We have seven industrial CNC machines in our facility. Two of them are Haas CNC machines. I have also owned several Chinese and Taiwanese CNC machines. I have also owned industrial CNC machines with three different PC based CNC controls. The Haas machines, Chinese Machine, Taiwanese machines are excellent value for the money. Regardless of what machine you buy you will eventually have a problem with it. With our Haas machines whenever they have had an issue the machine was never down for more than 48 hours. In fact we had a warranty issue on one of them and our local dealer had the machine fixed and up running the day we called them. We have had our Chinese and Taiwanese CNC machines be down for up to 8 weeks before. The fact that most of the parts for the DC1 are in stock in California makes it a clear winner. The Haas CNC control is Linux based and has a huge installation base. I guarantee that the Haas control is far more stable and less buggy than any PC based control. I currently have three PC based controls in my shop. I know this from experience. If you are trying to run a business you will find quickly how important service and parts are. I would recommend that if you can spend the money go with the Haas. Our Haas dealer is about an hour away from us. When you have a machine go down you will quickly realize how valuable a reasonably local service and support network is.
Mini Spits truely are a machinist best friend. They dry the air really well, keep you cool and are very low cost to run. I wish I could put my air compressor in the shop. It’s in a lean to out back and pulls a lot of moisture BUT I don’t hear it run. I just leave the air dryer going when I’m working.
it's just two sheets of plywood hanging, with sound foam on the inside. it's not a tight seal or anything, but it makes a shocking difference on noise.
It runs quite a bit when I'm using the mill, especially when using the air blast on it. The box isn't constructive enough to make a difference, but the whole room does get hot, yes. Sometimes 30 degrees hotter than the shop itself. I have a vent fan that I need to install. It'll vent out that room if it gets too hot.
"im not doing that on my haas". that made me chuckle, sounds like youve got some application issues if you cant do or exceed that on your haas. (no im not a haas shill i actually hate them but my shop runs basically nothing but haas so here we are). looks like 6061 to me. at .080" axial and 100% radial id push around 240 ipm @ 9k on a vf2. or about 180ipm @ 9k on a 2". it really comes down to workholding and insert choice, cutter weight. its not really fair to you rmachine to say i wouldnt do that on this unless youre talking major differences, like comparing an ec400 to a heller etc. i will say the perimeter cut you did is probably better than what alot of ashops are still doing these days. personally on a 3fl 1/2" rougher 1.25 LOC at those kind of parameters we will usually max at 1" axial on a .050 radial but we will typically be pushing around 225ipm @ 11k
I wasn't bagging on Haas. You just are missing context. I have a 2005 Haas office mill. It's got 40K RPM, and an iso20 spindle. It's wonderfully accurate, and great for small tools, but face mills are not it's friend. I get my highest mrr with a 3/16" tool. I am aware that even a TM1 would have a higher mrr than the tormach.
So if it says, "no you can't make it faster on a bridgeport", that sounds like a challenge. So can we get the drawing and the total setup + cycle time so we can crush it on a bridgeport? Asking for a friend...
I am so the wrong person to ask, since I make tiny stuff. I recommend choosing a system first, lang, 5th axis, orange vise, whatever you think you are going to stick with, and go for a vise from them 🤷♂️.
@misupercooner Look at the tegara 4 and 6 from shars. They fit inside better, budget friendly and same design features. I run a 4" in my brother cause it's small enough to fit next to my zero point.
Not sure about that mark on the contour, but I've found that it's much better to make lead in/out on a curved part. I'm amazed how an entry and exit on the flat parts is so visible, but the same thing on a curved surface and it just disappears. And yes, I definitely do shallower, usally 15-20 degrees if I have to contour a straight edge. I'm fine with 30-45 leading in on a curve. Nice video series. My 1500mx was delivered yesterday, so hopefully I'll get it running next week.
Unfortunately this is all of the machining footage I have with the machine, but I do have a video or two about integrating it with automation on the way.
