The Seibukan way is one of humility, and Zenpo Shimabukuro Sensei is a very humble and very nice man. In 2008 he was promoted to Judan and given a red belt, but as far as I know, he usually only wears it at special events, promotions, seminars, etc. Most of the time he just wears a black belt with the 3 stripes on each end. Wearing one's red belt around all the time is viewed by some to be a rather ostentatious practice, kinda like showing off your rank, same goes for kyoshi or renshi belt.
I am a Kyokushin Karate player, and I get your point. But usually, full contact isnt allowed because the moves can kill. Back in my white belt days, i got a punch that left me breathless for atleast 5 seconds. I don't see the point of going into tournaments and learn self defense to die in the process, the moves are there to show you how to defend yourself against someone out in the real world. That applies to ALL martial arts, and in-fact, it's NOT about STYLE, it's about YOU,GuessWhoSaidThat
Wonderful man. I had the pleasure of not only meeting him at his dojo but also going out to dinner and drinks with him (He sat next to me) and several other 9th and 10th Dan Karateka. (There we perhaps 7 of us) He has a good sense of humor and a realistic outlook on Karate. He speaks very good english also.
All of the main Shorin-ryu styles are original Okinawan ones, and they all have different names. They can all be pronounced shorin-ryu in the modern Japanese of Okinawa, but in the older language each is pronounced differently: kobayashi, shobayashi, kobayashi, matsubayashi, sukunaihashi, etc. Derivative styles are only natural in lineages of a martial art that is passed down throughout history. Shorin-ryu is a derivative of Shuri-te and or Tomari-te, which is a blend of Ti and Kenpo (ChuanFa).
You must also take into consideration the times in which karate was developed. The times the Okinawan ppl lived in were a far cry from the luxuries we are use to today. Their art was made for survival... if they failed this could mean their families or entire village suffered or were killed. They did not play around with their art or make a sport of it. How can you say it is obsolete when it was made for survival in tougher times than we are living in now? Have humans changed that much?
I've looked up Machida. He stated that he trains with Muay Thai boxers to prepare himself for what he will face in the octagon, but he never uses it himself. Bleacher Report even posted a breakdown of Machida's style and how it differs from typical MMA fighters. His sideways stances, kicks, footwork, punch delivery, are all typical of Karate, not squared-up like Thai Boxing, which is why he confuses opponents. He is a BJJ blackbelt, but rarely goes to the ground. And I already know about Judo.
Also, kata, forms or whatever you call it serve a purpose, to build endurance, to perfect movement and flow, to practice, and they can also be used in certain fighting strategies. You may not use the whole form, but parts of what you learn in the form can be used, i've been recently studying using Dual chinese broadswords and in the forms i learned ways to block and strike that i don't often use in techniques and general practice.
There is a LOT of bad shorin-ryu out there. You have to understand that a lot of karate was brought back to the states by marines that had 6 months to a year of training and that's it. Very few of them continued their training and actually learned enough to become very competent. My instructor was one of the few that actually sought out multiple Okinawan masters and continued his education for decades after he left Okinawa. This is the difference. He also had very good well known teachers.
@EdDy A few questions to u. Do u know that Jigoro Kano learnt many dangerous throws from Karate masters like Gichin Funakoshi which cannot be used in a ring. Taekwondo has a lot of karate in it (please read about it's founders). Traditional kyokushin karate techniques have a lot of similarities to seibukan techniques. Shuai Jiao is similar to tegumi which many okinawan karate masters are proficient at. Sanshou is basically kungfu plus boxing,etc, and how can u put down kung fu ?
I think the verse of Sai-San taught by Sense James Coffman is way practical and there is a great physics behind it. I see mistakes in the way the techniques were executed in the Kata. Those mistakes can result in injuries if you execute them against an opponent. Last, but not least, I want to thank you for posting this video.
Go look up history of kickboxing. It was initially called karate boxing with an intention of putting all karates together to spar and fight each other, by Tatsuo Yamada. But as he observed Muay Thai and various arts and when karate fighters sparred, they started fighting like kickboxers, where they freely punch and kick when put to full contact fight where anything goes.
