Welcome to the first intallment of the $100 (or less) DIY pumpless meth injection setup. Once it's installed, we'll dyno test it to see how much HP it's worth. If you like it, please Subscribe!
After watching this video for the 100th time I have a suggestion for improvement. Buy a cheap pump and a motorcycle small fuel pressure regulator do the obvious connection so that the pump(switch is optional) is always pumping 40psi or more just like the fuel system and returning to the tank. Keep the big valve on the large tube boost referenced and put it after the regulator so that it remains closed and opens gradually with boost. And voila... let me know what you think or if i fucked up my thinking
I tapped to washer fluid tank as it is 5 liter volume. Goes to 90 psi 12V pump inlet. Outlet connecter via nozzle to intake manifold. Pump to battery via relay. Switch on driving wheel to activate relay. Pump is like $20, relay $1. Cheap, easy, works.
@@AlexLTDLX Not performence engine, 4 pot diesel in medium size crossover car. I mostly pop concentraded washer fluid (20-30% meth) to wash intake valves from crude. No ecology in given engine will give nice results. How often do you top up your meth setup? Mine setup is around 1LPM on outlet, so just use it manually for quick boost of power under heavy acceleration. Love it.
@@Fosgen Honestly, since starting the electric turbo journey and ditching the Whipple supercharger, I don't need any charge cooling anymore; so I don't use it. If you haven't seen it (starts with an epic burnout): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-AOL3Qyczt3Y.html
My brother used this setup on a 69 Rambler AMX. He had 12:1 comp ratio and it had just a small nozzle. No methanol just water. It worked on vacuum in a 4 barrel 850 holley carburettor.
You'll probably need a much larger jet than you think. The real kit comes with a high pressure pump but your boost pressure is a lot less than the pumps psi.
You can use a universal windshield fluid pump (17 bucks) a switch (2 bucks) a small coolant overflow tank (8 bucks) and a universal windshield fluid nozzle (15 bucks) all of this you can get at autozone.
Pumpless Methanol Injection, so interesting. There is something called Mist Coolant that is cheap and pumpless. It claims to works with relative air pressure as low as 1 bar, which fits some turbo charger. I searched the internet but sadly no one seems to go in that direction. I am aware that at 1 bar, the flow rate is not high and fluid particle is not very small, but it is cheap and is easy to install compared with traditional kit.
Back in the '90's there was a pumpless methanol kit called Anderson Mr. Freeze - if you google it, it may give you some ideas. These setups do work and have their own benefits.
@@AlexLTDLX Interesting, Mr. Freeze likely still exist. For my case, I prefer some DIY parts to commercial kit, if possible. No pump, no cable, no tank( using washer reservoir instead ) and some fun.
That's a pretty nifty tank. Wouldn't it get better pressure if it had a full diameter hose & fittings so the flow of pressure won't be compromised by the 3/8 hose sucking on it? It looks like a 1/4 vacuum line fitting & use it you could get the check valve and supply hose not not neck down it might flow more. If you even have an equivalent vacuum source of a second fitting you can hook it up where the nipple goes
Made a kit exactly like this 20 years ago. Will work mint. I used a spraying systems co. nozzle but very much the same principle. Never been a fan of meth systems with pumps, more points of failure. Super simple and win
I want to make it for an N/A engine just for MPG purpose, obviously not performance wise. Do you think it will work into an EFI car? It should get no vacuum at WOT and maximum vacuum at idle so I think would be ideal as I don't want to have it at idle, but... The heater control valve will work with positive pressure or not? I'm not an expert so I appreciate any advices. Thanks
Nice job. Real simple. REALLY it depends on where your planning on "injecting" the meth. I'm soon will be done with my kit. I have managed to do a complete HI pressure system for under $ 225.00 . All I gotta do is the buttons and drill and tap the port. I've posted a vid on part of my kit. Check it out if you have time.
It is. You do have an advantage with that setup - pulling fuel through the carbs and blower already helps to cool the charge down; as I'm sure you know. In that case, it'll give a little more power, but it would make your tuning window a lot bigger.
Because I want to do pre-compressor injection on a centrifugal compressor, I'll probably end up using a more conventional meth system (for better atomization) on the electric turbo. But this would've worked fine on the Whipple. In fact, I even drilled/tapped a boss for it; but well, as with most things race-car related, the plans changed and well, here we are :)
Who told you it "is not suggested?" We've been doing it for decades (google Anderson Mr. Freeze) - no damage or issues, ever. In fact, injecting pre-compressor leads to more boost usually because it "seals" the compressor a bit.
