There is an ongoing culture war and we are devoted to spreading the message of how the classical Western culture is being suppressed and the positive changes that are currently taking place.
All you need to know is it’s just a made-up crap load of BS created by Wim just to gain fame since he didn’t have skills to survive in the performing arts world. He’s simply a cult leader, flat earth believer, Jim Jones of classical music.
@@JérémyPresle there’s no argument since it’s all made up by Wim. You can hear the historical recording made by then super old Francis Plante who studied with Liszt and had heard Chopin live. He didn’t play anything remotely close to the bullshit whole beat. He was almost 90 by the time of the recording and still didn’t play anything that would support BS Wim. So would you believe somebody who was really close to the great Liszt and Chopin or just a cult leader like Wim?
While compelling, this argument is wrong. There were many philosophers and artists for a long time and this gives us the way to defend any point of view by selectively referencing them. Unless a huge mass of painters state that they act as prescribed by Kant and Hagel, we cannot attribute such a great influence of those philosophies on the state of things. In other words, while correlating to some degree with the point of view, their influence cannot be attributed to causation of this state.
Injuries are not an argument for slowing music as if somehow humans in the past played music in a way that is technically easy. Humans are humans, they arent going to do things that are necessarily healthy.
I wrote a comment to a video by the man beginning at 4:36. Being a listener and not a musician, I stated at the outset that I was not taking sides in the debate, but received an aggressive, almost illiterate tirade about how I was a fool who knows nothing about music. Very distasteful. I still do not understand the vitriol which WW's proposal elicits. He may be correct and he may not. The responses I read regarding his work are hysterical, aggressive, intolerant, closed minded and who knows it could be the authors of these tirades who are actually wrong....The incivility of this criticizing crowd really leans me to WW....
@currawong2011. Wim Winters tells you that 10+10=19. You know it’s wrong, but if you are just being a listener not a musician, how can I explain to you why Wim Winters not always is to be trusted? My professional background? Music school, some music conservatory, as well mastering pipe organ and piano. Here you can get to know me and my argument a little better: «Wim Winters don’t get my credibility 1/2-2/2». Carl Czerny 1791-1857 was criticized by many for his interest in the virtuoso. A number of his metronome marks are described as impossible. In the video «Tempo Ordinario in Bach’s music - an Introduction» Wim Winters plays the preludium BWV 859. He chooses 56 heartbeats per minute in common time. Then he says that Czerny’s version, 10:02, «allegro moderato» gets 100 heartbeats per minute. But because Wim Winters argues for the double beat theory, Wim Winters has to halve Czerny’s pace, i.e. to 50 heartbeats per minute. But then something strange happens! Wim, in common time, without tempo remark, plays faster than Czerny’s «allegro moderato». That is not correct because common time is slower than allegro moderato, something Wim Winters itself confirms many times in his videos. Wim Winters has fine versions of Bach’s two part incentions BWV 772-786. He follows the old information of tempo ordinario, some pieces get a fresh common time, No 5 and No 8. However, in several of his performances of Beethoven’s allegro movements, common time in WW inventions has more heartbeats per minutes than Beethoven’s allegro movements. Wim Winters knows very well that common time is slower than allegro, which means that the double beat theory here is also wrong in music history. Currywong, I can go on with a number of similar examples. Instead, I would rather present a good example of how the double beat theory loses to logic, and then we get help from the children! I have gone trough several hundred videos, which show children playing demanding pieces faster and much faster than double beat tempo. Kids, 7-12 years old play Chopin’s etudes faster than Wim Winters. Chopin, the composer, was around 20 years old when he composed Op 10. He thus had about 10 more years to reach a virtuoso level, and Wim Winters believes that Chopin played slower than the children - totally illogical! In Chopin’s days, there were fierce competition between the pianists, as old sources tell us about. Poor Wolfgang Weller, one of Wim Winters’ supporters, he plays Chopin’s Op 25 No 2, and believes he performs the piece at a historical tempo, he spend 2:03 minutes. What about Gabrielle Shin? She finishes after 1:55. Gabrielle is 5 years old! I can cite many many examples of the same thing - children under the age of 10, play demanding etudes and other pieces faster than adult men! That is completely unlikely, in music history. Currywong, is this understandsble to you? Please tell!
XIX century's tempi are such a mess that at the end of the day musicians finally did whatever made sense for them. After all to be 'authentic' doesn't mean much if literally nobody can play the tempo because it's too fast, or can genuinely relate to it because it's too slow (or too fast). But to give the double beat a try is fair enough.
@martingauthier7377, quote: «But to give the double beat a try is fair enough». IMO - the theory is only interesting to those without knowledge. Those who us who know something understand that the theory as presented by Wim Winters has never been able to work over time. Hm…….but what about those who have knowledge, but still support the theory? My guess: They are not interested in placing the music in a historical context, they are only concerned with music being played at moderate tempos. Wim Winters proves with their own play that the theory is not correct. Moreover - the theory loses to logic.
