These videos are observations regarding boxing and strength history ... geared primarily, although not exclusively, for those already familiar with these subjects.
E.T. is a retired educator whose academic emphasis was in political theory and history. He's an off & on bodybuilder, and he once competed in track, weightlifting and powerlifting. He suggests that you find qualified medical and training advice before embarking on a new diet or training routine. He "juices" greens regularly and consumes 80% (mostly) plant based foods. If you're a "senior" (or of any age), this channel has something for you. Get healthy now.
If the existing films of Ketchel vs Papke and Johnson are any indication, it would seem that Ketchel was more legend than legendary. Remember, this was a time before film was ubiquitous. Even still photos of fights was in its infancy. Hype for fights was written by the same men who reported on the fights and most of the time those same men worked as publicity men FOR the fighters involved in the match. Other than the 10 thousand or so who personally witnessed the match, the rest of the public had to go by what the newspapers reported and those reports could be blatantly biased or sensationalized. One day I will dig out a one-shot magazine published in the late 70s-early 80s that explained why most of what the “experts” wrote about the “legendary” fighters of the first two decades of the 20th century was blatant hype and present what I can of the text. It’s very illuminating.
Great redux, ET. When I see Arnold, I always think 'boobybuilder' - a term coined by Bob Hoffman of York Barbell (or possibly by his writer, Harry Paschall). They saw the direction in which bodybuilding was moving even before the dianabol era started.
The AAU, at Hoffman's behest, demanded a "well rounded" male with a utilitarian physique, one that was flexible, strong and capable of performing in several athletic events. Like John Grimek!
Every American sport has the same corrupted values. 1. Money, greed, gambling. 2. Government society/ moral propganda programing. 3. Sports are evolving becuase athletes are bigger , faster & stronger. Yet sports make the game easier becuase the competition is weaker.
People have perpetuated the lie that "Back in my day they were legal", no they weren't. Steriods have always been illegal without a prescription and if your using them for bodybuilding glory and not accident recovery you got the prescription under false pretenses. We took a sport that was supposed to symbolize beauty and health and now it represents the exact opposite (the podcasts routinely make excuses for top pros who die in their 40s, and who knows the extent of the health problems others go through who don't die but suffer from a reduced quality of life.)
Yes, they were legally available only with a doctor's prescription. Unfortunately, they quickly appeared in gyms and even at sports team's dinner tables ... in bowls & jars ... and often consumed like candy.
ET … Great coverage of the Tunney- Dempsey Chicago Fight that has gone down in history embracing both “the long count” and “the neutral corner rule.” Spokane columnists Harry Missildine and Bill Boni raised the subject in respective columns in 1955. The following observation was written by one who traversed to Chicago to see the fight and had a ringside seat amongst the 140,000 in attendance. He responded to Bill Boni on the subjects of “the neutral corner rule”and “the long count” as described in Boni’s column as follows: “A gentleman from Osburn, Idaho, who signs himself "Young Firpo" agrees that the second Dempsey-Tunney fight in 1928 was the first in which the neutral-corner-on-a-knockdown rule was used in a heavyweight championship fight. "Dempsey was the originator of the idea and it caused him to lose his opportunity to regain the title he had lost the year before in Philadelphia," he writes. "As to the long count, I can truthfully say that 20 seconds is what Gene really took while sitting on the floor in the seventh round. How could I ever forget? It cost me $40 that night for a ring-side seat." Your description of the beating that Dempsey suffered in the fight parallels what Young Firpo told his sons: “Tunney slashed Dempsey’s face to ribbons.”
I bought an edition of Tunneys book A Man Must Fight and it was a special 1 of 550 signed editions but the damn pages had a default where as most of the pages weren’t cut so were attached still to each other and it’s too risky to cut each page making it readable. Crazy. Dempsey was only a few years older than Tunney, replying to someone else’s comment but he wasn’t the same fighter who had fought Willard,Miske, Brennan, etc. There was a fighter in the 1910’s that was washed up before he was twenty. I’d rule Dempsey as in my top three defiantly of all time greatest heavyweights, Jack Johnson number one with Dempsey as two and the third is between Ali, Marciano and Louis. Thanks for another great video.
Great story, ET. Tunney followed the only count that mattered after he had been floored - the referee’s. I like the way the ring announcer never even bothered to mention Dempsey’s error. The count of the ref was what mattered. Strange how the ref changed his ways the very next round, when Tunney floored Dempsey.
Tunney beat Dempsey's butt twice. And Dempsey was only two years older than Tunney. If Dempsey was out of shape that's his problem. Instead of using the "long count" as an excuse, what about the rest of the rounds which Dempsey lost convincingly.
The long count is a legitimate question mark to A "what if" for that grand event . Everyone knew Dempsey can't beat Tunney on points , but only by a knockout.
