I think Ryan isn't helping the .444 renaissance because he raves so much about the 45-70! If Ryan said the .444 was his favorite cartridge, he might be able to single-handedly bring it back. Agreed with Mark's points on why he'd get a 45-70, though. If Henry made a .444 in their X model, I'd consider getting one.
the reason the .44 Mag is .429 cal is that it was developed by lengthening the .44 Special, itself a lengthened .44 Russian, which is a .44 S&W American re-worked to use an internally seated bullet. same story as the .38 Special and .357 Mag
Yeah, if they had followed naming precedent of the .38/.357 we would have had the .44 Special followed by the .429 Magnum, but .44 Magnum supposedly sounded cooler, I guess.
You guys aren’t old enough to remember the hype when the 444 came out. I am. As a teenager in the mid 1960’s I hung on every word as the gun rag writers cowtowed to Remington and Marlin. Then there was the other response when the 240 grain JHP pistol bullet started blowing up when it hit anything relatively heavy or solid. It was a few years before the heavier constructed 265 grain rifle bullet came out but the damage had already been done. I have both 444 and 45-70 rifles and like them both. The original rifles had 24 inch barrels so most of the velocity claims you see are based on a 24 inch test barrel . My 444 is a 1992 444SS with the 22” Microgroove barrel. I’ve never tried lead bullets in it but it handles any jacketed bullet just fine. Marlin did bring out a 22” 4 groove Ballard rifled version in 1999. The problem with the 444 is that there is no nostalgia factor attached to it like the 45-70 and there are no really hot hand loads like there are for it like there are for 45-70 in the Ruger Number One or my Siamese Mauser which will push a 400 grain jacketed bullet to over 2000 fps. On the bright side the Hornady LeverEvolution loading with the 265 grain FTX bullet has made the 444 a legitimate 200 yard plus cartridge. Maybe 250 with a scope. Of course the LeverEvolution loadings have improved the 30-30, 35 Remington and 45-70 in the same way. Happy hunting boys and girls,😊
There are some pretty smoking loads out there for the 444 Marlin. Buffalo Bore puts out a 335gr hardcast doing 2,100fps. Hornady Superformance has a 265gr load doing 2,400fps. Any handloader with the right powders on hand can duplicate those loads.
@@smartacus88 I have the LeverEvolution loads for 444. I’ve never been able to find any of the find any of the flat nosed SuperFormance loads. Didn’t know Buffalo Bore loaded any 444. Haven’t seen any published really hot loads for 444 but haven’t looked that close.
The 444 really comes into its own with handloading. For me, there are 3 primary loads: a 240gr 44 Mag bullet at 1800 fps for deer-size game; the 280gr Swift A-Frame at 2200 fps for hunting most bigger things like Elk; and a 285gr Lyman 429640 (solid nose) cast from linotype at 2200 fps for woods walking in Brown Bear and Moose territory.
Mark, your positive and upbeat demeanor, always makes for enjoyable viewing. I once said you were the Joe Rogan of hunting & shooting podcasts; I apologize for that comment, you are much better than Joe Rogen! Ryan, Jim and you make a great team.
I live in Yukon Canada. I have taken lots of game with my 45-70 rifles, all with stout hand loads. I also have a Harrington and Richardson in 444 marlin. I shoot a 265gr flat point hornady bullet at 2350fps averaging just over an inch in accuracy. I am looking forward to trying the 444 on game one of these days. I just hope with the lighter bullet it will work as well as the 45-70s have with the heavier bullets.
I have a 444 Marlin and shoot 53 grains of VihtaVouri N120 with a 200 grain Shock Hammer solid copper bullet at 2800 FPS and drop Big whitails. Love it.
I bought my .444 Marlin back in '97 , every deer I've taken with that 265 gr bullet has been spun around and flipped over in midair like it was hit by a truck . Conversely the deer I've taken with my 1895 Marlin has dropped just not so spectacularly. In my experience the 444 is a better round unless you go with the Buffalo bore heavy loads in 45-70 and then you're going to have much heavier recoil. And by the way the 150 year anniversary Marlin 1895 is a gorgeous firearm and I wish I could have gotten one.
Once I loaded the 265gr Hornady Flat Point for my Marlin 336, there was no need for any other bullet to hunt with. I load it to 2200fps. The bullet expands nicely and just doesn't stop.
Cant get better than 330 gr gas checked hardcast ht. Getting over 2500 fps from a 26" bbl thompson encore with under an inch groups at 100 yds, all day.
