@31:45 Tank Advance can happen to occupied positions since the target is an unoccupied or non-armor Japanese occupied position hex. Unoccupied "position" only comes into play when figuring out the priorities. Redeploy seems to be similar including the use of "position hex" for the target, but then they muddle it up with their use of "position" in places talking about the target. FWIW, the PAC just uses position hex and is the way I have handled it (albeit with my incorrect reading of "closest" instead of "closer").
@23:40 Seems like a logical assertion. @24:15 Your comment is correct, turn 5+ (or all of the Bloody Nose Ridge scenario) sees you able to defeat both depth and unit in one go with double the strength and all the required "weapons". Before that you can only defeat the Japanese unit without depth marker or eliminate the depth marker and disrupt the unit. @41:45 While it is "wasted" in terms of requirements, it makes sense that sometimes the casualties would include retaining both a machine gun and a Browning Automatic Rifle. Plus you know the 2 step unit will have at least 1 if not both of those with a chance the 1 step unit has one or the other.
"@23:40 Seems like a logical assertion." Ok good stuff. "@24:15 Your comment is correct, turn 5+ (or all of the Bloody Nose Ridge scenario) sees you able to defeat both depth and unit in one go with double the strength and all the required "weapons". Before that you can only defeat the Japanese unit without depth marker or eliminate the depth marker and disrupt the unit." Good stuff "@41:45 While it is "wasted" in terms of requirements, it makes sense that sometimes the casualties would include retaining both a machine gun and a Browning Automatic Rifle. Plus you know the 2 step unit will have at least 1 if not both of those with a chance the 1 step unit has one or the other." Yeah fair point. Cheers.
I still think "unoccupied position hex" means any empty hex in the position. Just my opinion, though. The Japanese would use every opportunity to move forward I think.
You may well be right Michael. I'm starting to more think that this is indeed the intention. Hopefully Martin can get some word from Mr Butterfield to clear it all up for us 🙂Cheers.
@18:00 I do believe I warned you that this game gives you hope only to quickly take it away. Embrace the pain because there is almost always something about a turn that is gonna hurt. And if there's not...that just means a double-helping of pain next turn.
@9:15 The overnight reorganization end of turn step in the v10 rules only has you put half the eliminated elite units back in the reserve. While the part in the US combat has not been changed to reflect this, non-elite units never return so whether you put them in the eliminated units box (that is named Japanese Eliminated Elite Units) or just remove them from play won't matter. @17:00 Are you okay with learning the percentages of the various strength and requirements of the units and depth or should I keep that to myself? @25:20 So the chances of a red M or R coming up are slim. There's a roughly 20% chance that a Red R or Red M show up. Personally, I would take that 1 in 5 chance so I could keep the HQ unit with another infantry unit to maximize the number of actions you can take.
"@9:15 The overnight reorganization end of turn step in the v10 rules only has you put half the eliminated elite units back in the reserve. While the part in the US combat has not been changed to reflect this, non-elite units never return so whether you put them in the eliminated units box (that is named Japanese Eliminated Elite Units) or just remove them from play won't matter." Ok John good stuff. "@17:00 Are you okay with learning the percentages of the various strength and requirements of the units and depth or should I keep that to myself?" Feel free sure. It may help others. I will maybe look at it and then probably forget it all 🙂 "@25:20 So the chances of a red M or R coming up are slim. There's a roughly 20% chance that a Red R or Red M show up. Personally, I would take that 1 in 5 chance so I could keep the HQ unit with another infantry unit to maximize the number of actions you can take." Yeah fair point. It is another one of those risks within the game though I guess 🙂 Thanks for your comments. Cheers.
3:15 Those are the dates for the two days of the campaign game. In BNR, which occurs later, a defeated unit is always removed from the game. 12:00 You're right. The rules say: "US communication may not be traced *into or through* a hex in the field of fire of a Japanese unit even if that hex is occupied by a US unit." (11.31). That means you don't have a hex that is in US communication if you withdraw from a CC in the brown position. Consequently there is no "preferred hex", so it's your choice and you can withdraw to any adjacent hex. 20:45 I believe that clarification is there for two reasons: so that you don't always have to remember exactly which US unit came from which adjacent hex, and to give you the option to move back to adjacent hexes without over stacking.