I will not be buying a 1500 MX. The next machine I buy will be five axis. If tormach wanted to let me borrow one for 6 months or a year until I can afford a five-axis, I would most certainly use it a ton
@AudacityMicro when you can take any part given, especially the parts that are deemed "5 axis" and make them on a 3 axis, then look to buy a multi axis machine. Adding more axis dosnt make your a better machinist, and it won't make anything faster with the wack setups like the superglue and tape.
@@AudacityMicro I think a CNC lathe would be a better machine for you, it would allow much broader parts to be machined. A 5 axis is certainly not required yet
I don't see many lathe parts come by, mostly mill work. I turn down a ton of work that would be better suited for a 5 axis. Yes I *could* do it on a three axis, but I'm not going to take a job with 18 different setups.
@@AudacityMicro imo, having a 5 axis these days is basically mandatory because you can do the same part so much faster and with 2 setups instead of maybe up to 6
7:19 Roeders machines are not bolted down because they figured out that then the machine makes more accurate parts. and they have stupid amount of acceleration/deceleration.
I have only ever seen indications that bolting down the machine makes them better. I've never seen a machine get worse. But I also don't have a huge amount of experience in that regard
We make a lot of similar sized parts. I have a Haas DM-2, a Prototrak DPM mill, and a Hardinge not so Super Precision anymore lathe. The only thing the Haas has over the Prototrak is a tool changer and faster spindle. I find the Prototrak to be my go to machine if I need to absolutely hit a dimension the first time, say on a modification to an existing part. Being able to get right up on something and put a microscope or loupe on it. It’s not exactly a Bridgeport, since it has cnc controls, but if I had to lose one machine for the work I do I’d want it to be the Haas.
I've gotta say, I just checked out the price of this and I think you're going down completely the wrong route. 60k for one of these is insane, I just bought a 10 year old Doosan DNM for the same price.
I think you are missing the larger picture. Yes, any used doosan would be a lot higher performance than this machine. But this machine can go in someone's garage, and run single phase, and be delivered on a lift gate. A "$60K" doosan needs $3000 in rigging every time you move it, plus now you are going to need to rent a shop, which will add $1200 per month if you are lucky. It may or may not need a phase converter, which would be another $3000. It'll need some sort of repair being a 10 year old machine, and DN probably won't let you do that on your own, so that's another $5K. Suddenly after a single year, your "$60K" doosan is $100K. Don't get me wrong, the tormach is not a better machine. It's small and underpowered, especially compared to a big cat40 machine. But it's not supposed to compete with one. Comparing them is like telling someone they are an idiot for buying a Toyota Corolla when they could have bought a used John Deere for the same price.
@@AudacityMicro For sure, completely agree. I was kinda using as proof that you could pick up a robodrill or a speedio, which I assume would fit in your shop? Rigging really, genuinely, isn't that bit a deal. Anyone with a hiab is going to be able to move this easily, all you need are some skates. I understand it seems like a bit deal, but anything under 5 tones can be done by one person perfectly safely.
Yeah 100% agree. I'm not at tormach because I'm shopping for a machine. And I will probably buy something used. I really like tormach as a company, and I think they are really helping the industry as a whole by getting people excited about manufacturing. There is no one I would rather hire than some machinist that got started at 16, when they bought a used 440 and stuck it in their parents garage. Give me that over a "classically trained" machinist or engineer any day. Those people just don't exist unless there are cheap machines for them to buy. One day these 1500mxs will be 10 years old, and people will be buying them used for like $25K. I think that's a major win for the US economy.
Nope! I know I haven't posted the videos yet, but I mentioned that I wanted to play with their robot, and learn about automation. Their CEO reached out and told me that he would take a day to teach me if I came up. (It's a small company, and the CEO is very technical) The 1500MX stuff was just a bonus that I figured would get views on RU-vid (gotta pay for the trip somehow 😅). The videos about the robot are still on the way. They are a little bit more disjointed than the machine videos, so they are taking me longer to edit.
