Ah, new and improved! So, K’rul isn’t so much cruel as just K’rolling with it. Once again, I appreciate the nuance you have added to my view of these characters - thanks, A.P.!
If it means anything AP, you making a mistake makes me feel a lot better about misunderstanding certain things as I read the series! Great video as always. The sheer epic-ness of the MoI prologue hit me right away, and it gave it such a mythic feel (especially the second half of it).
These are complex books with lots of detail, so the fact that I haven't made such a huge mistake thus far was a miracle. I make mistakes all the time, but hopefully they are only little ones. This was just absolutely huge... I hang my head in shame. Hair shirt is on order... Glad you enjoyed the video. It is a brilliant prologue, and the book is fantastic.
Oh great, it's nice to see you having fun about the fact that there were some errors in the previous video. I was talking to my boyfriend earlier about this and about your relaxed attitude about the knowledge about these books, and about it being ok not to know exactly every single detail and every little thing, and I think that attitudes like this one discourage gatekeeping and hopefully help people understand that loving these books and knowing them doesn't have to be a competition. I apologize if this is not the case :) Thanks for the insight and the analysis! K'rul / cruel - nice one, I failed to see this until now. Kallor is a fascinating and very complex character, I'm glad to see him discussed in this video and hopefully in more to come.The folkloric / legend aspect of this prologue was there all along but I didn't see it before. My next read will be so much better with all these details I learn from you. I hope that at some point you decide to discuss the Anomandaris poem :) I see the Willful Child coming closer to the camera...will we see you discussing the trilogy? That'd be fun! And even if it's pretty far away and I can only see an St and R, I know it to be Rejoice, a Knife to the Heart and I'd love to see that book being discussed too, as I find it thought provoking and very beautiful. Oh and do I see a little Deadpool there above GotM? P.S. - "Draconus is too busy polishing his sword" hahahah, good one, good one!
Hi Rox, I am as far from a gatekeeper as you can get. I am a geeky nerd who loves stories. I hope that my videos come across as sharing my love of stories and the different ways we can approach them. I am a reader and a fan like everyone else. Rejoice is on the list, and I will get around to it. And yes, that is a tiny Deadpool. 😊
@@ACriticalDragon I can see that you are quite the opposite of gatekeeping, and your love for books, and for these books can be felt in every video you make, that's why I keep on saying we're lucky to have you :) Thrilling news about Rejoice, can't wait for the video(s) :) Deadpool there is adorable, although I'm sure he'd not agree with my word choice :)
Kallor doesn't just say yeah I did it, it's my empire I can do what I want. he says that he did it cos he knew the Elder Gods were coming and he wasn't gonna let them take his slaves away. so even if he's not bluffing as you suggest, then the Elder Gods provoked him to that action (I'm not suggesting he's justified, but rather that, if Kallor's claim is to be believed, without the interference of the Elder God, he'd have continued to rule as a tyrant over his slaves, rather than slaughter them).
Who describes them as slaves though? Kallor is the absolute ruler of his kingdom and it is K'rul that claims they are slaves. But if they are slaves in a worse position than under a Jaghut Tyrant who literally mind controlled people as K'rul suggests, how did the summoners have the free will to summon the Crippled God? Kallor is not described as having any magic, so how did he do it? Kallor claims he wiped everyone out, but as a commentator on the other version suggested Kallor appears to be personifying hubris... Which would fit with the Greek legend element. Plus, this appears to be the conflation of different origin stories into one myth, so it doesn't have to make literal sense. So there are a wide variety of ways to read it. A lot of information is missing. The narration is clearly unreliable. The pov is biased. And there are obvious inconsistencies being highlighted in the narrative. So I think that we can hold multiple, mutually exclusive readings at the same time.
