100 watts vs. 5 watts: Can you hear the difference? 

I had been a ham for years when I first thought about trying to hear myself on a station from WebSDR. It was absolutely incredible to me hearing my voice from the static of a station a thousand miles away from me. That first time actually hearing myself,my own voice and signal.... just mind-blowing to me!

Good demo. Could you do a similar test with voice?

Informative demo. Your test was done on 40M NVIS, which is basically travelling up and down to the several hundred mile range. It will be a different story for DX on, say, 20M, which can result in absorption of the weaker 5W signal and not allow it to the receiving station. This is the reason there are amplifiers. This is not to say one cannot get DX without 100W and/or an amplifier. But....as with everything in the physical world....more is usually more, except when there are exceptions like NVIS. You do demonstrate that it is not always important to default to using an amp, and one may do better with a judicial use of it. 73 de Scott W1AL

Hi Cliff, your test has nothing wrong to it. Except, you chose 40m to do NVIS with a station 250miles away. I do SOTA a lot and most of my NVIS 40m contacts sound great. Why? There's no bouncing on earth, just refraction straight back down. Once you choose 15m or 20m and hit a couple of earth bounces, your signal on the other side degrades significantly. That's when power matters most. If you do the long distance test with salt water in between (West Coast to Japan) the power might not matter that much either. It's a question of path signal loss vs transmitted power to overcome the receiving base noise signal level, as you mention.

As already mentioned by another follower, good to see you back Cliff flying the flag for the QRP guys and gals. I spend 99% of my time running 5watts or less down to milliwatt levels with my old TS850SAT ! I have three very nice amplifiers gathering dust (Acom 1000 / OM Power 2000 and a old Ameritron 811H) which will get sold one day as the trill of having a CW qso with QRP beats the pants off being the loudest on the band any day of the week. Best 73s.

Interesting demonstration. I see your point. But still I believe there are more factors to be considered. For instance NCDXF/IARU International Beacon Project transmits at 100, 10, 1 Watts and 100 milliwatts. You can clearly hear the difference. The distance between the stations, propagation conditions and what band we transmit on..etc etc.

Well, the QRPers know this already, but your video is really useful to point the doubters at. Life is NOT too short for QRP. Nice work Cliff.

Hi Cliff, good demonstration. You were wise to conduct the entire test within a minute's time, which avoids most propagation variations. 1 to 100 watts is only a 20 dB change, which is a relatively small range for a receiver. The only change the receiver will show is a proportional noise floor change. With a narrow IF bandwidth and on-off keying detected by a product detector, there is lots of signal-to-noise margin. SSB, being AM, has a linear detection rate (unlike narrowband FM, which logrithmic). The product detector actually permits detecting signals below the noise floor. So, if you want a better S+N ratio, use a narrower IF bandwidth. CW only needs 50 to 100 Hz.

This exactly the video I needed to see! Thanks so much for taking the time to make this video. Watts and S units for CW was a difficult thing for me to wrap my head around. This made all the difference in the world. 25W on my 891 is plenty.

It's what we've always known of course, but great to actually hear the difference in this demonstration. Thanks Chris and welcome back.

Great video, Cliff. Thank you for coming back and for creating this valuable content! -KI6M

Great to see you again Cliff!! Thanks for the informative video!

Been waiting forever for you to come back!!!

Cliff, nice to see you making videos again I have always enjoyed them. God bless you, 73, Dan KM6CQ

Thanks, very good demonstration. I don't understand how they sell amps for thousands of dollars.

This is a great demonstration! Brilliant! Thanks very much!

So glad to see you back!!

NIce video. Glad to see you doing them again!

Great Video, I was so impressed by your results I watched it twice. I have a whole new prespective about low power and QRP CW. thank you W5CI

You are back! I’ve been waiting for you to get back on YT. You’re a very instrumental about two years ago when I was doing QRP during the time when there was very slow activity. Great to see you again.

