First, something I think could be useful for viewers: 00:00 - Introduction 03:28 - Scoring criteria 09:04 - 11th: Brawlers (Dashat), 10th: Brawlers (Druze) 10:37 - 9th: Taagma Schemer (Spiral Corps) 11:50 - 8th: Atalanta (Aleph) 13:59 - 7th: Nisse (Svalarheima) 15:29 - 6th: Kamau (Varuna) 17:05 - 5th: Knauf (Starco) 18:32 - 4th: Yaogat (MAF) 20:04 - 3rd: Grenzer (Tunguska), 2nd: Neoterra Bolt (Foreign Company), 1st: Neoterra Bolt (NCA) Second, your video is an interesting one and quite useful, but not taking into account the reaction of the enemy (which would be a whole headache on its own to calculate, I know), kind of make this video useful just to an extent. As you said yourself, Mimetism for example can be very helpful if the enemy decide to shoot you back. Hoping for another video on ARO snipers though, I like watching this comparative videos.
I tried and tried to think of a way to calculate the response. I feel the best way would have been to have a single opponent to measure them all against. The decision to dodge or shoot back would simply be based on the target’s best dice roll. Would that of worked?
@@the_infinitygamer it's difficult to judge it, because it depends on many things, as you said: weapon, range, Mimetism, PH, BS, MSV, etc. I think you would have required at least 4 different ARO enemies: -MSV, Mimetism -MSV, no Mimetism -no MSV, Mimetism -no MSV, no Mimetism In all these 4 cases, they would have required decent BS and PH and a weapon in a comfortable range to at least reach the sniper. As you said, it's just too many variables to take into consideration and you have already done a lot by preparing that comparison. It's one of the things I love about this game, it's full of interconnected variables, which make for a realistic and highly tactical game. At the same time, however, it makes very difficult to completely evaluate a unit in all those situations it could find itself into.
If I could get my hands on a CSV of all the units in Infinity I could probably work out the odds of facing certain mods and the sniper’s capacity for dealing with most of the likely scenarios in the game. It could easily be outdone by a few units but if those didn’t occur too often that could factor into the points.
@@the_infinitygamer If I could advise, I would compare the ARO snipers facing following threats: 1) Heavy unit, with Mimetism modifiers (Cutter, Avatar). 2) Heavy unit, without Mimetism (Squalo) 3) Light unit with Mimetism modifiers (Kamau). 4) Light unit with both Mimetism and MSC (Nisse) 5) Light unit without modifiers (Fusilier). That could encompass quite a lot of situations. Anyway, good job you put into it already.
Late, but I do think this analysis method undersells the utility of the insane mixed Morats Core the Yagot goes in. I freely admit that his is probably beyond the score of an easy numerical analysis. Butt beyond just having 4 minimum-price Vanguard chilling in the back to feed Veteran orders, the mixed Core lets you build a lot of capabilities into your list that still benefit from the pure/full core bonuses without an issue. You want a hacker to get Sixth Sense AND full bonuses on his Pitcher? Do it. Flex to offense with a TacAware HMG? Ship it. Stuff your link with cheap dirt-cheap HI loaded with templates to trade into Warbands, or cheap HI HRLs to take ARO duty. You can even meme on people with a linked Autocannon, if so inclined. The combined effect is that the the pure Morat core with the Yagot, while maybe not as powerful at the very top end as something like the pure Bolt (+NCA Machinist) core, is actually a realistic and playable situation in a lot of cases. You aren't making that the whole gimmick of your list like you kind of have to with - say - a Grenzer core.
I do actually agree with you. The Yaogat core is an insanely powerful sniper group but the options outside of that for Morats are so varied that it’s why Morats is so powerful. I love playing that sectorial.
awesome video. Love the idea! i love my nca bolts. even as a defensive piece they are very oppressive hitting on 19s with two shots against most targets
Good job! I appreciate the work that went into this. I do kind of wish that there was list for single and one for fireteam. Obviously a fireteam makes a sniper a little better. Some of the ones you have here are not that great when just a single guy. But what about vanilla? I think Knauf would end up on top. I think I'd also like something like this for Hackers. However that might just be CA, Aleph, and Nomads for the whole thing. lol
I think a spetsnaz AP sniper probably should have broken into this list, and I think it didn't because you're underestimating mimetism and some of the roles a sniper can play. Dropping 2 camo tokens down in sniper nest locations, making it so you don't have to take the sniper shot until you absolutely want to and forcing mind games with discovery rolls combined with then screwing around with dice math a ton with the modifiers is something truly fun to play. But a lot of that is situational and intangible. They also don't fall prey to common counters to snipers like melee. They have MA2 and an AP CCW to boot.