You saying "maiden, mother and crone" just lead me to a revelation: SIlvefox, Kilava and the Mhybe - maiden, mother and crone. With the Mhybe probably being all three of them at once. Same theme, different layers and meanings and angles of seeing things. And the detail of K'rul being dark, cold and pragmatic, feeding on the blood of the survivors. While I agree with dark and pragmatic, I see him acting in a passional manner rather than a cold one. What Kallor had just done awakened anger and fury in all three elder gods. And those are emotions I tend to associate with passionate fire rather than coldness. The way I see it, the fire of his anger is tainting the people near him, driving them mad enough to kill each other, resulting in empowering K'rul even further, rather than a cold, intentional act on his part. Perhaps similar in a way to the way Anomander usually dampens the effects of Dragnipur so people don't feel crushed by its presence, yet that particualr night in Darujhistan he chose not to and we got to see its full might. For once, K'rul was consumed enough by his intent that he didn't care what his presence was doing to the mortals, especially since it was giving him more power. Obviously, both versions are equally valid. I was only presenting an alternative view of the scene. It is quite possible that K'rul and the others feared Kallor's ascension, because he was cruel to the core and they decided to stop him before it's too late. But jealous of his power? I am not sure of that. All the elder gods are shown later in the books as never having demanded to be worshiped by the spilling of blood. Mael hated it. K'rul hated it. Draconus hid his true nature from his worshipers by hiding behind Mother Dark. Erastas, despite his many flaws, chose to walk among humans in an attempt to teach them not to spill blood in his name and they hated him for it. K'rul opened his veins and gave access to magic to all in order to attain a sense of equality. And that this deed weakend him enough to need protection for all eternity. That's not the gesture of one who craves power and is jealous of new comers. SHould they have done something about Kallor sooner? Probably. Is it the duty of gods to save humanity from its own evils? I don't know. Mael was telling Tehol at some point that he saw species after species come to rise and they all end the same. Why should he think of humans as any different? Why should any of them interfere?
One would almost think that I specifically mentioned the three together... :) Also Crone figures into this as well. You could refigure it as Crone (crone), Mybhe (mother), and Kilava (maiden). That is a pretty interesting reading of K'rul. One big thing about this particular prologue is that the narrator may have certain feelings about those particular Gods and be describing them negatively... which might also explain the partial ambivalence to Kallor. :)
Thanks you for the effort to let us enjoy your prologue analysis of MoI just a bit longer :D. I actually think it's an interesting part of book discussions to discover a previous perception you had to be different (even factually wrong) . With the complexity of Malazan I probably have hundreds of these misconceptions, but it is always interesting to hear your train of thought!
I am glad my train wreck video can be useful. 😅😅😅 But you are absolutely right that the discussion about books, about different perspectives, and the ability to re-evaluate information and form new opinions is a great joy.
" Sister of cold nights says, chillingly" You've spent too much time with the Malazan brothers 🤣 I see what you did there. For what's worth, I think people should watch both versions of the video, AP. The way in which you pin down the inaccuracy and correct it is very instructive.
Hi Niflrog, one of the best ways to learn is to make a massive public mistake... and then have to try to fix it... But it is a complicated book, and attention to detail escapes all of us at times. Thanks for not making fun of me :)
Late to the party here. Fantastic video (I'll skip the old one then ;)). I've recently begun to break this 2nd prologue down visually, storyboards mainly but some 3d build, and so I have read through this quite a few times now and honestly AP, I got super muddled between the continents too. Erikson never actually describes the 'crossing' as it were (or would be if it were literal) of the continets and so it does all blend into one. On top of that I have noticed that some ofthe Korelri stuff (TCG stuff) etc , is told peppered throughout the section where K'rul is clearly described as having arrived at the Jakaruku shoreline. I feels like him recalling that journey through the TCG stuf at that point, and so its even more jumbled up. For example he witnessed the maggots come from the corpses, but the crows are described as still following him on the shore Jak. So again it blends. As you say the whole thing feels like a mythic retelling rather than lteral because no matter how much of a goose Kalor may or may not be, building a mountain of bones and then dragging a throne up there is just too much of a D move ;) But its a perfect metaphor for what he has (or not) done. I've read some great theories about how he may have incenerated Jak using Naruk tech, since there are some clues throughout the books. Anyway cheers.
