You won't believe how DANGEROUS this could be! 

Pleasure to work with you Jon, hopefully anyone flying with a dry powder extinguisher will be removing it after seeing this

OMG... That too me back to the late 70's/early 80's. When I was an apprentice aircraft fitter at The College of Air Training, at Hamble. We only went out on the airfield for a ground engine run. I was sat in the rear of a PA.28. Just as we started the engine, I accidentally set off the fire extinguisher, under the pilots seat, with my foot, with very similar results to your video. It was the fastest evacuation of an aircraft you would ever see!! We initially thought it was an engine problem. It took me a while to live that down. 🙄

Excellent video. Thanks for highlighting this. How many of us give this much thought? Possibly not many. I know that all i did was check the fire extinguisher for mounting , security, and in date. This was never brought up in my flying training years ago. This has certainly opened my eyes to what if?? Very disappointing that the CAA did not offer up any advice or anyone for comment! Thank you

I was a part time fire fighter for 21 years, so I found this very interesting, It brought back fond memories of my training which was usually at a local refinery here in Pembrokeshire.

Dry powder is REALLY good for breaking up fights... Really good.

Good to see this topic covered. I was on the Fire Crew at Fairoaks back in the mid 1980's to the early 1990's and trained with all the then current mediums for fire fighting. It is fascinating to note here, that even back then, we were 'on notice' from the CAA that HALON was 'about to be banned' and was on a short term limited extension as nothing else quite like it had been developed for use in aircraft. It contains a serious amount of CFC and therefore, even back then, known to be harmful to the environment and in close proximity to people, not at all good for you! However, it was...is, very effective! I am amazed that it is still, 'about to be banned'!! That tells me that despite huge advances in so many areas of aviation, motor sport and other specialist areas where technology and time has been invested to find new ways of doing things.....this issue has been left on a shelf rather too long! The use of dry powder was always discussed and trained for, as the last resort if in any form of confined space and we always knew that should you let one off in a cockpit or cabin area, in flight, it would likely be game over. We hated them unless we were fully in the open and could safely retreat from the powder. Also, we were always cautioned on using it on aircraft fires on the ground as the exceptional damage caused to anything the powder got into, would likely end up writing off the aircraft, unless that was the likely scenario anyway and there was no alternative available. It's worth noting the same holds true for your car!! C02, whilst robbing you of precious oxygen if used in quantity in a confined space, (triangle of fire!?) was possibly a better option to carry. Although there is a small risk of ice burns if the extinguisher is mishandled during deployment. Obviously Fire Crews on the ground will deploy foam as well, for a large number of applications involving an aircraft incident, but that is not a practical option for 'in flight' fires either! Extraordinary the CAA failed to even respond to your requests..... again, it's as though this issue has just been shelved for years in the hope it might not come up at all.....? It will be very interesting to see what the industry turns to as a replacement for HALON, if it is indeed actually withdrawn from next year....🤔 As a post script: it is also worth considering what will be recommended for use when your lithium ion battery pack in your iPad or phone, or laptop, goes 'pop' mid flight! There is an ever increasing reliance on lithium ion batteries in every electronic device and even some aircraft systems and propulsion units. Who is working on that one with the CAA!? Those things are seriously nasty when they decide to let go and the thought of it happening in the cockpit or cabin of a light aircraft or helicopter is the stuff of nightmares.

Co2 is five times less efficient than BCF and is likely to knock you out before it puts the fire out. I taught firefighting procedures to more than 55,000 cabin crew and pilots to multiple airlines. Very different procedure on a large airliner. I now teach helicopter pilots and private pilots. My advice as we tend to fly at much lower altitude, is land as soon as possible, evacuate and if without endangering yourself and you feel confident, use the extinguisher to try and extinguish the fire. Oh, and I am an ex-colleague of Marvin.

