now most likely swap off of a damage super and use deadfall for longer phases, or moebius quiver for burst, or have another guy use tractor cannon. To replicate “old” div you would need to sacrifice a source of damage, making dps strats more interesting, while also rewarding teams that don’t need div. While it wouldn’t fix every issue, simply removing the damage debuff from div, or making it only apply to champions, would work as a simple solution to satisfy both sides of the div debate.
To the 30% debuff portion, Hammer Strike used to provide that but I believe doesn't anymore in Solar 3.0. Flawless Execution (now Stylish Execution) invis melee used to grant 30% but I believe now it only weakens for 15% like the other void fragment grenade debuff. When you consider these things took more effort than Div and got either nerfed or removed, it's kinda Sadge. EDIT: Apparently Felwinter's Helm is still 30%.
I think if div is nerfed to 15%, it can still hold a place for less-skilled players, while other options can get some usage for teams who know how to coordinate
5x1.3>6x isn't fair considering in that 6 situation you still have tether or weaken to use. So its more so 5x1.3vs6x1.15 or 1.30. At that point it comes down to how many crits can 6x miss before 5x passes them with easier to land crits.
Divinity isn't unmatched in damage - it's unmatched in ease of use. 3 void hunters on tether + 2 well of radiance warlocks (for a bit of wiggle room) gives 6 people doing full dps a permanent 30% damage increase + well at all times thanks to shared orb generation. "They just have to hit their shots" as it goes, since there's no div bubble. As a raid, this narrow setup provides 20% damage increase over divinity but... you are forcing 5/6 people into very specific subclasses. This is probably the real reason why Bungie won't nerf div in the current sandbox. If div is knocked down, the gap between 3 void hunters + 2 solar warlocks and the 'next best thing' gets bigger. If that gap gets big enough, people will start feeling forced into running a very restrictive and narrow setup, which will put a massive damper on build variety in late game. Also, with a growing gap between [this hyper specific setup] and [the next best thing after div is nerfed], what does Bungie balance towards? If bungie balances around the hyper specific 3 hunter + 2 warlock setup, then running anything else becomes WAY less viable as the next best thing may be dealing close to ~30% less raid damage now. If Bungie balances around the next best thing, then this hyper specific setup will start to trivialize even day 1 raids as it will be doing ~30% more damage than the encounter is designed for. RIP titans then. Divinity allows bungie massive freedom in designing bosses to not require any specific classes/subclasses (though well of radiance is still a thing). Someone might think "Hey, requiring a class isn't a bad thing, so long as every class is in some way needed. That gives each class unique flavor. The opposite is no class being needed which makes them homogenous and boring." And they wouldn't be wrong. It's a tight rope to walk, and every game developer tries to balance a class' uniqueness vs its inclusivity the best they can. I think the current sandbox makes the classes feel different enough while also making none in particular feel SUPER necessary (except maybe well of radiance). As for divinity... you don't need one to be 'optimal.' In fact, using one is technically always (?) suboptimal. But it lets people have fun with their build while (generally) forcing 1 person to always be using it. The alternative is forcing specific subclasses. Which way do you go? Which one is better? Which one is more fun for more people, for longer? There are no definitives in life. This is a balancing act. I don't want to throw any shade at anyone, but 'gun bad because it makes game too ez' seems like almost as thoughtless a take as 'elitist person bad because they want to nerf me.' It's just never that simple. FWIW, I agree though. Divinity probably is a little too strong. But nerfing it to any real degree would likely require a cascade of changes to follow suit. Now we are looking at huge development time put into rebalancing the entire endgame raid environment. Is that worth it? In short: bring back pocket infinity you cowards. EDIT: Oh and **puts on my armchair game developer hat** the real solution isn't nerfing divinity. It's to let debuffs stack up until a capped %. Sundering glare? Go for it. Mix it with a weakening grenade to reach the "debuff cap" of 30% or whatever. This lets many different mechanics all participate synergistically without any singular thing being able to truly outclass the others and without any becoming 'useless.'
