#10MinuteTalk 

I apologize for the necro-posting. I've been working my way through your back catalogue. I find your podcast to me insightful and entertaining. You guys clearly know your stuff. I've been rifle shooting for a number of years and I got to long-distance shooting a few years ago when a 1,000 yard range opened nearby. I shoot about twice a week. I still consider myself a novice. However, my real expertise is not shooting. It is a Mathematics. I have a Ph.D. in Math and save been a Math professor for the last 24 years. I want to make a few comments about the difference between MOA and mRAD. I shoot using both. Your comments in mRAD and MOA were spot on. They function similarly and people should not stress about using one or the other. Nevertheless, conversions using mRAD are not that inherently complicated. Calculations using mRAD are made complicated by baggage brought by the shooter. Degrees, minutes, and seconds and Radian measure are both angular measure. However, Radians is considered to be more natural. Nobody uses degrees for advanced mathematics. There are reasons why degrees have advantages for building and navigation. But, Radian measure is objectively more useful for higher math. The chief reason for this is due to trigonometry. If an angle is very small, the sine and tangent of the angle are approximated closely by the Radian measure of the angle. In theory, one only needs to divide the desired linear adjustment by the range to the target to get the desired angular adjustment. For example, 100 meters is 10000 cm. So 1 cm at 100 m is 0.1 mRAD, usually 1 click. Suppose you are shooting at a target that is 375 meters away and your impacts are half a meter low. You want to adjust your aim 50 cm. Round 375 to 400 and use the 4. Divide 50 by 4 and get 12.5. Adjust 13 clicks. This actually works out to just shy of 50 cm, but the scope can not get any closer using 0.1 mRAD clicks. What makes things so complicated? 1 Imperial Units - Using radian measure involves converting inches to yards on the fly. This involves multiplying of dividing by 36. This is a mess. 2 Thinking in MOA - Shooters brought up using MOA adjustments tend to think in MOA. The 1 inch = 1 MOA approximation is never more than 5% off. Shooters will approximate the angle in MOA and convert it to mRAD. This is a horrible idea because 1 MOA is 1/60 th degree and 180 degrees in 3.1415926.. Radians. The conversion is a mess. Using an mRAD scope while thinking in MOA is a bad plan. A good rule of thumb is that 1 inch at 278 yards is 0.1 mRAD. But, you can see the advantage is using metric units here. In the end, shooting experience out weighs any mathematical mumbo-jumbo. Shooters should keep shooting, work on the fundamentals and use the system that works best for them. I believe that if you shoot enough using a particular platform, you don't need to think about the actual numbers. You build up an instinct for the number of clicks. Also, shooters should use the reticle for fine adjustments. I mounted a Vortex Diamondback Tactical 6-24x50 MRAD to my CZ 455 with a 30 MOA scope base. I shoot it regularity out to 300 yards. This give me a lot of practice reading the scope. I put the same model scope on my 6.5 PRC for shooting out to 1,000 yards. I rarely find myself worrying about dialing in the proper adjustments. Thanks again. I'll keep watching.

This video confused me more. I think using examples of each would have helped. For example, your shooting X yards or meters, you need to adjust Y, so you you calculate this way with MOA and that way for MRAD.

Simply put it’s metric vs imperial. MOA at 100yds = 1.04”, at 1000yds = 10.4” MRAD at 100m = 10cm, at 1000m = 1m. MOA works with fractions (usually 1/4” occasionally 1/8” per scope click) at 100yds. MRAD works in 1/10’s = 1cm at 100m per click. It’s not a 100% perfect explanation but it didn’t take 10mins and it’s usually enough to get a preference.

Thanks Jimmy…appreciate the time and effort!

I think most of the confusion happens because 5 out of 4 people suck at math. The best thing to do it go shooting with someone like kent. Make a shot. Let kent do the math. Make adjustment. Impact! Lol. I really do think the subject is over complicated. Enjoyed the video.

I really think it would help to address some of the benefits that each have over the other, but how they can coincide when necessary... for example: - MOA can easily compensate for *_known_* distance by directly correlating to drop _at_ that predefined distance - MRAD/MILs can actually approximate distance (when unknown) if you can relate the size of the object to MILs - If you approximate distance in MILs but assess your DOPE in inches, the inches (approximate MOA) can be calculated back to MILs I don't think either one will ever "win out" over the other -- they're like man-vs-woman, or nature-meets-engineering... If shooters can learn how to balance the two together they have more capability overall.

