You know what I didn't even think about that but yes explains alot as I wondered what Alicent did to Helaena as yes she was always crying an as a young girl she didn't want her to touch her
Helaena is the most tragic character. Seeing the future, unable to understand it, doomed to a fate that is completely doomed. But shes a loving, good person herself. Tragic that the one wholly good person in this conflict is fated for such a horrid fate. Martin can be a real bastard.
Funny that Alicent consents to the marriage of her son and daughter, but was disgusted by Rhanerya and Daemon, “you Targaryens have queer customs..” I would argue siblings marrying is far more morally corrupt than niece and uncle.
That's probably the whole point. She's a hypocrite doing everything for power. She obeys the rules why Rhaenyra doesn't and still both have a claim. But she isn't innocent, either. They're all in that game.
That's not the point lol. When you see this shows you need to get into the mindset of these cultures. Marriage inside family is not the problem. Is that Rhae had sex before marriage, which makes her less precious and takes out her prestige as a woman. You really need to learn to read their values and morals
It shows what a hypocrite she is while proclaiming how innocent she is like how she and so many others say “she follows the rules” really? Like how Cole is still employed and wasn’t executed or sent to the Wall and same for Larys (and I still say she said what she said to Larys after 10 yrs of getting close to him too to get him to do something in order for Otto to get back) they want to show her hypocrisy and self righteousness especially when it comes to how she treats Rhaenyra like about “the lie” even though she never had the right to ask her anything nor did Rhaenyra lie about Daemon the green eyed monster of jealousy blew it out of proportion and the writers and even actresses who play Alicent said that
@@lucasopercoup1458 it's hard not project our 21st century views on characters living in a patriarchal medieval society but you are right. It seems people forget that based on in-world values, Alicent is the more "upright" of the two. That doesn't mean she isn't a hypocrite though 😂🤣
Eh... I preferred the sweet and kind-hearted girl she was in the books. She somehow reminds me of Jaehaera on the show. I'm pretty sure Helaena was someone meek, soft and flower-like. This version does act like some sort of... person with mental deficiencies.
@@cherylbaxter8986 the archetyp of the prophet that is not believed but despised for their gift. She was a princess of troy during the famous war. Apollo desired her and gave her the gift of prophecies as a courting gift, but she did not return his interest so he cursed her for the rejection. She would only ever see the worst and no one she ever tried to warn would belive her. She could have prevented the war, she could have saved the city but no one listened.
Knowing what's coming for poor Helaena the mom in me just wants to hug her, give her all the bugs her little heart desires and protect her from all the bad in the world. She sees enough in her dreams.
I like that you pointed out Alicent's view on not understanding her daughter and chalking it up to the idea of her being another mad Targaryen. It makes the scene more relatable and less reason to blame Alicent for being a bit bored or impatient with her instead of seeing her as bad mother.
Dude, I like Helaena. I hope HOTD explores this character more. Besides most Entomologist I know are a little weird. Plus I l dig the whole witch thing. She would be a very cool character to explore.
Note that in Helena's box of bugs, there are *eight* of them. My guess is that the first set of three represents Pyke, the North, and the Eyrie, the second set of two represents the Riverlands and the Crownlands (the insect with wings representing the Crownlands), and the final set of three represents the Westerlands, the Reach, and Dorne (the scorpion representing Dorne).
@@iremainteague5653 The first thing I noticed was the scorpion in the third box partition(an insect commonly associated with Dorne) and the winged insect in the second partition (dragons have wings).
@@petebondurant58 I left them out; my bad. Including them would absolutely correct, as there are eight bugs in the box. Although it should be noted that my conjecture assumes that Helena’s dragondream left out the part of Westeros north of the wall.
LOVE Otto's proud grin when Alicent is actually apologizing for uh *checks notes* trying to stab a child. Otto should not be proud of that, but it is hilarious that he is
After watching your other videos that "curious" transition from Helaena to Larys .. just as Larys sort of adjusted himself and grabbed his walking stick .. made me think that Larys had been warging the spider and the connection broke when she closed the shell. My theory is that Larys is the one who understands Helaena's "gift" and he's using his "gift" to listen in on what she's saying. Extra Points - could Larys' game plan been an infatuation with Helaena like Littlefinger with Sansa ... creepy uber Greenseer kids ....