Ik heb altijd al een hekel gehad aan de metronoom. Nu nog meer! Het is de meest onnatuurlijke manier om te spelen. Bovendien gaat het om de verhoudingen tussen de verschillende tempi en hangt het van de muzikaliteit en de (her)belevenis af van degene die de compositie uitvoert.
Why are tempi often too fast? I think its a simple psychoacoustic effect much like pitch perception. Often times our internal ears are faster just like our internal sense of pitch is often a little bit flatter.
I play Chopin's Op 10 #4. My final speed is minim 80, not quite Chopin's minim 88, but if I play at crotchet 88, as Wim advocates, it so slow that I use it as an easy practice tempo.
I haven't seen this before but I have studied what Wim Winters says, looking at the sources he uses and you and your commentators not only misrepresent what he has said but also the "single beat" practice which seldom to never plays pieces at the tempo indicated by the composers and early editors, they seldom could possibly achieve those speeds EXCEPT IN "SLOW" MOVEMENTS WHICH ARE SOMETIMES PLAYED AT ABOUT SPEED INDICATED IF READ IN "WHOLE BEAT." They do that without bothering with the metronome speed. If those are the right speeds for the slow movements, the speeds indicated for "fast" movements must be read the same way. I am most impressed by how his critics feel it necessary to misrepresent what he has said and what the sources he uses to support his point of view say. If they could support their reading of it they wouldn't have to misrepresent what he says.
His sources are pretty much exclusively "some pieces are too hard if you play them at the noted tempo". Many of Liszt's students made recordings. All of them played single beat. As did Brahms.
Forgive my ignorance, but couldn't this all be settled by finding documents regarding the duration of performances of symphonies etc. and contrasting them with the modern durations? Wouldn't there be documentation stating that Beethoven's 9th is either 70 minutes long or 140 minutes long?There must be documentation like that.
Yes. Just look up "Historical Evidence of Tempi in the 18th and 19th Centuries" and you'll find a whole research paper on the topic with examples. (Spoiler alert: they didn't play in whole beat)
What i love about this whole debate:. For decades, there was no debate. Every thing must be played as fast as possiblem. Wim cimes in and says, no, thats not correct. He is then attacked as a heretic! How dare he! Everyone knows that chopin and Beethoven should be played as fast as possible! Its the only way you can prove you are a virtuoso! Afterall, countless pianists have have labored their entire live playing the chopin etudes as fast as possible -- and doing so proves how great they are! So wim saying that playing to the revolutionary etude atca breaknevk speed threatens the entire career of any orofrssional pianist. That is thd rrason there is such virulent reaction against tiis theory. It renders all their work as pointless.
Do you have any proof of your ' as fast as possible' theory? I have never heard many of Beethoven piano works played as fast as possible. I don't know how Wim would figure out how to play a Chopin waltz as many have no metronome marking. He needs guidance and none is given.
Oh, please. What Wim is really saying is, hey I don’t have to achieve a professional standard of playing, if I can convince everyone that an amateur level is authentic.
rand503. In a couple of weeks, I hope to present two videos, where I want to reach people like you - debaters with little knowledge. It is important to reach out to you so that you do not continue to spread ntrue and manipulative information to more and more people. It happens that Wim Winters both manipulate and censors to strengthen credibility. Because you do not have enough knowledge to expose the manipulations, it is important that you receive more balanced nformation. «Every thing must be played as fast as possible». «As fast as possble» only applies where the composers write «prestissimo». Only then should it be played as quickly as possible. «Prestissimo» is not often seen compared to the many other terms for pace, therefore it is not a big problem. As you should know, Wim Winters has an agenda, he believes in a theory that tells about a different understanding of the metronome numbers. Therefore, it is important for him to tell you that music was played mich slower + - 200 years ago. But is it true? Here are a few lines from the book «Beethoven» written by Maynard Solomon. We read: «Beethoven was concerned to maintain his preeminent position and regarded any accomplished pianist as a potential rival. In mid-1794 he wrote to Eleonore von Breuning of his «desire to embarrass» and « revenge myself on» the Viennese pianists, some of whom are my sworn enemies». The book also tells us that Beethoven was invited several times to private homes to compete against other pianists. Here we get to know the mentality of over 200 years ago. Mentality? Yes - he human urge to compete! For almost 3000 years, people have competed in the Olympic Games. But the pianists back then did not compete in wrestling or discus, no, they competed on the piano. The keys were their sports arena! For the pianists, it was important to compose so technically demanding that it was considered almost impossible to play. And that can well be the explanation for the «impossible» metronome numbers. But what was the point? Again - the pianists competed! It was about impressing other pianists, music critics and a large audience. «IMO, there is no music in the cirtuoso pieces, it’s just a ridiculous cascade of fast runs!» Anyway, it was part of the music culture back then, whether we like it or not. But not everything was to be played at fast paces. Don’t you know that the composers piano sonatas also have slow movements or slow sections? It is here that the composers give the pianists ample opportunity to express emptions and moods - it is here that the pianists could really shine with their improvised musical expressions. Rand503, if you are interested, I can give you several examples that show that Wim Winters is not qualified to tell anyone what is possible to play - for others. You also get examples of his misinformation and manipulations.
