As to the China thing... I was on an advisory board for Volvo Trucks in the early 2000's. At one of our meetings, the sales people were all excited that they had sold 100 trucks to China. They thought they were "opening a new market." I told them they might never sell another truck in China; the Chinese would disassemble the trucks, copy every piece, and make their own. I don't know how it all shook out, but that's the way the Chinese work.
Also, the never-ending conspiracy that Kawasaki bought Harley Davidson like a decade ago...it was an April fools joke that so many people even to this day still believe.
One I heard of recently was how Harley Davidson bankrupted Alta motorcycles and now the new company that owns the brand can't make any new models because Harley owns all the rights to it
Don't forget Buell, They were a Harley subsidiary making American beginner and sport bikes, then dropped them, crushing owners, and everyone in the supply chain, and especially Buell himself.
The W-650 argument is Spurious . Kawasaki copied the Brits , to make a Lovely retro . When Triumph makes one , they are RECLAIMING their Branding . The Daimler " Bike " was the first Internal Combustion Engine . THAT is what that is about . The Velocipede was External Combustion .
@John Cunningham. Of course the Hinckley Triumphs have no historical link to the original Meriden Triumphs, just another case of a company paying for the badge to ride on the former company's laurels. Much the same with the resurrection of BSA and Norton. The Kawasaki W650 and W800 are very well engineered bikes with recourse back to when Meguro legally purchased manufacturing rights from BSA, designed from the ground up to be a extremely accurate copy of 60's and early 70's British design. The look and Kawasaki's attention to detail, the use of high quality components, steel pressings for muguards and side panels, the beautifully profiled fuel tank, the ride, the frame, the handling, the feel of that 360° parallel twin and the exhaust note all reflect the best of 60's British motorcycle industry, but with much improved, stronger, oil tight engines reflective of Japanese engine building prowess. In this instance Kawasaki took the original designs and made a better motorcycle.
I can't imagine that swingarm scoop would generate much downforce but it looks well positioned to help keep the brake disk cool (only on the brake side?). Besides they can't run the disk fluid through a radiator.
Hey Bart. Check these 2 wheel conspiracies. T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia) died in a motorcycle wreck. Witnesses state he was run off the road by a black vehicle that drove away. The theory is he was killed by the British government for what he knew and his involvement in the middle east. Secondly, check the theory about the biker shootout in Waco, Tx. The first shooter(according to the theory and multiple witnesses) was an undercover cop and the whole thing was planned to give them a reason to go after motorcycle clubs. Not to mention they handcuffed and left several of the wounded untreated on the curb untill they bled out and died. That one is shrouded in all kinds of censorship and redtape. Both very interesting conspiracy theories involving motorcycles.
Ol' T. E. L. Was on a brough superior ss100, (not a vincent, or norton, et.c.) and drove off the road to avoid running into a pack of children in the way. Speed was not excessive, but tire traction, brakes, and helmet technology of the day were dismal. Also, donald turnipseed was not one of the kids....
That reminds me of a case I studied when I was doing paralegal work for the public defender's office in Po. Or.. The FBI tried to set Sonny Barger up on a charge of accepting money to do a hit on someone. The trouble was the guy the FBI sent in under cover was wanted in Texas for faking his on death to get out of a murder conviction.
In 1970 Cycle magazine tested several bikes produced by manufacturers of the day. The 750 Norton Commando won the quarter mile test prompting several teams to claim foul. Norton did have two of its top tuners prepare the bike but technically did not violate the rules. The Honda 750 four for instance was just recently uncrated and nothing was done to it. It was a similar situation with other manufacturers.
you failed to mention the knockoff R6 has a parallel twin engine instead of the Yamaha's inline 4, which makes the difference in power IMMENSE. the knockoff might be making 30hp, compared to the actual R6's 90ish hp, and really, that's pushing it. More likely is under 20hp. they also sound MUCH different, like a chainsaw compared to an Indy 500 race car.