Love the .444!!!! Been hoping for this video for a while!!! Just got one of marlins new run 444 LA a few years back. It is great to hand load for and I find bullets very interchangeable with 44 mag. Everything from 200 gr to 300 gr. Factory, lead hard cast, or home swaged!!!!
I went the .30-30 route because of recoil of the .444 and .45-70. Plus at the time in summer 2017, it was easier to get a hold of a brand new 336 in .30-30 than getting a .444.
I have the CVA Scout in 45-70 and just purchased the .444 CVA Scout. The ballistics using Hornady Leverevolution shows the .444 being the clear winner. I cant wait to actually get them both out side by side and do some comparisons.
About 1969 a kid on my school bus told me I was confused; and that the round was a .44 magnum and not a .444 Marlin. The following day he actually admitted that he didn’t know everything when I brought in my gun periodical with an article on the .444. Recently I could have gotten a good deal on a nice .450 Marlin Ruger No. 1. I passed because no one had ammunition in stores or online. Looks like I’ll be trying a new Henry in .45-70 because ammo is available. Heck, it’s so popular folks give me their .45-70 brass. Oh yes; I still haven’t seen a video on the .358 Winchester. It has way better sectional density than these fat lever rounds. Why no love from you guys for my .358 Winchester cartridge?
One lesson to extrapolate from the 444 Marlin is that putting the wrong bullet into a cartridge will harm the cartridge's adoption and success. They originally stuffed 44 Magnum bullets into the cartridge, but those bullets weren't made for that terminal velocity, and would sometimes break upon impact, thus hurting overall efficacy. On the other side of that, Hornady was selling "Hornady Black" 300 BLK ammunition by stuffing 208-grain 308-bullets into the 300 BLK case. The bullets remained subsonic, but even with those little red ballistic tips, the bullet still behaved like a FMJ, and absolutely would not expand at those subsonic velocities. For shooting paper, or soda-cans, it didn't matter. But I did some animal control with them and found them to be horrendous. 100% serious, subsonic 9mm outperformed that, because the 147-gran hollow-points would absolutely deform and expand upon impact. It _STILL_ leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and frankly, from Hornady, I expected better. Now I am aware that better performance from subsonic 300 BLK can be had right now with much more expensive bullets that can be reasonably expected to peel and deform upon subsonic impact... .and that's great. I should be more open-minded and try again, but I won't. So I didn't mean to turn this into a bitch-fest, but it's just interesting how critical it is to have the correct bullet-construction for the cartridge -- it really is a make-or-break point for that cartridge's success. One other example: if you're going to hunt deer with a 243, make sure you're using _AT LEAST_ 80-grain. The reason why isn't just for purposes of muzzle-power, but because the bullet-construction at 80-grains and up is intended for deer, whereas the manufacturer _ASSUMES_ that if you're using lighter than 80-grain, that you're _NOT_ hunting deer, and the bullets tend to be not bonded, and much more frangible. This is a broad rule, so there are probably exceptions.
When Marlin marketed the rifle and caliber in the 60s and 70s, they pushed it as a deer-class cartridge. They made points that in states with heavy hunting pressure, the 444 with the 240gr 44 Magnum bullet would expand quickly, transfer energy, and drop the deer DRT. This opposed to shooting your deer with a higher-velocity, lower caliber, it running off, and then you hear shots a quarter mile away, and as you track your blood trail, you find another hunter gutting your kill with his bullet hole in the deer too… They compared it to the express cartridges of the early 20th Century. Problem is, people also hunted Elk, Moose, and Brown Bear, and yeah, that 240gr pistol bullet sucked - under penetrated and over-expanded.
Although I have several 45/70s might go towards gun is a 444 marlin. Why? Because I don’t like to follow the herd. As per my favorite quote, “I’ll flush my toilet to the tune of a different plunger.”
I own a 444 Marling Leaver Gun. It will push a 240 near 2,500 FPS. It is much flatter shooting and extends your range. Great cartridge. Swift also mbm as makes an A-Frame bullet to reload. Remington also make ammo for the 444 in a 240 flat point.
HAVE a 444 got a 1200 lb moose with it with a 265 grain honaday flat nose coming out 2400 fps no problem with the moose . the 444 also shoots flatter than the 45 70 better at longer range
IMO, it's the best straight wall deer cartridge on the market for states and zones where straight wall cartridges are required. Especially the Leverevolution ammo. Accurate, manageable recoil, retained energy, terminal performance, flattest farthest shooting of the straight wall options, etc.