@rand503. «Thank you» I can’t take it anymore! I am sick and tired of domments from people who don’t even know 1% about what is being discussed. Dear rand, you know that 10+10=20. But then you see RU-vids videos with a mathematician who succeeds in convincing many thousands of people that 10+10=19. And what happens? Well, several of us try to tell you many thousands that that mathematician is manipulating you. And what happens next? Yes, you criticize us who try to tell you that 10+10=20 is still true. Then you understand why we are sick and tired. But you are very lucky, because I am in good mode today, so I am taking my time to give you some basic knowledge. Therefore, find yourself something snacks, sit in the comfy chair, and we’ll stared! Quote: «Every thing must be played as fast as possible». No, we are not saying that. But Wim Winters convinces people that the composer’s MM numbers should be interpreted so that the tempo is half as fast as we think they should be today. In doing so, he succeeds in falsifying our music history for all of you who are being manipulated, and that is what we are criticizing. Wim Winters is right about this: Many performances do not reach the composer’s tempo in single beat. The explanation will come in my next comment if you want to know more. Quote: «Everyone knows that Chopin and Beethoven should be played as fast as possible!» No, that is not correct. (don’t forget to enjoy your snacks) We say that the composer’s MM numbers should be respected, it is not the same as shouting for a prestissimo in all pieces! Quote: «Its the only way you can prove you are a virtuoso!» There is nothing wrong with the pianists pursuit of the virtuosic, because it was exactly the same thing the pianists did for + - 200 years ago too! Now we open a book about Beethoven, written by Maynard Solomon, and ther we read: «Beethoven was concerned to maintain his preeminent position and regarded any accomplished pianist as a potential rival. In mid-1794 he wrote to Eleonore von Breuning of his «desire to embarrass» and «revenge myself» on the Viennese pianists, some of whom are my sworn enemies». We also read that Beethoven was invited several times to private homes to compete against other pianists. This is what Wim Winters doesn’t tell you - there was a strong competition among the pianists 200 years ago also. This explains many of the «impossible» fast tempi that we find in the piano literature of the days of Czerny, Beethoven, Liszt, Chopin, Alkan, Henselt, Kalkbrenner, Hummel and others. I will continue if you ask for it.
I actually found that “whole beat” slower version of that passage from the 9th to be appropriately stately and profound. I don’t have any bones to pick in this controversy, but I think we do need to determine how to interpret metronome markings on older publications of music where input from the composer is hard to come by.
In my opinion, transmission is the biggest blow to WW's theories. The first recording of a Beethoven symphony dates back to 1913, when the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Arthur Nikisch, recorded Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 in C minor, Op. 67, for the German Grammophon label (its on RU-vid). We can hear the so-called "modern tempo". The conductor, Arthur Nikisch made his conducting debut in 1878. The pianist, composer, conductor and music director Ferdinand Hiller (1811-1885) heard Beethoven's pieces during the composer's lifetime and throughout the 19th century organised concerts with Beethoven's symphonies on the program. So there is a clear overlap here - just TWO generations of musicians between Beethoven's lifetime and the 1913 recording. Many people alive at the time of Beethoven lived on through the mid-19th century and even longer (like Hiller); attending regular concerts for decades. Even when Beethoven went through a less popular phase, his music never disappeared from concert halls. All these musicians and concert-goers could hardly fail to notice such a huge change in tempo IF such a thing occurred.
Quite right. There is an even earlier recording of a complete Beethoven symphony, again no.5, in 1911 from the Odeon Talking Machine Company, Berlin. You can also find it on YT (sometimes with the date 1910). There is a very recent article in the Journal of the American Musicological Society (no. 76, Spring 2023), James Hepokoski, "“Listen and Be Amazed!”: Odeon, Künneke, and the First Recordings of Complete Symphonies", available FREE online (thank you, JAMS) that will tell you all about it. The tempi are of the same order as Nikisch's. And then there is the wonderful recording of Richard Strauss, Berlin 1928. Links back to Beethoven: Strauss as a young man was Assistant to Hans von Bülow, who was a pupil (also later son-in-law) of Franz Liszt, who in 1823 at the age of 11 met Beethoven.