@@candydandy2694 Thats an amazing idea. This Greenseer and Dreamer playing games with each other. Maybe thats why larys was smiling...The whole dragons of thread poem... *She was telling it to Larys*
Helena is trying to figure out the firefly. She's probably never seen one before being locked up in the keep all the time, but I bet she sees it on Larys' cane.
I HAVE TWO UNHINGED THEORIES WITH NO EVIDENCE -- but I feel like this is the place to let 'em fly: 1- I suspect the first (and only) person to really listen to Helaena will be Aemond. He definitely *likes likes* her. It's beyond duty, Aemond doesn't seem the Ned-Stark type. (I suspect it's the same with Daemon's feelings towards Rhaenyra.) 2- The cut from Helaena trapping the spider to Larys Strong - it's as if Larys is proud he's trapped Alicent in his web of lies - and I suspect something Helaena dreams/does that, in return, traps him in his own cage in the future.
@@fadillangston9797 I’m reading it now. I’m at “The Dying of the Dragons” right now. I know abt some events coming - like Blood and cheese - but not everything. Will by the end of the day tho!
I legitimately love all of the changes they've made to the Greens. They've gone from pretty one-note characters in F&B to really unique and interesting individuals. The two I feel that the most with are Alicent and Helaena! I'd made a video discussing her dragon dreams last week, it's incredibly cool that they added this detail to her character. Could end up being an advantage for the Greens if somebody realizes that her dreams come true!
I think the irony is that I was looking forward to Daemon's performance the most, but Alicent and Helaena (I can't wait to see what they do with Aemond) stood out.
Interesting to me: viewers (rightfully) lost their minds over the epic way Aemond claimed Vhagar in E7...but the fact that Halena claimed Dreamfyre, as opposed to her dragon being a hatchling from an egg she was presented with, has been omitted. I completely can understand why it wasn't included for reasons of runtime and brevity. I'm really curious how that went down, did she know from a vision that she would be successful? I believe she was supposed to be pretty young when she claimed Dreamfyre, it does make me wonder how long she's had her Sight, and how long she's known it was reliable info.
I'm betting knowing dreamfyre and Helaena, it went down very different from Vhagar trying to kill Aemond. In the books, Helaena loves flying dreamfyre and they are extremely close.
The problem with Vhagar getting claimed is that it was extremely insensitive given that this was at Laena’s funeral. And then he was a dick afterwards.
As for the firefly sigil, I believe the reason why Larys uses the firefly sigil is because he can “see” in the so-called dark- when others cannot. Meaning that he has the uncanny ability to be able to see beyond the veil and see what others are unable to see. He’s able to “see” in a darkened room without being noticed. Larys is able to “enlighten” himself regarding any knowledge of anything or anyone with whom he so pleases regarding his gift. I also believe it may have some importance in that it could be construed as him being able to “light up” very important events and having the ability to change the course of what happens in those events. He’s a master manipulator, and him being able to have the power to steer the course of time and the outcomes must be incredibly intoxicating to him. And that firefly represents that. In my opinion.✨
my theory on the firefly is still that it's based on a common real world medieval misconception that eyesight is something that eyes radiate like light, rather than just passive light absorption. as such, a firefly, being the animal best known for emitting light, would make sense to symbolise larys seeing through animals.
I would like to point out there could be a double meaning to the word loom. Besides being a machine for making fabric, loom means to take shape as an impending occurrence.
BOOK SPOILERS I think Halaena does not know she is a dreamer since she is so calm now, but goes mad with grief after the death of her son. I also wonder if the reason she choose Maelor to die was because she saw a vision of him dying, but not Jahaerys, so she figured if she choose Jahaerys to die she would eventually loose both of them.
@@JoeMagician I’m sorry! I’m rewatching now and it’s clear I was jumping to conclusions. In my defense, the only one I have, lol, you are really good at explaining how her family feels about her😅
I think the reason Larys uses fireflies is for a couple reasons. Firstly, he needs his henchmen to tell each other apart. I’m sure we’ll see a scene later in the series where he has a firefly person taking charge or receiving a message. Varys called his spies “little birds.” What was Littlefinger’s personal made sigil? Some mincing bird? It’s also that fireflies light up to communicate. Only the males light up. You could be in a swarm of fireflies and never know unless enough makes decided to light up. Larys makes it a point to only be seen or noticed when he wants to. Also fireflies light things, and the Hightowers “light the way.” So those simple references could be is useful. Apparently the Hightowers use their lighthouse to communicate to their Bannerman. Like using green to signify war. Those are just my ideas.