Regardless of the small age difference Dempsey was past it. He had not fought in years which was his own fault. The ref Dave Berry was an associate of Al Capone. When Tunney knocked down Jack he begins the count IMMEDIATELY, before Tunney went to the neutral corner as this video tells.
Read this book years ago. Excellent and anyone who considers themselves a boxing fan and makes comments need to read this book And the 3 part bio of Jack Dempsey by Adam J Pollack is the definitive bio of Jack. If you make comments about Dempsey or his career and you have not read this book you are not qualified to comment. I have been involved in boxing for over 60 years. Pollacks bio is the finest most important boxing bio I have ever read. Mr Pollacks next book will be multi volume bio of Tunney.
Thank you loved the story. I have a little something to say about Sonny Liston. My late brother-in-law’s cousin was living in Philadelphia in the 60s and used to play cards with Sonny Liston. He told me that Sonny told him that he threw the fights with Ali. He’s been telling me this for as long as I’ve known them which has been 35 years. He also believes that Liston was killed . I have confirmed with other sources that he actually knew Liston and did play cards with him I loved your story..
Never knew they sparred on more than one occasion, there’s a handful of these episodes I can’t stop watching over again and again. Great Channel, Leo Cloutier has his own RU-vid channel and has him interviewing Dempsey on there and I was recently in touch with a company that restores old poster and because I had an old sparring advert of Dempsey that needed restoring I asked and it turned out to have been Leo’s son so he offered me a discount, when I mentioned this on his channel he replied to me with “I don’t give discounts” which I thought was pretty funny. Would have loved to have met all the old greats. Thanks for your great channel. Chris Wales UK.
Jack Hurely was the made behind Boone Kirkman. He made one of his few mistakes when he agreed to a Garden fight between Kirkman and George Foreman. Hurley wanted Floyd Patterson but the Garden talked him into Foreman. Kirkman got destroyed in two rounds and the two parted company after that fight.
Mr ET; As a longtime student of boxing history, most writings about Tommy Burns were negative. They would criticize his height, his opposition, his modest boxing skills, and the fact that he, Tommy Burns, was the first white Heavyweight Champion to give a black fighter a chance at his title. When researching Tommy from several sources, I found him to be a "gentleman" in the ring and out of the ring. The name-calling between Tommy and Jack Johnson during their fight was as much Johnson's fault as Tommy's. Yet writer after writer ignored Johnsons insults to Tommy. There was some hard feelings between Burns and Johnson before their fight and this would open the door to the vile name calling between the two during their fight. The four Heavyweight Champions before Burns, all drew the "color-line" and refused to fight the best challengers that were black.John L.Sullivan, James Corbett, Robert Fitzsimmons, and James Jeffries had some great black fighters during their reigns as the Champ, but nary a one was given a chance, until Tommy Burns broke that barrier.He was given very little recognition for this, as he could have done what his predecessors had done with no problem. During his losing effort against Jack Johnson, Tommy Burns went out like a Champion should. He went down fighting, even though Australian Police stopped the fight in round 13. This would not tarnish Tommy's gallant effort. A fight between Tommy in his prime, and Sam Langford in his, would have been a great fight. For myself, Sam was the greatest at pound for pound. He would have knocked Tommy out in the late rounds, after a tough and hard effort by Sam. Tommy deserves the proper recognition of breaking the color line for black fighters of that time. I really find it ironic that Jack Johnson himself would draw the color line after he won the title from Tommy. He did fight one black fighter in Paris, Battling JimJohnson. Johnson was good, but NOT in the same class as Joe Jeanette, Sam McVey, Sam Langford, and Harry Wills. All had approached Johnson for a shot and all were given the hand sign. Thanks Mr. ET for this great video/commentary on a former Heavyweight Champion that received little or no respect during his fighting years. Sorry for the length of this post sir. A very interesting topic.
Mr. ET; very good and "accurate" analysis of Liston in his youth. That mid-ring "stare" Liston would give an opponent as they were getting instructions from the ref, would defeat some of those fighters before the bell rang for Round One.