I think that the best case scenerio for both sides would just to be increase the crit multiplier for the raid bosses so that Divinty wouldn't be as effective while also providing a very small health bump to compenstate for the increase crit multiplier. Shuro Chi is a great example because div would still be useful there for more casual players who can't hit the tiny head; however, the more skilled player would have an advantage by not using div and shooting her in the head and using other debuffs for more of a reward. Thats just my thoughts
I finally got the chance to do a raid with some friends (a lot of us it was our first time raiding in D2) and we did VoG. Atheon had enough health that we failed to the enrage timer twice and only barely scraped by due to taking a good while to look up what the highest damage options we have are. Not saying it's the fault of Divinity or anything like that. Just saying that even with pretty solid weapons and good performance we were failing the damage check and couldn't kill Atheon in 4 damage phases. I wouldn't mind a slight retuning and bringing Div or some other meta strat down so that boss health can decrease a bit that would help a lot.
I think every kill my teams have done of Atheon in D2 have been WITHOUT Divinity (not during contest mode obviously). So I'd say the problem was with your team and not the encounter itself.....
Unfortunately this is not the case I will not be a rude ass hat, but I will say you guys may actually be under equipped and under skilled. VoG is extremely easy and I run it with my team without using DIV once ah but here is the thing I play a lot of Destiny 2 and so does my team in fact we day one Kings Fall. Now VoG is still high end content it's what people grind towards to play. The reality is if you guys got DIV you would actually have a easier time which is the whole point the game isn't hard it's a skill issue one where DIV helps overcome and there in lies the problem should the game be easy for you the casual player.
Were all 6 of you raiding or the first time? Because that is 100% the reason you aren't dealing enough damage. I spent 5 hours on atheon with a 1290 (During splicer) and we wiped because of people fucking up oracles, not because of damage. There wasn't even huge ultra mega damage stuff either with breach, most of us were using sleeper
Your team may have gone into a raid too soon. Get more and better gear from other activities first. Also using weapons against Atheon is a bad choice. Just spam grenades to clear it in one phase. Use fusion grenades (best on warlock with touch of flame/ember of ashes and starfire protocol). Normal uncharged scatter grenades are fine on any class but hunters could do this with echo of undermining and morbius quiver to debuff the boss. Storm grenades on titans using touch of thunder, spark of magnitude/shock, and heart of inmost light to buff the grenades is ridiculously powerful
More difficulty options. More difficulty options. Bungie. More difficulty options. The hardest part of a strike is keeping pace with speed runner's. More difficulty
I like the crit spot for accessibility reasons and for newer players but there should be something else with a higher skill ceiling that can provide a better debuff
A deadfall buff could literally fix this to have closer towards D1 level of tether being the main debuff but its last such a short time on bosses that even on GOS its only barely better than div
My issue with Divinity is that it is always an awkward moment when someone askes "who has Div" and we wait for someone else to say "I do". I am fine with supers being mandatory because if you cannot do a 3 second thing in a 30 second DPS phase, then that doesn't affect you that much. But when you suddenly have to use a weapon that you don't enjoy and most other people don't enjoy using for every damage phase through out the whole raid, it isn't fun. In a raid, someone is gonna be the pathetic sad person on the side using Div while the others get to have fun DPS-ing. That is why I don't like Div, the game being too easy argument is one I have my own thoughts on but they are not related so I will not mention them here. My team can't just have no one not use a div because no one is stupid enough to come to that decision, if you think that is a reasonable thing to say, never use LFG again cause your probably greifing the team you join.
You never need Div outside of day one, it’s a convenience thing. It’s definitely good to use during LFGs though, makes everything smoother which is why it shouldn’t get nerfed
@@TheFawse The game has become far too easy. We can DPS at an insane rate compared to launch and the power creep is getting out of hand. It’s not a matter of “you can choose not to use these”, it’s a matter of the game being far too easy and losing its charm because of that.
@@TheFawse "You never need Div outside of day one". If I offered you 50K and 100K a year, which one would you take? You could live quite comfortably with 50K but you could do much more with 100K. That is the Div issue, just because you don't need it doesn't mean anyone is stupid enough to not use it. As for the LFG smoother thing, there are ways to change Div so that it takes the same time and effort to kill a boss for players with tumbs while allowing Div to be used by LFGs to make up the difference. But other people have gotten into those already, I am just here to say the why not the how. It is a Game Designers job to prevent players from optimizing the fun out of games, this has been known for decades. Bungie have failed their jobs with the creation of Div and made their jobs harder as well.
