m0a.com Ever struggled with steep turns? In this quick video I'll show you the importance of sight picture and my best secret for making your steep turns more "hands off"
Great tip - I think trim in general is something many pilots need to work on using properly - myself included; especially with IFR training - I sometimes find myself un necessarily distracted with maintaining attitude when I could have the trim working for me (this is a bigger problem in the red bird sim than in the actual plane mind you.) thanks Jason.
Eh, no power adjustment? With those extra g's (1.4G IIRC) you have noticeably more induced drag which you should counteract with more power. Otherwise you inevitably slow down, which aside from being sloppier gets you closer to an accelerated stall since now you need extra AoA not just for the turn but also for the slower airspeed. With a bit of power you can use much less trim, which makes it easier to recover as well. I do my steep turns (in the 172) by adding just a touch of power (just enough to hear the engine note change, maybe 100RPM? never looked) and just 1 roll of the trim wheel, and I can hold the turn to better than 10 feet, usually 5 feet. It's like it's on rails. Easiest thing in the world with a little power and a little trim - and hitting your own wake is fun :)
i think he did; he just didn't mention it. he pulls power as he's rolling out, just doesn't say anything. i add a touch of power as i'm rolling into the turn then i do 2 rolls of trim as i pass 30 degrees of bank.
When I roll into a steep turn, it helps me to maintain altitude if I ritually/consistently begin pulling back when I'm passing through 30 degrees of bank. I try not to touch the elevator until I'm past that point. Pulling back at that point also helps get the aircraft to the final bank-angle for the steep turn maneuver.
That was one of the first things I learned about steep turns....it's amazing how easy the plane will hold itself in place with that trip application. Another great video.
A friend got chastised by DPE on his CFI ride for using trim on his steep turns. I always use trim on steep turns and will on my CFI check coming up. Thanks Jason for the reinforcement that this is a good practice.
Hands down the best video on steep turns. I had my Commercial check ride today in Australia. I was really struggling to get the 60° AoB turns to a good standard. This video fixed it in now time at all. ✈
Jason, this is spot on. Although you didn't mention trim up during steep turns, for anyone who ever took the controls we know the aircraft wants to pitch down during that maneuver so up trim will counter that. For those that frown against using the trim . . . don't use it! Simple; however, in the ACS, it does not state you cannot use it. It only gives parameters that you must meet . . . not how you will meet them. So, for those who have instructors that will not let you use trim . . . sucks to be you. Mine teaches the use of it. Use trim anytime and all the time. Make it and keep it easy. In the 172's that we fly it is two full pulls top to bottom; what we call plastic to plastic (grab wheel at the top of the flat part of the dash and pulling it all the way to the bottom) almost simultaneously while making the bank. I add about 100RPM only if I need it. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I perform the steep turns almost as easy as straight and level. I rarely touch the yoke. In the maneuver I do, I roll out of my left bank and go immediately into a right bank. I use forward pressure to counter the aircraft's want to pitch up (due to the trim). I roll into that bank and just use tiny pressure/counter pressure to make it happen. Use the tools the aircraft gives you to make your flight easy. Why make it hard? if you were not supposed to fly with trim, manufacturers would not have installed it! It seems silly and petty to state reasons why not to use it. It will not make you a better pilot, just a more stubborn one. Those who dissent, should just keep their comments to themselves. This video was created for those needing help in steep turns . . . that is it. If you have opinions to the contrary, make your own d a m n video and refute it. I also agree that before doing anything found on youtube, you need to cover the issue with your instructor to see if this meets with their approval. You don't want to introduce anything new while at 3000 feet. That will increase the pucker factor if it doesn't work out. Cheers you guys.
Very nice! I was trained to use trim in steep turns, just as you showed, but did not think that the right one might need one more because you are fighting torque. Good point.
wow thank you for making this video! I have issues with steep turns on keeping the nose up. I never used trim that much. I'm going to give it a try with 3 rolls. you're an amazing instructor. again thank you for creating this video I've been following you for sometime now and no one teaches like you do.
This is my first comment ever on a you tube video, and it goes out to you!! I am just learning to fly, and really enjoying myself may I add. And steep turns have been a bit of a battle for me to find that sweet spot. I appreciate the tip on trim. Makes complete sense. I wonder why I was never told to do this from my flight school. anyways, Thanks again Jason
Jason, as I told you a couple of years ago at Sun N Fun, this works PERFECT! And for anyone who doesn't believe it, try it! Makes those steep turns a piece of cake for the checkride (or for just flying around)! Great video as always, was good to see you! -Caleb
This helped me so much - although my planes AFG did not recommend trim during steep turns, I got permission from my instructor to try it. Two rolls on my plane worked like a charm, and I could focus on keeping the bank in! Thanks Jason!