The problem is that everything you’ve listed is very good - depending on your opponent. Mimetism is only useful if your opponent doesn’t have MSV. This was about offensive sniping so the camo tokens are good but your opponent can just delay until you reveal. Not saying you’re wrong but it was too situational to score.
As someone who finally got his first game of Infinity in this week, and has favorite military/fighting unit as snipers, man this could not have come at a better time! . . . . Sad the factions I want to play didn't take top 5, but I guess that means I need to branch out more. Thanks for the vid!
Great Job here. But, actually, you can get the the Neoterra Bolt in a cheaper pure Core Link Team if you swap a Boarding Shotgun Bolt for a Machinist NCA. And then you would get a pure core link for 113 points. Keep up the good work.
The best sniper in the game by far is the Íntruder, no contest. It has - BS 13 - ARM 3 - MULTI Sniper Rifle - Camouflage - Mimetism -3 - Stealth - Surprise Attack - Terrain (Total) All that for 41 points and 1.5 SWC. Given how cheap everything else in Nomads is that's quite a steal in context in context with everything else. Compared to the Grenzer's 32/1.5 and the Bolt's 31/1.5 it's criminally under costed.
I built the Grenzer sniper model recently, it definitely takes the No.1 spot for best figure, that pose is sweet! Shame I’ll never run a grenzer core at that price, maybe one day!
@@the_infinitygamer I'm imagining the epsilon was somewhere around there too. I always feel the intruder and epsilon are very similar pieces when I swap between my o12 and nomads!
Neoterran bolts 🤔 ALL the best miniatures have been Discontinued. We discussed this similar topic regarding the Tikbalang duo 😜 Let's hope CB reinstate the Neoterran faction & others 👍
Love the video, love the work put into this, but.... Mimetism is 100% an active turn mod. Due to the f2f mechanic, you will have more shots hits because they are missing you more, and canceling less of your hits.
Only if they don’t also have MSV2. But you’re correct you would choose a face off where that wasn’t the case. Like I said, it does factor into these results but not as heavily as active turn moss like Marksmanship or MSV.
@@the_infinitygamer It seems like mimetism should still be pretty impactful. If the logic is that a sniper without MSV is choosing their engagements to not deal with mimetic threats, then shouldn't it follow that a mimetic sniper is choosing not to engage MSV targets? Especially because MSV is much less common than mimetism. Mimetism definitely isn't a reactive turn ability - most of the best active-turn pieces in the game use it.
@Infinity Gamer Maybe the methodology I'm approaching with is different. To me it's working out very similar for something like a marksmanship sniper and a mimetism -3 sniper shooting into something like, say, a pure core of kappas with a MSR. The marksmanship is a bit better, but by a negligible amount. A mimetism -6 unit is significantly advantaged over either. These patterns remain the same even if we unlink the target. I do think the conclusion of bolts/grenzers being the best in general if you're assuming pure cores, but it means you might miss out on some funky edge cases like reverend moira snipers (I think the only pure core linkable mim-6 sniper, not good but technically good at winning FtF?). If I'm missing something in your methodology please let me know, Infinity math is always a bit fun!
I gotta disagree w/ "not as heavily as active turn mods". Mimetism is *more* relevant during the active turn, imo. If they have MSV, they're going to use it on their active turn. Also, MSV is less useful, on average, than mimetism. Mimetism works against the majority of units, while MSV doesn't. But this is a minor quibble, and I recognize it as such. Thanks for the video! :D
Interesting analysis. From what I've seen, a MULTI sniper rifle should use AP if the target's armour is 8 (in cover) and 10 (out of cover). Otherwise, DA ammo is more likely to land at least one wound.
