That always bugged me about the other Defiant crew members. And it's a shame we didn't get a regular Romulan character. Could have opened up more insight into their species.
I don't know about you Captain, but for a race that sees 'solids' as always untrustworthy, Sisko trespassing with the most leveled up tank Star Fleet could build on short notice IS the most peaceful thing to me: If you threaten us, THIS is what we can send in response. THIS is how fast it will come. THIS is who we are willing to work with to make it happen, and THIS is our honest, unfiltered, opinion of your actions, viewed in our eyes.
Odo doesn't look like a founder. He looks like that because he can't do faces. To Eris, he was just another alpha quadrant species she knew nothing about. The other changelings take form to look like him. There is no reason to believe that even if Eris was in constant contact with the founders, she would have been able to recognize him as a founder.
I'm surprised you didn't note that the sculpture in the garden (2:40) was a re-use of the changeling artefact in The Alternate. Nice link, I thought. (Or maybe you did and I just somehow missed it three times)
You know it really shows how much of a brain trust the founders are when they showed sisko the worst possible deal imaginable and he'd and the federation would bend over and ask for more, for the sake of "peace". I among others have often called the federation out for being a bunch of panzy ass weeners whom are far to eager to make peace on Absolutely terrible terms just to stay on their moral high horse. And prove to the universe we humans have evolved But only the moronic would aspect these terms. No wonder the cardasions and ducuk bended over
Two thoughts... How do the founders procreate? Do they nip off a bit of goo from the great link and shoot it in space hoping it grows up ok? Do they make new goo somehow? Clones? Also I understand taking humanoid shape but why clothes or hair or gender. Odo is understandable as he's trying to fit in to the only cultures hes ever known while figuring out his own abilities but the founders are in control (no need to fit in except to literally fit in the space and utilize the equipment) why bother with making a dress or hair or bewbs 🤔 this idea distracts me from most episodes involving the 'female' founder. Thanks for another great review 💚🌹💚you are appreciated
They have clothes so that the camera isn't restricted to filming them from the shoulders up or with obstacles in the way. No matter what their bodies look like, Trek isn't going to show unobstructed humanoid nudity. They have hair to fit in with Odo. (Or maybe it's a coincidence) They have gender because they are played by actors who have gender. It's hard to get away from the gender and keep the performance.
actually, i think the founders themselves would've already infiltrated the alpha quadrant and gathered intelligence... probably a shape-shifter walked past by odo already long time ago, pretty early after the discovery of the wormhole which would've risen the founders attention pretty surely in no-time, so most likely, already during season 1 they sent out pro-shape-shifter spies. at least, in my head canon... end of monolog.
World covered in an ocean of orange brown goo that are liquified people in permanent mind meld. The Founders turn out to be a Post-Instrumentality species. "Get in the runabout, Odo!"
One of the things that always struck me as telling about Dr. Bashir's feelings about Plain Simple Garak is how Garak acts towards Bashir in the simulation. Realistically the Founders are using the crews own memories and thoughts to create it. So Bashir is the one who sees Garak as caring for him and sacrificing himself for him.
I love how the Founders let the Defiant crew go. Like, they've had intense secrecy atound the Founders to the point that even the existence of them viewed as a myth both some members of the Dominion, but keeping the Defiant crew captive or stopping Odo would be harm to one of their own; and that is so against their view that Changelings are the ultimate form of live and should never be harmed that they will allow Odo to walk away with prisoners without even an agreement to keep the information secret, all because the Founders can't bring themselves to even imprison Odo or keep his friends captive. Centuries of secrecy and security given up because the alternative is to even emotionally harm him. The Founders are, in their own way, the ultimate fascists. Their ingroup is, arguably, just one big individual with many facets. And everyone else is at most a tool to be used for their safety and security.
I thought that argument was more about the Bajorans. Some of the details of their suffering are clearly drawn from stories of Jews in WWII, but some of their TNG antics at least sound a bit Palestinian. The Dominion could be a bit like the Hellenistic Greeks. A multi-ethnic Empire led by a somewhat deified ruling class of pretty much a single (Macedonian) descent. Or the British in that "Dominion" was something of a British Empire term, the British ruled through intermediaries in several cases, and Britain at times saw their Empire as having a civilizing mission. Granted the Changelings clearly don't even really pretend to care about the people they're trying to control, but at least some species genuinely seem to find being in the Dominion profitable.
I was hoping the Founders would do some Imperial thing like telling Odo he can have the Federation if he wants it but if he ever needs some butts kicked he knows who to call. On a props issue, I wonder if anyone realized that having unconscious people's heads tilted back so far would likely result in them choking on their own tongues?
I always liked how once we see the Founders we get a clear distinction between Odo and them. The Founders want order, to control and dominate everyone and everything since they see it as the best way to keep themselves safe. I can not be hurt by the world if I control the world. The lives and rights of others are meaningless to them. Odo on the other hand also wants order but not just order. Odo understands that order without justice is tyranny and he saw what that produced during the occupation. Odo wants order but an order based on justice, not domination.