Thank you for this impressive demonstration. My usual power output is either 5W with FT818 or x5105 or 20W with FT891 - on very rare occasions I go up to 50W or 100W as I operate at least 90% portable with battery power only.

Being a QRP operator for most of my ham time I would agree use only the power you need to make a contact. The antenna really makes the difference because the more RF you send out the more SNR the signal has. So work on efficient antennas and you can really get away with 100mW for some contacts. note Cliff good to see you back!

Really great to see and hear your relaxed demeanor here on YT. I really like the way you take a relatively small subject thereby keeping your videos short, easy to understand, and pleasant to watch. Thank you. --Mark, KE6BB

excellent video, no messing about . direct and to the point .

Very interesting! The interface of that WebSDR you mention is outstanding, thanks for that. 73

Keep up the good work Cliff!

Very, very interesting test!!!

I used to be 1500 watts in the old days in 1980 neighbours use too complain and now I’m 1 watt qrp and im having a blast of fun no high power rigs any more only qrp radios love it.

Nice demonstration Cliff 👍

Good video Cliff. It demonstrates that QRP can still make contacts and be fun depending on conditions and the type of antenna. I have built up from kits a few rigs.

I got a little USDX transceiver form my kids for Christmas. I’ve been having a lot of fun testing on SDRs and checking into local nets. 3-5w does way more than I would have thought. I’m in BC Canada and longest contacts are Alaska and Arkansas. Had a hour long QSO with a station in Chicago on 10m with 2w. Solid copy and not one fade. Fun fun.

In 1987 I worked WAS with 1-watt output from my Heath HW-9 over about 18 months just casually working stations nights & weekends. I had a 40m rotatable dipole @ 50 ft & a 3 element 15m yagi at 50 ft, that was a big factor in making the job easy. A couple nights ago I completed my Tuna Tin 2 40m QRPp transmitter kit from QRPme, tonight I measured 318mw from it. I plan to try it on POTA and winter field day this weekend, I got a handful of my favorite 40m crystals ready to go.

This is brilliant. I'm mainly a QRP contester and I've always told new guys that at 5 watts you are louder - much louder - than you think you are. Breaking pileups with 5 watts is easy if you add a touch of operator skills.

Great to see your doing well. I operate about 80% qrp and about 80% CW, and only occasionally digital. I enjoy seeking and making contact with weak signal stations, dx, pileups. POTA/SOTA and the QFox Summer and winter Fox hunts all wile using 5w to wire antennas, a 40m delta loop with a remote tuner at the feed point of the antenna, making it all band and a Hexbeam at only 12 ft. I am no longer surprised how effective this setup is. I never announce that I am qrp until I give the other station a signal report so as not to attract attention with "qrp." I have no issue increasing power so as to make an exchange or conversation easier or if 5w just doesn't get it. Oh and in my sometimes noisy RF urban setting, I am not above using a web remote receiver such as RCForb Client.

Thank you! Very interesting!

Many years ago, I was transmitting on 40M CW with a tube final input power of 15W when a station running a full gallon answered me. He was shocked to find out how little power I was running, so he turned off his linear, then dropped his power further. We had a long and enjoyable rag chew at low power. Not to say that high power has no place, but just that QRP can work just as well when conditions are right.

Great idea for testing

Great video as always! I've always enjoyed your videos and part of what got me so interested in amateur radio back in the day. You mentioned your much higher noise floor in the neighborhood. After a long break, I fired up HF and it seems my noise floor is like S5 to s6. It looks terrible on SDR. I'm wondering what changed and if it's just to be expected with so many neighbors in close proximity. It's almost like I have to go to parks and stuff just to operate.

Well done and fairly scientific

Thanks for the video.

There's a big difference between what 5 vs. 100 Watts sounds like using CW, and 5 vs. 100 Watts using phone. CW will cut through the noise when phone won't!

Great testing I been telling people this for years Even said this yesterday People are so Shocked when they can Talk st 1 watt with no issues

Nice video. Thank you.