@@the_infinitygamer I used Excel to work out what the highest DMG where DA is better against a specific ARM. 9 DMG 6 ARM DA is still better, 7 ARM AP is better. Subtrack the cover mod from the DMG. 9 DMG v 6ARM 10 v 7 11-13 v 8 14 v 9 15-16 v 10 So, Multi-Sniper DA is better vs. ARM 10, or ARM 8 in Cover To get the chance of to save both with DA, multiply the chance to save without DA by itself. Chance to save is just the number of successful results / 20. So, DMG 10 vs. no armour is 50% chance to save. DA brings that down to a 25% chance to save
@@the_infinitygamer I did the same calculation in excel, and came up with the same result - armour 8 in cover is where to change to AP. Glad to see someone else getting the same numbers! I also did the calc for EXP vs AP+DA on a Feuerbach, and EXP is better up to armour 6 in cover.
Prediction: It's the Lasiq. Totally the Lasiq. Totally not biased at all. Would be kinda funny if the much maligned Tuareg made it into this list... I'm not a Combined Army kinda guy, but... That sniper? Gorgeous looking model....
@@the_infinitygamer Eh, no worries about it, you're already arguably the "one to blame" for my desire for a Starmada faction, and I honestly hadn't looked at the newer CA models because I know I've got enough to work with. Doesn't stop one from taking a look though, right? ^_^ Taking a quick look through their more recent releases, I've an idea of what caught my eye the most - their armour. I absolutely LOVE their armour, but I'm fairly quick to pass over (at least at first glance) the models that don't have helmets. I suspect for now I'm safe, although it never hurts to at least look.
I fully agree. A lot of the new styling, across the range, has me doing a double take. Not going to lie but some of the Haqq releases have me peering over the fence.
Also, imo, the only way to do this is via the dice calculator. Which you had done, versus a fusilier and the Avatar. Throw in TR Atalanta, and an Albedo Overdron, and I think you'd come up with some pretty good scenarios to average. This also lets you include mimetism and msv in a natural way.
@@the_infinitygamer that's true... maybe have her as a side case? Definitely would have some sort of good sniper, tho, since that's probably relevant to the discussion.
6:53 I'm so offended! Actually, I'm not. You need to make a decision about these sort of things. I'm not sure I agree but I'm also fairly inexperienced. MSV2 feels like it's almost best on a sniper, plus smoke-shooting feels really powerful. Maybe it's because I'm vanilla Nomads so I don't have a lot of MSV2 options I really like other than the Intruder, and a Morlock dropping smoke at his feet so I can pick off all the enemy AROs one at time that my opponent thought he forked me with was a good, recent, experience. However, this is always going to be subjective and I do appreciate that you are trying to take your subjective opinions and then systematically use them.
You’re completely correct and things like smoke shooting are exceptional. However, you then have to factor in the faction’s access to smoke (sorry Pan O) and how cheaply it can use it versus another faction.
@@the_infinitygamer OSS has the Apsara, which sets the BS to 13 as a base (among other attributes). So a Dakini Core with composition bonuses (a Multi Sniper and 4 Combi Rifles), an Apsara, and a Probot EVO Hacker comes out to 109pts and 2 SWC. The Sniper Dakini would have Mimetism -3 (which doesn't appear to be weighted, but notable), Burst 3, and an effective BS of 19 (13, +3 Range, +3 Core team, Marksmanship) which would be cheaper than the Grenzer and Bolt teams, and only miss out on MSV1. Though I'm not sure if other support elements were intended to be in scope.
Here's why Mimitesm is relevant when attacking.... Face to Face rolls. Your odds of dice are better. You said you factored in surprise shot... thats just mim-3! Otherwise good content :)
True! Apart from surprise shot affects all enemies while mimetism only affects most. It’s a good perspective though and is definitely a good thing to have.
No to add yet another factor into your already impressive spreadsheet, but are we counting 'Order Efficiency'. Some of these pure fireteams will come with Tac Aware or NCO, others won't
@@the_infinitygamer I don't even know how you'd quantify it. It only came to mind cos I'm a Tunguska player and found myself thinking "there's no way I'd run a 5 Grenzer team, but if I did I'd pay the one extra point for an NCO"
For sure, looking at Grenzers myself they’re an expensive way to get a sniper that good and I love your suggestion of making it worthwhile with the NCO. That helps compensate for the lack of a regular order you’d have of you spent the points elsewhere.
