He says: yeah, if we can go straight through it, thats no problem for us. Implying that if everything was ok, they wouldnt mind going through. Not the cocky click bait you posted as a title.
"We can go straight through it, there's no problem for us." This is what happens when businessmen decide they also want to be commercial pilots. He was so wealthy, he could have chartered a private jet for everyone in his family, including the family dog, who also perished in the crash. I have been flying for over 20 years and have learned to respect weather. Jet liners only spend minutes in icing conditions when climbing. This pilot hung around in the soup and battled ice for almost 30 minutes. An American Airlines pilot reported severe icing in a PIREP during this flight, received the information and decided to also risk his family.
Yep, yep, yep, you are correct, sir ! ...but he certainly had that I'm a cool pilot, and nothing scares me growl voice going there before all went to hell.
I have run across icing conditions that were unexpected and unreported long ago, and as soon as I recognized what was going on I made immediate moves to get out of it. I did not ask for permission. I called and told the controller what I was going to do. My plane did not have a functioning anti-ice system, and it only took me a few seconds to see the build up and how I had no other means of removing it other than removing myself from those conditions. This pilot did not fly the plane. He was letting someone who was not even there fly the plane for him. Whatever other mistakes he made, that was one that he could have corrected very easily and quickly. He chose not to.
I took off from TEB that day shortly before this aircraft did and flew the same initial LANNA route. I was one of, if not the one who reported the severe icing at 14000. I remember it very clearly. I flew that particular jet for over 8 years and that day was the only time the ice accumulation on it ever concerned me. Our anti ice could not keep up and it was accumulating rapidly. I drive that part of 287 occasionally and always think of this tragedy.
Cannot fault tower or approach at all on this one. How do you run out of fuel at the same airport you departed from? Only the pilot knew (or didn't know) how empty he was when he took off. What am I missing here? The guy took off with no fuel, went missed and did not have enough for a single lap in the pattern? I am puzzled.
These people who are dissing this pilot need to reconsider. The initial report was light rime. His hi performance plane should have been able to handle that. So far, no mistakes noted. If I follow this correctly, it wasn’t until he was in it that the first pirep report of moderate to severe popped up. By then he was already in it. His choices was to descend or climb. ATC led him to believe it would get better in the climb, so he chose the latter. Unfortunately, the severe/extreme ice built faster than he could shed it. There are a lot of bad pilots. I don’t think this was one of them.
If his engine ice vanes weren’t deployed as others are saying in comments here, that’s going to lead to a flameout. Regardless of what ATC said, they should have been deployed before he entered visible moisture.
It was indeed on the pilot. He misjudged the icing situation completely. He should have avoided any icing area, including "light rime ice." Avoid, avoid, and avoid all icing areas at all times. Weather forecasters and ATC can't tell you the exact conditions. Take their forecasts and advise with a big grain of salt. Just avoid the whole situation where this can happen. He spent 30 minutes in this icing condition? Probably on autopilot that whole time. That is a no-no. Autopilot would just mask the difficulty the aircraft is experiencing. It will make you think everything is under control until it suddenly lets go and disconnects because it can't handle it anymore. In these types of icing conditions, when the autopilot disconnects, the aircraft instantly goes out of control. In icing, you should not use autopilot at all.
I am thinking The icing didnt kill them. It was exceeding structural airspeed and breaking the wings off that did it. I imagine he came screaming out of the clouds, saw ground and pulled back on the stick breaking the plane?
Due to the pilot's failure to activate the inertial separator, the aircraft ingested ice, leading to a fatal crash on a busy freeway. The lack of proper altitude and full power, combined with the challenging nature of the TBM aircraft, resulted in an uncontrollable dive and subsequent breakup mid-flight. The accumulation of ice, exacerbated by the pilot's decisions, ultimately led to the tragic outcome for all onboard. It was really sad the witnesses watched it coming down completely vertical trailing smoke before it impacted the highway. Sadly the passenger's were long gone.
Hard to believe that he didn’t actuate the ice vanes. He was way behind the plane, if that’s the case. He should have done that prior to entering visible moisture and +5C temps.