About the first motorcycle. Daimler's is the first motorcycle with an INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine. He is credited with inventing the INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine
The Daimler Reitwagen actually does ride on two wheels although it has two extra wheels as „cornering support“ they where there so this heavy thing doesn’t fall over.
In the mid 1960s honda bikes were well established,suzukis up and coming then kawasaki appeared.Their first bike in the uk was a 650 twin and an exact copy of the bsa 650 in every respect apart from the badge.It still happens.If you admire it, copy it.
It even had cross-arms so you could swap the shift and rear brake from one side to the other. It actually sounded like a Triumph, something NONE of the Harley look-a-likes have ever pulled off.
Hey Bart, great vid. Is there a reason that the footage you used is horizontally flipped? Is it a copyright algorithm thing? Genuinely curious. BTW - I was in the market for a Thruxton last year but couldn't get a test ride because of supply issues. I'm kinda glad now, because I am starting to not like Triumph's behaviour and I've since seen that there are so many great bikes out there at about half the price of a new Thruxton. I might even get a real classic (thanks to you), instead of a modern 'fake'.
Actually Triumph did consult with Kawasaki about engine design for their first models. Their designs have evolved considerably since. Can anyone really say that the modern Bonneville is a copy of the W, or vice versa? I think it's more likely that each is an individual interpretation of a classic standard.
In the 50's Harley Davidson got the AMA to outlaw Norton's featherbed frame for American racing, because it was easier to do that than to come up with any new ideas. When Norton riders kept beating Harley even with their old frames Harley got them to ban Norton's OHC 500 single completely. Yes, AMA racing has always sucked.
Yamaha RD350 conspiracy. Back when the RD350 came out, its 350cc two stroke twin made so much peaky power that guys who were used to riding 4 strokes underestimated it, causing them to crash and sometimes die. I've heard speculation that the "RD" stood for "Revenge Death" and selling this bike in the US was Japan's way of getting back at us for the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They wanted to cause us as many road deaths and rider deaths as possible. I heard this from my friend's dad, after two of my friends crashed his old junker RD350 (riding separately at different times on the same day). My one friend ignored our warnings about the power. He had been riding dirt bikes for years and literally waved his hand at us and said"I got this". He then rode or of the driveway, twisted the throttle, and immediately stood the bike straight up, dragging his legs off the back as it wheelied. It ground a hole in the license plate, and a couple holes in his pants. My friend's dad said"yeah you gotta be careful with that little bike, or you'll be wearing it as a hat.". I've wanted an RD350 every since
@@ragimundvonwallat8961 haha of course not. After all, the RD was based on the earlier R5. It was just my friend's dad being the character that he is. But I almost cried at what my friends did to that bike. Although I committed similar travesties in my youth. I had a Polaris Centurion 500 triple snowmobile(rare sled) that was built with big Mikunis and triple expansion chambers. Basically a nice vintage survivor drag sled. I rode it as a trail sled and beat it to death. I did end up selling it to some old guys who hopefully restored it. With age comes wisdom
@@middlesiderrider we all did that...but now that thing become crappier instead of getting better its more painfull than ever. its 1973 again but this time on everything not just on cars
The liquid cooled RD350 two stroke was available in a Canada and US buyers had to get them from there. It’s power band hit at 7000 rpm, so it had a race bike style of riding.
Chinese companies make knockoffs of popular knives. They can look identical. The difference though is that when a knife geek had the blade steel of several knockoff blades tested, they tests revealed that the steel was typically a tool steel that was not of nearly the same quality as the steel used in the brand name knives. I own a couple of these knockoffs and I can tell the steel is not the steel advertised. I would be worried that the bearings, connecting rods, crankshaft, and other high stress parts of one of these clone motorcycles would not be up to the quality standards to withstand the same stresses that the brand bike was capable of. It can look like the real thing, but that does not mean that it is built to the same material standards as the real thing.
I love Kawasaki's Ws. Back in 2015 I almost got a W800 but in my country it was more expensive than it's Triumph counterpart. I ended up getting the Triumph, but I also think that Kawasaki's design looks closer to those old British bikes.
