One of my favorite movie "ah-ha" moments is the masquerade ball, realizing Bruce and Selina are the only ones not wearing traditional masks because Batman and Catwoman are their true selves.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I wonder... They both end up unmasking at the climax. Burtons Batman is about duality, where neither side is the only true side. Recall the date with Selina: "there are two truths." Recall the Siousie song at the masked ball: "follow your heart....but how can you, when it's split in two?"
Yeah, the 5 falcons plot, could be a main plot, with introductions of 5 alter-villains. (who are rich enough to be powerful....in a bad way.) 🤔 maybe falcon four belonging to the joker?
@@tattoo_suit6197 Yeah I think it comes down to balance. If it's too accurate what's the point but if it's too different it may as well be a different idea all together. The burton films really strike that balance of being unique while still being recognizable as batman.
@@peterriverajr6899 well at the time of the film's release Batman had already established the no killing rule in the comics and he wipes out several people in the film. On top of that Catwoman isn't accurate to the comics either she didn't go through a cat Resurrection process and wasn't unhinged like she is in the film. Also the max shreck character isn't in the comics at all he's just a creation from the movie. Not to mention Commissioner Gordon who while played decently by Pat Hingle is a very hands-off version of the character that isn't similar to his comic book counterpart at all.
@@bigkmoviesandgames unpopular opinion, I liked Forever better than Returns. Returns was too much “Tim Burton.” It was literally a repeat of Edward Scissorhands with the Penguin. Forever actually gave us more screen time with Batman/Bruce Wayne
I loved Batman Returns as a kid. I remember watching it over and over again, being obsessed with Michelle Pfeifer as Catwoman. I always wanted a 3rd movie with Catwoman coming back. I didn't even realize the movie wasn't as well-loved as the original. I guess I was just too young to pick up on it.
I'm still obsessed with Batman Returns to this day at 32 years old. I wore out the vhs tape of this movie that's how much i watched it as a kid in the 90s. People back then were too sensitive because i personally think Batman Returns is still better then even Batman 89
Although she wasn't supposed to appear in Batman Forever, Tim Burton was trying to work on a solo Catwoman movie, and unlike his Batman 3, there was actually a real script, and you can find it online by Daniel Waters. His plot was about Catwoman moving away from Gotham and into a Las Vegas-esque city that's dominated by male superheroes. Selina works at a casino and has no memories of being Catwoman or being with Bruce. (She doesn't even remember the bullets in her from Max.) Eventually, a mysterious woman who watches her makes her remember and it's revealed her mother also has cat powers and was keeping it a secret to her daughter. We then learn the male superheros are actually villains, and Catwoman has to prove to the villains that a female hero will forever be superior to the male ones. And at the end, every female civilian watch over Gotham with their own homemade costumes, watching over the streets for perverted men. (Basically, it was a feminist story.) And Tim Burton HATED it. Despite that though, the script was also written in July 1995, the same day when Batman Forever came out, and because that film was made for kids and made more money than the last film, the hyper violent and dark feminist satire Catwoman movie was never gonna happen. Burton even suggested a Catwoman movie that was low budget, shot in black and white and was a jewel heist movie. So Burton and Waters clearly had creative differences on the project and they split once Burton got attached to Superman Lives in 1996/1997.
And that's where I come in; as one of the few Batman fans, who truly loved this film from the start. I couldn't get enough of this movie, and like the previous film, could quote the entire film from beginning to end.
I am loving this alternative version. It's truly connected to the first film, but would probably work best as a limited series as it's really dense in story and characters.
Wow. That was a huge treat! Thanks for exploring that script. I've never heard of it. I love these "alternate realities." One summer I printed out and read the original back to the future script while on vacation with no TV or internet. It made me actually appreciate the thought process and even the final film more.
Actually parts of this version of the story did show up for the comic "Batman '89 " except Penguin was replaced with Harvey Dent/ Two Face but lots of elements from that script was put into that comic such as black Robin acting as his own vigilante, alternative Catwoman,people of underprivileged neighborhood being attacked upon, among other things. Seek that one out if you can it's worth a read.
Wow! That would have been a crazy movie. I remember people were upset at the tone of Batman Returns as it was. I imagine they would have absolutely flipped their lids if this version had come out instead.
I’ve always loved Batman Returns, ever since I saw it in the cinema. This was a great video Minty - loved the editing and graphics portraying the script - great work
I remembered seeing this as a kid and I enjoyed this for what it was. I also enjoyed hearing Channel Awesome's fanscription version of this and to be far the Batman 89 comic did try to continue the Batman returns story.