Oddly enough, some of the information in the old version is actually accurate... I may have to revisit to do a proper breakdown. But given that the continent was scorched, and given that the style is of a mythic 'morality' play, replete with symbolic language, a literal explanation is likely to be highly dissatisfying and significantly misleading. But speculation and different theories are always interesting. Erikson and Esslemont discuss this a little bit in a video discussion that Philip and I had with them (which will be up soon). But, in essence, when the CG arrived, it was more like a meteor shower across a broad swathe of the world than a singular strike. Hence the presence of shards found in multiple locations, some larger than others.
Hey so I just read this prologue for the podcast and I already listened to your video earlier and am listening to this one now at work. I'm only 15 minutes in so maybe you address this later but while K'rul doesn't weep for the blood trail in his wake, he also isn't upset when he feels the twilight of his worship begin at the end of the prologue. So maybe that says something about his being perhaps subconsciously relieved by the imminent future where blood will no longer need to be spilled to fuel his worship and power? Maybe not, I confess to liking K'rul a bit so this could be a rose colored glasses thing.
He is basically described as pragmatic, so from this Prologue perspective it would make sense that he just accepts it as there is no point in being angry.
Is it? Or maybe if we add the fact K'rul just used his blood in a difrent ritual as we do know later in the story so maybe the pragmatism here is K'rul acceptance of the blood power around him to strength himself before going against Kallor?!
You forgot to add the 'maxima' to 'culpa', A.P. ... ;-) Thanks for this! My copy of MoI is in a box at the moment, so I didn't notice the mistake. Even when you're wrong, you're coherent... A dangerous quality. You should be a politician.
Ohhh, I completely missed the extended birth metaphor. From your mistake, my revelation! Thanks AP! (You know, for both the insight and the bizzarre images foisted upon my imagination!)
whooops. I really seem to be making a mess of things lately. I remembered the scene when Ganoes speaks to him in Dragnipur and automatically assumed that we knew it was Draconus... damn. Sorry.
I was reminded a lot ofnthe scene in Watchmen where Dr. Manhattan scolds the Comedian for killing a woman. And the Comedian replies he could have stopped him at any time but didn't.
Hi Eric (not Rob) that was exactly the scene I was thinking of at the time. Get out of my head... Or start paying rent... Actually, the rent money would be handy... Send money... Or coffee... 🤣 🤣 🤣
@@ACriticalDragon first rob and now you think I am Alia... But my mind might be a scary place right now. Moid seemed to like it so I picked up Shadow of the Torturer for some light post Malazan reading...
Wow, I had never considered how the joining of events here inspires them to be read more as myth rather than history. This type of analysis certainly makes me appreciate the Malazan world. Your analysis is also inspiring me to pay closer attention to these types of details. Unless it's somewhat explicit in a fantasy novel, if I'm reading about a made-up world with a made-up history, I don't really ever consider the possibility that events like this one are not meant to be taken at face value. There is always something hidden beneath the surface with Erikson, haha. That he allows us to witness this through a character's POV is just a brilliant way to further add to the complexities of this moment as well. Great writing with some great analysis Thanks for sharing this. Can't wait for the House of Chains prologue!
Hi Christian, Yup. But that is beyond the Prologue. 😂 😂 Plus there is plenty of information about Kallor in other books as well. And if I do a Kallor video it will reference a lot more than just this Prologue.
@@ACriticalDragon you just made me question everything I thought I knew about Kallor so when I saw evidence that yeah maybe he did done do it later in the book I came back! It shows your videos are thought-provoking and challenge people's understanding of the work. That is good!