If Larys is a greenseer, then there is reason to believe that he well could know where Aemond's story is heading. Even if he did not see a vision of Aemond claiming Vhagar, he could have realized that this funeral was an opportune moment for it and that Aemond eventually would ride her.
Larys plucked a flower in front of Alicent. What if he hopes the "returned favor" is some sort of involvement with her daughter, Helaena, who he KNOWS is a dreamer? He cannot ask for her hand in marriage, as she's betrothed to her brother, but he is now Lord of Harrenhal, and---as the last Strong---should be positioning himself for a worthy marriage at some point. Though that doesn't seem to be his current intent. But obviously Homie's got shit up his sleeves he's not telling Alicent. BOOK SPOILERS: ... ... ... If he does not ultimately get what he wants, perhaps it is Larys' hand that nudges Helaena off that tower.
Something I noticed on a second viewing.. when Rhaenyra is with Daemon in the city, the fortune teller asks her if she wants to know how she dies, then alludes to it very briefly. Thought that was pretty clever and sneaky
I personally don't think Halaena really knows her dreams will come true for certain. Because I don't think she'd be so calm and sane if so. But I'm guessing no has every even spoken of dragon dreams to her. If she and Viserys spoke more often and he was more invested in them, I'm sure viserys would figure it out. But tragically, no.
Viserys might know about Halaena, remember he has dragon dreams too. I also think it's possible that different Targaryens have dragon dreams at different frequencies. With Daeron the drunkard and Halaena having them in high frequencies. I also think the Mad King had dragon dreams as well
I have noticed that the Hightower family shadows the Lannisters. Otto and Tywin served 2 kings as their hands, but felt that they didn't get the share of respect they thought they deserved. So they groomed their daughters into being ruthless Queens. Cersei knew that her children were going to die because of the prophecy she heard as a child, Alicent didn't get such a prophecy, but believed Otto, so felt the same thing. And Helaena shadows Myrcella, both were kind and innocent souls who were trapped in their family's ugly politics and suffered greatly because of it.
i like how we can all theorise together since fire and blood was written by the unrelyable narrator of maesters so book readers while knowing main points can still theorise on how those points come to be theyre kinda like dragon dreamers if you think about it
Reminds me of Cassandra the priestess from greek mythology. She also spoke her prophecies in rambles, more so than Halaena of course because she was cursed lol.
I can't ever figure out what she's saying. Now, you made that make so much sense, & yes it sounds like exactly what's brewing!! I'm still stumped what she said at the dinner in episode 8, excited to hear your opinion of that!! I'm definitely subscribing I really enjoy your Content!! Being a big Ser Hunts fan, since GOT, I have to admit I like your ideas/synopsis LOTS!! 🏠🐲
I don’t understand why Otto was named hand of the king again esp after the way he was fired like the king is aware of his motives and that he will do whatever it takes to put ageon on the throne…but he re-hires him anyway? The king is so weak
I agree! The same way I don't understand how Leana and Deamon were allowed to marry. Can't imagine Viserys would have been thrilled about that, nor Corlys who would have wanted someone with a better station in life, like the Bravosi dude her talked about back in the day. I mean Daemon has nothing that improves the strength of House Velaryon, given his estrangement from the family, and the marriage gains nothing for House Targaryen that they don't already have given Leanor and Rhaes marriage. Seems odd to me, though it might be explained in the books (which I haven't read) it should still stand alone in the show though.
Otto seems to love her. He was very supportive on the last episode when she stood up and made her little weird toast. And when she was dancing with Jacaerys Velaryon, he seemed to be happy to see her dance. That made me hate the man less.
@@JoeMagician Yes, I really do! I can that you put a lot of thought and dedication into these video and that they are your passion! It is great to listen to the lore and the theories surrounding them! Helaena is my favorite character and I am happy that you made a video for her!!
I think another important point about Heleana is her disposition, especially when she makes these predictions. Like you said, it’s very dreamlike but also very casual, almost too casual. Unlike many other dreamers in the Targaryen line who become overwhelmed by their dreams, or moved to do considerable actions to fulfill or prevent them, she seems like she’s just going with the flow. She is the only child, besides Joffrey (who is a baby), to not have gotten into conflict or show ill will towards Rhaenyra’s children, of course there is something to be said about gender roles restricting that somewhat, but it’s hard to imagine her attacking her nephews or half-sister, with words or wounds. Well, at least thus far… Really though, so far it’s almost like she’s the kid in class that knows all the answers but never participates.