Great video, Thanks

Great example of what QRP can really do. I use QRP about 95% of the time. Occasionally I will bump it up above 5W if I am using SSB and not getting anywhere. Love the video's glad you are back creating them again. I look forward to what else you have to share. 73

Excellent video. Cool, collected, and let the data speak for itself. I really want to see an SSB comparison. CW is great for clarity of the principle, but I really want to see SSB under your same setup here.

New ham here, and this is my first view of this channel. I use that same SDR from Dahlonega from here in West Georgia. I was expecting a phone comparison, but this is a reminder to learn CW. On to Part 2!

Hi Cliff, as usual great content! Another good tool to do these checks is the reverse beacon network, not as visual appealing like using a websdr but it does the trick as it can report your SNR. BTW You convinced me long ago about QRP and also to learn CW, I just ordered a QMX from qrp-labs, now I need to figure out how to have a temporary antenna or something here on my apartment as I can't put anything on my balcony, and as in normal european fashion my apartment is pretty much a faraday cage, stell, glass and concrete all around, so my alexloop is useless inside of the apartment. 73s EI5HPB

Would be interesting to see the same demo with voice.

Awesome demonstration! If you are designing and building radio equipment, you can save slot of money and effort building for cheaper 1 to 5 watt transistors then building with 100 watt transistors. Yes there are amplifier designs that use irf510s but you get between 40 and 70 watts only if you supply 28 volts at about 4 amps or use irf530s.

I was doing similar testing last week after bringing a Kenwood TS-670 quadbander back to life, only I was testing SSB. The TS-670 is a 10-watt rig, whereas my TS-430S is rated at 110 watts SSB (realistically 100-120, depending on which band I am on). I'm located in Indiana and picked various locations to listen from. My comparisons were on 7/10/15 meters, as these are the bands shared between the two rigs, and I used the same dipoles on each rig. What I found was that there was little audible difference from east of the great plains to the east coast if the noise floor was decent. The west coast, Mexico, and northwestern Canada was still readable/usable on the TS-670, but not as good as the TS-430S. Crossing the oceans, however, the TS-670 can barely be heard, if at all. A lot of that has to do with my antennas being in compromised locatins at compromised heights, but it did give the 100+ watts the advantage. On the other hand (and I know output wattage has nothing to do with this), they were identical at receiving. As it stands with my current antenna situation, with the TS-430S, "If I can hear 'em, I can work 'em." With the TS-670, I can hear plenty outside North America that I can't work. That will likely change a bit in the spring when I focus on some antennas specifically for the TS-670.

Glad to see you again!!!!!!!!!!! de KE5ES

Power is basically negated if you have an awesome connectivity and minimization of loss between transmitter & antenna. Basically comes down to the distribution model you're employing to get that signal out. Nice video

Yet another reason I like QRP!

Glad to have you back with your well made and practical videos.

Excellent

I like how it proves out in the SNR measurements. 100w to 1w is a 20dB cut. 100W tx was showing about 33-34dB SNR. 1W tx showed 13-14 dB SNR…that’s 20 dB!

Nice video. Very well demonstrated. 73

Thanks for the test via WebSDR idea. Did not hear you mention antenna used for the demo. Thanks de N4KGY

I did something exactly like this last week with WebSDR. I used 27.555Mhz USB with less than 25 watts, tuned into an SDR in Santa Clarita California (Los Angeles area). I would transmit code from my home here in Wisconsin with my little radio with a literal magnetic style antenna set atop an old PC case sitting up on my roof, being fed through an antenna tuner, and I could hear my signal, on the SDR, in Los Angeles, from my home in Wisconsin.

Yes, for medium range stations as in NVIS yes, but for DX stations where your first hop has to travel more than 2,000 miles before the signal ever reaches land again (Im stuck on a rock in the middle of the Pacific Ocean), the power makes more of a difference, especially with SSB. For CW, it isn't quite as noticeable, but getting through the noise floor is rough if I drop to 10 wats or lower. This is why I am trying to learn Morse code now, so I can reach the mainland US on a more consistent basis with a portable radio doing POTA activations.