Wow! Saw your video yesterday right before I went flying, and I have to say applying trim makes the workload significantly less on steep turns. Thank you!
Yup just as shown in this video, but i think I'll start keeping my trim down to only 2 rolls specifically on the right steep turn. I notice I climb a lil sometimes because of the extra trim. My left turns always require a lot more back pressure so I def keep my trim to 3 on that.
My day just got 10 times better after seeing this. I end up chasing pitch, power, bank, airspeed like a crazy person who hasn't ever been anywhere. :D I can't wait to try this. Cheers
Great Tip. I've never heard an instructor, or another pilot, ever mention using trim in a turn. They always recommend pulling back on the stick as the turn is initiated. I'll give it a try next time I'm up. Thanks
The gentleman in charge of the flight school I am using, Capt Tom Davis, teaches the same method. He has been teaching for over 40 years (90 years old and a DPE) and is a great pilot in the cockpit. I have never seen anyone better. I fly in the same general areas as Jason.
Thank you for this excellent video on turns. I earned my private pilot license last summer but I still have questions about turns. Is there a video on doing a perfect one minute turn? For example if you inadvertently fly into IMC and you want to do a 180 turn to head back to VMC. The one minute turn or a standard rate turn is required, correct? Is there a video that demonstrates this?
In the Piper Seminole, I peg the aircraft at 125kts. Dip left at 50° bank. Turn with attitude indicator locked at +2.5° and add about 2" MP and it works just like this. Side note: +2.5° is my instrument reference point where I don't climb or descend. I mainly focus a point with the horizon and glare shield.
Ha. Great tip! Thank you :) Does your online ground school use jeppesen books? I just spent over $200 on books and having a hard time soaking up the material.
Contrary to popular belief, planes do not fall out of the skies in a controlled coordinated turn. One of my fears. Beautifully done Jason. I guess' thoroughly know and love the plane you fly and like it enough to allow what's it's meant to do and this is to fly. Thanks
Recently my flight instructor asked me to do a no flaps landing............forward to the first landing ....airspeed not completely stabilized, good landing but a tad too fast >>>>>high approach speed ,,,,,,,,,, how do I control this? Brain kicks in and hey, if I can do an engine out procedure and trim for best glide speed which is almost exactly a stabilized approach speed why not use TRIM.> Next approach, relaxed 70 mph all the way to the numbers and a buttery smooth landing,,,,,, thanks for reinforcing tools that we can use to make us more relaxed better pilots. BTW love your enthusiasm and vids!
Jason I love the awesome 172. Looking to buy an M model. Which model is your 172. They trim so well and thanks for the 3 and 4. I use those numbers often. They work very well!
It is going to be nose up to compensate for a loss in the vertical component of lift. As your turn gradually gets steeper, your horizontal component of lift increases therefore requiring greater back pressure on the controls. Steep turns are normally easier to the left, so if your examiner lets you choose, go left. remember, pts standards are +/- 100' of altitude gain or loss and +/- 10 degrees of bearing change on rollout for private pilots.
Nice trick. My Aeronca Chief, (a docile creature anyway), made me look perfect in my recent biennial flight review by reaching up and jabbing a bit of trim in on the steep turn. Examiners "who highly disagree..." Shut up. I bet Lindbergh did whatever was necessary to get the job done. And he did. This vid demonstrated a broad mind in the world of aviation.
I'm with you on using trim in steep turns (why do extra work when you don't need to?), though many DPEs are frowning on it. I think partly because the want to see an applicant's ability to fly steep turns outside of the box or a test ie in the real world where they may not have a perfect situation to do this in.
Thanks for the tip. I've always hated steep turns because they seem hard. My BFR flight is coming up. I'm trying the trim trick. Looks like you don't have to add any power at all?
I learned this on my flight test. I did my steep turns to specification, but they weren't stable and I was working hard to stay in the limits. The examiner said "let me show you a better way..." and told me why it might be useful, like a plane circling a hot spot in a forest fire while calling in the waterbombers.
That trick has been known since I learned in the 70s. This maneuver is not about trimming the plane but being able to control it using bank. Back pressure and rudder
Helpful information, in general. The view from the wing tip, while visually interesting, adds virtually nothing to the instruction; the cockpit front view is the most valuable; the shot of you, helpful, but less so. the actual instruction, excellent.
ASAD MALIK yes the audio get stored directly to the GOPRO. The adapter connects to that miniusb port on the GOPRO. Its up to the video uploader to combine the audio file all together when editing so that the sound appears on all the videos. The cable can be bought at radio shack. Those stores are international. Remember one side has the thick mic side on one end and the smaller side like your iPhone headset on the other end. Remember in some countries recording ATC is not legal. In the US its a ok. I have a few vids on mine where I did this. You can also go back to liveatc.net and see if your airports are available there for future playback.