@@ACriticalDragon it'll be a couple years since I'm going noob through the podcast. but I can't wait! one of the first places I'll go after The Crippled God is this channel
@@ACriticalDragon I think is not related about the accuracy of the information discussed in your analysis, is that you managed to deliver the information in better structured manner and the small difference in the approach had better reach to me, made me pay more attention or understood your point easier that the first time. What you exactly did: something worked internally in accordance to your intention of right a mistake so your mind did the necessary adjustments to do it better and better you did. I think that's it.
But it doesn't say where the pieces land in this Prologue. There is an implication that it was both Korelri and Jackuruku, but it only states Korelri... I think that on balance it was probably both. So I agree with you.
Well now we know why Pannion really had mother issues. Seriously though, well half-seriously, I always pictured the Rent as vulvic. I was even certain there was a description that was fairly anatomically evocative, though I didn't catch it on a reread. Maybe I was just fixated on it, or maybe someone else knows of such a passage. Note too, Toc awakens at Morn, and his eye scar mirrors the Rent. And he too journeys into the embrace of the terrible mother...
:) 'Maybe I was just fixated on it'... emmmmm have you read Freud? Just kidding. The exploration of motherhood and the relationship between mother and child is a fascinating set of threads in this book. Particularly when you consider that this is arguably epic fantasy and such a topic is not necessarily a staple of the subgenre.
@@ACriticalDragon well, we've all got one. A mother, that is. Even Kallor, presumably. That's the prequel I want to read...baby Kallor setting his mum's hair on fire because she fell asleep during a long-winded monologue about the social mores of the k'chain nahruk.
Great analysis as always, but in case of this story specifically we do get more info later with other books. Since in Fall of Light (?) we get the Gods perspective (Draconus) and we also learn the mages story in Blood and Bone by ICE
My memory is not that good. But I will get there eventually. 😊 I knew that we explore an aspect of the story in Blood and Bone, but it has been a long time since I read it. I am really looking forward to reading it again.
Elder gods embody a host of harsh unpleasantries.. To me that always said as much about their followers, their worshippers - their host - as it did about them. We know so little about K'rul as a god at this point, but although there certainly is an importance to blood in his power and worship he seems more of a creator and preserver than a destroyer or killer. Cruelty isn't a trait I would associate with him, despite the name. Likewise we know next to nothing about Kallor. Him being described as a warrior doesn't preclude him from being magically gifted - Rake essentially is a warrior and warlord too, hecking strong magic user as well. However, Kallor is never described actually using magic. He does seem to have quite a good understanding of magic, perhaps even supernatural insight or foresight. He knows what The Fall was and what that means for the future, he knew the elder gods were coming. We are told Jacuruku was K'Chain Che'malle once, and Kallor says he 'unleashed' something. Those could be linked. We are shown Kallor being unbelievably arrogant - when confronted by three elder gods he speaks first, and as if they're equals. And he has the last word. Not only does Kallor treat them as equals, he seems to know them personally. He at least has had some close relationship with the Sister of Cold Nights, I assume. Kallor is said to have been worse than Jaghut Tyrants - creatures who inspired unending genocidal hatred. None of the four characters in this part of the prologue seem unsympathetic. Yet indirectly or directly they seem to have been the root causes for the tearing down of one divine entity, the destruction of two continents and their own downfall. It's all so intriguing, and we know so little..
They are fascinating. The parallels to the Fall, and the Expulsion from the Garden of Eden, framed in terms of Greek myth, and combined to create a single origin myth is such a fascinating structure, but... but... this might be one of the few instances where I actually want certainty. Regardless, Kallor is far from a simple villain, the gods are ambiguous at best, and the events are cataclysmic and far reaching... So it is a great Prologue.