The Wreck is an ex Air Cadets Grob 109b Vigilant. I noticed near the start of the video there was a green BCF extinguisher, I thought that these had been banned quite a few years ago (The production of BCF and similar chlorofluorocarbons has been banned in most countries since January 1, 1994 as part of the Montreal Protocol on ozone depleting substances)

Thank you for that eye opener demonstration

Very helpful video but there is one thing I can add to this. During my multi engine flight training in the US, my instructor hit the dry chemical fire ext. mounted to the front of the copilots seat with his heal. The pin had been missing for some time and it went off for about 2 seconds. The nozzle was pointed up and it filled the front of the cockpit quickly. The windshield, charged with static electric charge, attracted the powder and it stuck there. Now we could not see out because of the powder covering the windshield. No problem; just use the instruments. That was not possible because the vacuum powered gyros had caused a static electric charge on the glass of the faces and they too wore covered with the powder. I used the side windows until the instructor cleaned the windshield which was no easy task.

Great video Jon, highlighting an important, latent hazard to all GA pilots. It was disappointing that the CAA neglected to engage with you on this topic, let’s hope AOPA make some headway with them during their forthcoming meeting. Keep up the good work! 👏

Thanks for this Jon. I am sure someone has said it but often I find fire extinguishers are either hard to get to or/and in cradles that are easily knocked open. The result, a loose fire extinguisher that could get under the pedals or jam other control systems. I did have the use of the extinguisher mentioned back in my training but it was for breaking the glass on the VSI (with the important proviso that you remove the needle too to stop reverse readings!) if you had a static air blockage/issue. I hope the extinguisher will always remain unused in its secure cradle and I wish others the same too!

It’s amazing what I don’t know and knowing some of what I don’t know makes me wonder about what else I don’t know. Thanks for helping me be a little bit wiser.

Thanks for covering this subject.

Classic CAA. Always eager to regulate & prosecute, clam up at difficult questions. Given the difficulty of even using a half mil chart in a typical spam can, the chances of accessing & operating any sort of extinguisher while maintaining control of the aircraft are pretty remote. I'd opt for the immediate forced landing.

Very thought provoking video, Jon. I can see the aviation community will benefit from your passion for flight mixed with your journalistic experience. I'm looking forward to hearing the response from the CAA and trust you will continue to push them for one. Also, as a veteran of Shawbury Tower, it's always good to see Sleap represented. Great advice from Marvin. Another example of mixing expertise for the greater good.

Interesting - food for thought. It would have been interesting to see a comparison of all three fired in the cockpit.

A lot of food for thought there Jon, thanks for bringing this out. I didn't know the CAA was banning Halon next year. It's what our club aircraft carries...

Great video and valuable information. I remember doing a CAA fire and rescue course at Sandown Airport in the early 90’s which included using all the fire extinguishers and AFFF. Great fun but fantastic experience which I carry with me while flying in NZ 👍

Thanks, Jon, for this very informative & valuable lesson on one of those critical areas that, ironically, are taken for granted but not properly understood.

I’ve always considered the most important use of the extinguisher was , following a forced landing, in a crash. Even if the door had been cracked on the way down it might be inoperable after everything stopped! The bottom of the cylinder could be used to get through the acrylic, and/or smash the door open. It’s pretty tough. Then used , if fuel from the wings has ignited , as advertised ,to enable the pilot to make a successful escape.

thanks jon and marvin for bringing this to our attention.

I have been wondering about this for a while now. Great vid!! Greetings from East Anglia

Good video. I've often not relished the idea of deploying a powder-based extinguisher in a cockpit. Even with short bursts, I'd probably end up with compromised vision which would make flying and landing a lot more difficult.

Very informative. I will be replacing my dry powder extinguisher very soon.

Shame you didn’t touch on the option of Water Mist fire extinguishers. Suitable for all fire types except metal and yes it can be used on fuel and electrical fires below 1000V. The deionised water and fine particle size makes it safe. As the cabin water mist trials showed after the Manchester disaster another benefit of water mist is the knocking back of temperature and smoke. It’s also way cheaper and more environmentally friendly than the alternatives. The engineers will be happy if you use one, as it leaves no residue. During COVID several airlines installed water mist extinguishers in the cabin when acting as freighters carrying boxes of PPE in the cabin. Maybe worth raising with CAA when you meet them.

