Hello! After posting the video, the Datahand's creator, Dale Retter, reached out to us (and to Lalaboard's Ben, it turns out). Here are some points he wanted to share with the world - which he typed on his Datahand, naturally: "Why DataHand didn’t sell enough units to stay in business? The long learning curve meant only a small percentage of existing flat keyboard users were willing to switch to DataHand. Most that did were motivated by the pain and discomfort flat keyboard use was causing them. For first time keyboard users (mostly children) learning DataHand vs. a flat keyboard would be faster. This is because DataHand eliminates “hand float” and provides more immediate and better differentiated tactile feedback. Also, DataHand use does not block the key labels. However, the initial selling price of DataHand prevented it from becoming an option for most first-time keyboard users. The DataHand devices as initially sold were only intended to be a real-world proof of useability. It succeeded in demonstrating it could be learned, allow faster typing and largely eliminating the user discomfort and injury caused by flat keyboard usage. A published peer reviewed study showed user discomfort halved in the first three months and halved again after six months. It was hoped that sufficient funding could be obtained to allow DataHand to be re-engineered for lower cost production, a more attractive appearance, and the inclusion of other intended design features. For example, a better mouse function and software to provide an onscreen display that would make learning and use easier. The funding required for this was not obtained. I believe widespread long-term use of DataHand keyboards would have proved they were faster, less error prone, and would provide less risk of injury and much greater comfort over a lifetime of sustainable use. Why does DataHand closely emulate the flat keyboard arrangement? As you noted it reduces the learning curve by requiring only four keys to be in intuitively non obvious locations. The present QWERTY keyboard was designed to slow down typing. This was in order to prevent mechanical typewriters from having the metal keys from jamming because more than one key was activated at the same time. For example, E-D is the most common letter sequence in the English language. To prevent a typist hitting the D key before the E key got out of the way, the E and D keys were put on the same finger. For DataHand this is an advantage because it turns many common letter sequences into a single ricocheting motion of a single finger. With DataHand you can hit the E key and then the D key with a single finger’s elliptical motion and no risk of a mechanical key jam. Why is the DataHand mouse so bad? They are “finger-mice” not intended to be a primary mouse input. They can sometimes be useful for spreadsheet navigation or some text manipulations. At present it is suggested that DataHand should be accompanied with a conventional mouse device. The primary mouse input was intended to be provided by moving the entire DataHand unit like a conventional mouse. The DataHand was intended to lock in position during normal data entry. However, an increased hand pressure was intended to release it to glide easily like a conventional mouse. Both hands were intended to operate simultaneously in this manner with one hand being a fine control and the other a more rapid mouse. Additionally, a thumb operated joystick mouse was being developed that could be accessed without removing the user’s hands from the DataHand palm rests. What is a realistic learning time? A guitar is generally considered much easier to learn to play at a basic level than a violin. However, a violinist who has spent years or decades becoming a good violinist, cannot pick up a guitar for the first time and expect to play it very well in a “short time”. The flat keyboard is like a violin, DataHand is like a quitar. In our experience beginners with a few 20 min dedicated self-training sessions per day gradually become proficient enough to achieve slow but workable speeds in a few days or weeks. Highly motivated users have mastered it faster. As a general rule most persistent users were able to type slowly within days, and equal their flat keyboard speed within months. After a number of months most users become faster than they were on their flat keyboards. If one is starting from scratch DataHand can be learned much faster than the use of a flat keyboard. This is in part because the most difficult part of learning a flat keyboard is being able to float one’s hands over the keyboard and reliably find the intended key without looking. In contrast with DataHand there is no need to “float your hands”, and each key touches a different finger or finger part providing much clearer tactile feedback than on a flat keyboard where every key feels the same. It is also why once it learned operators make fewer mistakes. A personal anecdote When I was first starting DataHand, my office manager, an older woman with decades of typing experience, typed well over 90 words a minute. She was not a DataHand fan and insisted on using a flat keyboard. Eventually when we began to have investors visiting our office, I insisted she had to be seen using a DataHand. Very reluctantly and for only a few hours a day, or when visitors were expected, did she use DataHand. For weeks she complained that DataHand was slower and made it harder to do her job. Some months later on a Friday afternoon she told me she had to do a lot of typing for her church group over the weekend. She asked if she could take her DataHand home for the weekend because it was faster and didn’t make her hands hurt. Are the 4 modes a disadvantage? No, because with DataHand all the keys can be confidently touch-typed. For example, most typists can’t type the fourth-row numeric keys without looking. With DataHand most users can very quickly learn to touch type the number keys which have with the mode change become home keys. Likewise, when particular function keys are frequently used with DataHand they can be accessed reliably without looking at the keyboard."