The story doesn't add up for several reasons. The upper tax rate for high earners was 73% upto 1921, so the rich weren't the mega rich of today and wouldn't be able to match the money from a huge crowd and other revenues. The idea Dempsey knocks outs a defensive mover like Johnson early is unlikely when he struggled with fleetfooted boxers throughout his career. Then there is the history of Dempsey getting his ribs broken by a 3rd rate black fighter and never fought a black fighter again after that, ducking Harry Wills, Jack Johnson, Sam Mcvey, Jeanne Jeanette and Kid Norfolk. He didn't just duck black fighters though, he ducked Harry Greb and fought lots of people who lost to Harry Greb. There is witnesses who said Greb beat Dempsey in sparring. Dempsey and his manager didn't want the money train to come to an end by risking it against the top boxers of the day. Dempsey also agreed to fight ANY heavyweight boxer that the manager of a charity event chose for him 4 days out of the event. Three days out, he found out his opponent would be Joe Bonds. Bonds apparently gets sick the night of the fight, Joe Jeanette's opponent Kid Norfolk also is unable to go (don't know why), and so Dempsey is match with Jeanette for 4 (or 6) rounds in an exhibition at MSG. Dempsey refuses to fight Jeanette, and says he will fight ANY TWO WHITE heavyweights instead. The crowd goes into an uproar and boos Dempsey, calling him a bum, coward, yellow dog, etc. They cheer Jeanette who is back and forth between sitting down and approaching Dempsey ordering him to fight. Dempsey's manager steps in and says he will only allow Dempsey to fight Joe Bonds. The crowd is none too happy as Dempsey leaves the ring. Dempsey and his manager didn't want him losing his title and the.
Hey ET, Did you grow up during this era or learn about it after? I'm guessing you read the 'Kid's' biography? The Hostack win is impressive although one judge had it a draw and their rematch was a draw. I think the Murderer's Row, were the best fighters at light heavyweight, including Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Charles Burley, Bivins, Booker, Chase and Holman Williams. Matthew's took on 3 Murderer's Row fighters, losing to Booker and Chase but beating an old Lloyd Marshall who was on a losing run at the end of his career. I think Booker and Chase were probably the best light heavyweights he faced despite Nadico being a great scalp. The Layne scalp was excellent. Rocky would always be too strong for such a smaller man. Did you know Sugar Ray and Archie Moore negotiated a fight but Ray wouldn't agree to giving the champ 50% of the purse. So Archie asked his wife to get his jacket. Archie said Charles Burley was the best boxer he ever faced
ET …. Harry Kid Matthews in the early 1970’s stopped in Silverton, Idaho, where Young Firpo was hospitalized. Matthews and Firpo were related by marriage. When Matthews unexpectedly arrived at the hospital, my brother and I were visiting Firpo in his room. We had no idea, never having previously met Matthews, who was entering the room. Matthews said, “Hello Firp!” Firpo, with an astonished look on his face, looked at Matthews, and said: “Well, Matthews!! My God!” Out of respect, my brother and I left the room so the two gladiators could talk in private. Matthews told us that he became a fighter at his father’s urging and added that his father’s favorite fighter was “The Wild Bull of Burke,” Young Firpo. There’s much more to relate to you. I’ll be back. Matthews had a stellar boxing record, no doubt, and he is vastly underrated as an all time great light heavyweight fighter! Thanks for posting your coverage of Harry Kid Matthews.
The three volume bio of Jack Hurley by historian John Ochs The One Is Jack Hurley describes Harry Mathews’s and Jack Hurleys relationship perfectly. Highly recommended read
I must be mad but I just bought the poster shown at the beginning of this video for a crazy amount of money, then found out, before the poster even arrived, that I have rising damp in most of my house and will cost over £25 grand to fix!
My top 3 heavyweights Jack Johnson, Dempsey then Langford Greatest P4P is like Genr Tunney said, Jimmy Wilde(, with Greb close behind, I’m a Welsh valley born so could be slightly biased .) Chris from Wales, UK love this channel
@@ET-RAMBLINGS Driscoll,Welsh Owen Moran all forgotten too and the Battling Nelson gang are forgotten for their great technique. Lucky we have channels like yours to keep the youthful fans informed on the old timers.
I weigh 176-181 and i go to my gym and use the heavybags. Those bags are big and moving around everywhere when i hit them.I have power in a punch because im over 175 and throw my weight in the punch.
A fighter can weigh 176 pounds and is technically a heavyweight.Jack Dempsey was a real true heavyweight and Willard was a strong super heavyweight at 245.
A heavyweight is any fighter that weighs over 175pounds.Forget the stupid cruiserweight division. Rocky Marciano weighed 184,James Braddock 193,Ingemar Johansson 194,Floyd Patterson 182.Dempsey never weighed 200 pounds or over but he was very strong at 180-190 pounds.All muscle in his body.
Jack Dempsey was a strong 180 plus pounds.Thats heavyweight. He was all muscle and had power.Any fighter that weighs over 175 pounds can hit like a heavyweight. Thats 1000 newtons of force in a punch.