Compare 444 marlin and 400 legend. I’m in a free state, I don’t have to do anything in specific except my state does not allow calibers under .230. 444 vs 400 legend sounds like a good video. So far a couple guys have used 10mm projectiles and made their own hand loaded 400 legend. Like the 44 mag XL vs 10mm XL
The 400 legend uses a shorter (1.65") case and is designed to fit in an AR15, so it has a 2.26" OAL, just like the 35 Legend (and 223). There are several places where the max case length of a straight-wall cartridge is 1.8", which is why the 35 and 400 Legends and 360 Buckhammer were created. The 360 Buckhammer is rimmed and for leverguns instead of AR15's.
Oh I wish Michigan would open their eyes, we have case length restrictions and that 444 doesn't fit the narrative. I have to truck it farther north into the rifle zone when I use my Marlin.
Can we get a 10 min talk on the leverevolution powder/loadings/concept? I think a lot of people would benefit from the knowledge about the FTX bullet design, why it's necessary for tubular magazines, the slow burn rate of the powder and how it allows for increases in velo without increasing pressures to sharp? Maybe even go over some bolt gun cartridges that benefit from the powder outside of the lever gun setting!
The FTX bullet's benefits are really cartridge specific. For example the 357 Mag, 44 Mag, and 45 Colt designated bullets have horrible BC's worse than just using an XTP even in the same weight range. Those same bullets above also suffer from being longer and taking up more case capacity leading to reduced velocity, it's a lose/lose. On the other hand the 30-30 and 35 Remington get FTX bullets that are leagues above the other suitable offerings. The LeverEvolution powder is only used in a couple of the cartridges like 30-30, 35 Remington. It's too slow for the likes of 45-70 and 444 Marlin.
I always found the 444 marlin fascinating, I shot a TC Encore 15" pistol in 444 a few times, a few was enough lol, most recoil I've ever experienced in a handgun, its not too bad in rifles but I never actually owned one. As someone else already said, there's never been enough rifles chambered for the 444.
Ryan doesn’t tiptoe out onto thin ice… he jumps on it! Marlins have always been better than Winchesters? 🤯 I have more than one Marlin. They are fine rifles. But I just got a Winchester 1892 Deluxe Trapper Takedown chambered in 45 Colt. 16” barrel. It may be the most fun to shoot of anything I own 😎
30 years ago I took my first deer with a marlin 444. I was ten years old and I remember it being a factory 2nd rifle bc it had a slight bulge at the end of the muzzle. Dad sold it when parents got divorced and I’ve been watching gunbroker for years hoping it shows up.
FWIW, the current SAAMI spec for the 444 Marlin is a .4305" (-.003") bullet, slightly smaller than the .44 Mag's .4320" (-.003") bullet, although there is some overlap. The "-.003" is the bullet tolerance, ie .4305 to .4275" for the 444 Marlin.
Both the 308 and 338 Marlins are very good cartridges that just didn't catch on. They were designed by Hornady with their "match-style" chamber (tight freebore). They both have chamber pressures lower than most new cartridges (47,.500 and 46,000 psi, respectively) and in order to work in Marlin's leverguns.
My friend just got one of those scout c v a's, In a 444 marlin. Put a really nice Optic on it. And we're gonna shoot it thursday morning. Thanks for the wonderful podcast. By the way I am a 45/70 man. But this cartridge should be very interesting, And of course we're going to handload it to get the most out of it. Report back to you later commander.😅😊
I use the 444 Marlin cases and neck them down to .375 to form my 375 JDJ cases for my Encore pistol . The375 JDJ is a great cartridge. Should do a pod cast on the J D Jones cartridges that he designed!
I do 6.5 x 257 Robert’s AI and 309 JDJ and even a rimmed 243 Win all from 444 Marlin in my Encores! First two biggest change is only the 6.5 and 30 cal bullet vs your 375! Cool stuff
444 is cool in that if you buy factory it will be top end 45-70 powerful. With 45-70 you could buy some black powder stuff. With this it will always be a high stepping load. For any cartridge other than 5.56 and 9mm hand loading is an easy business case
There was a .40 cal option back in the day, called the .40-65. Basically a full-taper .45-70 necked to .406 caliber. Today the newest and closest thing to that would be the .400 Legend, but it's not a rimmed cartridge. Or a 10mm magnum, but again, not rimmed. For whatever reason it seems the .40 caliber rifle cartridge hasn't been a popular option even since the late 1800's as compared to other stuff. As a lower recoil alternative to .45-70, going back to .444 is a good option. The next step would be the .38-55 or .375 Win. (.377 or .375 caliber).