@@rprice33The majority of these ATC audio's ive studied the dockets already. The panel survived the crash pretty much intact in the pictures he has all the deicing switches activated except the intertial separator. He had checked the weather but luck was not on his side. His flight plane had a altitude around 24,000 feet, so when the airmet to keep propeller aircraft at I believe 7,000 feet it didnt apply to him. ATC climbed him for other traffic and he lingered in the icing conditions, it only took around 18 seconds for the ice to overwhelm the deicing system and he started ingesting ice and he did the worst thing ever, he attempted to climb to 21,000 feet and stalled it. Im going to make a educated guess that he was using the autopilot and it disconnected abrubtly in that climb leaving him no time to recover. Air Safety Institute has this accident in depth on their channel. He descent rate was something insane from what I remember the witnesses saw pieces fly off and had no choice but to drive through the impact fireball so it took out a dodge ram and other vehicles.
With all due respect, Flight Follower, the map you have showing throughout the video is at least misleading, if not just wrong. :-( While I understand it shows the whole planned flight path, the red circle and the center of the map is in Virginia (and the District of Columbia, which is inside the red circle you have drawn there) -- *not* New Jersey where the crash happened (which is just on the very top-right of the map). According to your video, the crash happened on I-287 just west/southwest of Morristown Airport in Morristown, New Jersey. Morristown is well over 300 km (just under 200 miles as the crow flies) from the area you have marked with the red circle! It *is*, however, correctly indicated by the barely-visible green line showing the aircraft's flight path out of KTEB (Teterboro), shown as TEB at the very tippy-top of the map. The crash happened just where that tiny green line ends along the flight path indicated. So, it would be far more useful to show the map of the entire region of New Jersey, from Teterboro Airport to the border with Pennsylvania there. Otherwise, it makes really very little sense why the map would be so big -- except of course, I can see maybe you wanted to highlight the entire flight plan, and how they didn't make it very far. Which is fine, except the red circle is very, very confusing, since it's in Washington, DC, nowhere near the crash site. :-( Thanks again.. I recognize for these older ATC recordings, you don't have the awesome modern data to go along with them to show the aircraft flying along a moving map... but still, it'd be nice if the map showed clearly where the crash happened relative to the airport, so users could visualize the situation a little better. Perhaps you could start with a zoomed-out map like you have now (but without the red circle, or moving it to where it belongs), and then for the bulk of the video, zooming into the region where the flight actually flew so users can view it better. Thanks again.
The red area is the restricted zone around DC. Maybe it is confusing that the map shows the flight path and not the crash area, but I don't know if zooming in would be informative in any real sense unless you already know the area. What's not clearly shown is the weather.
@@NuncNuncNuncNunc Oh! That makes a lot more sense. I did say it was "at least misleading", so thankfully, I think that's still true. But yes, thanks for clarifying that. (I did think maybe it meant something like a TFR, or whatever the equivalent of a permanent one was, given the location, but I don't think any non-pilots would necessarily realize that.) Thanks again for that clarification. I agree about the weather also being unclear (no pun intended). Re: zooming in, I have seen a lot of this channel's videos of other flights too long ago to have good ADS-B tracks, and in many of those, it would be a sectional over the airport near the crash, for example. I'm not sure that's much better, honestly. But I'm also not sure why it couldn't be doable to overlay the position through the first part of the video, in which case zooming in would make that a lot more legible. Even without the ADS-B data, you can still infer the position (especially since I'm guessing it's in the docket for the NTSB report?) vis-a-vis the initial radio traffic. Of course, most of the video would still be that aircraft in one place where it crashed, so not necessarily that useful (and I'm *not* suggesting it makes sense to try to track down any tracks for the other aircraft that called in -- especially those helicopters -- since that data is surely not available anywhere). Thank goodness for all the ADS-B aggregators out there for the modern era. :-)