Wow this was really cool. I only have one question is the nozzle placed before or after the forced induction? The reason I ask is because im wondering when psi pushes the fluid throught the system, isnt the nozzle at the same psi? Does the pressure of the resevoir over come the pressure the nozzle sees?
WOw, I had this idea about a year ago. I still haven't put it to use yet. I've been heating up my hydrogen fuel cell solution and I realized the water vapor is important to boosting the power/spoofing the oxygen sensors which don't sense oxygen directly, they sense exhaust gas pressure (lean running conditions increase exhaust pressure). Using water to absorb the combustion heat (which produces steam which pushes the piston and cleans the carbon) is what I'm after. Cooler exhaust means the O2's see less pressure and cut the fuel trims for better mileage.
You got everything right accept o2 sensors actually sense the lack of oxygen..not pressure. If it was pressure it would be called a pressure sensor.... You read the oxygen content on o2, sensor 1 to tell your PCM if its lean/rich. The second o2 compares the oxygen content after the catalytic converter to judge of the catalytist is functional. Exhaust has very little "back pressure" Under 5psi avg. You actually don't want back pressure you want velocity. Velocity scavenged the cylinder's. Pressure doesn't
damnit, i just installed an electric solenoid to close off flow of my water at idle, ask me what happened prior to this........LOL had to change oil 3 times after that mistake.
I made a Venturi effect injection works at normal air-pressure using micro drip system best mix kerosene isopropanol so far, inject just before the throttle body it sucks the fluid right out of the bottle, you can experiment with different fluids, ammonia, hydrogen per oxide etc. white spirit
The concept here is pretty cool. I wonder if feeding boost pressure to the nitrous side of the fogger nozzle will help give a finer mist from the nozzle.
so this is a kit to spray before the supercharger? because I don't know how well it would work to spray after the a turbocharger since pressure on both sides of the snooze would be the same
Does this work? The issue i see is the nozzle and boost thru the tank would balance out in theory, like a fuel injector wouldn't squirt if it had more boost than fuel pressure
Hello. I want to ask you if it can be used onto a naturally aspirated engine in order to increase mpg and cleaning valves and piston? Not intended for performance uses but for hypermiling. Thanks
It's reliant on boost pressure to work. Without any boost there won't be any pressure to inject the meth. But I can tell you this, simply injecting water into a naturally aspirated motor that wasn't designed for it is actually going to hurt miles per gallon. I tested this back in the late 80s early 90s. You would see a small power gain from injecting methanol, but that would come largely from its heat of vaporization as well as the fact that you simply need more of it than gasoline along with the fact that methanol is classified as an oxygenated fuel. I think you'd gain more simply by tuning your car to run as lean as it will stand and then doing all the normal hyper-miling stuff like smooth spinners on the wheels thin tires smooth underbelly of the car low turbulence zones etc.
@@AlexLTDLX thank you for the explanation. Well at least I can use it for my 999cc "beast" supercharger project. I'm thinking of using calibrated 3d printer nozzles as alternative to expensive ones and see if they can work. They come from 0.8 to 0.2 millimeters I really like you other projects, I was thinking of making an electric supercharger too. Hope to see more developments and more boost in future. Thanks
@@AlexLTDLX I appreciate the explanation. But, for instance, I have two engines that are naturally aspirated, both have a high compression ratio and because of that are fighting back knock by retarding the spark (one is the 1mz-fe and the other is the yzf motor in my FZ1). If one were to inject a small amount of pure distilled water to reduce temperatures and increase the knock index, could increased power output, or at least less knock be achievable?
Lol. You're not the first person to miss the key point of making this work - you need to inject BEFORE the compressor. This isn't a new idea and it's been around in my world for at least 20 years; maybe more. Google "Anderson Mr. Freeze" to see what I'm talking about. It does work, and it works well. I'm just now on this electric turbo kick and no long need charge cooling...
Bro if you super cool your meth mix with ice or my idea a peltier device do you think it would increase performance? And what if you inject directly after the turbo ? Or what about since you run 3 injectors inject one before turbo one in volute and one post turbo?