honestly, my main concern would be the mouse so if one of these pads could be set as the mouse with the clicker for the thumb I could see this being a really cool alternative to the traditional keyboard mouse
This keyboard seens more aimed to people with some sort of hand problem, it would be easier to type if you have joint pain and other kinda of problems that would make your arms and finger less moveable.
Honestly, I would be hella interested in this if only they had done something sensible with the mouse. Why not make the right hand thumb button one of those balls they used in certain computer mice (where the mouse didn't move, you rolled a ball around) and it can be depressed to act as a button, or you can flip a switch and it acts as the mouse pointer.
Convention due to muscle memory of trained typists in an attempt to make relearning how to type slightly easier. If modern keyboards were setup in a standard way other than QWERTY, I'm fairly certain that would have been the basis for the layout used on the Data Hands keyboard thing even if they could have used any layout they wanted to.
This keyboard with the 10 key clusters might be awesome for a hiragana, since you can put each family in one finger and the last one can be used for the modifiers
@@enderloch4922 Japanese is phonetic, so they just type syllables and mash space until the right thing is selected. Usually word by word. It can be slow or blisteringly fast. I don't have a Japanese IME installed or I would be extra pedantic and give examples.
In that sense without having tried it, I think only dvorak could make such a difference having been naturally implemented from the start. Even if no one had used a keyboard every, a school or workplace would be able to get like 3 of these instead of 50+ cheap kayboards. So this could actually never "had happened" in the way that dirt cheap digital versions of the "typewriter layout" took over the world.
@@Ra-Hul-K Tell me again how the minimum income in US is not peanuts? 7.25/hour gets you nothing but a miserable life on the street, because you cant even afford rent with that.
@@gidedin well.. I was trying to point out that there are countries with minimum wages lower than that of the US.. imagine working for as low as $2/hour with no included healthcare..
yep i remember as early as 8 years old having computer sessions at school, learning to type was very jarring at first. this hand thing had potential if it had caught on i think.
@@kevanb111 It's not about if it's *harder* to learn than a normal keyboard, it's about how *different* it is. If you want to have a kid, and raise them using this keyboard their whole life then be my guest, but that's not the market for this. *Any* design, no matter how non-ergonomic, awkward, or just plain useless it is will be second nature if you've used it long enough. The market is people switching over, and having to relearn completely how to use a keyboard is a big investment.
I actually just watched a video (Ben Eater I think) that talked about how USB keyboards work and a higher quality USB keyboards should be just as fast if not faster than a PS/2 one while cheaper USB keyboards may be quite a bit slower. If memory serves (not sure on the exact numbers) a PS/2 keyboard needs 16ms to send a signal but always sends the signal as soon as a key is pressed. The cheap USB keyboard he tested use USB 2.0 slow mode which only polled every micro second (I think) while the faster USB keyboard use USB 2.0 high speed and polled every millisecond. The actual data transfer while more complex is also much faster due to a higher clock speed (especially in high speed mode). Some comments also said that some keyboards will actually register as 2 keyboards so as to get around limitations in the OS and allow even faster polling rates.
“A more optimised layout that doesn’t even try to be qwerty […] something that puts all the vowels on your strongest fingers.” Shout out to my Dvorak brothers and sisters.
I think letting people customize the layout could help them get used to it faster. Each person has their own system, priorities etc and that could make it easier for an average user to get used to.