With a BDC optic, a ballistic app, and a laser range finder, the unit of measure doesn't matter. As long as everything is calibrated, you're good.

MRAD is my choice for all of my scoped rifles. But I am comfortable using MOA for mechanical sights.

If you have ever taken math beyond basic algebra you are probably familiar with these terms even though you might not realize it. These are just two different methods of dividing up sections of an arc (circle). If you’re familiar with the DEG/RAD function on your calculator, you’re already familiar with these concepts, even if applying them to sighting in your optic is new to you. There are 360 degrees in a circle...and 60 minutes per degree. There are 2(Pi) radians in a circle...and 1000 milliradians (angular mills) per radian.

Put the thing on the thing and press the thing!

When possible match your reticle to your adjustment turrets (at least with exposed/target turrets). Nothing more annoying than shooting a mil reticle and then make an adjustment using 1/4 MOA clicks after running the math.

This video made it easier for me, thx

believe it or not I have both MRAD and MOA scopes because I have friends who shoot both and on a range day i can switch up scopes or rifles and make calls for either but my preferred is MOA just because that is what i first learned on back when i was a kid in the mid to late 70s I have taught myself MRAD because as I said friends and family who are ex- military that where taught in MRAD

Modern ballistic apps are also great to count distance in imperial or metric and display solutions in MOA or MRAD or both, so you can mix and match

I've stuck with MOA. I tried MRAD and just confused myself. Everything i have is in MOA

Great info.....thank you!!

How far off is the reticle on my Viper XLR when I use the 6 or 7 MOA hold over? (At 6 or 7 hundred yards)

They both measures the same thing what does it matter if I'm dialing up 3.4 mils or 11.6 moa? Just turn the turret to the right number hold left edge of target and send it

Excellent videos. From a construction guy of 40 years..... try watching a video on carpenter measurement to engineering scale for surveying purposes..... That was a disaster for me. It's VERY hard to get used to a "new system". BUT, as a first time buyer of an AR 15 scope, I'm a bit confused. Always been more of a shotgun hunter in the midwest from pheasant to deer. Any wisdom is appreciated.

VERY helpful!

Much like imperial vs metric, I feel like you're best bet is to just use what you've always used before, but if you've never used either I'd recommend MRAD. While MRAD isn't just "metric MOA" it does use a Base 10 system (like metric), so it should, theoretically, be easier to learn (just like metric is easier to learn and understand than imperial). However, if you're already used to MOA you'll just find yourself converting MRAD to MOA in your head, so just get what you're used to.

Lol maybe I should’ve gone mrad since I was an artillery gunner

I’ve found a deal on a viper pst 2 in mrad, but I don’t know squat about mrad. Is it just as simple to dial in adjustments as moa optics? Will save me 70 dollars.

I use both.. I understand them both. Neither is better than the other .

I use moa and always will because I know it and I don’t comp shoot so when I am long range I can take my time.

Really it comes down to whether you think more in/ measure with feet, inches, and yards (MOA) or centimeters and meters (MRAD). If you are more accurate or better at guessing range, distance, height, etc. in one form that's the one you should use. If you are shooting and say the target is 500 yards out and hit 6 inches low use MOA. If you say it's 450 meters away and hit 15cm low use MRAD. The reason the military and police use MRAD isn't because it's better, (actually MOA adjustments are more accurate) but for cross communication reasons in-between agencies. That way if the FBI, LA SWAT, secret service are helping protect someone and working with a German, French, English, Spanish, etc. Security force they aren't speaking in different terms and measurements in a crisis. Same with a scenario where navy seals or marine snipers might be working with an SAS team or something like that.