There is no conspiracy, all of this information has long been widely available to everyone and anyone can access it. So many will disagree with WW but you're still left with the same problem, if the metronome was designed to put an end to any doubts about what tempo a composer e.g. Beethoven wanted his music to be played at, why is there so much controversy over this subject. Just a thought on tempo - from where I live in Bristol it takes about 1h 30min/2hrs to reach London. In Mozart and Beethovens' day that journey would have taken several days by carriage, with several changes of horses. My point is, their concept of tempo was very different from ours, their pace of life much slower. Many listeners today who are not supporters of WW double beat will nontheless agree that modern day tempi are getting faster and faster. The drive to sell classical music to a wider and younger audience is largely responsible for this trend. As for some of the outfits modern performers wear, especial the ladies, well.................no names mentioned. Some of those early Sonatas by Beethoven and Mozart were composed for students to play. Are we to believe they were all able to play the Piano up to the standard of a Pollini or a Yuja Wang? I don't think so!! I support the work WW is doing because he backs up what he says with sound and extensive research and by'n by it is helping to make pieces available to performers who will never measure up to the very best classical musicians. Classical music is becoming strangely elitist when you consider that the desire by music outlets and the music schools/acadamies has been to broaden its appeal.
robintranter, quote: «…if the metronome was designed to put an end to any doubts about what tempo a composer e.g. Beethoven wanted his music to be played at, why is there so much controversy over this subject». Sorry, but the answer will annoy you. If everyone who wanted to write comments here had to document an education in classical music, WW would hardly gain followers. But because anyone can comment, even those who don’t know, he gets thousands of followers, and that’s why we have this controversy, this endless discussion. Those who don’t have knowledge don’t listen to the musicologists because Wim Winters is very good at manipulation. Sometimes he also censors comments. Whoever is right in their argument does not need to manipulate or censor. So why does Wim Winters have to manipulate and censor? Wim Winters, quote: «The best argument FOR the WBMP are the thousands of metronome marks that nobody every will be able to play and we simply ignore». Wim is not qualified to tell you such a thing, and he confirms it himself. Here are some examples: AuthenticSound (AS) «A Unique Description of Franz Liszt Practicing…» A reply: «Lang Lang…what a joke». WW: «Hmm…wish I had his technique though…» So Lang Lang has a better technique than Wim. But around the world we find many virtuosos, who better than WW know what’s impossible to play. Therefore, his main argument is of no value. I will continue in a couple of days.
Putting aside journey lengths, then and now, and the strange idea that the pace of life was slower (what does that even mean - people walked half as fast, their heart-beat was around 40?), those sonatas of Beethoven and Mozart intended for early-stage students are immeasurably easier than those intended for performance by themselves or by other experienced and accomplished musicians. They are still played successfully by young students today, at the same speeds (though probably not as well) as a Pollini or a Yang. Of course not all pupils would have gone on to play up to the level of the top virtuosi, then or now. But some of them made it. Carl Czerny, for instance, and Ferdinand Ries, of Beethoven's students. Wim's research is severely limited by his WB theory, which prevents him from exploring anything that contradicts it, and is by no means sound. Certainly he is enabling people to attempt works far beyond their capabilities with the comforting notion that snail-speeds are 'authentic'. I much preferred it when he was introducing people to the works, mostly quite manageable by amateur pianists and intended for them, of composers like J.C. Bach and Muzio Clementi, or showing how Mozart and Haydn and even Beethoven sounded on the clavichord.
robintranter, part II. AS, Beethoven sonata opus 14/1. Reply: «Oof, this first movements really falls apart completely. Another great example of how double beat doesn’t work!» WW: «yeah, how about the fact that in SBT it isn’t even playable…» After a little hour on YT I can present this list of pianists who play the first movement faster than SBT, which Wim Winters says is unplayable. All the pianists play the repetition. WW, double beat tempo: 13:43 SBT: 6:51 M. Korstick 5:45 A. Fischer 5:50 I. Levit 6:05 R. Buchbinder 6:11 Jumppanen 6:15 Sokolov 6:18 Yokoyama 6:31 L. Schwizgebel 6:32 Barenboim 6:45 Robintranter, quote: «…My point is, their concept of tempo was very different from ours, their pace or life muh lower….» That’s right, we live more hectic in our time, but it doesn’t affect the pace of music, and I explain it like this: Nowadays, most people listen to pop and rock, not classical. Because we live in a time of great stress, most pop and rock-music should be played in fast tempi, , but that is not the case. Most of pop and rock is performed in fairly moderate tempi. We know that pianists played very quickly + - 200 years ago, it is explained by man’s urge to compete. In the book «Beethoven» written by Maynard Solomon, we read: «Beethoven was concerned to maintain his preeminent position and regarded any accomplished pianist as a potential rival. In mid-1794 he wrote to Eleonore von Breuning of his «desire to embarrass» and «revenge myself on» the Viennese pianists, some of whom are my sworn enemies». We also read that Beethoven was invited several times to private homes to compete against other pianists. The extremely fast MM numbers confirm a music scene with competition. It was about doing to impress pther pianists, music journalists and audiences. Robin Tranter, if you want to participate in the debate and be respected, you need to turn your back on WW. I can go on and on with a number of examples, but I have some other things to do. But wait! . ..to my delight, I found this in WW’s video: My «Immoral Tempo Allegations…» 2:30, «….and I take that etude in such a different - even claiming that it’s a really hitorical tempo. I should change those titles…» He’s not saying he’s abondoned the theory, no, he’s not saying that. But he acknowledges that he perhaps went too far in claiming that his performances of Chopin’s etudes were historically correct. This is gratifying by Wim Winters! There he took a step in the right direction. I hope that he takes even more steps in the right direction, lest thusands of ignorant people be fooled into believing in a theory that has never been able to work the way WW presents it. And once again, I mention the kids here at YT. A number of videos show children, 7-12 years old playing Chopin’s etudes much faster than double beat tempo. We know that Chopin was around 20-22 years old when he composed the etudes. He had 10 more years to reach a virtuoso level, and Wim said Chopin played much slower than the kids! Totally illogical! Remember - it was a competition between the pianists, several old sources tell about it. And then you should be smarter than Wim and realize this: Chopin’s etudes in double beat tempo wouldn’t impress anybody!