Lyoto Machida is a BJJ black belt who trained BJJ since his childhood, and was a sumo champion, and he trains full contact at BlackHouse gym with Anderson Silva, Minotauro, JDS, etc. Go look up his training. He trains kickboxing and muay thai and majority of his workout is boxing and muay thai. So it beats the purpose of training Shotokan. But even if his success of stand-up fighting style were to be Shotokan, that's barely one example out of millions of shotokan karateka.
Lyoto Machida makes Shotokan work for him in MMA, and Shotokan is a combination of Shorin Ryu and Shorei Ryu, which are Okinawan. And Neil Grove is a black belt in Goju Ryu, which is Okinawan, and he was a champion in the Ultimate Challenge UK. Grove has a record of 7-2 with all wins coming by way of KO. Most Okinawan systems are more combat-oriented than sport. Also, kickboxing champions Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace were Shorin Ryu black belts.
MMA is a philosophy of mixing martial arts that consists of stand-up and ground fighting to become a well rounded fighter. UFC, Strikeforce, PRIDE are MMA in sport form where it proves who's the best bare handed fighter in 1 on 1 scenario. However, MMA used towards street application and survival are combat systems such as Krav Maga, Systema, Marine Corps, military combat systems, etc that uses MMA modern philosophy. They don't dance around or do corny forms like shorin-ryu or wing chun.
An Open Tournament is free-style and was open to any and ALL styles or systems of fighting. Essentially the predecessor to you beloved MMA. I am not judging not dogging on any fighter involved nor the orginization, What I am simply saying is that Mixed Martial Arts has been around for much longer than you realize, as little as 100yrs ago fighters fought to the death, without the glory of cameras, a ring, a referee, or Doctors readily available. Okinawa is the birthplace of MMA, like it or not.
@SeibukanIOSSKA I have been a practitioner of Shorin Ryu since 1977. First Matsumura Seito in Fusei Kise's organization, and now Seidokan in Shian Toma's organization. When is Sensei Shimabukuro coming? Where? How can I get information? I am in my 50s but still extremely active and would love to participate in a Shimabukuru seminar.
I'd highly recommend surfing around the oneminutebunkai channel and Ryan Parker's channel. Just look up "old style" Okinawa Karate and you can get a glimpse of what one can do by practicing katas and their many applications, or even hidden applications of basic techniques. There's a reason that Karate has been such a successful martial art, and it has nothing to do with full contact point sparring. There's a great reason the famous old masters who did kata all the time never lost real fights.;-)
I agree with you. Ryan Parker has many videos available to see what true Old Style Okinawan Karate has to offer. He’s the real deal. Real life application. Kata has so many deep and complex meaning of the movements done. When one first learns the kata they are learning the most obvious application, if that. There is so much more that takes years and experience to understand its deeper application. One Master that everyone who has commented so rudely, without any respect for what they are watching will open every eye is Seiya Oyata. True Okinawan karate dealing with hitting pressure points with such accuracy, it’s a true treasure that there are you tubes of this Great Master giving seminars that go beyond. Truth.
" The ultimate aim of karate lies not in victory or defeat, but in the perfection of the character of the participant." In other words, karateka are looking for a broader application of karate's tenants.
However, Boxing hooks utilize every part of your body by momentum created from footwork, pivot of hips, angle of the punch, which generates more force due to its distance that gives lot of room to create higher acceleration while creating higher mass by utilizing your body to increase mass of your attack efficiently within your attacks. It may be slightly slower than wing chun straight punches or karate punches but it's sure as hell more effective and deadly.
@NewEnglandBudo : NO.he's no young black belt. He's the son of zenpo sensei and he was deliberately making the common mistakes so that sensei could correct them...BTW.....great video oleg...thanks for sharing.:)
Lastly, the kata is abstract. You can't "do" a kata on someone. The kata is like an encyclopedia of fighting. Your brain will pull what it needs when it needs it. You learn not to rely on your own strength or ability but what the kata has taught you. So in real fighting kata is there, it just doesn't look the same as when someone is formally doing it. Kata is the best kept secret that's right in front of everyone's eyes.
I won't say anything about Fusei Kise as I do respect him, and his reputation amid shorin-ryu practicioners in Okinawa speaks for itself. Similarly, the reputations of Chotoku Kyan, as well as Zenryo and Zenpo Shimabukuro speak for themselves. The movements in these katas are not for "fighting", but are designed to be able to almost instantly take the life of an attacker in defense of one's own life. Each kata has numerous applications for every movement, and each is its own style of combat.