I'm guessing the Zhayedan sniper (bs12 marksmanship - cohesive core link starts at 71pt) slips down the charts as its not a multi sniper? Which would make it less reliable once you get to the wound step
For someone who aren’t able to play as much as I wish, what do you mean when you say “Avatar”? I was going to ask what you did mean with “NCA” but when I checked the application I figured it out myself 🤪
Good you could find the answers! The Avatar is a TAG in combined army that’s widely regarded as the worst enemy to face. It’s not as bad as it used to be but very scary!
Oh, I have a gorgeously painted Knauf, and have seen that I can use him with my 0-12, so I did base him with my 0-12. I may have to try using him against my mate Jamie.
Knauf is still 3 shots out of a link. I use him somewhat regularly in o-12. I go back and forth whether the lynx or knauf is better. Knauf definitely better offensively but lynx wayyy better defensively. and -12 shooting out of cover surprise shot with lynx is so good. You can shoot other snipers down.
Oh I should get a lynx? I've barely started 0-12, and constantly looking for more models to add. I have Copperbots, Beta Troopers, and that Bluecoat with an adhesive launcher assembled ready for painting.
Same as PavarottiAadvark. My goal atm with the Fireteam nerf is not to go on a full Fireteam bonuses (unless it's not that expensive) vs the order efficiency needed to kill that shit out. Regarding that Armand le Muet is missing from that top and probably the most OP sniper atm in cost/efficiency, the Acon regular (sapper with bs 18 in pure cheap core). It's interesting tough just missing a few pont imo (like I do feel that Nisse sniper is kinda shit atm, you have way better things to do in SWF for exemple)
How does the Sapper get to BS18? It’s only starting from a BS12 which means it would be BS15 on the chart (no range bonus as farther would be in cover). Le Muet ranked OK but didn’t go too high, where do you think he’s best and I’ll check my math 😃
@@the_infinitygamer oh it was because of the insane range band of the sniper. If do you consider it on a reactive side in size of order efficiency, mimetism is better than msv and if someone want to be in cover 24/7 it'll cost him more orders :).
I don't disagree with your list, I also don't mind you choosing this more subjectively. There is a ton of different scenarios in game and wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts why something is interesting. Bagh mari snipers are unique that they are linkable mineylayers, Proxy 2 is mim 6 and not losing an order for risking them, Moira benefit from NCO making them efficient, linked dakini with REM PRES falling prone with a ton of great engineers, Armand Le meut having NBW might be interesting to some, Zheydan have under powered wpns but regen and marksman and pure link in Ramah, even grunts for their sheer annoyance and cheap price. *Also as a Spiral player, I hate my own Taagma. hahahaha
All are great in their own right (although NBW being used on a sniper means someone’s where you don’t want them!). These are all things that make each flavour different and fun!
@@the_infinitygamer as an ariadna player trying to get a le meut on a roof that is out ranging my options, him having NBW can complicate things. I just think how much damage is output for points is maybe not the only metric to consider
It definitely isn’t the only metric, that’s for sure. However, calculating the effectiveness of ancillary abilities relies on knowing its place in the meta. NBW, for example, is only useful if you’re being attacked by something with MA. How many units is that? How many of those would be deep in your deployment zone to attack a sniper? It’s definitely a nice additional bonus but is near impossible to quantify - which makes it tricky to add to a scoring system!
I think this is useful....but not what I was expecting. The best sniper in a fireteam is probably not the best stands on its own merits sniper. Probably a different list.
Bundling them all together made it more inclusive (hello Atalanta) and doing a best fireteam sniper would have done a disservice to the few stand-alone snipers that can deliver similar stat lines for much lower costs.
@@the_infinitygamer My point is more that in your video you imply that MSV is worth only a small factor, I am pointing out if you are having a test case where they have to go vs an avatar then even if it is worth a small amount you are imposing selective pressures from the simulation that can override or outmatch your numeric rating. This will cause a bias based off of that pressure, this will cause groups like the fusilier fire team worth 57 points and which shoots as well as the brawler to drop off in simulation. In essence you could cut the snipers you are looking at for this down by only those with MSV because only those will score high enough to matter in the simulations.
I see your point. It’s worth me mentioning that the simulated firefight between the avatar and the sniper in question didn’t impact its points value or ranking. I’d first run the points valuation to determine its rank then took the top 10 profiles and run them through the dice calculator as confirmation of their prowess.