Can you do a lead balloon episode on the 224 Valkyrie. It looked like it had a lot of potential when it came out but I've seen recently that a lot of manufacturers have stopped chambering for it, but if you want a super flat .22 in a standard AR it seems like the ticket
We actually use some here in France and they are the more commonly lever actions used for hunting. Especially driven hunts… I have one myself and i shot a running boar at 150m in january….had to shoot somerhing like 5meters in front of him to get it 😂 I love my 444
Love my 444 Marlin, as a handloader I think it's more versatile than the 45-70. Own 9 Marlins (No 45-70s), 1 Henry (I think Henry is missing a big opportunity not offering a 444 rifle) and no Suck-chesters. Now that Ruger has resurrected Marlin, I only hope that a 444 will be built. Maybe an SBL style with 16" or 18" barrel.
I’m with you, waiting for ruger to put one out there. I own 4 of them . 2 H&R ,1 cv scout,and 1 10 inch barreled BFR 5 shot 444 cal. My only repeater it’s and hand full. I reload my rounds 180 grain to 300 grains
I love the 444 Marlin but I like levers anyhow, have a bunch of them from 357 to 454, the 444 Marlin and a BLR 30/06. I also have 2 450 Bushmasters, an AR and a Ruger American. Those 2 smoke those lever guns except the BLR but when you load the Ruger American (bolt gun) to 45 Raptor ballistics that's another story. The 444 is a freezer filler if you want a lever then the Marlin 1895 is the ticket, mine is great and on par with my 20" Rossi in 454 Casull (and my 450 Bushmasters. You can't really tell the difference in the cartridges but IMHO the Marlin is just a higher quality rifle and makes mounting an optic a breeze. The 454 is nice because I have a Ruger SRH in the same caliber and with the 20" barrel on the Rossi I load a 225gr Hornady FTX to 2200, formidable. Personally I wouldn't look twice at a 45/70, even with the newer loadings those other big bores are just faster, flatter shooting and hit harder in those bullet weights up to 300gr. Where the 45/70 shines is when you want a heavy bullet, with the case capacity you can shoot 500 gr bullets and up, can't do that with the others but I'm only popping whitetails not buffalo.
CVA is odd in that it makes a 444 Marlin Scout, but not a 450 Marlin. Why not make both? It would be nice to see new Marlin (Ruger) chamber this in their new 1895 though.
@@danielcurtis1434 sure 500-600 grain at 1050 ft/s is more energy at the muzzle. But there your are looking at non expanding hard casts with a BC like a barn door and a bullet trajectory like a medieval cannon. With the Sub-X you have a projectile that expands to about .70 cal in the target and carries similar energy at 75-100 yards.
@@nikos6220 within 200 yards a spitzer bullet isn’t much advantage. Especially when your limited to subsonic velocities. They have 475-600 grain spitzers that expand although at .458” I don’t see how that’s absolutely critical? In any case the terminal effect and penetration is way way better.
@@danielcurtis1434 you were right re the energy. I overestimated the benefit of the BC as we are fixed at 1050. there are Spitzers in .458 but those are for the 458 SOCOM. Not compatible with a Lever Action tube. I think there is a 500 grain Maker copper expander for the SOCOM. That would be a sweet subsonic. But I am not aware of any softpoints for 45-70 that are made for subsonic expansion. On pure energy, the heavy pills will be ahead quite a bit at 100 and still slightly ahead at 200 yards, about 80-100 ft-lb. I personally would rather like to have a .70 wound channel than a .458. Especially at those low speeds.
@@nikos6220 well to be fair the whole tube magazine with spitzer bullet issue is really questionable. I’ve never seen a test that shows that a tube magazine loaded with pointed bullets would cause sympathetic detonation. I’ve seen test with 10 times the force of any recoil in a gun and nothing happened. They eventually hit it with something remotely and set it off. And yes every round in the magazine detonated. One option is have one in the chamber and the rest with your 410 grain? Also you could have one round in the magazine and the in the chamber? I wouldn’t want to worry about my gun detonating. However I’ve seen videos claiming that this can actually happen with flat nose (with very old primers). I think the rumor comes from turn of the century primers. Primers we’re different back then. They had thinner weaker copper/brass. More importantly they had way sensitive primers (also corrosive from Murcury fulminate). So I really want professional to test this properly? I think they could make a safe tube magazine option with traditional bullets? Maybe thicken the primers brass a bit? Maybe you find a way to lessen sensitivity? I don’t know?? I just look at the 1,300 foot pounds (more than 5.56 at 3,000 FPS) from the 600 grain and it just looks way better “on paper”. It’s probably not logical? In any case sounds like you got a sweet subsonic setup and I’m jealous!!! Thanks for entertaining my brain/compulsion!!! take care -Daniel
Another epic cartridge talk folks! Thinking purely from a marketing point of view 45-70 Government just sounds way cooler than 444 Marlin. Superficial but this type of thing counts way more than people give it credit for. Just recently bought a Ruger Marlin 1895 SBL in 45-70 here in the UK. Love it! 👊🏻🦌
Excellent video once again on a cartridge profile. I didnt realize the velocity was so high for this one! 265 grs at 2300 fps would make quite the Deer, Hog and Black Bear gun out of a Lever Action or Single Shot Break Action in a pretty handy package for a woods gun.