Key word, above the noise floor, sometimes you need power to overcome this. If the receiver is causing AGC action then the audio level remains the same, that is what AGC does, once the signal falls below when the AGC action ceases the receiver gain is at maximum and the volume starts to drop as the signal weakens, so the test has nothing to do with TX power but receiver gain and AGC action.

Very interesting!

It is more about the antenna. With a gain antenna, it is pretty easy to ERP 300-400 watts with a 100 watt radio. The other side of this. Get your 5 watt radio and try to break into a QSO on 160. Then try 100. BIG difference. I don't run any amplification (yet) but I do notice a big difference in 5,20, and 100 watts when the bands get dicey or the antenna is a compromise. I do enjoy working low power but it is always a bit of a disappointment to set up portable to realize you can't work where you want or who you want. Usually with 100 watts there is no problems in communication reliability. That is what the military found out long ago also! Thanks for the video.

I find that using 100watts is mainly to overcome any QSB that is present.. very good demo. I'm looking to by a new HF radio and I was thinking 20 watts max really.

A great demonstration. Thank you for that! You could/should have done that in SSB too. That would be another eye opener to all those „life‘s too short for QRP“ guys, I bet.

Going to give 1 watt CW a try on my next portable op just for grins. Usually it’s 5-10w CW or SSB on the KX3, 20-30w on the 991A.

Great video! Very instructional for new HAMs. Thanks for sharing, 73 PA5BAS

Thanks I think I am going to check this site out and see if my puny station is being heard somewhere

I use my Icom IC-705 with 5 or 10 watts to work POTA stations from home quite often and have a lot of them in the log.

I've used that web SDR before. It's a nice one. 👍

Another fun exercise like this is to listen to the NCDXF beacons. They transmit at 100W, 10W, 1W, and 0.1W in succession. While getting a feel for band conditions around th globe, you can also appreciate how much a 10W signal sounds like a 100W signal on CW. And 5W is only 3 dB below 10W, which is to my ears the smallest perceptible change in SNR that I really notice.

NVIS vs low take off angle. Apples and oranges comparson. NVIS plus CW is the best possible combination within the first bounce foot print.

Been telling my QRO friends about this for years but they never listen. I love when doing POTA they want to do 100 watts because they, "Want to make contacts". I told them anywhere from 1-10 will snag all you need AND save your battery big time.

Welcome back OM! Nice presentation and put your milliwatts into a better antenna (if you can) and you'll be just as surprised at the results😉

Can I suggest using a websdr that isnt in your near field radiation pattern. say 3 times the distance so it is hearing your far field radiation? The difference would be more noticable. having said that QRP can work great if you have a good antenna system

Back before remote SDR receivers were available.....and before I was even licensed as a Ham, I experimented with CB DX using an "export" Ranger 2950 capable of about 10 watts. One surprise was using the UK CB channels in their legal FM-only mode. I have a whole drawer full of QSL cards from. UK CB contacts. When everybody was saying "you can't talk Skip using FM mode" ....I was doing it every day with excellent results. Now I have a license and all my contacts are strictly legal but I encourage others to try out unorthodox transmission modes and still am a huge QRP fan. My advice to successful QRP is pay attention to antenna design. "Go large, or go home" is my best tip. And the horizontal loop antenna using 450 Ohm Ladder line and a 4:1 balun into an antenna tuner is my all time favorite DX antenna. (Ground and Disconnect equipment when not in actual use or bad weather)