Once upon time in the sixties there was Meguro K1 which was licence made BSA A7. Kawasaki bought Meguro. Meguro K1 was developed to Kawasaki W1, W2, and finally W3. During nineties Kawasaki wanted to make retro and made Kawasaki W650. So W800 is actually based originally on BSA.
@@rickrandom6734 I didn’t know that, but it’s interesting. It kind of explains how they’ve maintained those classic lines. What I also liked more about the w800 is that the controls and some other pieces in the motorcycle are aluminum, instead of plastic.
On Triumph's attempt to replicate Kawasaki's W, all I can say is that my 2018 W800 is a much better bike than my 2007 Thruxton except for power output. Sometimes we get infatuated with the brand regardless of flaws. I championed the Thrux until I got on the W, but I kept it because it's the last carburetted model in the Bonneville line and I still like it. Just for comparison and reference.
The W800 is an amazing motorcycle unfortunately naked bikes don't do too well in sales in the US and eventually they fade away. Glad u got one while u could 👍
Ohh the "Irony" it was only by "Copying" & refining the Triumph Twin that got Yamahas foot in the door with the Weston world that Japan cornered the market.
What about Connecticut's helmet law? Hartford is the capital of the insurance industry. A rider crashes without a helmut and his probability of survival is extremely low, thus saving the insurance industry millions.
How about the lack of competition between motorcycle gear retailers? Recently discovered that all the main companies are actually the same company! And I've found even some that aren't "officially" part of the RevZilla/JP Cycles/etc. group have still been shipped to me straight from their warehouses! Plus obvious price-fixing for many brands, where they don't allow the products to go on sale for too low of a price! (Also a provable one. Read the wording of the fine print of the next "site-wide sale" anywhere.) Insanity.
In the 1980s, people told me that my Yamaha TX650 was a copy of a BSA Lightning. The only things they had in common though were bore and stroke, and the number and layout of the cylinders.
I could see a motorcycle crash inducing an anxiety disorder of some kind because of the intense emotion and fear. Could explain why he wanted out of the spot light for a while.
Related to the Chinese thing, BMC Motorcycles of Brazil were well known to be reverse engineering BMW motorcycles of the 70s and 80s and building their own versions with Government support.
I actually read this theory back in the late 90s...The REAL reason Honda wins more championships....In Japan the traditional rulers were the shogun's. Family clans would wage war for control. In the modern era the shoguns became corporations and post ww2 there was a massive civil war for dominance and finally in the 1980s the Honda Vs Yamaha war broke out with Honda the victor. Occasionally one of the weaker clans may win a battle but they are very quickly put in their place, like Suzuki and kawasaki, and will not make the mistake of risking all out war with the shogun by winning the following year... allegedly Suzuki apologized to Honda when Kenny junior won the 500 title.... the war for the shogunate continues to this day...
Most of the big 4 zaibatsu families don't involve themselves in motor vehicles except for Mitsubishi. Most of the other zaibatsus started up around the Russo Japanese War. So, while the families might have been around for a long time, they would have no reason to carry on any sort of shadow war. The way explication would be the number of gentlemens agreements that happen in the Japanese motorcycle industry.
Sooo, Kaw copies Tr and so Tr says "oh hey maybe there's a market for our old look" and then makes an update of their old look, not really a copy of Kaw.
Then came Bronson tv series wanted to use a triumph. They needed 8 to a dozen bikes for the rigors of filming they even had Bud Ekins as mechanic/ tuner stunt rider, the brits were to tight to provide these bikes for free so Harley Davidson provided them with sportsters . Can you imagine how many bikes Triumph would have sold, which bike is still being made without an interruption in production. ✌
Ducati is a group of companies, best known for manufacturing motorcycles and headquartered in Borgo Panigale, Bologna, Italy. The group is owned by German automotive manufacturer Audi through its Italian subsidiary Lamborghini, which is in turn owned by the Volkswagen Group.