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 Great comment (don't worry about the odd typo). I listened to that truly awful performance of Op.14.1, and saw the rest of Wim Winter's snarky reply "yeah, how about the fact that in SBT it isn't even playable. All the rest is just habit and opinion. As Dr Marten Noorduin once said: in tempo research, leave your taste at the front door please. And besides that: would you believe I released a recording if I wasn't pleased with the result. Yes, the universe of taste and insight not only turns around [the OP] ..." He was pleased with the result! He has certainly left his taste at the front door, supposing he had any to leave. He should have been rather more critical.
Love your videos, but I’ve given up after the first few seconds; you do realise that the US is the only part of the English-speaking world using the German mathematical naming system of the notes - whole note, half note, quarter note, et cetera so your talk becomes almost unintelligible to everyone else. Most English speakers use semibreve, minim, crotchet and the rest which is also easier for Italian, French, and Spanish listeners as well who similarly do not use the mathematical naming system; the American-English names are virtually unknown and never used outside the US. An additional problem arises as the American-English ‘whole note’ is a semibreve elsewhere (semi = half); a breve in English is a double whole note in American-English - all endlessly confusing, though I am surprised you were unaware of all this. It would have been helpful to say ‘…the whole note or semibreve’ rather than lose everyone except your US audience.
The terminology whole note, half note, quarter note, eighth note and so on is logical, easy to understand, and universal among speakers of Teutonic languages, in addition to citizens of the US. It also makes life easier for all those whose native language is not British English. I too use and relish the idiosyncratic British terminology (minim, crotchet, quaver!), but it is ridiculous to cut yourself off from global musicology because of insular prejudice. (Not that Wim Winters is in any sense a musicologist, but that is another matter ...) And at least, adopting the mathematical system avoids the endless confusions caused by Engish crotchet and French croche!
@@dorette-hi4j This is simply inaccurate in that the rest of the English-speaking world also uses the ‘idiosyncratic’ (not) terminology that is just ‘insular prejudice’ (ie the home of the mother language doesn’t follow German/US practice). As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, the mathematical terminology is *not* easier for Italians, French, Spanish and the rest as they too are ‘ridiculous’, suffer from ‘insular prejudice’ because they don’t follow your imagined (ie US) ‘global practice’ (it’s not*), and have a non-mathematical system from where the British one derived. My point about Wim’s talk was he lost most of his listeners by using in English, American-English terminology which is *not* widely understood outside the limited areas you mentioned, and that it would not have been difficult to say ‘crotchet or quarter note’ which listeners in French or Italian for example would have in their minds translated the English term rather than the American-English one. * One of the greatest of American musicologists of the 20th/21st century HC Robbins Landon who died in 2009 uses invariably the British terminology you so deride in his extensive writings, and he is not alone.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 I don't deride the British terminology. It is what I learnt. I enjoy its quirkiness, mixing terms derived from renaissance Latin with terms descriptive of the appearance of the note on the stave. I did not say that the terminology was ridiculous. I do think it is ridiculous (a) to suppose that not continually referencing them drives away listeners from the UK and its historical dominions, and (b) to be so offended by their omission that you give up the moment you realize that Mr Winter (whose native language is Dutch/Flemish) is using the other system.
@@dorette-hi4j You have the last word; you are clearly just reciting a well-rehearsed argument which does not address the points I have raised, nor acknowledge the reality of the geographical limitations of the mathematical terminology of note values. I simply suggested that the English note values be accorded equal status to the American-English ones because they are more widely used; you have a problem with that, and also fail to acknowledge that other major European languages similarly do not use the mathematical terminology. Anyone passing by will understand the point.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 I will, then. I do take your points. I just think you are wrong about intelligibility. Perhaps you would not like to admit that the variety of English that has become a universal language is American (US) English. I don't particularly like it either, but it is the way it is. Is it really easier for a Frenchman to remember that in English a blanche is a minim and a noire is a crotchet and a croche is a quaver, than to know about the fractions of a whole note? And would it not make discussions of musical matters rather cumbersome if every time a note value was mentioned you had to give both the UK and the US versions, on the off-chance that someone in Australia might not know the equivalences? How did a semi-breve become a whole note? Indeed, how did half a short become the longest note in common use? We have to go back four hundred years and more for answers to these questions.