With methanol being corrosive to aluminum. Do you recommend only doing this on engines without it? Have you seen damage done to engines with aluminum heads or other parts? Or does vaporized methanol have less of a corrosive effect?
Sorry for the delayed reply - the methanol is in contact so briefly and as you state, it's vaporized (or at least atomized) to the point where there's basically no negative effect on the engine. But for tubes and stuff that carry it, definitely no aluminum in the system.
I was thinking about this setup ever since my last comment about testing it. I was wondering if we connect the small diameter tube from the big soleniod to the intake manifold. While we connect the large diameter tube to a small pressurized tank at any pressure u want 100psi 80 psi or whatever for better atomization. I believe this would be better only problem u might face is the big solenoid opening due to the high pressure of the fluid or being unable to close for the same reason although its highly unlikely.
How do you release the pressure that’s in the tank after a pull? Seems like it would stay pressurized? Now that I think of it… I guess you don’t want it too so it’s pressurized for the next pull.
Sorry - been busy (bathroom remodel!) It's a part for I believe a heater diverter valve for a Ford of some sort. If you do an image search in Google for Anderson Mr. Freeze, you'll find a photo where you can make out the part number (that's what I did - this isn't a new idea, to be honest).
How does this pump into a pressurized intake tract? Think about it... If you're using boost pressure to move the liquid, but the same pressure is in the intake tract where it's supposed to spray, the pressure would be the same then wouldn't allow the fluid to move.
alex aren't you going to need a check valve on the nozzle to keep it from sucking your supply line empty when under vacuum? most systems have this. cant wait for results. nice to see your little helper involved. good luck!
That's what the Ford vacuum operated valve is for. It'll be easy enough to see if it's sucking in any meth while out of boost; but it would have to suck it past the closed valve. I could also put the fan spray nozzle right before the throttle blade - it'll never see any significant vacuum that way. We'll all find out together!
Unless you methanol injector is placed directly inside of the manifold your vehicle will not be able to pull meth out of the injector as anywhere on the intercooler piping u choose only See's positive pressure, ideally u would want your pressure in port to be pre intercooler and your injector to be in a charge pipe post Intercooler so the pressure side always See's higher boost then engine, constantly keeping meth flowing under boost regardless of wether or not your turbo dies off a little in the top end
So i was thinking of building a water injector for my non turbo diesel truck. I was thinking a window washer tank and pump with a window sprayer into my intake pipe and a switch under my gass pedal so it pumps water in when i floor it. Good idea or not?
You could try it. I don't have much experience with diesels; but back in the early '90's I experimented with water injection - didn't see any gains. But a diesel might be different.
Watch this video starting at 1:06 in: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-oXeUxONLO9I.html The nozzle's going into the block between the throttle body and the blower. I'll put up a video of the nozzle install.
I want to do this on my rear mount turbo setup, it’ll be convenient due to me just drilling some holes in the trunk floor. Will it mess with my maf and or electric throttle? Will the charge air get hot again due to turbo compression? Could I then remove the intercooler from my system?
I wouldn't run this on a rear-mounted turbo. Way too much piping for the meth to fall out of atomization and pool somewhere; and it would probably negatively impact your distribution too. Keep in mind that the compressed air travels insanely fast, so you might be ok, but personally I wouldn't do it. Not unless you can put O2 sensors (or at the very least, EGTs) on every cylinder. Sorry to be the bearer of a bad, well not news, but opinion, I guess.
That heater bypass valve stays open when not under vacuum right? It's only closed when seeing vacuum. How are you able to fill up the tank without getting a bunch of water/meth into the line and dripping into your air filter after that bypass valve?
@@williammac4288 That's a good idea if you can get away with only needing meth above 10 psi. Also, I'd imagine it would be tricky to tune for - you want to replace at least 20-25% of your fueling needs (30% might be better) with meth. But let us know how your system works out.
@@AlexLTDLX not using it to make power. And also only using water. It's more for reliability purposes to keep the IAT as cool as possible. Will be tuning without it. I decided to go with a 1psi cracking pressure.
Would you suggest meth for a street car ? Street car that I will drive to work everyday that the weather is nice and on the weekends. (If I cant then it will come back off because I have way to much fun in it.) It was NA but over the last few months I have cobbled together a turbo kit. I did it for basically nothing and with that means non intercooled. I dont know if it's going to work yet because it's only had idle time so far. Will be a few more weeks before I will have enough saved for the Micro Squirt. The car has always ran cool before and has a really good cooling system but I have my doubt's about it stayinh cool. It's only going to be around 8-9 psi. 93 pump gas but if it runs hot I may try e85 but there is only 1 gas station local that has it and like I said it's a driver. The engine is a .030 over 351 btw.