Okinawans are hardcore when it comes to resistance training and hard body conditioning. Mas Oyama adopted Okinawan training techniques when creating Kyokushin, which is about 40% Shotokan and 60% Goju Ryu. And like I said, old school kickboxing champions Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace were both Shorin Ryu practitioners. And I didn't bring up Japanese Jujutsu at all, but since you did, Kano's Judo students were defeated by the Fusen Ryu jujutsu school, who specialized in newaza. But each to his own
Do you mean Okinawan Rengokai? I took instruction under one of the board members of the Rengokai and I value him a a friend also. They are all very well respected.
I find Shorin-ryu Karate to be the most practical. It means "little man" form and I think it's great for tight spots and just everyday walking down the street stuff. There are also not that many (if any at all) flamboyant kicks, which is where I think a lot of flaws can be found in other forms.
Combat systems such as Krav Maga, Systema adopt various effective techniques from various arts and styles. Creator of Krav Maga Imi Lichtenfeld was an amateur boxer and wrestler. He tweaked his boxing and wrestling skills towards street usage to defend the Jewish community. As Israel was found, they adopted various techniques like Muay Thai elbow and kneeing techniques, as well as limited BJJ just enough to learn to stand on ur feet and scramble out of the ground if ever taken to it.
Kyokushin is just filtered, synthesized Karate. They extracted useful elements of karate, got rid of majority of Karate, while creating full contact training, something okinawans never had in their history. Kyokushin developed and their training curriculum changed and improved once they sparred and fought with Muay Thai fighters as they learned the importance of what is required to become a skilled fighter.
My wife and I are just beginning the practice of Shorin Ryu. It's emphasis on punching and higher stances, combined with a generous does of Jiujitsu make for a practical self-defense art, as well as providing a good aerobic workout.
F=M*A Means that you can fight someone heavier and bigger than you if you can accelerate more. You simply think martial arts as combat sports. The only thing that make real difference is your commitment to win. If you need to survive you only need not to be touched and hit in the hardest manner to get the time it suffices to go away. It doesn't need to be big or tough: you can equally use a straight punch or a finger in the eye. Nothing you can do in any tournament.
You are correct in what you say about karate. I have been teaching it for many years. However, kata can be used in real situation. It is more difficult to use it in its purist form but the foundations and principles remain the same. Kata = alphabet. Application = the way you arrange the letters to make words. Learn to use kata to help your self defence. Not kata for kata sake. That is art without martial my friend. RESPECT
And same can be said for Shorin-Ryu as well. Shorin-Ryu was a cash factory for Choshin Chibana. Money makes the world turn, buddy. Right now, UFC, MMA, K-1, or any full contact competitions have positioned themselves to attract the best fighters and best coaches around the world. Even guys like Steven Seagal, Aikido 8th degree black belt, is trying to position himself as a trainer although I don't like him.
I have done MMA fsince 1994. I have saw the good and bad points of karate and, boxing , grappling and mma. the oki karate in it true form is a lif taker. tournament stuff yes even mma is booged down with things we may never use.
@EdDy It all depends on art vs application. There are flowery styles of kung fu and combat styles of kung fu. Wing Chun is a combat oriented style of kung fu and its effectiveness has been proven starting from the streets of Hong Kong. I have also seen another guy who is good in streetfighting with Aikido. Muay thai is derived from older thai arts and does that mean that old thai arts are stupid.
Kyokushin heavily developed once they started sparring with Muay Thai fighters. Their training curriculum heavily improved. It doesn't matter what previous styles were. Since Karate has its roots from Chinese martial arts that roots to India, does that mean Indian martial art is deadliest art and effective while Karate is watered down art? Mas Oyama trained Goju Ryu and Shotokan but it wasn't enough, so he trained by himself and created his own style called Kyokushin.
Also, calling Okinawan Karate "fraudulet" is also not true. The Japanese would never have adopted it in the first place if they thought that. Judo founder Jigoro Kano was so impressed by Shotokan founder Gichin Funakoshi's style that he invited him to give demos at the Kodokan. Okinawan Goju Ryu was officially considered Budo by the Japanese in 1933. And U.S. Army Ranger combatatives expert Matt Larsen trained in Shorin Ryu and Shotokan as well as Judo, and incorporated it into his system.