WRT the first motorcycle, there is evidence of much earlier motorcycles. For example, it says in the bible that Joshua's triumph was heard throughout the land ...
Aaah, Chinese copy-skills! Yeah, like another commenter, mrblanche, I worked for a Fortune 500 during the 2000's (and earlier), and attended SEVERAL corporate meetings where they were SO GLAD to get 1,000-unit initial sales to China for 'key products' in our main lineup. The catch? Every single part, on every single product we sold them...had to come with COMPLETE technical drawings ('blueprints')! I ALWAYS protested...but was shot down by various company officers as 'being against business'. The CEO finally asked in the last meeting, 'why are you so adamant against these sales?' I replied that I was NOT against sales...I was against releasing our FULL print catalog to a foreign nation who recognized NO U.S. Patent or Copyright protections...and where all companies operated as 'state-run businesses'...that if we wouldn't do this with out domestic competitors, why IN THE WORLD would we do this with China?' He said in reply, 'well, they wouldn't do this...they are a nation!'...I replied, 'they are a direct competitor...and while I have to do what you end up deciding, I'll tell you one thing...once they have the catalog, you will NOT make another single-unit sale on ANY PRODUCT they can successfully copy...and they'll hold up, block and prevent sales in China on those things until 'we send a technical representative or engineer' to them to 'show them why we designed this-or-that like we did'. He approved the tech transfer, they did EXACTLY what I said, and within a year, he left the company to 'lead a new company'...(probably forcing them to give away their technical catalogs, as well).
And another one how brand new motorcycles come with tyres that are of a poorer quality then if you were to buy the tyres separately. The pierelli mt60's that came on my bike only lasted 6000km, the next set I brought lasted well over 10,000km
Can confirm similar. I had some Dunlop Q3+ on a ninja. I put a little over 3k miles on them. I sold the ninja to my friend after I bought a brand new Z900. The Z900 came factory equipped with Dunlop roadsport 2s (which I hate). Coincidentally, he ordered roadsport 2s for the ninja to replace the now worn set of Q3+ since he was a non aggressive new rider and cheap. The oem road sport 2s that came on my Z barley lasted one season and 3600 miles before looking like trash. The road sport 2s he bought aftermarket for his ninja still looked virtually new at 3000 miles when he sold the bike even though 90% of his riding was straight highway 😡. The tires notably had different plant codes as well.
DUDE I am subbed to FLuuMP and played tons of rocket league a little while back. I subbed to this channel just by chance. That’s so crazy that they’re both you!!
I noticed in your "Bring A Trailer" segment a 1971 BMW R60/5 for sale for $6,000. I sold my 1971 BMW R60/5 last year for $5,000 through regular channels so it's not WAY out of line, at least for that particular bike. Regarding the Rossi, Lorenzo, Marquez story... Other than Lorenzo and Marquez no one knows for sure if there was collusion in a particular race. I doubt it would have been all season as it would have been near impossible to keep that secret that long. It was however a shame that Rossi, who had a penalty and started from the back of grid, didn't finish one position higher in that last race of the season for his 10th and final (as it turned out) chance at a MotoGP Championship.
A thoughtful conversationalist might enjoy talking to Mr. Rossi about the Ducati story and watch his ticks and blushes and grins like these here RU-vid CIA analysts, discern if he's bonkers 🇮🇹
Not a conspiracy theory, but the real thing, the FBI decided they were going to go after the president of the Hell's Angels-Sonny Barger. The story was told by the attorney who contacted Sonny and asked to represent him. I forget the attorney's name, but his last name started with a T. Like Terance or something. Anyway the feds sent in a guy undercover to contract a hit on some one. The Angels took his money, gave him a spanking and had a laugh. The feds arrested Sonny and jailed him. Turned out the undercover agent was a known jailhouse stooge who would say what ever the feds told him to, a herion addict and had faked his own death in Texas to avoid a murder rap there. The FBI's case was so full of holes that Sonny was never convicted.