I was thinking similar. I am not so sure about using it for typing but it does look like it would make a great 1 hand gaming keypad if you could program what each button did.
I was 'lucky' enough to be able to test a prototype of one of these back in 1994 (I think). The finger keys were designed differently and your fingers slipped into sockets so you could also type a letter by lifting your finger as well as down and sideways. As I say, was a prototype but was fairly interesting.
In '95 I took part in a comparison study for a large potential buyer. After establishing the baseline for 40 typists over 2 weeks, the group was split up: for the next 2 weeks, 20 continued on regular keyboards and 20 switched to the datahand. At the end of the two weeks, the datahand group averaged slightly faster keystrokes than the control group, but a slight increase in typos erased that advantage. The biggest difference was the datahand group, at the end of an 8 hour shift of typing, were far less fatigued than the control group. The datahand is was a *weird* experience, and it *will* take at least a week or two of persistant use to become fluent, but it is a wonderful device. 5 stars!
To clarify, in the sponsor segment they say “here’s something you can buy, our sponsor seasonic” it’s a joke about buying the company seasonic because of the wording in the ad read
Timely company, from their website front page today: A LETTER FROM OUR CEO Dear Seasonic Global Family, In the past few months, most of us have experienced significant changes in our daily lives because of COVID-19.
I disagree. I think their main theory that RSI should be fought by reducing motion is totally incorrect. In reality, motion is actually often good for your health. It’s well understood that main cause of RSI is locking the body into positions that constantly tense delicate muscles and tendons. By creating a system that is extremely sensitive to hand motions you discourage natural motion and encourage damaging tension. A bad idea all around.
Fun fact: this was the controls for the alien ship in the movie ‘Contact’. I bought one of these as a teenager. Honestly the smart way to go with the DataHand was to get the Dvorak layout version like you mentioned. It was a little kit you bought from them and installed inside it, and came with new overlays. That way, you weren’t trying to relearn QWERTY, but instead pick up the already faster Dvorak layout and your brain would associate that with the data hand. It took me maybe an hour to get back to 40 WPM once I received it. The mouse is a lot easier to use when you do it as intended by using both fingers. It’s additive so not only do you get two movement speeds you also could then do diagonals. Doesn’t really make up for a mouse but works well enough for code and documents with short movements. When I bought my Pro II in 2008 they were selling them with a little PS/2 to USB adapter.
Surprised they didn't mention the Charachorder. It uses multiple inputs (like a chord) to generate entire words instead of every letter individually. I think LTT should check it out. Looks like they are far faster than this thing.
My experience with the Charachorder has not been great. The hand position is not very comfortable for long periods, and the chord detection is extremely finicky and unreliable. I also find that the finger movements you need to make to trigger the switches are a lot less natural than the DataHand. The theory behind the Charachorder is really good (hence why I bought one); the execution not quite there yet in my opinion.
It would be cool to see LTT check out something like the Ginny board. It uses a chorded layout called ASETNIOP but doesn't generate whole words like a stenography board.
Love the concept of ergo keyboards, I feel like each model is situational to each individual user, it would be great if they were more modular. Part of the reason I bought a 3d printer so I can start making my own ergo designs lol
As I watched this I was constantly thinking about my AZERON gaming pad, it’s not a typing keyboard by any means, being a controller snob, i haven’t gotten around to mastering it, but I can see it becoming second nature just as a controller is to me
@@GileadGaming honestly what I did was spend a couple days playing and adjusting the keys, I had my most used keys on the bottom as they're the easiest to press then the next most used in the middle and the least on top, this doesn't always work out it just takes practice, believe me when I first got it I was frustrated but eventually learned it. If anything you're biggest problem isn't remembering the keys it's accidentally pressing 2 when you only want to use one either way I would just say get it if you think it's worth it and spend a couple hours a day trying to learn it
Edit: Also an Add: Also found something interesting: Azeron Cyborg is a controller designed for one hand which offers 26 or so keys easily accessible for your fingers. They should make this but only one handed and sell it as "MMORPG Keyboard! Just for you, no longer do you need to reach 6 trough 9 while holding Shift or Control to be able to use all your abilities!" :D
Why wouldn't you just use the left keyboard and assign your abilities to the plethora of buttons already available on that one? No reason to sell one specifically with on ehand
I love LTT ergonomic keyboard reviews, but I was a bit disappointed that James didn't learn this one like he has with the others. I know that's a lot to ask, but I would have loved to hear if this thing actually works as a daily driver keyboard! Maybe an idea for a follow-up video someday?