"3:15 Those are the dates for the two days of the campaign game. In BNR a defeated unit is always removed from the game." Of course. Good stuff. "12:00 You're right. The rules say: "US communication may not be traced into or through a hex in the field of fire of a Japanese unit even if that hex is occupied by a US unit." (11.31). That means you don't have a hex that is in US communication if you withdraw from a CC in the brown position. Consequently there is no "preferred hex", so it's your choice and you can withdraw to any adjacent hex." Oh my. I did read that rule also....honest 🙂A bit strange the same wording isn't used in 11.3, but yeah it is indeed as I thought it would be. Thanks. "20:45 I believe that clarification is there for two reasons: so that you don't have to remember which US unit came from which adjacent hex and to give you the option to move back to adjacent hexes without over stacking." Ok sounds good, and makes sense. Cheers.
Thanks Michael. It sort of feels right, but I'm still not 100% sure as it does put the HQ one step closer to death, and those HQ Infantry units are pretty powerful 🙂 Cheers.
@20:45- The rules are definitely unclear and contradictory about this withdrawal move, but.. I wouldn't withdraw to the hex in between the brown & purple Japanese positions because 1) that hex in not in communication, 2) a "withdrawal" into that hex would seem more like an "advance" (US units haven't even got that far yet) and 3) it's not "closest to the direction they came from" (which is a specification that should have been left entirely out of the rules, it's just confusing, I think). It seems to me that units have to withdraw towards their existing lines.. but I could be wrong. By the way, Grant , I'll just bet that when you were a lad you drove your teachers crazy. : )
See Martins comment below regarding this. "By the way, Grant , I'll just bet that when you were a lad you drove your teachers crazy. : )" Not really tbh. It must have came to me in my older years, but I get what your saying 🙂Cheers.
@12:00 - I think you are correct, Grant. "Pass through" is not the same thing as go "into" the hex. I think the designer's intent is tracing communication when a unit is not adjacent to the beach, meaning when that unit has to trace "through" another hex or more than one hex to get there. I'm pretty sure the Saipan rule book addressed this more clearly.
If id only paid more attention to 11.31 as Martin has highlighted below 🙂 - "US communication may not be traced into or through a hex in the field of fire of a Japanese unit even if that hex is occupied by a US unit." Cheers
Yeah, that's exactly why I start my comments in a notepad++ doc and then can erase them (or edit to say "you get this later") before I post. Then close to the end of the video, I'll post my list of comments. It also helps the number of times when I started some comments, then got distracted and my RU-vid moved on to the next video (since I queue them up in my "Watch Later" playlist) and thus lost my comments.
At 28:30 I got a kick out of you making me a pilot in the RAF. : ) My grandfather was a sailor on the British Sloop HMS Chanticleer in WWII. Mom went through the Blitz in 1940 in Liverpool as an 8 year old. Anyway, thanks for making me a pilot. In my youth I jumped out of airplanes (civilian, not military) but I get seasick very easily.
(ref 17:20) If I remember correctly, Saipan has a rule that when a US unit moves adjacent to a Japanese unit, the Japanese unit's range of fire becomes limited to one hex. In my opinion, the same should be true for a Japanese unit that has an American unit sitting on top of it waiting to conduct CC.
I don't think there is anything to suggest that happens in Peleliu tbh. I do recall Iwo Jima and Saipan messing with things like that more though. Cheers.
24:00 The rule doesn't say that you can't Advance into an occupied Position, only that you should Advance to an unoccupied one if there is one available. But it's still the same dilemma as before: should you go by the current rule or should you go by the possible intent of the rule? In this situation, I would move it.