I've got a much better story but I can't prove it. Kawasaki dumped a huge amount of their 2 stroke H2 750 triple engines and other parts into the sea sometime in the mid 1970s. Their idea was to get rid of racing competition for their 4 stroke bikes - that they were forced to sell due to pollution emission regulations on 2 strokes. They didn't want the 2 strokes to be supported for the next 10 years with spare parts and win against the models they were trying to sell. They also wanted the street riders to buy their 4 stroke bikes.
The point in regard to China and their practice of reverse engineering and copying is spot on. But this has been known for decades. Why anyone would import any of their copied junk is the real question. As for the rest of this video. It's a whole lot about nothing. That thing with Kawasaki and Triumph is bologna. That two cylinder design has been imitated so many times, it's amazing. Why not lump the Honda CB450 version in there also. Norton and BSA also had their own version.
The Triumph was never a copy of the Meriden bikes. It was a new and subsequently proven design. They didn’t need to copy Kawasaki - the look is always going to be convergent regardless of who makes it. Interesting video though.
6:14 Bob Dylan's Motorcycle Crash. Or he had a head injury as a result. Easily done on a motorcycle, and they can take some time to recover from. You have few outward symptoms, but things are shaken up quite a bit.
Race Teams from every aspect of racing have been Copying, Cheating, Having Team Rules if a team comes out with something new every other team complains about it, & if they can't get it removed, they "Blatantly" copy it, as long as there has been racing there has been cheating I do believe that this will continue.
Good work, Bart! A lot of people don’t realize the work that goes into QUALITY video production. (Yeah, don’t look at my channel 🙄) You’ve got a good voice for it, a nice touch with editing and most importantly, a niche. Gotta love classic bikes and hey, who doesn’t love a good conspiracy theory? 😎 Keep up the good work!
@@bartmotorcycleAbout the first motorcycle. Daimler's is the first motorcycle with an INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine. He is credited with inventing the INTERNAL COMBUSTION engine Thanks Bart
It's interesting how rumors get circulated. As for Bob Dylan's accident, the rumor I heard was that somehow in his wreck he crushed or damaged his voice box which spelled an end to his career. At least for a time. If you listen to his music, there is definitely a change to his style or sound when he sings. Which is why that rumor almost seems believable. But, if you had an accident that was severe enough to damage your neck or voice box I think you'd be taking a one way trip to the hospital.
I’m digging your videos. I’m currently on a Harley, but I’ve owned everything from dirt bikes, to high end sport bikes and everything in between. You’ve mentioned your from Oregon? Same here, Bend Oregon. Well….. lapine technically. Anyways. Love the videos man. I’ve gotten lost for hours at times!
Good friend was killed on a triumph, came up to a stop sign and hit the gear shift instead of the brakes. After he was killed the US transportation board outlawed them until they switched them to American standards. The triumph dealer in my town went out of business after that that happened.
Ohh, the Honda CB 305 was a copy of ............ what? And the CB 750 was a copy of ............? The Yamaha XS 650 looked a bit like a BSA 650, but was a far cry from it.
@@kasperkjrsgaard1447 the Honda shadow copied a sportster the Kawasaki Vulcans copied the entire Harley line up the Yamaha v-stars copied Harley the Yamaha bolt copied the sportster I’m not saying all their bikes were copies I’m just saying a lot of them were
@@johnsmith2179 But that’s american “bikes”. And besides the two wheels and a v-twin engine - refined at the japanese, agro cultural at the americans - there really wasn’t much anyone should wish to copy.