The outside was about .002" large, and the pockets were about.002" undersized. But we didn't use any wear comp, so that's about what I would expect. The height was about .010" under sized, but out of laziness we set the WCS based on the raw stock for op2.
@@AudacityMicro it would be great to see the accuracy the 1500 can get, just to make a fair comparison with other machines it goes against, like the X7. Good job on the video AJ
Never played with an X7, but I think the tormach would be just as accurate. It can't remove material as fast, but the kinematic systems are just as good. At some point you hit a limit without adding more technology. Pretty much all of these drill taps are the same, to improve you would need some sort of thermal management/comp, good tool diameter measurement, or overkill castings. You can hit tenths if you take the time to dial in a cut, but you won't do it on the first try, with a non-comped tool. And you'll probably see one or two thou in thermal growth over time. All these machines will be really similar in that regard.
Syil is like 1 ton heavier than the Tormach. So the Tormach is not even in the same universe (than all other compared machines). I hate to say it but weight matters - alot.
Sure, assuming all the machines are equally well designed, the heavier one will cut better. But that doesn't mean we can't compare the machines. The 1500mx will take sales from Syil, and the X5 and X7 will take sales from tormach. They are in similar price ranges, and will be used by similar customers. For someone who is making aluminum keychains or something the weight won't matter. So it's fair to compare them.
Sorry if this is a duplicate. My comments seem to disappear after I post them. Trying again! 34:17 is where you talk about transferring stock from one model/setup to another. Are you referring to stock transfer between setups using STL? If so, there is a Fusion doc titled "Stock Transfer Between Setups Using STL" which also has a video link.
@@AudacityMicro I found the post and the video Harrison was referring to. I will follow up with another reply with a link to the forum post. However, I think you will need to approve and release my comment containing the link. I think that is what happened to my previous comments that disappeared. The name of the Fusion Manufacturing forum post is "Best Practices - Modeling Working Holding with stock and machine simulation?"
You'll have to talk to them about that. They have all the files, I think it's just taking them a bit to get it all put together in their learning system
Yeah, there were a few mistakes in the programming 🤣. And we may have gotten a little lazy in running it. We were tired. Probably shouldn't have held it in hard jaws for op 2 either. But even with all that, it still looked pretty awesome. With some iteration, it could have been flawless
I wouldn't say no to a 1500mx if they offered 🤣 But I had a ton of fun up there. I learned a lot, and got to hang out with a friend (Norman) that I normally only interact with via internet.
@@AudacityMicro well you do have better, higher end machines so that is understandable. But an IOU from tormach is always a good thing. Plus maybe not a mill, but the robot arm looks like a cool entry point, for automation projects. Can’t turn that down if offered. 😂
They already said no to the arm 🤣 I do have at least one, maybe two really in depth videos about the arm coming too. I spent two days up there, and I have a TON of footage to work my way through
Just came back to say that he didn't finish cleaning those paws until @43:33 ... and i know you were talking about some important stuff about the Tormach tour, but man the cat kept distracting me during that time frame🙃
Looks like a cool machine, but they are positioned so awkwardly in terms of pricing. For a little more, you can have a Haas, and for around the same price, a Syil. I'm not a fan of Syil for personal reasons, but I have to admit their machines are nice. With Haas, you have excellent customer support (at least in the UK) - and yes, this can be pricey, but at least you are protected. This machine looks well built, but it does look light-duty compared to the Mini Mill. Especially compared to the new Mini Mill, which has a fully cast frame as opposed to the steel bottom which mine has. I do like the levelling system, and the epoxy granite though - that's excellent! I'm not sure what Tormach's customer service is like now, but historically there have been some not so nice stories. I don't think it's fair to put that on them now if it's improved though!