Some people are saying that the comment about the last ring segment of the myriapod having no legs is a reference to either Bran or her brother ("ring" is homophonous with "king"). But there are between twenty and thirty rulers of the Seven Kingdoms, depending on definition. She mentions sixty segments, possibly excluding the head and the last caudal one, which is off by a factor of 2 or 3 if we are supposed to equate each segment with a king (let alone two - if we are instead doing so by pairs of legs). I also do not think that the tally is correct for how many Targs there ever were after the Conquest - and Idk why Bran would be counted in their number. So, sadly, I do not think that this theory holds up, unless it really is just about the last segment and last king.
Well done and made me smile throughout. I never read any of the books about this universe and strictly enjoy both series as TV events. Please keep the snarky comments comimg
Always love your vids!!! How I saw what Helaena said dragons of flesh is obvious weaving dragons of thread meaning not strong ones fake dragons aka allies to their cause and the hand turns the loom is the one making them making the Allie’s the fake “dragons” that will be on their side
Definitely one of the most interesting characters and a very good example of adaptation adding to the book material. As she is portrayed as the weird but smart kid no one understands and definitely on the spectrum, I do wish we get to see more of her, how she interacts with people (or lack there of? She seems very lonely), is she socially awkward or could she at least keep a normal conversation going etc, got me very curious of her on a character level. Although it seems they are mystifying her making her the prophet type character of this series, a bit like Quaithe in ASOIAF or kinda the crazy witch archetype. Very curious to see more of her and what prophercies of hers will come out and go under people's noses
There was some indication in GOT that Bran the Three Eyed Raven may have been the cause of the Mad King’s hearing voices. I wonder if Bran is the source of all “Dreamers.”
I really wonder if they're going to go all the way to Jahaera and Aegon III's union, because Jahaera is an oddball herself. Also, Alicent's mental state at that point would be uh interesting to witness on-screen lol...
Maybe the firefly is a metaphorical calling card since he killed his father and brother with fire? Basically taunting people with what he can do and get away with it.
Larys is employing the classic mutual blackmail technique that many cults use to keep members trapped and compliant. When people have mutual dirt on each other, it gets much harder to betray each other. However, Larys in this case probably has more power, since he knows Alicent is a lot more afraid of people finding out their dark secrets than he himself is. Considering both that and that she is in such a position of power, Larys likely couldn't have picked a better person to ensnare.
I believe Larys is a warg. But a green seer is more than merely a warg even though wargs are rare to begin with. I'm not convinced he's a green seer though
Alicent isnt a dragonrider so she doesnt have any dragons to lay eggs to give to her children. Rhaenys is a dragon rider and Seasmoke is probably one of her dragons eggs. Baela and Rhaena wouldve received their dragon eggs from Rhaenys. Rhaenyras dragon laid eggs and she gave dragon eggs to her children. Shw even offered Aemond an egg out of goodwill but Alicent is a salty bih.
@@jeringatai3156 of course shes not as she is not blood of the dragon she's an Andal. according to the source material Aegon got a dragon egg it never hatch, he had to choose sunfyre. Deamon other daughter has issues hatching her dragon egg. It has nothing to do with just being a dragon rider. As being a dragon rider alone won't hatch egg. Aegon is a dragon rider and a dragon but he's no dragon, where as his old half sister is a dragon rider, a dragon, and a dragon. It's obvious the author was using the ability to hatching dragon eggs to alluded to the blood of the dragon and the im legitimate heir/s I'm trying not give spoilers because it's obvious what two events contributed to the decline/death of dragons and that is one of the main points of this part of the story.
@@whisky_icarus8731 But Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffrey’s dragon eggs hatched in their cribs and they’re not full Targaryen either, they’re Strong bastards. Also Daemon’s two older daughters are more Targaryen than any of the current kids, as their mother was half Targ herself.
@@angeezusRhaenyra Targaryen is their mother and she is a dragon and blood of the dragon. again It's obvious the author was using the ability to hatching dragon eggs to alluded to the blood of the dragon and who the legitimate heir/s are. As i stated before, It's also obvious what two events really contributed to the decline/death of dragons and that is one of the main points of this part of the story.
Darn, if she can see the future, that means she knows or will know in advance someday what happens to her children and the choice she'll be forced to make. Which makes the circumstances around her death even more curious.
Dragon Dreams are f-ing because there could be a thousand different answers for what they could mean, and until the event happens that when the dragon dream starts to make sense.