I think Last Wish is a perfect example it was one of the most difficult day 1 raids and even after contest mode still challenging enough but not to the point where it was as sweaty ass day 1. I think thats a nice middle ground personally.
I think a lot of it has to do with the mechanics too. Vault ended up being the most difficult part during day 1 because of its complexity. Riven legit has ended up actually being the most enjoyable raid boss fights too date. Bungie needs to go further in this direction if they aim to remove “problems” like div, well, resil, etc
Last Wish problem was actually the extreme light level requirements. Very few raid teams actually competed because they abused Prime Engram dropping to get to a respectable high light level. Even then the light level requirement was so high that they spent hours in encounters. Nowadays we overlevel the LW content. I dont think LW is the play. While old players look LW fondly (mostly because Dreaming City had many resources spent) it was very bad publicity for the game, a game already quite grindy. Even though Black Armory is one of D2's best seasons, many players quit because they couldnt stand the extreme grind. Which would become even worse in the coming seasons (example reckoning drop rates). Do note that Menagerie was one of D2's good seasons (even though it didnt have the Forge season numbers), exaclty because you could abuse glitches and get multiple weapon drops.
I think for him to say that is ironic but also that a game doesn't need to be easy to be accessible and vice versa if divinity makes certain situations and encounters accessible instead of easy and they can work around a solution for it weapon can remain great and as someone who's neither casual or elitist I just think the elitists should be more open and willing to really help the newcomers(a lot don't obviously)we all were new at one point or time and some others just may need a little understanding also newcomers shouldn't expected to be carried but learn it themselves to pass it on so we as a community can be stronger I really don't think divinity I a problem to me it's not an instant win button and is situational
It’s the fact that anytime a streamer has one gripe about something. Is right when Bungie decides to do something. Cause your the only ones they listen to
Dear Mr Datto, In terms of your divinity argument itself, the only absolute truth you shared is that people will argue for a week only to end up with zero opinions changed. But I take issue with the overall attitude towards ‘the community’. The irony is I actually agree with you on a lot of the things you say. The general Destiny community don’t want to get better, don’t want real challenges and get way to attached to things staying the same as always. The eulogy of the Destiny community will be “a retreat to familiar ground”. That said, your tone is just awful. The condescending condemnation of the community you mark as a pillar is just awful. Don’t get me wrong, it sucks that you get harassed because you think the game should be harder. But at the risk of sounding cliche, two wrongs don’t make a right. You have a responsibility to this community, and you stand from a point of privilege. That’s a mean truth, which I appreciate is wholly frustrating. But in the face of adversity it is not your job to call other people stupid just because they called you stupid first. For all the valid arguments you’ve made, and for all the sympathy I could have for your situation, I honestly am just ashamed that a creator such as yourself would stoop to fruit hanging this low.
I think they could simply lock out Div for day one races. caters to the us challenge chasers whilst still not changing the functionality of Div in the sandbox.
Salt didnt just „suggest” a nerf. He fucking cried about the game being too easy and boring for him because he spends 20 hours a day in raids doing meaningless challenges and low man completions. By the way, I am not a casual player who would be affected by this the most. I am actually a hardcore destiny veteran with 7k hours in D2, mainly playing pvp and I actually empathise with the casual community for the first time ever. Elite pve teams like Greppo and his buddies have so much time spent in raids that they know even flinch patterns from bosses. Meanwhile for normal players, pve flinch is insane. Trying to use a triple tap linear on a boss thats moving a lot (Rhulk) or shooting you (Warpriest) is fucking insane. My guess is that Salt’s team has found a better/flashier way to melt bosses and they want to make themselves look better than others by getting div nerfed 🤷♂️
@@Milxie When you make statements about the game, you have to mention your playtime in order to be taken seriously. If you’re making a comment like this, I bet you’re the kind of player who plays 5 hours per week and thinks they have a right to ask bungie for changes
Agreed with your entire point until you mentioned day 1, policing yourself and holding yourself back is Forsure game designer issue but in the same breath you can’t literally say if you’re trying to challenge yourself you have any issue with divinity. Either day 1 or competition is the problem or leave it alone as simple as I can put it .