I think the awkward pricing is really just because they found a good gap in the market. There machines on both sides that can make sense in different applications. The Syil is a better value, at the cost of parts and support. Haas has probably the best support system in the industry, but the machines are a little too industrial for some people. A minimill is ~$15K on paper, which is already 30% more expensive, but when you add rigging, more expensive tool holders, a phase converter, more expensive work holding, etc, it's more like 50% more expensive.
i have a 2004 ec400 and the chip auger run none stop and have never been an issue , the idea to run it every 10 or 15 minutes is so it has time the coolant to drain.
Congratulations on the expansion and growth. Keep aiming up. Onwards and upwards as they say. I am very pleased for you. It’s great to see this. Thank you both for the videos. I wish you both the very best that each day has to offer.
Adding my thoughts as I watch: SVM isn't a touch on the haas. VF vs DNM, the dnm wins all day. SVM vs a new VF, you're not going to see much value Dual Contact: The holders are so much more expensive, it's never worth it. 210psi tsc is a killer. I'd have the haas 1000psi vs doosan all day. OMP400 only gets you about 0.001mm extra accuracy when probing in XYZ. On angled surfaces it makes about 0.015mm diff.
I (AJ) don't have enough experience to talk about the differences on the Doosan/Haas. You do get more accuracy in the real world from the OMP400 vs OMP40. The big difference is that the OMP400 doesn't give you the same trilobular error that the 40 does due to how the switches work. Technically you can calibrate out that error, but you can only get so far from calibration. from my understanding the difference in practice is more like ~.05mm accuracy in some directions.
@@AudacityMicro I use both every day in my DNM(running a star probe and standard, did the same as you and got an ebay special). I mean in linear XYZ(touching off parallel to your directions of travel), you won't see much, if any, improvement. The strain gauge in the X00 series are a lot more touchy. I know they look a lot cooler, and they sound like they're going to be so much more accurate. But go stick a ring gauge down on your OM, pick up the centre by sweeping an indicator, and take 20 single measurements of distance to centreline, plot em out in excel and you'll see the same thing as me. Your backlash will be an order of magnitude higher than the error from a X0 series probe. Probing slanted surfaces is a whole different game though, that's where you see the error.
On a showroom machine 😅 I was only leaking from a screw hole, it would only take them a few minutes to fix. But i would have expected their showroom machine to be a little better sealed
When you say .001" accuracy, what do you mean? Accuracy is determined by a whole lot of factors, and a true accuracy of .001 is super good, beating most VMCs that are 5x the cost. It pretty compact so thermal issues aren't huge. I didn't check for table sag across the X travel, but its built just like an industrial machine, so shouldn't be any worse than a larger equivalent machine. Tooling and fixtures are definitely going to be the biggest source of error using the machine, which is true with all machines. I also saw it make 60 softjaws in a row, fed by a robot, and I couldn't measure any variation between them with calipers (didn't bring my mic, sorry)
@@AudacityMicro Sorry, what I mean was repeatability precision. Syil for example claims around .0001" while when I spoke to one of Tormach's representatives, he said the 1500 was about .0008", which is pretty close to a thousandths. To be honest, I am new to CNC milling, and I am yet to buy one, but I spoke to someone who told me that 0.001" was too high for some applications, like making parts that needed to press fit, for example. Was he wrong? I like the 1500 otherwise.
I would say the repeatability is tighter than .0008". That sounds more like the accuracy across the whole machine. Most machines tend to be really good at repeatability, even the low end tormachs are definitely not bad in that aspect. Syils are good machines, very arguably a better value if you can deal with the three-phase power thing, and a somewhat cryptic controller. But I would say the accuracy between the 1500 MX and the equivalent style machines is comparable. Other than the aforementioned conveniences, the biggest difference is that the syil will have more horsepower, which will let you remove material faster. That's an inherent downside of tormach single phase thing. Most shops do not ever deal with things tighter than plus or minus .003" or so. Even in my kind of work plus or minus .001 isn't super common. The exception for that tends to be tight tolerance holes, which generally means that you need a reamer or boring head
@@AudacityMicro Thank you so much for taking the time and explaining this to me. I am thinking about getting a machine by the end of the year, and I'm between this one and the X7. I did see that the 1500 goes only up to 6hp while the x7 goes to 16hp. I wasn't sure how much this would affect me if I don't have to reduce big chunks of steel to chips very fast, meaning, if I don't need to work with big, heavy blocks of stock which require a lot of removal, but as I said, I have no experience. I do like that the 1500 has a bigger range of motion, and more tool capacity, and thought these things would be more useful than more HP, but I could be wrong. Another thing which concerns me was the lighter weight of the 1500. I wonder if it would make it noticeable less rigid.