I've run through the checklist/drill multiple times, and had a vague sense that actually using an extinguisher in the cockpit of a 172 would be... suboptimal, but it's very helpful to see one used. I'll have to check the type in the aircraft I'm training in, but it's good to have some sense of what to expect if an extreme situation warranted the use of an extinguisher rather than being surprised on top of the cabin fire while in the air. Great idea to check into this and a very helpful demonstration! Thanks!

Good video, I have always had a foam existisher in my track cars.

Great report. I've known about this issue for years now, but it needs more traction to get pilots briefed. It would have to be pretty dire situation for me to use any extinguisher in the air. I was taught to remove heat (turn electrics off), and/or fuel(Fuel shut off) and get on the ground ASAP. Which, will depend on the type of fire. Marvins advice is good. I would also urge pilots, especially renters, to be familiar with the extinguishers. I noticed you fumbled removing the pin from that Dry Powder extingisher and needed to be prompted (I suspect the first time you have seen that type). BTW CO2 also creates a white-out

An excellent video providing great information to the GA community, I was an instructor at Redhill back in the mid 80’s, we where tasked with providing our own fire cover using the airport fire truck while Bristows had their own fire vehicle. We all had a two day course every 18 months if memory serves via one of the instructors at Gatwick. Our training highlighted all the points you raised during this presentation. Well done and best of luck with the CAA, I already know what they will say as their lawyers won’t allow them to make a definitive statement on this but something like, “All aircraft fires are different and each aircraft would add to the variables involved so no one procedure would cover all eventualities, our advice would be to land as soon as possible and use the fire extinguisher as needed.” That’s my guess?

That’s one of the ex RAF Grob 109b Vigilant. The UK government decided to end the service and scrap the fleet.

Thought provoking: I honestly don't know what sort of extinguisher I have in my aeroplane... but from what I've seen and heard here, I don't think any of them are appropriate for use in flight. My take is that the purpose of the extinguisher is to put a fire out on the ground.

Absolute disgrace that the CAA did not engage.

I never thought of this …….. so if there is a fire in the cockpit master switch off vents closed, throw my water bottle at it and hope for the best 😂😂😂😂

Thanks for another great video on an interesting topic since the demise of Halon. I have a dry powder, but would never consider discharging it in flight because I was aware of the result that you demonstrated so well! If you have identified a fire (flames) in the cockpit, complete a precautionary landing ASAP, and then use the dry powder. Better still what about the new clean agent extinguishers?, such as FireShield 1kg (£84) unit which you could consider using in flight with adequate ventilation. Keep up the good work!!

Very interesting! Thanks a lot!!

What about "Clean Agent" fire extinguishers? These are generally sold as the replacement for Halon promising to be non-corrosive to electricals and hopefully our lungs. They look in videos to produce little to no dust cloud, would be interesting if the CAA could clarify if these are the intended replacement to Halon for GA...

I had a 5kg dry powder extinguisher discharge itself in a truck cabin at night while I was travelling on a motorway. It was not a pleasant experience. I had no idea what was going on. I thought the truck was on fire. I ended up in hospital with breathing difficulties and eye irritation.

Very good video, lots to think about, thanks for spreading the awareness.

All very interesting and a great reminder that none of these types of extinguisher (Halon / BCF / CO2 / Dry Powder) should be used in enclosed spaces such as a light aircraft cockpit. They may well kill the fire, but they will also kill you. Not a great result. No mention of AFFF (Aqueous Fire Fighting Foam) or similars though? There are a number of these types of extinguisher available, and they can be used on any type of fire. They make a (watery foamy) mess, but nothing toxic or hard to clean up. Trying to fight a fire in a small and confined aircraft cockpit presents more issues though, especially if you are solo. You have to actually fly the aeroplane at the same time as well. Perhaps less thought should be given to using the fire extinguishers available, and more thought on getting on the ground asap? Side slipping to loose altitude quickly (and keep any flames to one side), is one strategy, and there will be many others to get you on the ground and away from the fire. The thing is, think about it before hand. Rehearse what you would do. Think about different eventualities and possible outcomes. Chances are it will never happen, but being mentally prepared means you have a better chance of surviving.