Did you not see where they used another employee as a standard? Half a day and virtually nothing. How much of a time sink into something that doesn't exist anymore are you looking for?
I would normally agree, but since it's near impossible to find 2nd hand, that sort of result isn't particularly useful for us viewers - wouldn't matter much either way if you can't get one.
@@TylerComptonShow that's why I mentioned it not existing anymore. If it were something still on the market or if there were a very comparable product, then yeah. Spend some time with it. Otherwise not much of a reason
@@matejlieskovsky9625 How many different characters/functions can a key output? There's your layers. In a normal keyboard you usually have two to four - e.g. mine is ABNT2 and I can press AltGr for another layer that outputs / when I press "Q" and ? when I press "W", it's super useful. That's two layer modifiers (Shift/Caps and AltGr) which can be stacked to generate four total layers.
@@WhenDoesTheVideoActuallyStart Ok, so I am at four with shift and caps/altgr (in order to have a modifier within reach for either hand). But I am toying around with the idea of adding some more... Might have to take a look at QMK for that.
I would totally try... the LEFT hand piece for gaming, in a game where can you use a lot of macro, like World of Warcraft and such... but NEVER use it for typing
I’ve been using this data hand since release in a love it. I can type Faster than anyone I know. After it released in 95 I loved it so much I bought three more units because I knew it wasn’t going to last. To this day I still have two brand new units left, now knowing that I am seeing that it is getting revived I know that I won’t ever have to worry about losing this keyboard anymore. Great video and I’m so happy that you guys got to experience this very special keyboard.
The Azeron Keypad is a macro pad, not something that's made to be typed on. Sure you could make a keyboard out of two of those with some scripting in Linux, but I don't think it would be comparable to a dedicated keyboard-thingy.
@@user-ou9nh2ic7o can you use 2 azeron for example typing to replace keyboard fully? I almost never use my mouse anyways, I think I could live with just the thumbstick
I want one for my left hand when playing FPSs. Just map WA to the up/down on the middle finger and SD to the pointer and index finger. I think it would be pretty cool and not a bad learning curve because there are no layers nessesary.
@@vii-reaper8795 I have one for MMOs, but wouldn't recommend it for FPSes that require ad-ing. Like counterstrike, stick movement doesn't lend itself for that at all.
Hmm, I actually didn't know about this rather kludgy take in the chorded keyboard. The version I remember best was the Microwriter PDA and then keyboard from 1983 - a lot of people wanted one ...until they saw the price! Chorded keyboards go back to the 60's of course - there really is nothing new.
If I understand it correctly, this is not chorded as most typing does not involve pressing more than one key. More like having five keys wrapped around each fingertip so they are closer.
I have an Azeron and I think this layout could be even better (if you add an analog pad). I am curious to see if anybody adapts the open source 3d printable version to be a gaming keypad.
Honestly, I could see this being a really good keyboard for Japanese speakers. They have a writing system based on syllables. So for example, あ is just A, ち is Chi, く is Ku, and so on. These syllables are often grouped by what vowel they have, and what consonant they have. With some exceptions, every consonant in the language has five characters, one for each vowel A, E, I, O, U. So similar to old flip phone texting, they could use the middle press to be the A ending to that consonant, and each of the directions to be the other four.
Tried on of these back in the day. Thought about getting it second hand. I figured I could deal with the learning curve. I couldn’t deal with (1) not having anyone else able to use my computer, (2) possible difficulty using another computer once I got used to it.