Yeah it was more that although the rule doesn't say you cant Advance into an occupied Position, it does say you cant Advance into an Armoured occupied position. But like you say this is some of the confusion you have already spoke about 🙂 Interestingly this is the part within the Advance rule that mentions "position hex" - "Advance if no US units are in the tank’s field of fire. Move the tank unit and depth marker (if any) to a position hex that is unoccupied or occupied by a non-armor Japanese unit" I think it should move in this case also. It would mean that its very likely to remain in that hex for most of the game if it isn't allowed this move. Hopefully you can get it all cleared up when Mr Butterfield's available 🙂Thanks for your feedback. Cheers.
I think the intent of the words "unoccupied position hex" is "an EMPTY hex in a Japanese position". It makes sense. Any move that benefits the Japanese or keeps moving them forward is historically accurate and tactically sound, and they were very aggressive fighters. I think the armor advance rule is written the way it is to keep new players from moving the tank to just any open hex.. but I could be wrong. Cheers from Ohio, USA, Grant.
Hi Michael. Its all a bit of a minefield tbh. Having three different references that appear to be sometimes slightly different and sometimes mean the same 🙂 - Position, Position Hex and Position Group. Martin is going to try and get it all settled by asking the main man himself Mr Butterfield. Cheers from Fife, Scotland.
Although it isn't exactly the same as the situation you were asking about (jungle along one side of a hex edge preventing a ranged attack), there is an example on page 16 that shows that brush along one side of a hex edge does not halve the attack value of a ranged attack, so the same principle should apply to jungle not blocking.
Yeah in the absence of specific rules addendum or a BGG answer stating otherwise, I'd take the example as showing that DDAP follows the standard "both sides of a hex spine to affect things" rule.
1:01:00 You put the finger on the problem here. The Redeploy action uses a different wording in that it tells you to move to an unoccupied Position HEX, whereas the Advance action tells you to prefer an unoccupied POSITION. As we know, those are different terms, where a Position HEX is any hex that is part of a Position. A Position Group consists of two Position Hexes but is one Position. Crystal clear? I thought so. However, you've reminded me that it sort of breaks down in 12.4, where it first instructs you to move to an unoccupied Position Hex, (this could be in an occupied Position Group), only to add "If more than one unoccupied POSITION qualifies...". Let's see if mr Butterfield have time to settle this once and for all
Hi Martin. Tbh the Advance action starts of by mentioning "position hex" - "Move the tank unit and depth marker (if any) to a position hex that is unoccupied or occupied by a non-armor Japanese unit" but then drifts to calling it a "position". So there looks to be a mixture of the terms throughout 🙂 Mr Butterfield settling this once and for all would be great! Thanks. While I have your attention have a quick look at Take 2 Part 1 around the 22:30 mark if you get the chance. Cheers.
@@grantos9943 The important difference is that while both actions tells you to move to an unoccupied Position hex, which may or may not be part of an unoccupied position, the Advance action then specifically say that you should prefer an unoccupied position.
Getting right back on the saddle after you've been thrown! I love it! So glad you're jumping right back in. I've struggled mightily with this lovely game, so I'm enjoying watching your struggle. Best of luck with this round!
@37:50 I think with the removal of the whole equidistant part, this is actually much more clear. It is "Closer" not "Closest" and while the potential targets for the movement are "position hexes", the priorities also mention "position" which means all the position group rules for actions apply. Thanks to Martin for setting us straight as usual.
@8:25 I've edited my PDF to strikethrough the equidistant parts of both Assault and Tank Advance. Updating my physical rulebooks will have to wait until I actually play the physical copy again. :) Glad you were able to get to a conclusion. @28:10 The odds of avoiding a hit are better if you go into the hex with 1 intense fire dot and 2 steady fire dots as opposed to the hex with 2 intense fire dots. That's only focused on avoiding hits; there are definitely other considerations that might favor moving into the 2 intense fire dots instead, but I'm hard pressed to find that consideration here. @1:02:00 Correct, that position group is counted as occupied since there is at least one Japanese unit in it.
36:00 You no longer track eliminated non-elite units. In the first edition rules, two such units were placed in the Reserve box during the Overnight turn, but that was later changed. 1:15:15 When you end CC by US Withdrawal, you are not disrupted.