Great topic John and greetings from N Ireland

At Republic Airport, on Long Island in the US, there was a fire in a Piper Archer. There was an instructor on board, and two passengers. He first reported it as a possible electrical fire, and turned around immediately toward the airport. It turned out to be an engine fire. I think all were fatally injured. I have never heard of an engine fire in this type of plane, and I have flown the Archer, the Warrior, and the Cruiser, many times. I have never come across a NTSB account of what happened

Jon, the fire extinguisher in the Saratoga I fly is a joke in that its placement makes it almost impossible to retrieve in the event of a fire. More specifically it lies between the feet of front passenger seat and that for the second passenger row. Actually, the only person who could reach it would be, an individual sitting in the second or third row-the Saratoga second and the third row are in a club configuration….. maybe being hard to reach is a good thing based on your video video 😀😀😀

In terms of the type of fires that different extinguishers are "good" for, gas extinguishers are good for relatively enclosed spaces (obviously bearing in mind the fact not particularly with you in them) like engine cowlings as said or the cockpit/cabin on the ground or indirect fires (for example behind panels etc), and powder/liquid extinguishers are good for smothering a fire in the open, there is no magic extinguisher that will be good for all and as also said, it's about risk/benefit just like other parts of being a pilot in an emergency.

Such an important topic and a real shame that the CAA didn't engage with you Jon! A real missed opportunity on their part!

All three of the aircraft I flew had the fire extinguisher behind the rear seats. I don’t think I could have reached them in flight so I assumed they were for small post crash fires.

Very interesting viewing, but how sad to see one of the old Air Cadet Vigilant motor gliders ending up being used like this.

PPRuNe have an interesting thread from 2012 on "You have an electrical fire in the cockpit..."

Brilliant video. Thank you.

Pity the CAA couldn't get back to you on this. Hopefully there will be something coming from them.

Haha love they did it on an old RAF Vigilant who’s fleet was discharged for safety reasons 😂 Did my first solo in one.

That wreck is a Grob 109 Motor Glider :-). Great video on this neglected subject. Brilliant piece of advice for in-cockpit fire, get it on the ground and hand it back to the insurance company. I keep one of these in the cockpit: StaySafe 5in1 Fire Extinguisher, It's got good reviews and is supposed to be non-toxic etc. I'd only let it off in the cockpit as a last resort.

We've demonstrated here that Halon is the only viable option. CO2 extinguishers are not an option for light and ultralight. I had smoke in the cockpit due to a loose fuse and letting off the extinguisher in flight never crossed my mind, just landing asap was. I think his advice is correct. Fire is the most urgent of emergencies where you need to be on the ground, so advice on how to do an emergency decent would be helpful I don't think its in any PoH. But 8,000ft to ground is still going to be at least 3 minutes.

There doesn't seem to be perfect extinguisher for this application. That's why CAA satcon the fence as they wouldn't want to be implicated giving the incorrect advice ⚠️

2:07 looks like a Grob 109B to me 😂 Fly safely indeed

Holy Crow! During intro I sort of worked it out, but really had no idea. Guess that's why in commercial flight the 1st thing is MASK....

I wonder if the European EASA or American FAA have any guidance, in the absence of CAA guidance

Check FAA AC 20-42D for recommended halon replacement extinguishers. halon or halotron are the only extinguishers you should use in the cockpit of a ga aircraft. my mech put in a powder extinguisher when the halon expired but i keep the halon as a first responder

Dry powder, although cheap will make a right mess. Afterwards any damp will mix with powder and corrode plugs in electrical circuits. Also someone told me gives you the trots. Halon is better but costly. If plastic burning the CO2 force blows the soot all over the place. Have used all at some point. Any smoke in cockpit hit master switch off.