With a turbo kit, you have a little bit more flexibility. But I will say that after having pushed 93 octane gas for over 20 years, and having tried different types of race gas, the tuning window on 93 octane gets really small really fast. I've destroyed my fair share of pistons and Motors that way. So yes, I would recommend meth for a Street car. I run a megasquirt 3X and between the AFR safety setting, and the IAT correction map, it would be rather difficult to blow something up due to tuning issues. I can't say the same for the old EFI system I used to use which was admittedly very primitive by today's standards. It was actually programmed in DOS. But I would also consider a good air to air intercooler if you can swing it, keeping in mind that under most circumstances the air-to-air intercooler will function more like a heat sink because it will never reach equilibrium unless you're doing a pull that's minute or more long.
I daily drive a car with meth. It doesn't spary all the time only when above 4k rpm and wot and i also have a master switch i can shut it off. If you set it up and only tune for it at higher rpms then it will be fine and not use much unless you are getting on it between lights or freeway. My setup uses a pump btw.
I tried water injection alone way back in the day. Really wasn't worth the hassle - maybe a 1-2% improvement, and that's assuming you can't get to optimum timing due to detonation. Spraying pure methanol, on the other hand, is much more of an improvement. It's oxygen bearing, cools the intake charge and effectively increases octane. There are a bunch of videos on youtube dyno testing water/meth injection. Pure methanol always wins. As far as this particular setup, it's actually pretty old school. Google "Anderson Mr. Freeze meth injection" - we used to run those on fox bodies back before we could tune the EEC IV computer. Heck, I originally saw the idea before that when a friend (who was an engineer at Eaton in the supercharger division and eventually became president of Magnuson, and now is enjoying early retirement) put two M90 Eaton blowers on a Turbocoupe with a 351W engine in it - a google image search still finds Mike's car. FWIW, the Mr. Freeze setup used the exact same vacuum valve I did.
@@AlexLTDLX unfortunately that reduces the efficiency because the intercooler then is after it and it relies on ambient temperature. its still the best to let the intercooler cool as much as it can and then cool further down with water. but still a simple and cheap way, never heard of it....
@@paki8000 This idea's been around for a long time (google "Anderson Mr. Freeze") and people seem to be going back to injecting pre-turbo. There are pros and cons to both - in this case, simplicity (lack of failure points and no electronics), and perhaps the biggest one - increased compressor efficiency. The meth helps seal the compressor. I have an A/W intercooler so don't need much in the way of additional cooling (though how much "real" cooling occurs in after-compressor injection is debatable - mostly, the IAT sensor just gets wet and reads artificially low temps as the meth/water evaporates off the sensor.)
Yes. As long as you are willing to spray before the turbo, it will work. I have heard of people doing this, although I am concerned what that might do to the turbo. I'm not sure how effective it would be in cooling a charge as it would just heat up with the rest of the hot compressed air. Thanks for your response. Good luck on your dyno tests.
That's an Induction Solutions stainless nitrous nozzle. It was around $40. I went with stainless because methanol is corrosive. You don't want any aluminum in a methanol system.
I actually didn't install it - I've switched over to developing an electric turbo that actually works and it's so efficient that at the 650hp level it doesn't need any charge cooling: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-AOL3Qyczt3Y.html That said, I wouldn't inject water, but straight methanol. And you want at least 20- 30% of your total fuel requirements met by the meth. In my case, when I was running the whipple, I was seeing about 82% duty cycle on 80lb injectors - that's about 525 lbs of fuel per hour, or roughly 85 gallons per hour. That's about 3 ounces of fuel per second - so I'd be shoving over half an ounce of meth per second, or 36 ounces per minute or over a quarter of a gallon per minute. BTW, this isn't a new idea. Google "Anderson Mr. Freeze methanol injection" - it was made the same way.
Thanks...great video....I’m curious if you’re willing to share how you bracketed/installed the blower. I just happen to have one of a 2013 Shelby that fell in my lap for free....brand new. I would like to put it on my 351 in my fox... I have modeled up the blower to intake flange and had pieces waterjetted for that but am still “thinking” about the brackets and belt system.