@JdawgMMAblog i dont think he was showing him his errors, i think he was demostrating common errors that practitioners of Seibukan karate make when practising the technics
I never said smaller person cannot take out bigger person. However, if both fighters are equally experienced in fighting, then bigger person will have the advantage by size. And yes, you can accelerate more but unless you're a bullet, it won't give you much advantage. Someone who's heavier also gives them that much protection and bigger reach advantage.
Hidehiko Yoshida - Olympics Judo Gold Medalist Brock Lesnar - NCAA Greco-Roman Wrestling Champion Cro Cop, Alistair Overeem - K-1 Kickboxing Champions Cung Le - Sanshou champion Ray Mercer and James Toney - WBO and IBF champion GSP - Kyokushin karateka 3rd degree black belt Anthony Pettis - TKD 3rd degree black belt Rulon Gardner - Olympics Greco-Roman Wrestling Gold Medalist Ronda Rousey - First female American Judo medalist List goes on Your knowledge fails at every level.
ok, regarding the Machida debate. I'll admit that I was wrong about me saying Machida doesn't use Shotokan and that it's just publicity thing. You debate with strong references, so I'll give you that. But as I've mentioned before, Machida using Shotokan in MMA is just ONE example of millions of Shotokan Karatekas. Where are the rest? Why are all fighters adopting Muay Thai, Boxing, Kickboxing for their stand-up? Because it's the most ideal style. And besides, Machida got owned by Jones n Rua.
Everyone starts somewhere. But they abandon useless techniques, acquire useful techniques, and add new techniques that they feel is much more useful. Karate never had full contact sparring until Mas came up with it. Their kumite became well refined and formed once they started sparring and fighting against Muay Thai fighters.
People with the mindset about martial arts that you have don't understand the true spirit of it. There is a difference between sports martial arts and other types. No one type is better than the other, it is all about how the practitioner is able to use it. I have boxed, I hold a Black Belt in Tang Soo Do, have done a lot of full contact and currently practice Kung Fu, You may think styles LIKE kung fu or shorin ryu are "dancy" but the control takes more practice to master than power.
I have mixed reviews on TKD. But I respect TKD more than Okinawan Karate styles. Why? Because TKD is semi-full contact. It's not a reliable stand-up style but it's a good base art to practice before pursuing and cross-training into kickboxing-type for stand-up. You develop kicking nature, flexibility of kicking, and versatility. Cung Le, Anthony Pettis, Anderson Silva, Cro Cop, Benson Henderson, all have black belts in TKD before cross-training and pursuing to other styles.
This is the only power a boxer knows how to generate is through his hip. A karate man learns to generate many kinds of power- upward power, downward power, forward power, and using the entire body to hit, not just hips or the arms. It is a progressive thing and takes time to develop. Anybody can learn to "use their hip" to hit with. And it doesn't do much good to develop a hard hitting punch if you don't have a fighting strategy to defeat your opponent with. You're too worried about muscles.
Ok, it seems apparent that neither of you have trained in this style, Sukunaihayashi-ryu (Shorin-ryu Seibukan). As for the belt, it means he is a hanshi (grand master) and the the stripes are not degrees. Only masters wear stripes on their belts. One stripe on each end is a shihan (renshi or master - 5th or 6th dan), two stripes on each end is a Kyoshi (senior master - 7th or 8th dan), and three stripes on each end is a Hanshi (grand master 9th or tenth dan). This is typical throughout Okinawa.
Tatsuo Yamada was influenced from watching Boxing and Muay Thai. Muay Thai was formed from Muay Boran fighters fighting each other. Tatsuo Yamada decided to do the same thing and put two Karate fighters to fight against each other. But guess what? When they fought, they realized lot of the stuff they trained was not even being used and they were just boxing and kicking horribly. They realized they wasted their lives practicing nonsense and decided to train fighting techniques directly.
HAHA, Mas Oyama's Karate is called Kyokushin Karate. It's a full contact karate that doesn't dance around like Shorin-ryu. They seek the ultimate truth as what Kyokushin is about, and they have traveled around the world and sparred against top fighters of different countries. Kyokushin is used in MMA and they're the ones who created K-1. But guess what? They fight like every other kickboxers with slight variations to the rules.