@13:00 Yep, "A unit that drifts is not affected by subsequent landing checks in the box it drifts into" is now the last sentence of 5.1 in the v10 rules. @14:18: "That seemed to go really well." Those are famous last words. The landings aren't quite as brutal in this game as DDaT, but then again they're just giving you hope so you don't just quit right away. :) @15:50: At least RAW, you're only allowed to leave units in the landing boxes if there isn't room. You cannot do so to just avoid a concentrated target. But like you say later, it's landing into intense fire, so having a concentrated target is totally moot. @28:00: A/1/5 decodes to A (aka Able) Company of the 1st Battalion of the 5th Regiment. All the units in the game are from the 1st Marine Division (the regiment's parent). @55:00 This is why you don't say "that seemed to go really well". @1:00:20 RAW, I don't see anything wrong with taking a Preservation Move after an attack. @1:10:00 First off, a position is unoccupied if there is neither a Japanese or US unit in the position's hex. As the last paragraph of 12.0 says: "for purposes of performing actions, a position group is considered unoccupied if none of its hexes are occupied by Japanese units and at least one of its hexes is not occupied by US units." That said, the tank Advance action uses the term "position hex" which says to me that the position group rules don't apply. In this case, my reckoning gets you to the blue position at 0613 as the unoccupied/non-armor Japanese occupied position within 3 hexes of the tank that is closest to a US unit (4 hexes from the 0214). The yellow/orange position at 0716 is 5 away from the nearest unit (the same unit in 0214).
Thanks for all your clarifications John. As to your last point - "@1:10:00 First off, a position is unoccupied if there is neither a Japanese or US unit in the position's hex. As the last paragraph of 12.0 says: "for purposes of performing actions, a position group is considered unoccupied if none of its hexes are occupied by Japanese units and at least one of its hexes is not occupied by US units." That said, the tank Advance action uses the term "position hex" which says to me that the position group rules don't apply. In this case, my reckoning gets you to the blue position at 0613 as the unoccupied/non-armor Japanese occupied position within 3 hexes of the tank that is closest to a US unit (4 hexes from the 0214). The yellow/orange position at 0716 is 5 away from the nearest unit (the same unit in 0214)." have a look at Part 5 from the 26:30 mark for some chat about it. It was easier to talk about it rather than right it down 🙂Cheers.
@@grantos9943 Yeah, for some reason I always interpret "closer to a US unit" as "closest..." and that messes me up. In actual fact, 0716 is probably the right call since it is unoccupied and closest to the tank's original position. Which seems to be what the Part 3 intro is leading to. I'm still not to the actual decision yet, but figured I'd come back and correct myself.
I'm not surprised you have problems with the wording for Japanese Tank Advance. You should ignore the part that says "if two or more eligible position are equidistant" etc. To be eligible, a Position hex should be no more than three hexes away and CLOSER to the nearest US unit. (Not CLOSEST) If more than one Position hex qualify, choose: 1. An unoccupied POSITION 2. A Position hex closest to the current position 3. Highest numbered position The two Position hexes you have marked are both eligible, but because the Orange POSITION is occupied, you move the tank to the Blue Position.
Ah damn it. I was just about to challenge you here 🙂So all my conclusions were correct as you will see in Part 3, apart from the fact that I forgot that the Orange position was considered occupied. And the annoying thing is this is something I have just recently went over 🙂Thanks for clarifying. Cheers.
@@grantos9943 When making an Advance, one preference is to move to an unoccupied position rather than an occupied one. In this example, it's clear that the orange Position is occupied and consequently you should move to the blue position. We know that the use of "Position", Position Hex" and "Position Group" in the Pacific titles have lead to some confusion, and I can send you a PM where I add some additional thoughts about the wording here.
As usual Martin is catching us both out. It does say Position, so while the target move the movement are position hexes, the first priority is an unoccupied Position which does mean the Position Group rules apply.
What does bode well is that you seemed to catch yourself before you made the mistakes. I even posted about the US Unit setup and Turn 1 US AOP issues, but you then fixed it yourself a couple minutes later so I deleted the comment. Ditto with trying to attack with the tank.