-The problem with GA, and this comes from an airline pilot who spent four years as a primary flight instructor at FlightSafety Academy in Vero Beach, is that there is not enough management. At that Part 141 school with PERFECT maintenance on very new airplanes, I never had a thing to worry about. And I was doing instruction in good weather. But here is the problem: Many people view light aircraft as viable transportation. They are NOT! -Here is a scenario that illustrates my opinion of General Aviation, which is not good: The husband is interested in aviation. He's an attorney, makes about $350,000 per year, and they live in a place like Indiana or North Carolina, where life is fairly cheap. He lives in a 4500 square foot home he bought for $380,000 about ten years ago, and has two kids, a dog, a '17 F-150, and his wife drives a Honda minivan. He starts taking flight lessons, which, while expensive...Are nothing for his income. He spends the $10k, and passes his private pilot checkride. His wife thinks it is a cool hobby, but doesn't care about aviation. He takes the wifey for a ride, and she is...Ambivalent. Ok, so now he rents planes a few times per month and he REALLY has the bug! As a result, now, he starts thinking: He wants his OWN airplane. So, he starts looking around online. He finds a plane, a Piper Cherokee 6, that seems pretty cheap. It can haul the whole family with the 300 hp engine. He comes back to the advertisement a day later. And several times over the next few hours. Folks, our boy is SOLD; He wants the 1973 airplane! AND now he does the dance in the bedroom; He brings his laptop into the bed, and shows her how "cool" this old airplane is, despite the average interior and the good recent paint job. He goes on to explain how they could fly to destinations instead of drive or take airline trips. She's not impressed... He notices this as any man who is married would know and INSTANTLY kicks into his backup plan: He tells her "How cool would it be if you showed up at a FAMILY GATHERING WITH YOUR SISTERS....Via private plane" (Instantly, the Female Unit realizes the come-upmanship of the fact that SHE would arrive via "private plane". The "dance" is working... ) And that of course would put her at the TOP of the pecking order with her sisters. Suddenly, the notion of the expensive Piper Cherokee 6 is a winner! So the Male Unit purchases said Cherokee 6, thinking it is basically a Jeep Cherokee with wings. And he puts about as much effort into maintenance of the Cherokee 6 as he does to his 4.0 liter Jeep Cherokee. That means, he doesn't take the thing seriously... NOW; Thanksgiving arrives. The Female Unit wants to show off her ARRIVAL via private plane to her sisters, and they plan the trip to her parents house. Unfortunately, the weather calls for marginal VFR along the whole route; A better idea would be to pack the Jeep Cherokee rather than the Cherokee 6, but the Male Unit now feels pressure: He sold this vehicle to the Female Unit with the idea that it would transport her to the Top Of The Pecking Order, but he knows that flying there would be a bad idea. Yet....The Female Unit DEMANDS air travel. SO, they pack the Cherokee 6 instead of the Jeep. AND of course he winds up trying to fly VFR without an instrument rating into IFR conditions, and their two children wind up looking like overcooked hamburger patties three feet below the surface of a farm field. Smashed, dismembered, and BURNED. The moral of the story? General aviation airplanes are good for two things: Sightseeing on beautiful weather days, and flight training. They are NOT viable methods of transportation! Remember my lesson, I'm a major airline Captain these days, I think I know what I'm talking about-
Wow! Your sure stuck on yourself aren't you! All of those reminders in your comment that your an airline pilot. I remember a few dozen airline crashes and most where caused by the pilots or the inability of the pilot to handle an emergency situation or just plain stupidity. Maybe they also took themselves too seriously. Oh well. maybe you're just a computer pilot or maybe not even that.
“We can go through it, that’s no problem for us.” Well, maybe he should have just spoken for himself. Pretty sure his family wasn’t as confident as the man of the house. Sickening overconfidence. We all should call them the 5 DEADLY Attitudes.
May God rest their souls, and may He bless all you pilots. I lost my fiancé in 1988 due to a crash. He was coming home to me to make wedding plans. Navy officer. 🌹
These controllers could use some training in brevity on the radio. "Check for plane crash x miles south along your route" Not the whole history of how you don't recall "working anybody", etc....
Because sometimes people don’t know wtf they’re doing. But are 100% confident they know everything and can do anything. And their family believes them, or pretends to.
@@RetreadPhotoand yet, here you are again, having an opinion about stuff you don’t know. Climbing to a higher altitude is usually the best way of getting out of icing conditions. Had he descended to a lower altitude, he could’ve picked up severe icing on the way down too.
You’d have to be below 3,000 to get to no ice. You might as well land if you’re taking that option, which is what he should have done. Climbing was a suicide mission in this case, but if it was only light ice he would have been fine. His radar may have helped(?) avoid the heavy precipitation. In any event this was a lot of work load to throw yourself into. He wouldn’t have done this if it was a thunderstorm he was flying into. I give ice the same respect for sure.
He was instructed by ATC that things were a bit better if he claimed. Which is what he elected to do. If you actually listened to the audio and not just judge, he realized he was in trouble and asked for assistance.