@@daleatkin8927 Uuh, if that was the case I wouldn't have told you. Maybe when someone informs you about something, you should rather inform youself before obstinately replying "nO yOu cOuLd NoT" about the exact thing they _could _*_and_*_ did_ "back then" %}
@@misatzu back when I’m talking about, USB keyboards (hell even USB) were not regularly/routinely a thing. (I’m sure somewhere you might be able to find someone who would sell you one, but it was pretty rare). PS/2 interface was the defacto standard. I’ve never known anyone to have hooked up 2 PS/2 keyboards to a single PC, and if it was possible, the connectors to do so were not readily available.
I want to learn how to type using one of these just because it looks cool. I am a keyboard enthusiast and type in 4 keyboard layouts already, (qwerty, dvorak, colemak, workman) all at 100wpm
Still waiting for the Matrix-Style direct neuron link like portrayed in the "Shadowrun" universe. Hook up to your device and don't use your fingers AT ALL. Problem solved. No weird muscle, joint or bone pain.
If everyone suddenly forgot how to type and all keyboards and information about keyboards completely disappeared and we had to re-invent keyboards from scratch, we absolutely, definitely would not use QWERTY. In fact, we might invent something like in the video. Having keys spread out like they are on standard keyboards was originally because the keys needed a lot of room to move. With the technology available today, keys barely need to move at all.
Ok, we know its not exactly suitable for general typing, BUT, hear me out, why not put these as a controller device for games (MsFlight sim, etc.) or, big machines... (like powerloader from the hacksmith or a futuristic mecha robot) idk
I don't know...everything I ever get from any government is from the lowest bidder and is obviously such. People think they want US to do social health until they start getting raw cotton balls and duck tape bandaids.
@@rallyfeind "The government doesn't care about the people because it serves our financial aristocracy" "But why do you want the government to care about people? Our government doesn't care about people!" That is... the problem that they've described? What's with yanks and being dense.
@@WhenDoesTheVideoActuallyStart The point was to clarify that we don't want to be just like you only worse at it...because that is also what I was acknowledging about the outcome in the US. It wouldn't be like anyone's good examples of universal healthcare and trust me on this I am in the VA system for veterans. I already live in what the US version is and no it is not okay. Perhaps my joke was too subtle or it was too blunt but eitherway it clearly missed. Oh well I will go back to waiting over a year for a claim to get processed while you come up with a response that I promise will get back before I even have an appointment.
I used this for a few years also due to a horrible case tendinitis in both hands. It did help but ultimately I noticed issues with flexing my fingers side to side. However there was nothing remotely close in the 2000s that reduced the pain like this did. Luckily over years of massage therapy (ART/Graston) and using dragon voice recognition for longer documents. My hands healed. Enough. I have used ergodox since it came out and now use the moonlander. Love them!!
I bet you guys would love the FrogPad: a one-handed keyboard. The learning curve was not quite as steep or long as for the DataHand but there still was one. They also struggled to get market share. Unfortunately they were the victim of fraud and the company died, though the founder still wants the idea to succeed. Yes, I have one, and no I'm not sending it to you. I still use it occasionally.
Immediately thought of that fucking moron from The Verge "A core I-7 hexacore cpu. Yes, we have one." "Yes, I have one, and no I'm not sending it to you" Coulda just said something like "Couldn't bear to part with mine though." Or literally anything else.
Honestly a shame that the "white body, black labels, white text, colored icons" look died out. (Not sure if it has an official name) I love it for some weird reason.
Imagine using these and then falling asleep. When you wake up, your hands are bolted to the keyboard, then forced to combat trolls online. Plot of Keyboard Akimbo.
I mean... If you were taught to use something like this from childhood like you are with keyboards... It could be intuitive and could work. Still weird by the standards of our reality.