First Focal Plane scope makes this even simpler. Maybe this was said already.

hey guys! is the strike eagle capable of handling the abuse from 6.5 creedmore? ive been told its rated for 556 only

THANKS FOR THIS DISCUSSION, (...BUT, YOU NEED TO SHOW SOME DRAWINGS/PHOTOS/CHARTS.... )

I always like to start with a compliment and I will. Most of your videos are really informative. That said this one was not in fact it would confuse a new shooter. I am a Metrologist ( I teach measuring). The first thing I would explained to a new shooter is that any rifle has a signature. Assuming everything is bedded all torque settings are correct and we are at 68 degrees, the rifle will shoot based on the aforementioned and never change! The purpose of the optic is to overlay a crosshairs or red dot at that location at whatever yardage you prefer normally specified by the ammunition manufacturer based on twist, and barrel length. Once a new shooter understands that the centerline of the chambering is as close to the centerline of the barrel we have a really good starting point. With so many variables such as heating of the barrel and wind as well as BC that rifles signature will not change unless you change one of the aforementioned variables. With MOA the calculations differ from the metric methodology. Shoe a example of say a 204 Ruger zero at 200 yards. Then explain both systems and let the shooter see what he/ she feels more comfortable with. You can also give an example of a cold bore shot, the rifle being held firmly as you adjust your elevation and windage to the center of the hole created by the signature shot. This is of course the two shot sight in. I prefer MOA because I hunt and seldom shoot over 400 yards. I offer up my commentary very respectfully for a new shooter will make many costly mistakes unless a forums like yours educate them starting from the basics.

Since I think in inches, but am looking at an MRAD scope. If 1 moa aT 200 yds is 2” what is the MRAD at 200 yrds

Knowing dope in inches for a given rifle is just easier for me to picture in my head for shots without adjusting a turret. To be fair I have measured things in inches my entire life building things ect so it just makes more sense to use the same measuring system for shooting as an American. If I know my drop is 6" at a given range holding over 6" from my intended point of impact seems intuitive for taking good shots when there may be no time to dial a turret. I have never used MRAD but as far as I understand it is far less granular than moa since 1 moa is roughly 1" per 100 where mrad is like 6" or something. As well most people know the possible group they can shoot with a given rifle in MOA (this is a sub moa or 2 moa rifle ect) but I have never heard anyone describe a rifle as a 1 or 2 MRAD gun. So why would you want to have to do a math conversion between the 2 in your head to try and figure out if you can consistently hit the size of the target zone at a given range. For example if I know my rifle with a given load can shoot .5 moa at 100m and I want to hit a 6" target at 500m then I know my group should be roughly 2.5" at that range and if I miss it is my fault. If I wanted to hit the same 6" target with a gun that is 2 moa at 500m my group would be roughly 10" and 40% of the time a perfect shot will miss due to the inherent characteristics of that rifle and it will not work at that range for that size target. That 2 moa rifle may be terrible for shots on deer past 300m where the group would get larger than 6" on a perfect shot, but is far accurate enough to down a moose at 500 with a nice broadside shot and a 10" group. I would have to do a whole lot of mental math or learn a entirely new way of picturing size to come to the same conclusion in MRAD and it seems like a case of over complicating my life for no real upside other than using the new hotness.

I'm American and the reason there is a system other than imperial is because metric is base 10 making it a much better system. I use metric for woodworking, screw 1/16th and conversions.

For the love of me, I struggle with the MRAD / MILS concept. I use metric measurements at work, but ask me my weight and height and I'll tell you in Ft -ins & Lbs (or Stone & pounds in the UK) and our road speeds are still in MPH. We buy 'pints of beer, Pounds of potatoes for instance, but our gasoline comes in Litres........... I was young when we in the UK switched from Imperial measurements to Metric, so I can use both well. You have to have a 'split personality' to live here. (But I still don't get MILS!)

I only use FFP MRAD.

Great job Jimmy! Some comments: MAKE sure the optic you buy has the reticle (MOA or MRAD) that is the same as on the turrets! I know of a couple of very popular optic manufacturers that confuse the buying public. It’s like having an American car that the fuel gauge is in liters and the speedo in mph. Yikes! Think about this: the tick marks on a reticle is nothing more than a common RULER. Open your old desk drawer, pull our your decades old wooden 12” ruler from grammar school, and apply those graduations to the marks within your MOA reticle. Or … if your so inclined … get a metric ruler and the same system applies to your MRAD reticle - this time in a measurement based on the metric system.

I prefer MRAD. There's really not much difference. Just what I like I guess.

So mil is better for long range, because it's easier to adjust your optic. Moa is better, because the adjustments are more fine.. mil requires less turret changes, but moa better.. did I di that right?

When you get into 1/8 moa adjustments though... Mrad is really only a better method of communication between spotter and shooter and even that is splitting hairs. Anyone can use either but if you're used to moa or can get used to it, it is the more finely adjustable measurement and as such easier to use for extreme ranges when you need to flick a gnat off a flys ass.