I think it’s incredible that RU-vidrs can now us AI image generators to better showcase what they are talking about. Minty is the first person I’ve really seen do it at a high level. Well done mate!
@@jameshill3403 that’s the point. It’s as if an artist drew concept art for the movie. They’re going to be somewhat generic drawings if there hasn’t been actors cast yet. Same with these images. They capture the gist of the look they might be going for. They’re not supposed to be 100% accurate or realistic.
I don't think this script would have worked as a two hour movie. I think you're right that there were too many characters and too many elements. However, now that more streaming series are being created for longer more in depth story lines, I bet this work would great as a 6 or 8 episode series where a streaming service could really fill out the story.
The movie came out in the summer of '92. How is it a Christmas movie? Yes, it's set at Christmastime but that don't make it a Christmas movie. By any means.
I’ve worked in the practical special effects industry for many years now and have been watching/listening to your videos all day while I work and absolutely love them. Ive been a subscriber for a while and I’m so glad you keep doing these videos. They remind me why I do what I do. Anyway, I grew up with this movie and it’s still my favorite super hero movie of all time. Keep it up👏
I love Batman Returns, and I also loved this video! I'd be really interested to see more videos of you talking about what-could-have-been movies, such as Nottingham, the original script for Gladiator 2, discarded Superman movies, Danny Boyle's James Bond movie, etc.
The five ravens family thing is certainly interesting since it closely resembles a the Court of Owls that would later show up in the comics. That storyline took things into an even deeper and more conspired plot but still had everything else with raven thing would have save the the treasure. I'm honestly a bit conflicted. I get that the Owl choice was based on a natural predator of a bat, is more symbolic of wisdom/graceful power for the rick socialites and allowed for thier hitman to be called Talon but I still like the raven a lot too. A group of tricky manipulators in the shadows, with eyes always on a shiny prize for themselves would be fitting with a raven motif and I feel the animal can be just as or even more imposing than an owl if done right. The dark feathers, beady eyes and long beak come off more imposing and sinister than an owl even if they are the more physically equipped for brutality. Perhaps an elsewlrds instead then..a comic where the bat family and court of owls are one in the same and based on ravens. THAT would honestly be kind of cool in my opinion. The court controls Gothem but a part of this instituted by the Wayne family is to reduce crime but through more brutal means and white-collar manipulation than Bruce would allow in the Earth 1 universe.
I love "Batman Returns". The first Time Burton "Batman" offering was awesome, and that much is absolutely undeniable, but just in terms of the soundtrack, it was really funky with all of that Prince. Thank God for Danny Elfman. Also, don't get me wrong; Prince was a legend and I love his music. I just felt that the selection of Siouxsie and the Banshees as a sort of theme for "Batman Returns" added to the Gothic nature of Batman as he came to be depicted in all the coolest Batman films. Danny DeVito is... well, he's Danny DeVito, isn't he? A better penguin couldn't have been brought to life by anyone else and in that suit with that makeup, he was just oozing creepiness and cruel intentions while DeVito still managed to bring a real sense of pathos to the character. And yes, I get the violence thing. That whole, "..Things could be worse. I could be gushing blood from my nose," bit was a bit of something, wasn't it? And Catwoman - Michelle Pfeiffer? Meow indeed! (BOOM!) I suppose a lot of hard-core Batfans could take exception to the number of villains Batman somewhat inadvertently murdered (I remember a chap who got set alight by the Batmobile's rear rocket,) and I think the lore has always been pretty strict about the Bat's unwillingness to kill. Still, it was sick. Tim Burton was young and bursting with balls and ideas as big as them and if by some twist of fate, he hadn't gotten the directing gig for those first two "Batman" films, we might still be watching Batman and Robin boogying down with their adversaries at the drop of a jukebox needle against a neon backdrop and Jiminy Cricket, Minty, that would be intolerable! I wonder what ever might've happened to that "Beetlejuice" sequel people were making so much noise about about a year or two ago.
Thank you so much for this video Minty. Batman Returns is my favourite Batman movie so it was nice to hear about this other version we almost had. Keep up the good work mate. 👍
The comic run of Legends of the Dark Knight vol. 1 #21-23 has a storyline called, "Faith," that features a similar group of Gotham's youth using Batman as inspiration to become a vigilante gang. There was a crossover run ( among the different Bat-related books of the time ) called, "Night of the Owls," in Batman vol. 2 #8-9 that has some similarity with the Raven story Minty mentioned.