You are 100% correct. Most Hanshi 9th and 10 Dan only wear black belts unless there is a function, special occasion or ceremony. Sensei Shimabukuro is indeed a very nice individual well deserving of his stature and responsibility.
shadow boxing could be considered a form, your going through boxing motions, yet fighting no one except the air, the exact complaint you have against kata or forms
@EdDy Maybe u r a good fighter but please don't disrespect these guys, they are real good. How do I know, I've practised this style and checked it in streetfights many years ago (Sorry Sensei), it works and I don't have a black belt. About boxing one shaolin origin exercise to develop speed and muscle power plus the twitch needed for a punch our Sensei taught us is still being used by a western boxing school nearby bcos it's very effective bcos some of our students went there to learn.
Most fighters train in MT because it's the only striking style used in MMA gyms. You won't find a lot of diversity in most MMA gyms these days. But more and more Karateka are entering MMA every year, such as Michael Page and John Makdessi. And Machida did not get "owned" by Jones and Rua. Machida wasn't fighting his best game against Rua, who hasn't won a fight since getting whupped by Jones. And Machida gave Jones a better fight than anyone else in the light heavyweight division.
Before you start disrespecting ppl and trying to impress us all with your vocabulary, do YOUR homework. Chosin Chibana invented a STYLE of shorin-ryu called kobayashi. Shorin-ryu itself started with a man named Bushi Matsumura who is credited with "Shuri-Te" which his students spread to form the different styles of shorin-ryu. Itosu was a student of Matsumura. Money does not make the world turn, buddy. You think the trials and hardships these old warriors went through was for money?
Just as there are different styles with karate, there are also different branches within one style. Perhaps this gentleman's branch of Shorin-Ryu does not have the redbelt. Or, perhaps they give him the option of wearing either belt. Furthermore, can any branch of karate today truly call itself original? There are many kata and practices done in the old beginnings that are no longer done. Even honored styles like Goju and Uechi-Ryu do at least a few things differently than when they began.
Black belt in karate stopped because it does not make sense for real life situation to much work in emptiness in the air like kata..even the bunkai lots of it does not make sense . I love karate but they need more one to one drills more touch we have to adapt our stance to the situation. Not situation to our stance!! Sorry just my honest opinion.
Titles and trophies at a professional level within the art or sport proves their mastery of their discipline. Nobody said that their accomplishment in their discipline proves them as a best fighter. It was to prove that people who mastered their art joined MMA because there's no future and revenue for them unless they come from professional boxing background. It clearly disputes your statement of "jack of all trades, masters of none". which you cannot accept since you're stuck in ur karate world
Yes, many great kickboxers such as Andy Hug(Seidokaikan), GSP(Kyokushin Karate), Lyoto Machida(Shotokan) have backgrounds in Japanese Karate, not Okinawan bullshit. But even those fighters heavily adopt boxing, muay thai, kickboxing, bjj, greco-roman wrestling. Andy Hug had hard time defending his face and punching other guy's face, which is why he had to go through boxing boot camp to kill the habit of not punching others face.
style doesnt matter, its the person. for instance, i could beat you down with just wrestling, or just judo, or boxing, or even taekwondo for that matter. it doesnt really matter what i would use. i would still use feints, bait and trap and use superior footwork, speed and power. i like almost every style of karate, including kyokushin(its prolly my favorite). the fact of the matter is style doesnt matter, it all boils down to how well you can use your technique against an opponent.
Ok the tenth dan red belt does not symbolize 50 years of training. Eizo Shimabukoru achieved tenth dan at the age of 35. In fact on all certificates of the Okinawan karate rendokan got tenth degree you will find his name and stamp. Red belt signifies understanding and is awarded at ninth dan. My instructor returned from Okinawa in April with his ninth dan and a red belt. Besides belts just make identifying a teacher easier. These people would still be masters no matter if they wore a belt
Don't think that you can become like Machida if you train Shotokan. Machida doesn't train shotokan at all. It's more of publicity using his base art. You don't see him punching around makiwara boards. He uses modern fighting techniques, modern equipments, and fights full contact, trains at BlackHouse gym utilizing boxing and muay thai techniques. Anderson Silva, Benson Henderson, trained in TKD as their base but do you think they would be champs if they relied on TKD for stand-up?
MMA uses weight classes because even an "experienced" fighter in a lower weight class would get beat up by a bigger guy. MMA, krav maga, systema, none of those guys do kata, and it's sad because they don't realize what they're missing out on. Sad part is most ppl don't understand the kata and how to apply it properly. If that's the case, then it's a waste of time. But for those who do truly understand it, it is what transforms a MA into an elite fighter.