I normally like your 10 minute talks but I'm afraid you missed the target (pun intended) on this one. What you are talking about only addresses how to change your point of aim for a second shot which which puts you behind the curve for most shooting situations beyond simply hitting a paper target off the clock. Not so much for a hog at distance. See Ryan Cleckner's NSSF series for a better explanation.

First time scope user trying to decide on MOA v MRAD. I thought I wanted MOA… now I’m back to square one, and don’t know sh*t…….

Its beyond me how America use inches yet the military uses mrad and all i want here in the UK is SFP and MOA and its getting harder to get a decent scope like this, the market has been pushing MRAD and FFP and most dont really need this

1/4 MOA = .0042 degrees VS .1 MRAD = .0057 degrees

MOA is finer and easier to understand just go with that

I live in 'Merica. The targets at the range are in inches. I think in MOA. MRAD is also good. I just don't have a problem with math. Known size of target X 95.5 and divide that by the number of MOA in the reticle. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy. Also, notice that Jimmy, by himself, keeps the 10 minute talk pretty close to 10 minutes. Just saying.

What I find frustrating is that we see accuracy being rated using MOA (e.g. sub MOA rifle), scope bases are in MOA (e.g. 0 or 20 MOA), ring heights are typically in inches. Why not keep it simple and use MOA for scope measurements too (e.g. 1/4 MOA per clicks) rather than odd number in mils. Not sure why military use mils over moa. I wonder if NATO has something to do with it...

Moa is angular. 1/60 of 1/360th of a circle.

eBay has Mia and mead scope rulers now

For all but the snipers among us, multiply MOA by 3.4 to get MRAD.

Typically MOA

many video showing bullet drop with moa &correction but mrad all i see is people showing how to figure out distance from target size never go into bullet drop & mill corection

Nice basic explanation .

Short answer is just go MOA.

Im waiting for the day the US is going metric.

You are absolutely right...details, details, details...so confusing.

MOA all day

Circles (globe) are measured in radians. Radians are a superior system.

HAH?

I find it odd how much talk there is about mrad vs MOA...especially when people talk pros and cons...they are just two different measures of angle, and conversion is that 1 mrad = 3.4 MOA....or 0.34 MOA is exactly 0.1 mrad...its just like debating the pros and cons of measuring in feet or yards nothing magic here

Why does the world have 2 units of measure? Well the world has one, the US has a second.

I can explain the MOA vs MRAD in one word: Americans......

I humbly offer this...to make it even more simpler ... MOA is Imperial: Measured in inch/foot/yard. MRAD is metric: milimeter, centimeter, meter. Simple. Have a nice day. Which to buy... THATs personal preference. How does one like to measure things, then maybe stick to something one is comforatable with... Cheers. "Eucher" :-)) you must live near near Ontario. Take Care

So if most hunters are using moa. Why do you guys offer your razor lht 50mil objective in mils and not moa if that was what the scope designed for? Hunters! I dont get why that was done and frankly vortex just lost my $1,000 for this foolishness... I literally watched this video only because that scope is only offered in mils with the 50mil objective.... so frustrating. So many times has vortex messed up a genius scope with silly bs. Another example is the hs-lr 6-24. Why would you offer it in only ffp? I ended up getting the 4-16 just for the sfp but even then I found out its 1/2 moa adjustments rather than 1/4..... it's like the idea starts as a million dollar idea but somewhere in the process you got tooo drunk or high and mess it all up every time....

You compared 22-250 to white claw with your helicopter headset. you can't be trusted.

I knew this was going to be bad. You can’t do MRAD MOA in 10 minutes.

Mouthful of crap still never got to the point

MRAD 100%. Simpler, with more straightforward math. And as a Chemistry major, metric system is always superior to imperial.

If you think in Inches/Yards use MOA, If you think in cm/metres them MRAD

Sorry, but you're wrong, wrong, wrong. Moa scopes have always been more popular in the US because most Americans are just too damn lazy to think it all through, and so they fall back on the old trusty American rule of thumb about inches at 100 yds, despite it being wrong by 5%, which can be significant. How many people I've heard on these forums saying they'll stick with what they know, or with moa because it's more "American". So it is: both lazy and wrong.