3:09: "you feel that this is not physically possible anymore" - followed by a sparkling performance of Beethoven's first sonata at its "physically impossible" proper alla breve allegro speed. Can Mr Winters genuinely not hear that his performance is playing what is supposed to be allegro in the style of an andante?
@dorette, Wim Winters’s videos are suitable for those who do not have the knowledge to detect the many errors in WW’s videos. Wim Winters actually proves himself that there must be something wrong with his videos. In a video, he presents good performances of Bach’s two-part inventions, and he follows tempo ordinario, 60-80 heartbeats per minute. So far, everything is just fine! But in a number of Beethoven’s piano sonatas, allegro movements, they get fewer heartbeats per minute than the inventions! Beethoven’s Op 14 No 2, first movement, marked «allegro». There WW is down to 46 heartbeats per minute(0:27). This is of course not credible, it is completely illogic.
1:27. Should Beethoven's 9th be performed in Whole beat or in Single beat? Cobra vs Gardiner. Funeral march vs revolutionary outpouring of joy. Your choice. But if you go for the funeral march, bear in mind that there is no nineteenth-century evidence for that 'Whole beat' interpretation.
@@Pablo-gl9dj The presenter mentions that we are reading the tempi of J. S. BACH incorrectectly!! THE METRONOME WAS NOT EVEN INVENTED IN BACH'S TIME!!
The experience of being humiliated by an illustrious Canadian art school when I was in my early teens (far too soon for me), for loving the masters, I failed miserably, and cost my parent dearly. I avoided studying the craft later, though I continued privately to produce for myself, though I new it lacked the discipline in the craft. In my 60s, I took a 2 week course with a fellow from the Angel Academy in Florence (he visited Canada where I was living), and I learned how little I know and how untrained I am and how late I had left this effort. It is not that I can't learn because I'm too old now, but in my late 70s I feel tapped out. Fortunately I was able to learn the craft of playing the piano from a master, and enjoyed a performing career for many years (in restaurants and hotels). Not high art by any means, but a joyous romp through music which touched me deeply, with a broad range of genres which seemed to appeal to a lot of people. Funny how life can happen. What you've articulated here I've felt and known for a very long time though not in the detail you've brought to the discussion. Thank you for anchoring this depth of understanding so succinctly and wisely.💐
VallaMusic. I try to use logic when arguing against the theory that Wim Winters believes in. Here at RU-vid we find a number of videos of children, 7-12 years old, playing Chopin’s etudes much faster than double beat tempo. We know that Chopin was about 20 years old when he composed opus 10. He had about 10 more years to reach a high level of technical play, but WW want you to believe that Chopin played much slower than the kids!? Be aware of this: Chopin grew up in a time of fierce competition between pianists. So what do you think? Does the theory make sense?
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 good argument - I don't know the answer - i come at it more intuitively as a composer myself - so much is lost at faster speeds - the music becomes a blur - like colors of paint on a canvas that start to drip and run
VallaMusic, thank you for your response. RU-vid is an amazing medium, what we write reaches most of the world. We must show respect for the many who read our comments, therefore what we write must be true. VallaMusic, quote: « - so much is lost at faster speeds - the music becomes a blur…» Yes, there are many who make the same point - it is difficult to perceive the details of fast tempi, which is why people think that fast tempi are wrong, but maybe they are correct? The mistake people make is assessing the value of what they hear theough RU-vid. We can’t do that, RU-vid didn’t exist back then. The music was most often performed in the private homes, the audience was in the same room as the instruments, and therefore it was possible to perceive the details despitethe fast tempi. Unfortunately, in our time there are pianists who exaggerate the use of the sustain pedal, and then the music really becomes blur! We know that Chopin warned against excessive use of the sustain pedal. And we must never forget the significant differences between the instruments then and now.
EruannaArte. Wim Winters reached its position through manipulations and sencorship, among other things. For civilised people, there is no honor in reaching such a position by manipulate their followers. You apparently also lack knowledge and have therefore also been manipulated by Wim. The signature Liquensrollant has understood it better than you: «Wim has the advanage that most people(like me)don’t know enough to prove him wrong».
When people ask me what I paint, I say I paint whatever the hell I want. I feel no obligation to follow Kant's or Hegel's rules, or your rules. If you find inspiration from Odd Nerdrum, that's a good thing, I suppose. But there are a lot of portals into this thing we call 'art', and neither one of us is going to agree on the correct one. The Larry Shiner book that you cite looks interesting, but I would also mention Jean Gebser's 'The Ever-Present Origin', a comprehensive history of human consciousness, and what the art of a given epoch can reveal about the state of consciousness of the time. If you have no interest in that type of discussion, then you might want to temper your judgement of so-called modern art.