Thanks John. Yeah sorry about that I should really add comments in the header when I talk wrongly of something then I figure it out later. Pretty sure there is more of that to come in Part 3 🙂Cheers.
Having the same focus issue with part 2 as well. Do you see out of focus when you watch back? Haven’t had this issue with your other videos but certainly could be me.
Mmmm ok. Like I say I cant see anything wrong at my end. Just about to start recording Part 4, so will ask if anyone else is having any issues. Cheers.
Well done, Grant! I've enjoyed watching your playthrough very much. I think it will be very helpful to anyone who watches. You've definitely mastered this game.
Hi Grant. Just a couple of comments on your next game. Peleliu I’m sure will be fun although very hard to win I understand. I started reading the rules. Many similarities to the other Butterfield amphibious DDay games as you would expect. Learning curve shouldn’t be too steep. I have played the newest version of Combat and it is great. I think you’ll enjoy. Labyrinth base game and Awakening should be shipping around the 16th of September off of P500. Theme here is interesting. I would look into Silent War + IJN. Supposed to be a makeover and upgrade from the original version. Tim is listed as a codesigner. I got my copy a couple of days ago and I’ve started reading the rules. Really enjoying SAB. The added personal touch was really fun. Thanks for that. I’m hoping I make it through Escort Reaction and Vector reveals and then Patrol 8 if you choose to fly pilot C. Cheers Hal
Hi Hal "Peleliu I’m sure will be fun although very hard to win I understand. I started reading the rules. Many similarities to the other Butterfield amphibious DDay games as you would expect. Learning curve shouldn’t be too steep." Yeah I wont be winning, but hopefully having fun 🙂Have played it a couple of times before, and actually had a close result iirc. But was I playing things correctly 🙂 "I have played the newest version of Combat and it is great. I think you’ll enjoy." Yeah did enjoy my initial game of Combat, but think the newer rules will make things better. Looking forward to eventually getting this to the table some day. "Labyrinth base game and Awakening should be shipping around the 16th of September off of P500. Theme here is interesting." Yeah its a good game. I've enjoyed a few playthroughs of this. "I would look into Silent War + IJN. Supposed to be a makeover and upgrade from the original version. Tim is listed as a codesigner. I got my copy a couple of days ago and I’ve started reading the rules." Like I've said I have had this on preorder for a long time. I think the company I purchased it from have had some issues, but I think I need to wait on a reprint now. Would probably have been better going elsewhere, but I've just let it be, though may review this. "Really enjoying SAB. The added personal touch was really fun. Thanks for that. I’m hoping I make it through Escort Reaction and Vector reveals and then Patrol 8 if you choose to fly pilot C." Yeah enjoyed it very much also. All done now and will hopefully start Peleliu tomorrow 🙂 Cheers Grant
4:08 - You should have left Yellow 3 engaged on the tail. No delay if they attacked from the tail in the first round. Probably should have left someone on the tail of the other bomber with two damage as well.
39 minutes. I’m on the floor laughing at your cockpit draw. Of course I’m joking about the second cup. I’ve watched enough of your videos to know. Although I am beginning to wonder……lol😂
Good stuff Grant! I love the casual feel of your videos. It feels like I have a personal tutor to help me learn the system while I play. @36:40 If you/anyone are confused about the search zones for searches along the hex spine orientation, check out page 29 in the rulebook for a diagram that shows areas "B" and "C". Grant just narrowly misses the diagram when looking at page 30 :) The creation of 2 transparent overlays for searching are pretty necessary in this game.
I am going to hand write into my rule book the pluck rule on Fate Box checks where the pluck can be used on BOTH rolls. There is no way when I play this game again that I will find that on the player aid. To me the rule book governs. There are many times that the player aid is incomplete on the rule instructions and therefore you read the complete rule in the rulebook not the other way around.
At 59 minutes. Even before you roll on the Damage check, I would have played it exactly the way you did. There is also a pluck that can be used on the damage roll. I am much more fearful of the Escort reaction than trying to roll a 4 (with pluck). Good luck!!!