I really like the raven statue storyline and don't find it confusing at all. And it's a nice tie in to the first movie. I'm assuming Carl Grissom would've been revealed to be a decendant of one of the five families
Loved both Burton films. This alternate version does look interesting. I understand Tim changing it to fit his style. Twas a pleasure working on this one too.
Cat Women’s bite paralyzing him was actually kinda cool because a real house cat’s bite can sometimes unalive other animals. Even if that bite itself wasn’t fatal, cats can have all kinds of toxic cooties. So that’s kinda accurate in a way. Cats often leave their prey stunned and they later pass from the bites.
Meh. Cats tend to stalk and K!LL their pray, INSTANTLY. They are very efficient k!llers. SO much so... that certain Birds, and other wild creatures have been nearly or completely wiped out, in certain areas... where lots of cats are present. When you see cats attack each other... even when its "Play", you will see that they Bite the throat / neck, as well as use their rear claws to try to Tear open the other cats under-belly (guts). They are intelligent, and know what weak / soft-targets are, and their Lethal attacks, are based on that. They also know Humility... which is why, even when the are angered in "Play", they almost always refrain from going "too-far". That said, there are many cats that have been destroyed, or seriously wounded, from severe street-fights, with other cats. IMO, cats that have been infected, probably dont live that long.. and probably are not that good at fighting, as a result. I could be mistaken... but it really depends on the type of Illness, and to what degree that it has progressed. Of course, domestic House cats are also not an example that should be compared against a "Cat Woman". One should think more in line with a larger "Feline" such as a Panther, Cheetah, Lion.. etc. As house cats rarely tend to try to fight with much larger and stronger beasts... and even in trying, only tend to generate minimal / non-lethal damages.
The frame-up subplot is actually a major part of Batman Returns, and takes up a significant portion of the film. The problem is that it isn't properly resolved and basically comes to nothing, which is a shame (although I have some thoughts on that and believe that Batman was still a fugitive by the end of the film, and that the Batsignal we see at the end, was calling him in for questioning).
As someone who lived through the release of Batman Returns I loved it as a kid. Even had these Batman sheets that had “schematics” for the Batmobile… they were the coolest.
Great Video Mr. Minty!! I'm like you I love to learn more in Depth with movies and alternative versions of the movies. I'm such a movie nerd.....lol It's very interesting to to learn more about this film in descriptive ways and all. Looking forward to other "alternative" versions of other movies!! Peace ✌️ Out!!
I know we’re in a different Batman universe but wouldn’t mind seeing this particular script revived. I think audiences today can handle its strong themes.
I agree that this concept would work better as a standalone graphic novel. Maybe even an animated film. Ultimately, I'm glad Tim Burton gave us the Batman Returns we know today.
I've always thought that had Burton not returned, this script would have had the story they went with. Imagine how daunting it must have been to develop the second Batman movie after the original was so self-contained. I think it's an interesting read, and I am surprised Hamm didn't incorporate elements of it into the Batman '89 comic.
Sounds better than half they’ve actually made over the years.. Never heard of any of this before. It sounds decent. Seeing more Michelle Pfeiffer as CatWomen being depicted as described would certainly have been exciting. I was about 11 years old when this Movie showed up. It’s still my favorite along with 89. Burton’s Gotham is still the best. The best balance of fantasy city made to be real and walked with in. Over the Top characters who are still believable in their motivations. Iconically Legendary.. Who can forget the Parade at the end of the first Movie.? The Parade that ends with the Joker pulling out the overly large hand cannon to take out the Batwing.? To have the next Movie encompass the likes of Devito, Pfeiffer, and Walken. After just watching Nicholson play the Joker.. Batman’s franchise may never see better days for People playing these roles. Carrey as Nigma and Thurman as Ivy… Also did very well in their earlier films. I get the Kilmer & Clooney Movies mixed up a lot.. I didn’t have a problem with the performance of the actors playing Batman in these Movies. More how the directors made it more like the version from what is it the 60’s or earlier I think. I still like the one with Enigma and how he was using T.V.’s to mess with everyone. These were good Batman stories.. With him dealing with over the top situations that threaten the whole city… Anymore the stories seem more personal to Batman.., with him just dealing with the Army of bad guys of which he’s dealing with.. Or someone they’ve found to be personal to him.. I believe the writers have gotten away from using the City itself as a character… Which in my opinion should be considered to be a more valuable asset to a story teller of Batman’s World. My opinion. As I wrote., these two Movies made an impact upon me at an age where long lasting impacts are made. To learn anything significantly new about them at this stage is rare and usually enjoyable. A few laughs, smiles, and WT…. F’s.? Like Marlon Wayne’s playing Robin.? 🤔 🤦. Yeah., I don’t know about that one. Not saying I dislike the guy for any specific reason.. I just don’t think he fits that role. 👍✌️. Thanks for sharing Minty.