@@kasperkjrsgaard1447 the style is what the copied more than anything and all the metric cruisers sold pretty damn well if I remember right Harley actually sued over the shadow
How do you guys get the images "mirrored"? I've seen this on many sites where the writing within the video (Logos, signboards, etc.) is reversed - as if I was looking at a reflection. Bad editing or what?
yea the Chinese have been copying designs for pretty much anything that exists for years- one of the most common cases involving motorcycles is how 98% of Chinese pit bikes have an engine directly based off the Honda 50's engine (sometimes with a bigger bore) AND the frames are always nearly identical as well- even bikes that appear much bigger than a Honda 50 often just have bigger suspension, wheels, and bars. SSR especially makes their entire pit bike lineup as just different versions of a Honda 50 AND their 450 is pretty much a direct copy of Honda's earlier 450's 😂
I don't think Kawasaki wanted to copy the Triumph as much as they wanted to copy a retro look. Everyone seemed to be trying to make a motorcycle that would be recognized for it's 60s look. The Intruder from Suzuki, The W650 from Kawasaki, the Heritage from H-D or the Softtail. Along with bell bottom jeans and tie-dyed shirts.
The first Kawasaki (initially Meguro) four stroke twin from the 1960’s, the W1 was a licence built copy of the then current BSA A7 500cc twin. When the W650 was released, it harked back stylistically to that model. Hinkley Triumph had been resurrecting the odd name from their Meriden past, and some style cues in the 900 custom/cruiser models, but had resisted the calls for a new Bonnie for several years due to the reputation of the leaky, unreliable and underpowered old Meriden twins. (I have one, I’m allowed to critique them 😂) There is no way Triumph could have designed, tested and organised a full supply chain in just two years, so it’s obvious they had, despite denials, been working on one for a few years. Everything Bloor did since purchasing Triumph was aimed at keeping the name, but improving the reputation hence even changing the logo, and only bringing back the classic eyebrow and mouthorgan tank badges once the Bonnie’s were a couple of years into production.
If Dylan didn’t do that crash we most likely wouldn’t have gotten The Band and that definitely would have changed rock and music history like you said. Crazy to think how a guy taking a few years off could change music for the better
I actually don't have an issue with China knock offs. Copyright law as game theory only works if everyone plays, and China doesn't, keeps the rest of us honest.
Japanese manufacturers had an anti competitive group going. Honda made four strokes, Suzuki touring two strokes, Kawasaki, sporty two strokes and Yamaha, race bikes and a bit of both.
How about Harley-Davidson's claim that they were already selling motorcycles in 1903, but there is ZERO actual evidence that they were selling anything before 1905.
Incorrect Yamaha did not copy a Triumph twin. Their bikes were the dkw copy ya1 and the 250 that was basically two 125 doubled-up. They bought another Motorcycle company that made a copy of the German Hosk, it was a 500 twin overhead cam, they enlarged it to 650 and it became the first 4-stroke motorcycle which lasted almost 20 years in production in an age when designs rarely lasted more than three.
Excellent ideas (or suggestions of conspiracies), but what about way-back and the late sixties and early seventies and the demise of the British motorcycle industry. There's got to be some sort of conspiracy about that? Make your suggestions.
China used to copy golf clubs a week after they were first shown at the golf shows in the states, inferior copies came on to the market, they sold because they were cheap, now most of the major golf club manufacturers have their clubs built in China 😳
I’m not sure how your argument about Triumph and the W650 makes sense. You think the W650 is more like a vintage Triumph (and I agree, btw)...but then argue that modern Triumph is a copy of the W? For that to make any sense, you’d have to point to something on the new Bonnie that’s on the W, but not on the old Bonnie. What would that be exactly? I’ve actually owned vintage Bonnies and new ones, and come very close to getting a W650 for the kickstart and better looking head and valve train area...but went for the extra hp in the Triumph. Plus I prefer the 70’s style Triumph with the Dunstalls and solid wheels to the peashooters and wires (go figure!).
I had a '59 Triumph 650 push rod engine which continued build until '73 (I had a tiger, single carb, sweet bike and later a '76 bonnie, not as good)when they upgraded to the 750 vert twin w/overhead cams continuing until the early 80's. In 01 I bought a 865 VT Triumph which I still have. OHC and fuel injection. The W650 was a poor copy of the old bonnies, so that conspiracy theory is just wrong.