Hopefully halotron or inergen become more readily available outside the USA for aviation.

We had a dry powder fire extinguisher at work (work is fuel related). Someone set it off in a vehicle and totally ruined the interior. Could never get it fully clean again. We moved the vehicle to another site shortly after!

No surprise CAA didn’t engage. I doubt our FAA would have either. They care only about being restrictive and punitive, not about being proactive and helpful.

Datacentres seem to have mostly switched from halon to FM200 systems from what I've seen, I wonder if you can get portbale versions and how well that'd work...

In the good old days we had a dispensation to have Halon extinguishers fitted until a better solution was found. None was, but the collapse in availability of Halon as an extinguisher meant in time they could not be replaced.

Interesting topic. Thanks for sharing. I never expected to use an extinguisher inside the cockpit, particularly while flying. I would only use it for an engine fire when on the ground. Greetings from a Piper Turbo Arrow III owner, based in Kestrel Air Park (1T7) in central Texas, USA.

ICAO guidelines specify Halon for aircraft cabins, anything else is either not suitable or a danger to the crew. Dry powder is corrosive and very dangerous in a confined space of a small aircraft cockpit. Currently it is very hard to get Halon (BCF) due to it affects the ozone, it is only allowed for aviation.

The Halon extinguishers smell better.....Had one go off in a C172 and could open both windows thankfully! Powder looks really bad...wow

It's a Grob 109B air cadet motor glider

It is appalling that CAA "did not respond" to one of the most important topics ignored in general aviation and training. That alone should be publicized until they do respond, it makes no sense why they would not engage in any discussions about it.

Hold up. A pilot is unsure when to make the decision to use a fire extinguisher, and the chief DOESNT think that person would need more training? If you have a confirmed fire, you use your extinguishing agent. Confirmed means you have any two of the following: fire light, abnormal ENG indications, smoke/fumes or abnormal electrical indications. And if you SEE a fire that’s confirmed. Use your extinguishing agent! Clear as that. Now you’re landing as soon as possible, unless you’re on a helicopter and your gearbox is on fire then your landing/ditching immediately

I had my old TR7 car caught fire in cabin, if that happened in a aircraft you would be dead in 10 seconds. I would hit the maser switch off straight away. Did it once in 152, landing light switch was smoking and welded on.. I think you have to assume any extinguisher for external use.

The alternative to Halon, at least in Australia, is Halotron.

Oh....the fuselage and cockpit appears to be from a rather sad looking Grob 109 motor glider? ......not a Katana I think...😊

What about water mist or foam?

Why would anyone think dry powder should be used for an electrical fire? Obviously short blasts would be the more prudent. Do they have Halguard or Halotron (or something equivalent) in the UK?

Why would you use your fire extinguisher? It’s for fire, not smoke.

Using dry powder is bad on the ground around airplanes as well. The powder is highly corrosive dry and even worse when wet as when trying to wash it off. Generally an airframe that sees this powder is no longer airworthy.

Interesting video but I’ve never heard of an instrument panel catching on fire. Was it the Altimeter or the vertical speed indicator that you were aiming at?

My big takeaway from your video. Don't use a long blast. That was farctoo ridiculous. You know you are in a confined space so a short blast, re assess the situation and repeat as necessary. I was in the RAF for 12 years and every year we had fire and first aid training, as well as other things.

If you didn't get a answer then you talked to a government agency for sure!

Do you think aircraft should carry fire blankets thing blanket can get damp in un warm conditions

What chemical is the dry powder using?

Would foam not be an option?

NCO.IDE.A.160 says that aeroplanes, except ELA1 aeroplanes, shall be equipped with at least one hand fire extinguisher. Is your PA28 not an ELA 1 aeroplane?

Visibility is an issue, but I'm sure that fire and smoke will be far more harmful to the skin, the lungs and avionics than powder. When you got a fire in the aircraft it's not about saving the aircraft anymore, it's about saving your life.