You've never read Kant and are projecting symptoms of postmodernity onto him. Genius, to Kant, was very different from unrefined natural talent. Genius has to be carefully regulated by taste before it can achieve anything worthwhile. "taste, like judgment in general, is the discipline (or corrective) of genius. It severely clips its wings, and makes it orderly or polished; but at the same time it gives it guidance directing and controlling its flight, so that it may preserve its character of finality"
Whole Beat? How can anyone believe it? Just look at all the historical documents that mention the time a particular piece or number of pieces took in performance. That automatically proves the whole beat concept is incorrect. I'll give the guy (winters) credit for making himself widely known due to the internet but readily available historical facts don't support his theory at all...and neither do our ears... ;)
The Premiere concert oft Beethovens 5th and 6th symphony and several other pieces in 1808 lasted 4 hours according to Johann Friedrich Reichhardt. If you sum up the durations of this pieces of nowadays performances you hardly reach 2h 45m.
@@tobiashaak3568 Yes, if the orchestra, pianist and singers perform non-stop. But guess what, this whole concert was reproduced several times in 2020. Esa Pekka Salonen with the London Phiharmonia, 4 hours 15 minutes. Louis Langree with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, 6 hours - including a 2 hour dinner break. Do the math. Have you ever been to a concert of classical music? Nobody is claiming that throughout the nineteenth century everybody played exactly, or perhaps even very closely, at the metronome mark (when works had a metronome mark). What is clear from concert durations then, and from early recordings, is that the tempi were in the same range as they are nowadays and were during the twentieth century (there are always a small number of exceptions), and that range is very far from WholeBeat as advocated by Wim Winters.
At least here I can be amused by Mr. Winters' sideshow and the always entertaining commentary without supporting his channel. It's like enjoying a harmless trainwreck.
haha this man Wim Winters blocks and bans everybody who has good arguments against him me included it's actually unbelievable how much this man is NOT able to can read texts ... about the metronome if I let you hear only one ticking sound with the metronome you can not know if I let you hear 100 bpm or 120 bpm or 60 bpm you need TWO ticking sounds... !!! and in the text it literally says that this doesn't mean that the pendulum needs to go back and forth it just means you need two ticking sounds to can get the tempo if I go from left side the STARTING point (first ticking sound) to right side (second ticking sound) I get my tempo ... but that's ONE cycle ... not two cycles like Wim claims unbelievable ... the writer of this text added this remark very specifically for people like Wim, that these people would NOT come to the wrong conclusion that this would imply two cycles (whole beat) but one cycle (single beat) there is NO way in the world the Maezel metronome was double beat, because of the simple reason it was not anymore about full or half cycles ... it was all about the invention of a TIME machine, 60 bpm just means you will get 60 ticking sounds in 1 minute the whole point is that it did not have anything to do anymore with full or half cycles but about universal TIME !!!!
sorry to say but the stupidity of this Wim is infinite lol take Maezel's metronome and the bell sound 2 that means for example you will hear a bell sound every time when the pendulum is at the right side or a full cycle = back and forth but he says back and forth is the note value So for a 2/4 composition that would imply that the note value 1/4 or quarter note is EXACTLY the same as the total bar because we use the bell sound for a bar , for a 2/4 you will chose 2 bell, for a 3/4 you will use 3 bell and so on it's like pure mathematics, seriously, you get 60 ticking sounds per minute exactly when you count the half swings, one cycle ... why in the world would a device that's perfectly based on this half swing suddenly counts in double swings ???? hahahahaha
Has anyone ever noticed that Wim's videos all have a title that grabs your attention and then, as you begin to watch, waiting for a clear, succinct, and straightforward explanation or declaration of whatever it is, he never actually gets there...he just talks in circles, embarking on any number of tangents and never quite ever getting back to the proposed primary point of his discourse? This is exactly the kind of tactic that cult leaders and marketing sales strategists use to double-talk their way into convincing their prey that what they are saying is important, by making it sound so much more complex and weighty than it actually is. At first, I used to think it was merely because he was speaking English which is not his first language, so I extended him the benefit of a doubt, and when I first discovered his channel had hoped to find truly interesting and inspiring content. I had thought, based on some of his earliest videos, that he would be a beacon of truth...until finally I came upon a video where he tried to argue that Chopin Etudes were all played too fast and then his ridiculous remarks about Beethoven tempi...it was then that I saw through his ruse and came to realize there is a nefariousness embedded in there. Whether it really is intentional misinformation or he truly believes this, I cannot say, nor do I care to make the distinction. I dare him to attempt to apply his WBT to vocal music. He will see quite quickly how easily it is disproved.