Agreed, 1989 will always be the best Batman movie… but I didn’t care for Returns. It was literally a repeat of Edward Scissorhands with the Penguin… too much Tim Burton, not enough Batman
@@nsasupporter7557 I'll definitely agree with the "too much tim Burton" aspect. It definitely felt like Edward scissor hands or nightmare before Christmas. But I guess I just have too much love for Michael Keaton as Batman haha
To me Batman 89 was the best Batman ever. As a kid I remember going to see Batman Returns and thinking "what the hell was that". Even today I love 89 but not too impressed with Returns. I think WB gave too much creative control over to Burton and what we got was a mess. Thank goodness we have 89 and The Animated Series 👍
There's The Batman 89 comic aka Batman 3 comic that picked up what was left of with Batman Returns ignoring the events of Batman Forever and Batman and Robin.
Minty, I would like to say thanks for being a great fan of the movies that I have also enjoyed over the years. Also I have learned a few things from you about some of my favorite films that I have never heard before. Have you ever thought about doing a video or two about the sword and sorcery genre that was a staple of much of the 80's? Might I suggest Excalibur, the Sword and the Sorcerer, Beastmaster, or Ladyhawk to name a few.
Could be updated and be owls instead if Ravens..begin a good Court of Owls storyline. I also have to say I did enjoy the underlying aspect of the psyche in the Batman Returns we got with each persona having a physical form. Penguin being the scared neglected orphan, Catwoman being the alter ego, outside the law vigilante, and Bruce being the man reconciling the parts of him that make up who he is. Which is his true self the man, the orphan, or the bat? It never really got to be explored, but it IS in there. Even Max is a part of it as the face Bruce has to show the public. A shrewd businessman. There is a whole thing about this out in some rabbit hole.
Enjoyed this video and all this info I had no idea about. I’m glad none of that other stuff was in the movie. I still love Batman Returns and think it turned out perfect.
I saw in theaters when released. I'm 41. I was 10 years old at the time. I went alone. I hadn't really any friends at the time. I remember the day vividly. On the way back, I ran into a classmate. Not a friend. I told him I had just watched Batman Returns. He didn't believe me. I hated that kid.
I heard the original treatment was supposed to have Billy Dee Williams play Two Face, with the Joker even making an appearance in a full body cast at a courtroom appearance, causing the explosion that caused Harvey’s scarring
WOW… That was REALLY cool. I’ve noticed that a lot of the original ideas actually made it in to future Batman films. So in a sense, we did actually get to see some of these ideas on the mainstream live action Batman films!! I absolutely LOVE watching videos on “What Could Have Been”.
I definitely think this version of Batman Returns would have been interesting to see, with a few minor changes, it could have been even better than the first movie. I think they could have used the ravens story line to be the center plot of the movie. I also believe this darker and more phycological based plot could have been a good way to introduce Solomon Grundy who was in possession of one of the ravens in his sewer dwelling. Silas Gold, who is Solomon Grundy, could have been one of the original heads of the five families that fleeced Gotham. Being murdered and dumped into Slaughter swamp, in the outskirts of Gotham, comes back as Solomon Grundy to wreak havoc on the populace. Which puts him in direct conflict with not only Batman but Catwoman and Penguin as well. Great Video.
Thank you for this, Minty! Big Catwoman fan. I prefer Catwoman’s storyline in Batman Returns. Yes the motive of her working with Oswald is much clearer in Batman 2 but the transformation from a push over to the final push given her transcendence into a supernatural psychotic strength was iconic. She also is not pure evil like Batman 2 was describing her. Catwoman is duality, so I’m glad they didn’t present her like that or I doubt many of us millennials would hold her character is such high regard today.
I'm seeing a lot of criticisims of the AI art. Personally, I like a lot of the choices you made for the AI art (particularly the look of some of the wealthy businessmen characters, and Robin's look).