I've been using Datahands for 20 years. I have converted mine to USB HID (from PS/2) and a custom controller and firmware with some tweaks to the layout. Yes, that original mouse emulation sucked, I didn't even bother to add the equivalent to my firmware I just use a regular trackball and mouse. The Datahand is still the best though. I am always on the lookout for alternatives but nothing comes close. I also use regular keyboards (laptops etc), switching back and forth is not a problem at all. It's all QWERTY after all and while the finger movements are different there is still a spatial mapping that's natural to my fingers. Back in the day it took me about 2 weeks to get up to speed. The accidental touches were the biggest challenge for me too but that only happens while you are getting used to it. Now it's all finger-memory, just like on a regular keyboard or perhaps even more so. Speed-wise, it's about the same for me but that's not the reason why I use the Datahand. Originally it was ergonomic but now I just like it. I play MOBAs and other games using it too.
Wait ... QWERTY was designed to slow down typing to prevent typewriter arm jams ... and the DataHand thought it'd be a good idea to reproduce the QWERTY layout as best they could? Well, there's your problem! LOL Okay, so not really. It's a horrible idea in general. :-p But it's funny.
I remember seeing this keyboard (or a variant of it) in use by people with degenerative arthritis in their hands - the modules were mounted vertically so that the hands were facing each other, and supposedly the position and minimum amount of travel were a boon for this one guy with the condition. I always wanted one myself.
DataHand failed because it's useless to people with less than 10 digits. Imagine losing so much functionality just cause you broke a finger off in your chainsaw... god forbid someone missing a hand had to use that monstrosity. Cool idea but very poor execution. . I think it would be far better if it were closer to a T9 predictive style device where each finger is assigned 3 letters and software decides what you are going to type depending on the sequence. So there is no up, down, left, or right. Simply press the ABC button, press the ABC button, press the ABC button, and press the JKL button and the computer will type "back."
This thing looks like the ideal keyboard to game on, especially for games like lol where you need a ton of keys to be used with one hand and can remap every function to whatever key you like.
But would it still be better than that moon lander they showed at the end? I have one of those and legitimately would not recommend it to just about anyone. However if you can spend a couple weeks learning the software, the layout, and being split. It’s far and away the most flexible keyboard I have ever used. Each half has like 7 macro buttons that can be programmed to do any sort of crazy nonsense. Along with that you can program each key to do any other thing with single, double, or long presses. If you were really wanting to make an ultimate gamer keyboard with macros galore, why not something much more standard?
@@prettyintense45 because this keyboard layout removes the need to reposition your fingers. That way you can do certain things by moving your finger in one of five directions without needing to reposition them later on. This also allows you can reach more buttons more easily and your fingers do not 'block' each other. This might not be viable for every game but for lol a layout like this can be a huge advantage. I actually want to look into building the Foss keyboard they mentioned since that looks like a cool project. But I would not use this for typing at all.
I've been using Datahand for 20 years and it saved my career. I wish they could have found someone like me to interview instead of dwelling on the learning curve. The benefit for me is not saving motion but saving impact, which on a normal keyboard is always down and eventually nearly destroyed my fingers for typing.
That concept is very good .. Its just, you cant teach old dogs new tricks ~ 😑😑😑
3 года назад
I love when Linus is on vacation.
3 года назад
@12FPS because lately I don't like his videos that much, I can feel that if wasn't written by him and his not interested in the topic often. But this isn't an issue when the writer hosts the video, and you can feel it that he spent the time with the device.
That chair was $1600 back in the day, are you effing kidding me? I'd rather gouge my eyes out with a spoon than pay sixteen HUNDRED dollars for that monstrosity. Even with inflation today i can get a wicked comfy secretlab (with a head-rest!) for like 500 bro what in the world? Were they high on crack? "Uhhh charge em 1600 and we'll weld some sheet metal onto the bottom of this hundred dollar office chair!" Bruh
Just imagine if instead of 4 inputs for each finger... it had 8, so it included diagonals, or they are all joy sticks... like 10 joysticks with 10 push buttons... :O EDIT: An FPS game where 2 fingers control 1 character first person, so you control 5 total first person characters at the same time, and each character has 2 buttons they can use... somebody make this happen!!! EDIT 2; Make it so the inputs for each finger work as a mouse. 10 mice on the screen at 1 time. Just think of the productivity!!!