I love my 444 but I hate shooting the 265 gr Hornady loads as the recoil is terrible in my opinion. I shoot 240 gr xtp’s at 2300 fps and they are very easy shooting in my experience and would easily take the game you’ve mentioned without beating up the shooter. In my opinion the 265 is overkill for most game but if I was in grizzly country I’d definitely be using it.
Caliber diversity is always nice, but in my opinion, the .45-70 will do anything the .444 does, except perhaps take slightly lighter bullets for a slight increase in velocity. Then again, the .45-70 has some light lead-free options as well, so... not much a difference really. Very similar calibers overall.
I had 2 444 marlins in both barrel lenghts.loved them but unless I worked the lever hard the shell would jam , it would put 2 scratches on the brass.i never knew why.
Talking velocities! I got rid of my 460 s&w Contender carbine! Because the velocities coming out of an 18 inch barrel was insane! We're talking 308-30-06 velocities!
Thinking same thing happened with 357max. I remember 444 being touted basically as a 44 max and pistol bullets failing in it. I am not sure with the 444 reloading community but know it put the 357 into the grave, you know they loaded the shite out of it and resulting failures though the 444 never was a production revolver cartridge.
I love my 444 marlin. Bought it in 2006, and had more options on ammo here in Canada. Federal made a 270 grain (i think) flat nose round. Knowing that the only available ammo now is the Hornady FTX which is what I use, I will go get the rest at the local shop.... Which is 2 boxes. Reloading is key now.
Oddly enough, I have no problem finding .444 ammo here in Canada. I've heard of it being hard to find in the US, you would think the opposite would be the case
6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum. Not so much a lead ballon but maybe more like a hypersonic ballistic missile. The flattest shooting cartridge available in a small arm at a severe cost of barrel life and throat erosion
Would be interested on hearing your thoughts and beliefs/ balistic information on rounds such as, 264 Win mag vs 7mm Rem, 300Wby vs 300Win, 30/06 vs 7mm Rem and others. Thanks guys love the show.
Can you please do the long forgotten 307 Winchester? I want to hear Ryan talk about how fast that calibre came into the world and faded away! Thanks guys love the content!
I bought several boxes of federals new bonded 444 marlin cartridges, will outlast me for sure. 444 does almost everything better than the 30-30, and my winchester 94 comes in at about 6.5 pounds fully loaded can't beat that for a deer rifle
Also take note how accurate the 444 Marlins have been, especially for a lever action. Think how accurate it would be in single shot high walls and rolling blocks.
It is still a good "sweet spot" 7mm cartridge, especially in a standard action which allows longer, higher BC bullets, if desired. Even better with a "match style" chamber with some tight freebore (the .284 normally has a straight-taper chamber, which tends to be more picky). There are a lot of good cartridges that just didn't catch on.
When it first was re!eased it did use the same 44 mag 240gr. S.P. Bullet only difference is they put an extra canelure on the bullet to give it more strength. Worked for deer not so much for bigger stuff.
I have a Winchester 94AE Timber Carbine in .444 Marlin. Because of the 94 Big Bore design, the 94AE can handle about 10K higher pressures than the Marlin rifles - which means with careful handloading you can push a 250 gr Keith bullet at just over 3900 fps. And this from an 18-inch ported barrel. .45-70 who?
The downfall of the .444 is bullet selection. It is arguably a better all around cartridge than the 45-70 but big heavy bullets and deep penetration are where the 45-70 shines. Also, most people hunting with a lever action are shooting at distances well within the 45-70's range. That negates the one real advantage the .444 has, velocity.
I love shooting the Hornady lever revolution for accuracy and range out to 300 yards but I absolutely hate that crap when it EXPLODES on game, on impact.... I've never ever have had to shoot a deer more than once until I tried that crap in my 444 Marlin... So I stick to the tried and damn true Remington ammo when I can find it and limit my shots to 150 and it's a bang flop program when it comes to white tail.