Between living in deep rural nowhere and having a shack full of chokes and ferrites, my noise floor on 10 meters is incredibly low. I remember giving a guy in New Zealand a 4-1 signal report on Field Day SSB and he was genuinely angry. Get the floor low enough, you can read almost anything, and hunting weak signal is a fun sport on its own. I've talked 1,000 miles 4 watts AM carrier CB during a solar event, with good reports. With the right floor and conditions, not much power is needed. The caveat is, what is the noise floor? Before I got my ticket, I did field experiments with CB LOS. Ferrites helped to lower the already low noise floor, and with that I sought how far and how good 4 watt AM carrier could do. I was impressed the miles of coverage a full 9 foot whip on a car and a 5/8ths base station could do. But, when I finally got a 25 watt carrier "kicker" to finish my experiments, it became very clear just how much of a difference an S unit makes, and how much further, how much more trees and minor obstacles it could make through. I am a firm believer in "MOAR POWER". Your point is true, once over the noise floor, more power is overkill. But many seem to take this too far and suggest that 3dB means nothing, even some saying an S unit is nothing. But anyone who has fought for a signal around the noise floor quickly realizes that every dB counts when you are pulling signals out of the weeds. Those that scoff at double the power, "a mere 3 dB", are equally as wrong as those who say that you need 1,500 watts to talk to anyone straight, or have a good readable signal. The old rule about using as much power as you need always applies. Don't create more noise, don't waste energy with overkill. But, we have those little switches to turn on the amplifiers for a reason.... QRP is fun and effective, but it needs to remember its limitations.

Yet we still hear two stations, both running high power talking to each other, even bragging about running full power.

Thank for the nice demo. It also puts into perspective the curious obsession some people have with being at least S9 +40dB; give them a plain old S9 and they'll think something's wrong with their station!🙂 73 VK2SKY

I've also found that the best time to run QRP is during a contest . I've made contacts as far as Alaska and Finland with as little as 1/2 a watt (phone ONLY) from VK4 . People ask me "Why do you not just use your full power ?" (it's only 10 watts) . Well it's simple really , I'm the guy that likes to "Do More With Less" . It might be easy to shoot fish in a barrel with a shotgun , I prefer to try and get them in a swimming pool with a slingshot . I've found out many years ago the only difference between 100 and 10 watts was about a 1/2 S unit . 73's to all De VK4GTX

Good video. But you have to acknowledge that you are using CW. CW has a narrow bandwidth - hundreds of hertz. This means that the noise floor of the receiver will be pretty good. = KTB. If you were to use a different form or mode the results would be different. So CW is the way to go for QRP. Other modes like FT8 will work good too as they use integration to improve the S/N ratio. Great video and thanks.

Nice video. Please play limbo with the reverse beacon. I'm sure it would make an even more enlightening video.

The power output don't increase the quality if you want better quality then change the microphone but if you want increase your range with the power you use then just do high gauge wire or really low loss coaxial as like #ECOFlex10 coaxial antenna. Depending on the quality of antenna depends on how far you transmit & receive I find many are not using high gain antennas to increase range & depend on using high power which I can do 20-25miles in built up area on 1w with #ECOFlex10 used as #PMR446 rubberduck antenna cut to 16cm in length bout 10-15miles on commercial 3db gain antenna on 1w.

There are a few other variables that needed to be considered : Antennas in use at the RX and TX location (gain, height agl / radiation pattern) etc Propagation conditions at the time of the test Loss of feedline, you might be txing 100W but how much wattage is being seen at the antenna? Very simply though not a bad test

Good Demo! I'm a staunch QRPer (build my own), but I have been having problems getting POTA contacts (made 14 contacts with 80W, NONE with 5W). Maybe a better demo would be at a more distant RBN, where it was barely readable at 100W - see if you get through at 5...

would it be enjoyable to run just 10m even during solar minimum?