Oh my God, Wim Winters tries to grab your attention through attractive video titles, he must be a cult leader! You have a weird logic 😂😂 Oh by the way, Wim just released Beethoven's 9 symphonies including the 9th with four singers. It is still time to back the kick-starter campaign 😉
@@JérémyPresle So people do fall for such tripe. But carnival side-shows and snake oil salesman relied on a healthy percentage of suckers in the population. Plus ça change ... The OP's point wasn't so much the attention-grabbing title, as the rambling double-talk, making everything sound so much more weighty than it actually is. I would add the presentation of most of his videos: just him, behind a desk, in a subdued setting, looking straight at the camera as if he has you pinned down, talking in a professorial manner, seemingly authoritative, never engaging in true dialogue with anybody who disagrees with him. It is quite compelling, and very much the tactic of a cult-leader.
Thank you for this thought-provoking video. I want to add, having just discovered the Cave of Apelles as well, that I am both impressed and grateful that you and other presenters have mastered English and are providing this content in English. Thank you.
Dangerous in what way? A threat to convention beliefs. And Unless you've seen every video on the subject by Wim Winters your character assination is based on what, your disagreement with him. I suggest a closed mind is more dangerous than your alledged claim of "sick imagination."
@@danielwaitzman2118 As to my typing with my thumbs and misspelling, mea culpa, not that my message was any less clear for my heterographic content with the assistance of my pad’s previous spellcheck “correction”. (I had to copy paste for the next line. ) As to @antoniosilva7083 “This man is dangerous” and the “sick imagination” comments (the latter an accusations of insanity), where do you draw the line for character assassination @danielwaitzman? Do either of you play the piano? Do either of you possess superhuman powers to play repeated notes faster than a Steinway’s action/humanly possible or play a series of notes faster than the human ear can differentiate the individual notes? Etudes that exceed 22 notes per second and faster or J S Bach, all of the inventions at Czerny’s metronome marks indications in single beat. Some are possible but not everyone. And why would one want to attempt such when the possibility of injury, perhaps permanent injury (focal dystopia, a neurological condition that causes involuntary muscle contractions in the the body or repetitive stress injury, repetitive stress disorders, cumulative trauma disorders (CTDs), and a variety of other names? Which was never Czerny’s intent when he was giving a Tempo in step with Tempo Ordinario, as his preface mentions that the allegros were slower in J S Bach’s time. There’s been more than one concert pianist historically, and now recently so afflicted and they brought this on with a variety of composers they attempted (and didn’t achieve) playing all of Chopin, Beethoven, et al in Single beat, especially for the works that have yet to be recorded at such a speed but somewhere in between.
I am going to step on some toes here; and it is probably a good thing I am not in Europe; but this has been on my mind for some time. A quick google search will reveal that Kant, Hegel, and Nietzsche were German Jews; and the important "art critics" (a profession arising in the 19th century) were also primarily Jewish; as they were in the 20th. How was it that this group of Jewish intellectuals overwhelmed French artists and then all of Europe and then the Americas ( the last great American art movement being the Ashcan School which formed around Robert Henri; after Henri, the native American art movements were ended in favor of Kantian "Art.")? Were the French Enlightenment intellectuals so weak minded; or were they of the same tribe though hidden? Even the English artist and aesthetician Sir Joshua Reynolds of the latter 18th century was cast into the dustbin of history. In short, the entire aesthetic tradition of Europe from Aristotle to Reynolds was overthrown in the 19th century. Again, In short, the Judaical drive to destroy European civilization and its people has been an ongoing successful project for over at least two centuries.
My question is: How did Immanuel Kant's ideas spread from Konigsberg to to across Europe; why would some aristocrat have such influence from so far out of mainstream Europe? How did they travel so quickly; and how did his ideas overwhelm European thinking at that time?
Enjoying your videos! Great stuff. This video makes explicit a certain theme. In many of your videos, it’s present as a subtle, background theme - for example mentions of ethos, pathos, etc. Very Aristotelean. Youre undoubtedly right about Kant and Hagel. But there’s so little appreciation of Christ’s influences prior to impressionism and modern art. You even maintain the lense of ancient Greeks while showing churches and discussing “the prodigal son” The whole arc could be recast in Christian terms rather than the way you do. So, both concepts are key.
With 'disinterested' Kant does not mean indifferent, he means that you can't judge beauty on a personal need. A painting of food should not become more beautiful when you are hungry.
@Andrew-ho4vq No he doesn't mean that at all. He just means that other things in the world are for a practical gain, while the passion for art is just for the art.
The claim that contemporary art is heir to traditional art is an outrageons falsehood, since that very contemporary art and modern art generally have been constituted in wave after of wave of avant-gardist movements over the course of the last century, and since each of those movements, starting with cubism, disavowed, rejected, vilified, ridiculed (see, for ex., Duchamp's "LHOOQ") and wanted to annihilate the tradition (read, for ex., the manifestos of Dada, the most nihilistic of those movements). The history of modernism, like so many aspects of modernity, is a history of negation, of destruction (of "deconstruction", as today's pontificators of nihilism and hatred like to say).