The best boxer category, has to have a heart & chin. Without those two attributes , A boxer cannot be the best of the best. There's some greats like Sonny Liston, Mike Tyson, Floyd Patterson, that probably be eliminated , regardless of thier great physical ability. Let's take all these boxers & put them in the 1920's. Can these boxers overcome 6 oz gloves , no mouth piece, & fight in temperatures of 100 degrees? How well will Frazier & Foreman do, without PED & weights during that era. Can Foreman be the best in 100 degree heat, or be a dope like he was against Ali , in Zaire Africa in 90 temp. These boxing greats don't even know how to clinch fight amymore. Boxing intelligence , is underatted skill, that can surpass physical ability. Gene Tunney is a perfect example, Tunney was more modern then any boxer after him. Jack Johnson also incredibly intelligent. Is race a factor as well? Sports basically is politics controlled by the government to control social morality. Most will never understand how this works. Most will never know if one race is more dominant than the other, or equal. Money in sports does not mingle well with best of the best category. When it comes to money , the sport can drastically favor another boxer over the other. I think the best of the best is a hybrid style of both middleweight & heavyweight. Gene Tunney, Sam Langford, Jack Dempsey, maybe a Harry Greb & Sugar Ray robinson. There are exceptions like Joe Loius, Jack Johnson & maybe Jim Jefferies. Boxing is dead, because the heavyweight division minimum weight is 200 lbs . Heavyweights for the last 30 years are overweight blimps , with no chin , no endurance & no movement speed , all straight forward stationary punching bag targets.
Sam Langford for me . He was the greatest weight climber that fought from featherweight to heavyweight . Also fought the most HOF boxers 66 , is ranked by Ring Magazine as the 2nd greatest puncher of all time . Said to have been in over 600 fights which should be a record . But only half of his fights have been found 315 because of poor record keeping back then . Was colored middleweight champ and colored heavyweight champ that defended the title 41 x . Also HW champ of England , France , Canada , Australia and Mexico .Was avoided by Jack Johnson while he held the world title as avoided by Jack Dempsey as well among many others .
Just throwing some names out. Gene Tunney,Jim Jeffries, Willie Pep, Bob Fitzsimmons, Ricardo Lopez, Sam Langford, Ol John L Sullivan. I feel like I should be sitting at a bar somewhere talking about this.👍
I'm an historian. My Top 10 P4P based on a TON OF VARIABLES. The 1st 7 could ALL BE CONSIDERED GREATEST IN ANY ERA! Rocky Marciano, SRR, Carlos Monzon...greatest on any given day. Greb, Langford, Jimmy Wilde, Salvador Sanchez! Duran, Sadler, Armstrong. Most honest historians can interchange a few but not the TOP 3. That is sacrilidge IMO.
I've always thought SRR was the greatest fighter, but Eddie Futch says it was Charile Burley... Who SRR ducked. But then Burley lost two to Ezzard Charles, who was stopped by Rocky. It's tough.
Yes, rocky did stop him, though he was on the cusp of losing the fight because of Rocky's split nose. the first fight Rocky won by unaniomous decsion, only time Rockky was taken the 15 round distance, and he had to rally to win that fight. Charles also may have been past his prime. But one of the reasons also to suggest that Charles was the best boxer pound for pound of all time, is that he was possibly the greatest light heavy weight of all time. Beat Archie Moore all three time when they fought, once by KO. Now you can't find it, but I do believe that when he fought Moore, the Stae of Ohio recognized it as a world title fight. So there has recently been an arugjument made, that Charles was the greastest pound for pound. Over two decased ago, Rng Magazine did list Charles as teh geratest light heavyweight of all time. It can also be aruged, that during the decade of teh 1940's the light heavyweight diviosn was the geratest, the problem was that many of these guys were black boxers, who did not at the time get the title shot becuase of their color, same for the middlewieght diviosn, though other divisons were making better strides in allowing black boxers to win those titles.
Jones was amazing but he never went all out except for maybe once against Montell Griffin. He also failed to fight several top guys from his era. He squandered his career to be honest. I also think he was enhanced but special vitamins.
Duran with today’s full cocktails could’ve won 10 divisions started at 118 and took hagler to 15 and defeated perhaps the greatest welterweight ever. ,Joe Louis paved the way for Jackie Robinson, and had the biggest fight perhaps ever. Pacman 8 division will never happen again. Salvador Sanchez (best but not enough of years)
There are also some fighters who mysteriously seem to have the referee and judges on their side in close fights. I like Pacman who has been a force for 3 decades and at multiple weight classes.
I always believed that it is somewhat close to impossible to determine the true best fighter as each fighter has his own strengths and weaknesses both stylistic and physical, A out-boxer would lose against an infighter. There are many examples of this stylistic diffrence. Judging by sheer skill is also hard as its questionable which fighter is better for example Is James Toney better than Salvador Sanchez? This question cannot really be accurately answered. In my belief the best fighter should be rated depending on the era they dominated. This is the best way to categorise a fighter.