Exactly, Odo is someone who, unlike the other Changelings, still has connections with the solids and views them as deserving equality and justice. SFDebris had a theory that the Great Link is like a forum where all outside opinions have been driven out and the ultimate group think has taken hold, assisted by the nature of the Changelings. If you harm one or persecute one, all of them will get the first hand experience via the link.
@@dm121984 I've seen that review. It's a good analogy and really speaks to the main flaw of the Founders. They have no sense of empathy or sympathy for anyone who isn't one of their own. They talk about how taking the shape of a thing lets them understand the thing but we see (here and in future episodes) how hollow that statement is. Odo does have similar tendencies and the evil version of Odo we saw in the mirror universe shows how he could have walked down that path and become like the Founders. His experiences during the occupation and friendships with the rest of the crew are what saved Odo from that, what gave him such a strong sense of justice, and why he is able to stand up to the other Changelings
Without that contrast Odo could easily be written off as just another stereotypical cop with more concern for the law than people. He worked under a brutal regime enforcing laws that were by design unjust, and he even chaffes under the more liberal starfleet system. But he does to his credit, bush back firmly against Dominion and Founder philosophy, evethat great personal cost, many generally good people wouldn't hold a line under those circumstances.
you are incorrect the writers did know in season 2 the founders would be odos species. i know this because as a 10 yer old i was at the star trek convention in london the day after generations came out an i asked the producer the question does odo find out his species is? and she said yes and explained how in season 2 they came up with it an then showed us the clip of odo meeting the woman. before it had aired
According to the DS9 Companion, the idea was not adopted until the hiatus between the two seasons. Copied from Memory Alpha: "Although the concept of the Founders was established in the second season finale "The Jem'Hadar", the writers hadn't yet made any firm decisions about precisely who the Founders were. During the hiatus between seasons two and three of DS9, Michael Piller called a production meeting and, thinking the writers would reject the idea straight away, he suggested that perhaps the Founders could indeed be Odo's people. (The Birth of the Dominion and Beyond, DS9 Season 3 DVD, Special Features) Recalled Behr, "Michael said, 'I've got a crazy idea. You're all going to think I'm nuts; what if the Founders turn out to be shape-shifters?'" (Captains' Logs Supplemental - The Unauthorized Guide to the New Trek Voyages, p. 79) At the same time that day, Piller additionally proposed that the Founders were Odo's people, another idea he thought was "nuts." (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion, p. 159) When Piller suggested these notions, Behr burst out laughing, he and the other staff writers having come up with exactly the same ideas but having expected them to be dismissed. (The Birth of the Dominion and Beyond, DS9 Season 3 DVD, Special Features) Behr continued, "We just cracked up, and Michael said, 'What's so funny?'" After Piller learned the other writers had been thinking along the same lines as him over the past several months, he and Behr took the idea of the Founders being Odo's people to Rick Berman, who agreed the concept was a good one. (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion, p. 159)"
Don't worry Space dog, Founders Inc sounds like a very respectable company that will not turn out to be another spying attempt. 06:45 I see what you did there! Sisko's first clue it was a simulation should have been Admiral Nechayev not being a harbinger of death. Her idea of negotiation is more like Thunderdome.
Ah the Female Changeling (or my personal favorite nickname for her, Sanders) has entered the show and with her the Dominion Proper. I adore the Changelings as antagonists. They are the personification of Group-Think. Everyone in the link shares thoughts after all, and no one who isn't a Changeling is able to enter it. Therefore the Changelings rarely get to see outside perspectives and just constantly fuel their own over and over and over and over again. For all we know the persecution they suffered at the hands of Solids so long ago was an isolated incident, but the Great Link has replayed that incident constantly for them with nothing else to disprove it. And so it also fuels their self-importance, their ego until they declared themselves gods and seem to really belive it in some cases.
That's a good question, wasn't Eddington just introduced like 2 in-universe days ago? That's a hell of a job for Eddington to be simulated in that short amount of time.
@@Ceece20 As with Garak and Quark, I imagine they're based upon the collective experiences of the crew, with Garak likely more from Bashir's viewpoint due to his fascination with him as well as the amount of time they spend together. They don't really know much about Eddington but as he's now in charge of all Starfleet security matters and Odo resigned on principle, that works very well for the simulation - they didn't have to worry about simulating somebody who's likely gone from the station. However, I'm still curious as to why nobody even mentions him in conversation during the simulation at all - whether they were preoccupied, didn't think about him at all, the Dominion didn't know him sufficiently to simulate or they just didn't want them thinking about him, he's been excluded.
Seriously I always hated the pacing of this episode, it feels so slopily cut and edited towards the end, regardless of whether it took place in virtual reality.
If Quark were being watched by security because of the shipment, presumably even before Brain Transference Entity arrived at DS9, then how did the assault on Quark by BTE/Julian go unnoticed?
They should have done transporter buffer shenanigans, I'm sure there would have been copies of Neelix and Tuvoc, but then I guess they would not a moral dilemma for a story.