@@ACriticalDragon Agreed, would love that certainty - or even a Kallor origin story 😁 He's no simple villain for sure, if he is a villain at all. But he sure makes it easy to hate him.
actually i took your error as your interpretation and just disagreed with it. As I read the prologue like 3-4 years ago, i took everything said in it at face value, so for me it was always kallor who killed his people. I just reread the prologue before watching this second video and things aren't so clear anymore. I guess i will have to reread the entire series eventually... In a way I feel erikson has cursed us to never truely grasp everything. Thus.
Erikson is a tricksy one. I think that I will have to come back to Kallor a few times during the read through. He is a complex and fascinating character. The ambiguity in the Prologue is tantalising and suggests a couple of compelling interpretations, but not a definitive reading. It will be a fun one to bear in mind as I read.
As always a great video but the silence in the comments reminds me of the quote "fell dead-born from the press, without reaching such distinction, as even to excite a murmur among the zealots."
Crickets can sound very loud. 😂😂😂 But I can't blame people for not watching a second video of essentially the same analysis. I just wanted to own up to and fix my mistake without hiding it.
You seem sufficiently chastised^^ I'd ask if you got a gloating message from a certain non-existent author, but I guess considering recent events that is no longer appropriate:( I was nodding along when you talked about how much you remember even though you're ve read the books so long ago and then when you started talking about Kallor the nodding turned into complete confusion. I think you're being a bit uncharitable with the Elder Gods in your effort to present Kallor's case. But I guess at this point the reader doesn't know enough about Karsa and faith in the Malazan universe to really talk about that. Imo, whether Kallor himself is a mage, is completely orthogonal to the question of responsibility. He certainly had the power to force others, if he couldn't have pulled the CG down himself. I find the whole curse thing particularly interesting. How do they work mechanically in universe? What are the actual curses or restraints on Kallor if this is mythical retelling? Why didn't they just kill him or punish him with some sort of imprisonment sealing? All very odd.
Hi Lukas, A bit harsh on elder gods that feed on blood and murder? Also, Kallor may claim 'responsibility' but if he isn't a mage then how did he do it? Kallor 'feeling' responsible and wanting to show strength to the gods who have rocked up long after things went to hell might explain both his statements and attitude. But that is the joy of a narrative that gives you room to see different angles and not dictate that something must be so.
@@ACriticalDragon Well, as you know we've seen and will see more of these Elder Gods. Considering how they behave then and what we learn about the relationship between gods and their believers I'd argue there is more to that. Then it's on theme with Karsa and the noble savage deconstruction. (Also I'm not saying they're the good guys coming to save the day.) He's an influential Ruler. It stands to reason that he has access to artifacts and/or "human" resources. It's also explained by things going wrong and him covering his mistake for example. You're right of course we don't have to agree.
And what we see later in the series, as well as in Kharkanas has a direct effect on this particular scene. So it is a brilliant example of the unreliable narration that in this Prologue the gods are presented quite negatively, but that is not necessarily the whole picture. But it would be a bit unfair to bring all that information into a close reading of this Prologue.
@@ACriticalDragon I agree; It is unfair. In my defense: I did finish my thought with "I guess at this point the reader doesn't know enough to talk about this".
I'm sorry, this is going to be a little vulgar but it's also damn funny. About Kilava and the reversed birth imagery... the most common Romania curse is "go to your mother's .unt". It is probably as common as the English use of "fuck" and you should see how ridiculously funny it is when you see a 6 year old using it on a friend and then the two of them grappling t death in defence of their mother's honor :)))) So for us the imagery may not be as shocking as for other nations. The interesting ways in which langauge shapes the psyche and the life philosphy of nations! :)))
@@oniflrog4487 I was probably able to make the association because when I want to deliver the message yet avoid the discomfort of the vulgarity I use "go back to your origin" instead :))) But that's something I haven't seen other people doing, so it might be just a me thing.
@@claudiaiovanovici7569 the sentiment is still visceral as hell, and therefore, maybe not so much avoiding the vulgarity. not that i mind at all ;) that's honestly the most metal insult i've ever heard. :P