Thanks. I chronicled the whole build here: forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/2021529-dart-365-na-vs-whipple.html I should've put it up on youtube instead, but it is what it is. HTH.
Nice mechanical concept, if only it worked !!! So boost pressure (some odd 15 psi) used to push water into the manifold which is also boost pressure???, so pressure difference is negligible ie there will be almost no flow and for sure no “atomisation” if you connect the system up in you car. It almost works in your backyard because the other side of the nozzle is at atmospheric pressure so there is a fair pressure difference (15 psi gauge I assume) , so not sure about your “math”. let me know if I’m wrong but doubt it , Please if you did find it doesn’t work delete, or highlight this on the Video so people don’t waste their time. Thanks
I think you missed the point. It injects before boost. In the case of a Whipple (which I designed it for), injecting between the throttle body and the blower works fine. The pressure there is atmospheric, or maybe a little less; the Whipple is pullied for 15 psi - so meth is injected into the blower's rotors at 15 psi. In the case of a turbo or centrifugal compressor, you inject right into the compressor wheel - not after. As you point out, it wouldn't work after. This isn't a new idea; google "Anderson Mr. Freeze" - we've been injecting meth like this since at least the early 90's.
So would this work on a turbo setup injecting post turbo? If you are running 15 psi to pressure the tank and the charge pipes are 15 psi will the water still flow? Seems like it would only work pre turbo . Or for a blower.
@@AlexLTDLX I'm not knocking your setup at all. I think it's great that it works for your setup. But it can be a little misleading for someone who just wants to throw together a kit. I pieced together a kit post turbo. I didn't want to go pre turbo because I wasn't sure about water accumulating in the intercooler with my setup. Plus I wanted something to work in conjunction with my boost controller as far as controlling it.
@@JustGetToWork Well, you could ditch the intercooler and just run meth. But I don't think it's misleading - pre- and post- compressor injection systems are both valid systems. In fact, pre-compressor injection is the only one that can work on all setups - not the other way around. Most positive displacement setups don't have enough room to inject post compressor (mine is, of course, an exception, but this setup should be more reliable than a pump-type setup). As far as your concern about meth pooling in the cooler, don't discount how much air is actually moving through the system or how finely atomized the meth will be after going through the turbo when it's spinning at 100,000+ rpm. Unless you have boxy end tanks with poor flow and dead spots, I don't think meth pooling in the intercooler is an issue. And if it does, where it pools is a dead spot and should be addressed for maximum efficiency. There's only one way to find out - try it! Just don't tune on the ragged edge and do some testing. I know of plenty of hi-po turbo setups that inject pre-compressor and they work just fine. Good luck and thanks for the comment!
@@AlexLTDLX when I said miss leading I basically meant someone looking to build this kit may not know where to place the nozzel since most kits on the market can run pre or post. It's definitely informative! I wouldn't have wasted my time commenting if it didn't interest me. Thanks for the replies. I'm sub'd.
@@JustGetToWork Thanks, Justin. And I was sincere - it's easy enough to build and try it out. Just tune it so it's not reliant on the meth to stay out of detonation, drive it around a bit, and see if any meth pools in the intercooler. Only one way to find out for sure. If you do it, I'd love to know what you find!
As long as you inject pre turbo it should work well. In fact, diesels tend to run high boost so it should conceivably work even better on a diesel. I don't know too much about them, but I do hear propane injection is a big thing too.
Since starting on the electric Vortech thing, it's just been sitting in a box. I may put it on if the electric Vortech ultimately generates enough boost to justify it.
That's a fair question. Aside from being a full-time single dad and taking care of my elderly dad, we've started two drag racing shows on top of my regular work; time has been scarce. I will get this thing together as soon as I can. You can check out the shows here: www.alloutlive.com - under the "home" tab, click on "the goal" - that's me on the right side of the picture.
I was going to delete this, but I'm going to leave it up. I didn't fail - you just didn't pay attention or don't understand what was presented. The car has (had; still have it, but it's off the car right now) a Whipple. The throttle body on a positive displacement blower is before the blower. Where there's no boost. So, in a word, you're wrong. Look up "Anderson Mr. Freeze" - people have been doing this for years; myself and my friends included. I simply don't need it for the electric supercharger project - not enough boost. But it would work there too, provided I inject pre-compressor.