The syil is more machine for the money. The 1500 is perfect for people who don't have a lot of space, or access to three phase power. I'm pretty sure you can option up a Syil with a bigger tool changer too. With the tormach you also get really good US based support, and spare parts. With the Syil support is mostly limited to a community Facebook group, and spare parts may be shipping all the way from China. I suppose the 1500 probably is a little less rigid than an X7, but you won't notice, because it doesn't have the power to take advantage of the extra rigidity. If you can fit a X7, and have three phase/can install a phase converter, go with the X7. It'll have a longer learning curve, but it's a more capable machine. The 1500 is easier to use and far more convenient, but less powerful.
I do not see any machine related defects in the part, only programming ones. We pulled a last minute Mulligan and designed and programmed this part about a half an hour before we ran it. The cam is far from optimized
I'm gonna bet (based on my experience with a Haas SMM2) that that's 100% the machine. You can minimize them, but if it has a problem on such a simple path, it's gonna have a lot of problems when finishing and aiming for really good finishes.
I'm not sure I'm seeing the same thing you are. The only thing I'm seeing is feed forward lines on the floor, all machines do that. There are also some "dwell circles" on the toolpath on the bottom. That is 100% just a bad toolpath, plus needing some smoothing tweaks.
Everything was encouraging except that coolant leak dripping at 1:28. I have ops that will run for 3-4 hours at a time and that would be a massive problem. Hopefully mine has no leaks. That would be a problem. I'll know in a few days.
Yeah, that was a little embarrassing for them on a showroom machine 😂. But if I remember right, it was just leaking through a screw hole, which could be fixed pretty easily with some sikaflex.
@@AudacityMicro Good to know. I try to keep the spindle running 6-9 hours a day, so a drip every few seconds means thousands of drips in a day. Fingers crossed.
@@AudacityMicro Did you do any tool diameter measuring with the ETS or just length? Cutter radius compensation is pretty critical for me as well. Right now I manually adjust the tool table as the tools wear. To get press fits on magnets in stainless, it needs a lot of babysitting. I might get 100-150 holes and need to change the cutter comp by -.005mm to maintain the same press fit. Once I get to -.020 and the holes get too tight I just start over with a new end mill. Would be super nice to not have to babysit that.
We did not, I don't think they have the macros for it yet. In my experience on my haas it isn't super reliable. Anyway. I have better luck using the spindle probe to measure the bore and update wear offsets that way. At very least you could use the probe to measure your bore to check if it is in spec or not. That way you are at least not making bad parts, even if you still have to manually update the wear. Offsets
@@AudacityMicro well, I’ll be learning new tricks. I played with the ets on a haas and what I saw was great but it was a new model. Easily saw a few microns difference in wear.
That facing cut was 100% spindle load? Or over 100%? The 1500 looks like a cool machine, but it's still pretty slow and under powered compared to a Syil. I guess it was a sacrifice they made going with single phase power?
That's the big trade. You're going to get close to the capability of a HAAS Mini Mill, you are going to get the HSM and other options without paying extra, but you are not going to be able to have a full 7 HP. The flip side is you can run it on a typical 240v circuit in a garage or small shop without expensive rewiring or phase converters. This machine is right at the limit for what can be done on basic power. 5hp total is the absolute limit on a 12ga wire 240v single phase circuit. But that's still really not bad for a circuit you may already have or can wire yourself on a weekend.