Bank is done to Private or Commercial Standards? It looks too shallow for 45 even. Not sure. Also, how do you maintain airspeed without adding power? Or did i just miss it? Thanks!
It looks like 30 degrees to me in the video. Typically at 45 degrees, I'm beginning to counter-steer (use aileron slightly in the opposite direction of the turn).
The examiner in this area highly disagrees with using trim in a steep turn demonstration and I agree with him. A pilot should easily be able to do this maneuver by maintaining the proper back pressure. Are you teaching the student to trim or do a steep turn?
Cyndy Hollman Cyndy - I agree with your examiner. Before the maneuver is started and the airplane is in a 1g condition, trimming out pressure would be appropriate. As the maneuver develops into the 45 degree bank, the nose gets a little heavy which is important feedback to the pilot via the control wheel that the airplane is in an abnormal condition. If this pressure is trimmed out, the pilot would lose this valuable feedback and may not realize in certain situations that the airplane is in a possibly dangerous condition.
+Cyndy Hollman In my 4th training flight I did steep turns at 3,000 ft, on my first one I dropped down to 2,300 ft because I forgot I needed to pitch up. No real problem, we just went back up to 3,000 ft and tried again. This time I knew what I did wrong, and put all my effort into the back pressure while turning at 45 degrees. The result: I flew in a circle, so much so that we collided with our own displacement when we exited the turn and it jolted us around. My FI never said anything about trim to me.
I don't understand your evaluation of this technique. This is a VFR maneuver. I don't need any feedback from the control yoke to know I am in an unusual maneuver because I am looking out side. The Steep Turn maneuver is utilized to develop smoothness, coordination, orientation, division of attention and control techniques necessary for maximum performance turns. I do not see anything wrong with using trim during this maneuver. There is nothing in the Private or Commercial ACS that says to stay away from the trim wheel during this maneuver.
I am a private pilot student and am going to my check ride in 4 day. I wanted know the proper way to do this maneuver. Please help me out with this. Remember that a good pilot is always learning! THANK YOU
Don't confuse flight simming with real world flying. If you are not a qualified pilot, your comments based on flight simulation could be and are very dangerous if somebody applies your suggestions and kills himself.
I have never had electric trim, but my guess is that the electric trim must have an indicator of how much trim is used, so one would use the equivalent of like 3 or 4 rolls of trim on the manual trim wheel.
sze yue chow "Three rolls of trim." Meaning grab the trim wheel at the top and pull all the way down until your fingers are at the lowest point where you can still touch it. Repeat that 2 more times and you have "three rolls."
The plane is performing exactly the way he wants and he is monitoring it the whole time by the real horizon...perfect. Too many complaining about nothing.
Trimming in a turn is a really bad habit to start that will hurt you later on. I'm not saying it is necessarily unsafe, but hand flying through the turn is preferable. Especially in anything larger.
Paul Bilobrowka I would say its a bad habit I would like to add. 1. Thats not a steep turn and 2. steep turns are usually practiced for avoidance or the need to get around and down quickly so don't be messing about with trim, learn the feel of the aircraft with hand flying.
Mark Holm. Trim is not a primary flight control. If you trim during a turn, there is a slight delay between the time you feel the need to apply control and the moment when you finish giving trim imput. that is likely to result in overcontrolling.
in Australia I'm not allowed to use my trim during the steep turn, it gets me frustrating, I have a big tendency to chase the needle, during training my instructor decided to cover the altimeter and I did a steep turn, surprisingly to me I held my altitude somehow, but its still frustrating, any tips on steep turns without trim ?
Aviator997 actually that is better practice, because the idea of using steep turn is to avoid close call traffic. So, when you need avoid other traffic, you won't have time to use trim before turn.
I think this video is more directed to those students that have decent proficiency with manual steep turns. This is useful for once you have proficiency by hand and you want to introduce some trim to help you hold it. I don't think he would teach this to brand new students without understanding the manual steep turn.
Neither my instructor nor my DPE will allow trim unfortunately. Had to do them by increasing power then decreasing at the conclusion of the two turns (commercial)
Hey Shawna! I'd be happy to help! This trick does in fact work in piper aircraft and in most aircraft you will get the same result. It's a great way to supplement the back pressure needed to maintain your altitude during a steep turn. Keep practicing this and over time you'll get more comfortable with it. Hope that helps!
@@MzeroAFlightTraining Thanks! I think i'm going to try and do my training in the 172 though. I like the cockpit better, where the trim is, and visuals outside. Your videos are so helpful for a new student like me - thank you so much!