I am no "troll" and to fully modulate an SSB signal, you have to put out the power that your radio is used to use. For tube radios, that is necessary. For completely solid state rigs, you can use whatever power you can turn down to. I have been happy with 80 watts out for years. This is on Ham and D.O.D. frequencies. I think that lesser power outputs really work for Ham Radio, BUT, running 1.5 KW should still be available in case you need it badly. Yes, I do have an amp that will run 3KW, but it hasn't been used in years except to run into a dummy load now and then. I still keep it handy, but am totally satisfied with my 6JB6A's in my Drake Twins. You wish to run QRP, fine, do it ! I did that during my CW days with a Johnson Viking Valiant, just whatever the beast would put out on its lowest power CW. It was fun !!! But to run a decent signal on SSB with 10 or 100 watts, you have to run 1/4 power to fully modulate it. There is no other way !!!

: I agree with the decision to avoid using excessive power, especially over distances like 250 miles. When comparing different power levels on a Software-Defined Radio (SDR) over DX paths in regions like Europe, Asia, or Australia, the impact becomes more pronounced due to variations in QSB and other propagation conditions. While the difference in power levels may not be as noticeable on 10m under current band conditions, it becomes more apparent on 40m or 20m over these long-distance DX paths.

Dear Friend, great video ! but I find your tests incomplete - would you do another video with more data? example: your RX station was only 250mls away on a NVIS frequency wavelength in which if your antenna radiates at a high incidence angle then either with 100 or 5 watts you would have complete signal strength saturation as I have noticed that you probably had. in order to see the actual facts of such a test - we need more data; at Transmit time what was the FoF2 and MUF value in your area from the nearest ionosonde.? what is the takeoff angle of your antenna? - is the receiving antenna within your nvis sig. saturation zone? (in this case it was). is there a more noticeable difference where skip skywave was performed with a more far away RX station where natural skip for the specified frequency is concerned? what are the differential values of the different RX stations NVIS/ Non-NVIS range in signal strength? otherwise, this was a great demonstration of perfect timing of NVIS communications where complete signal saturation within your coverage area was performed. Great vid though and yes you do not need high power at all - 73s from SV1 - land !

Great stuff Cliff. I post to my LICW WhatsApp group my daily QRP contact to spread the word a bit.

That shows QRP can work. I had an FT101E and started turning the power down and sold it and went QRP with a h/b ssb/cw 4 Watt radio. FT817ND also and on 17m and 10m recently got 1400 miles both to Bulgaria with one Watt cw 5.5.9. report and Sicily ssb 5.5. report, and Poland with ½ Watt ssb about 1,000 miles. Attic dipoles. QRP works. G4GHB.

Can you do the same with SSB?

Didn't know you had a RU-vid channel... Very cool..... N3MFL Michael

It's a little bit different with voice, on SSB. On CW of course it's capable with low power.

I absolutely understand that QRP gets far I was doing QRP 25 years ago and having a ball of a time with it The problem I have is that you have an equal amount of people if not more screaming about if you're SWR is bad and you lose 5% of your signal that you can't get anywhere there's a juxtaposition there that drives my brain mad

The physics of power levels seem really simple. Double the power is 3dB increase. There is a 6dB step between S-units on the level meter. So... 5-10W, +3dB. 10-20W, another +3dB, total 6, or 1 s-unit. Alright, 20-40W +3, and 40-80W another 3 dB. So from 5W to 80W is 12 dB, or 2 s-units. Maybe that is enough to pull a weak signal out of the noise? Our hearing is a very nonlinear system. There' are so many anecdotes about more or less power, and maybe there are perception variables involved. But the numbers seem very straightforward.

I would like to see the SSB mode tested (as opposed to CW mode) and I think that you would see a more drastic change de k8mh.

This is correct at short distances, but when the space wave comes into play and you may even have several hops, or it is a contest, then power is important because the ionosphere and the ground have a strong attenuation. Of course, you can also use QRP, but it simply works better with e.g. 100W. Especially in SSB. You stand out more, are heard better in QRM and have less frustration. That's why I only recommend QRP for amateurs who already have a lot of experience. Otherwise, there is a risk that the hobby will end sooner than it started.

Nice video for the splattering kilowatts...