Absolutely pathetic. If you’re minimum fuel you DO NOT follow another aircraft in. You declare an emergency, fly a visual circuit and stay within gliding distance of the runway. Idiot pilot.
This video kinda sucks. 🥲 Why not include the full recording so that we can hear what the read back was for the instructions? If the pilot read back incorrectly and ATC didn’t catch it, everyone is at fault.
He did not have the enging anti-ice activated. On the PT6 engine, it is called the inertial separator. The engine could have lost power do to engine inlet screen being iced over. Plus, you need to fly at a higher airspeed in heavy icing and the worst thing you can do is to climb in ice. That causes a higher angle of attack which means the wing ice forms behind the leading edge and under the wing.
"please tell us what we are doing wrong we are still learning and trying to do better" Audio is very loud at some points, for a start let's put a compressor on the audio track.
RIP With 8000 hours (majority of it on turbo prop aircraft) I've experienced severe icing in layer type clouds at mid cruise flight levels only once. In this case it was FL220 with temperatures below -20dC (super cooled in a very extensive geographic area). What made it severe wasnt the noise or vibration but the rapid decrease in speed. The noise and vibrations can easily distract from monitoring speed. On a single engine turboprop a vibration from the nose can be felt between shed cycles, youll feel vibrations through the floor into your feet. On a multi engine turbopop you may hear sounds of ice shedding and slapping into the fuselage. An aircraft like the TBM can loose 50, 60, 70 knots within a 10-20 seconds. In this case your only option may be to descend immediately to increase airflow over the lifting surfaces. During severe or extreme ice encounters in the mid flight levels a climb should be initiated if the situation is not deterioting further, and there is excess speed and power. Watch your speed. If you are multi crew remind the pilot monitoring to call out any speed deviations. Probably a good idea to fly well above the minimum icing speed in severe or extreme cases. Most ice encouters are experienced during the departure or arrival phase of flight. Even if its geographically extensive its normally only for a short period of time until you climb or descend through it.
well said, lower would have taken them into non-icing conditions and seemingly higher temps. He was a bit cavalier when the controller mentioned the icing. The TBM is very capable in icing, unfortunately SLD is a VERY serious situation and immediate actions must be taken.
Exactly that’s why it’s important to keep up to date with ATIS and I would always ask for any extra information from the controller so I was being careful and keeping my passengers safe.
Addendum: I’m a DASH 8, 752 and 762 Captain and while I’m regretful that the family was lost unfortunately some of our lessons are only learned from blood
Typical arrogance when pilot thinks that an expensive airplane certified for known icing can fly in any icing condition for extended times. Icing equipment is there to give you time to get out of icing. Icing is dangerous in any aircraft. It's like the student of mine that bought a twin with radar and he then thought it was OK to fly in thunderstorms.
Fourteen hundred hours is far from enough to screw with potential icing conditions solely because you have the keys to a high-performance, multi-million-dollar single. When you listen to accounts like this the word "arrogant" doesn't fully describe the emotional baggage a person is carrying that puts them in potentially deadly situations. xairline5082 made excellent points--particularly, about having the PNF monitor speed deviations. As a pilot for a major, I've experienced more than one occasion when the PNF gave me a heads-up on a potentially nasty situation. This was noted in the NTSB's final report: " at 0808 from a flight crew operating a McDonnell Douglas MD-83 aircraft at 14,000 feet over MMU. The pilot reported moderate to severe rime icing between 14,000 and 16,500 feet. One of the flight crewmembers reported that the icing was the worst he had seen in 38 years of flying experience and that he had never seen ice accumulate so quickly. He described “golf ball-sized” accumulation on the windshield wiper." There were numerous other PIREPs and AIRMETs issued before his climb to 14,000'. His causal, "That won't be a problem for us" with respect to the icing is one of the most chilling and infuriating communications I've ever heard--right up there with a crewmember of a Braniff Electra telling the Captain to ignore ATC's warning about severe thunderstorms in their path.
What is it with pilots in the Litigious States of America refusing to say Mayday Mayday Mayday? It’s the international call for distress and leaves absolutely no ambiguity as to the status of their aircraft. Poor guy was probably more worried about getting fired than dying. So he’ll get fired anyways.
Last I heard he was granted citizenship and now flies for Swiss Air.... But then I heard that the UK government allowed him access to the UK and he's now Chief Pilot for British Airways....