Oh, and a guy called "thecontemplative2" or something like that. Search for "old style Okinawan karate." Not the best Okinawan karate I've seen but it resembles it somewhat. Not bad karate, not great either but worth watching.
PPL here think MMA is a style but no, MMA is an art of fighting in general. That's why it's called MIXED MARTIAL ARTS. You're using whatever you can to win. There's no best or correct martial art formula to use. It's a place where martial arts can get tested out. Arts that are effective as you described, Kyokushin, Judo, TKD, Sanshou, Shuai Jiao, are all arts that have proven themselves effective in the world of MMA or against arts heavily used in MMA. Wing Chun, Aikido, Okinawan don't work.
At least we have one thing in common. We both know that doing 10-20 punches a second isn't worth jack shit. It was to prove carlo orecchia's comment flawed where he only talks about acceleration. Wing Chun is extremely flawed art where they focus on acceleration and speed of attacks just because of f=ma but as you and i pointed out, 10-20 worthless speedy punches don't mean jack shit.
And of course you're right, you need to supplement striking with grappling to be sucessful in MMA. This is why karateka since time immemorial have cross trained in Judo, from karateka/judoka Benny Urquidez, to Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace, who were also collegiate wrestlers. This is nothing new.
Look, for once I will agree with you. There is a lot of bad traditional arts out there. But just because you haven't seen a good traditional art that works doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Do you honestly believe the masters of old resembled anything like MMA? And I really hope you're not going to argue that these old guys didn't know what they were doing, because it's a historical fact that they were feared and respected by many.
Again, showing your ignorance. Mas Oyama trained in Shotokan Karate (really, Karate?) under Gigo Funakoshi. He then trained in Goju-Ryu (again, Karate?) under Chojun Miyagi. So, he felt there was something of value to Karate as he was Karate-Ka all of his life.
I've proven you wrong at every aspect of your argument. Love how people say "jack of all trades, masters of none". Do you even know why these fighters fight in UFC or MMA? Because they've proven themselves as masters of their art and proven enough that they have mastery of the art or sport they practiced in but there's no money and revenue for them. So they decide to join MMA since it provides revenue but at the same time, learn new art or sport that can supplement their weakness.
Do you know why most fighters use BJJ and Judo over Japanese Jiujitsu? Because Those two styles are synthesized and put into full contact practice. Japanese Jiujitsu said the same shit against Judo to Jigoro Kano. But in 1886, when Tokyo Police Department put two arts to the test to determine which style to adopt, they made top 15 Japanese Jiujitsu fighters fight against Kano's top 15 Judo fighters, Judo crushed Japanese Jiujitsu 12 out of 15 times, 1 tie, and 2 losses.
Here's the problem I have with your comment. Other than the obvious ignorance of the statement, you are assuming a great deal about the "streets". In your scenario, the MMA fighter would have to attack Hanshi unprovoked. And he would have no knowledge of Hanshi's expertise in Karate. So, Hanshi still has the element of surprise. Furthermore, there are no rules so all targets would be available. Finally, Hanshi would most likely maim or kill an attacker as this is what Karate does.
MMA stars don't fight out in the streets because why risk their career fighting bums out in the streets? However, there are PLENTY of amateur and non-professional MMA fighters along with combat sport fighters using their arts out in the streets. Go google up BJJ in Street Fight or bjj.org, Kimbo Slice used Boxing out in the streets, Police officer trained in MMA used MMA to defend himself out in the street against a thug "Crazy street fight Cop vs Thug - Cop wins", list goes on.
Maybe you should tell this to Karate fans out on youtube who constantly mock the fuck out of us for our art being a "sport" and that we would get "destroyed" out in the streets but yet, these karate practitioners have never and never will do it bcz they can't.
You think the sport fighting arts are not legitimate combat art? Boxing dates back to bare knuckle fighting, Wrestling dates back to Spartans where they used pankration in the war to win fights. BJJ and Judo roots back to Jiujitsu where the Samurais have used to win wars. Muay Thai is mixture of Boxing and Muay Boran, an art that dates back and was used in the war against Burma when they were in environment weapons can't be used or war condition didn't allow them to use weapons.
