#11 Paul Sutter - Rescuing Science, Restoring Trust In an Age of Doubt 

The work of rebuilding public trust in science depends on channels like yours. Thank you so much the work you do!

It took me a bit to watch this video. I saw the title and I rolled my eyes. I'm so tired of being told how I'm the problem in the growing distrust in science. I'm a Christian and a Conservative and a Homeschooler and I love science. The distrust I have isn't in the method or the study, it's in the people and the institutions. I'm a huge fan of Cool Worlds, so I took a leap of faith and watched the video and was so pleasantly surprised. This is an extremely important discussion and one that must continue. In truth, this conversation needs to happen out of the academic bubble. The end of the video was a bit rough to watch because it felt like it was revealing both men's true feelings about conservatives and Trump voters. I've found most of us love America and the accomplishments it has made, which include the great technological marvels that have come from dedication to science. What we cannot abide is the contempt for us. There are plenty of reasons to have skepticism in scientists and institutions. Here are a couple you didn't discuss: the brute force silencing of contrary arguments during the pandemic, the people losing their jobs because they didn't fall in line, and the despotic control that many officials wielded in the name of "The Science." I cannot tell you how much I've appreciated Cool Worlds so far and Professor Kipping in particular. I urge you soften your feelings toward conservatives and Trump voters, and just try to talk. Conduct an experiment. I think you will be surprised. Thank you so much for all you both have done and thank you for this absolutely excellent interview.

This is such a painful and important topic for me. I am a retired chemical engineer with two scientist daughters, one of which does environmental research and for me, my issues with science today can be directly traced to the climate debate and reinforced by the pandemic. Both became highly politicized where scientists who had research which questioned the "official" view had a difficult time getting it published and, in a number of cases, became the target of terrible smear campaigns. I can find scientists online showing convincing data for both sides of the climate debate, so how is someone supposed to know which to believe? As an engineer, the data is important in order to be able to design solutions. Inaccurate or misleading data equals bad design decisions and bad policy decisions by the politicians. Sigh. I am a great fan of both of you. Please keep up your great work.

I'm a bit biased ;) but this was for sure a great episode. David, I always enjoy your work. I so appreciate your clarity, wisdom and warmth.

Long been a fan of Dr. Sutter. Thank you for a great interview!

David I just want to thank you again for bringing science to us in a very understandable way. A safe place for a common person to understand science and to not jump to conclusions when they see things in Media. Please keep bringing us this content I don't know if you really understand how many lives you're actually touching. You're awesome

The easiest place to find Paul's book may be Amazon, but the *best* place is your local independent bookseller!

Thank you Dr. Sutter. I actually fell IN LOVE with science during the pandemic and became one of your Space Cadets! And thanks to Dr. Kipping

Hit the like button before I watched it just because of Paul sutter !

Hello there Professor David Kipping. Big fan of your cool worlds channel for years and my second favorite astrophysics channel after the amazing John Michael Godier and his channel(s). Congratulations on the JWST time you finally got on your 3rd application. I know how hard you and your team has worked for that to happen. I really hope you find that first exomoon!!! I love your calm, sensible, agnostic approach to science. This 11th episode on this channel is the first i listen to and i am sorry to say i have a bone to pick with Paul Sutter but will do that in another post. Glad you pushed back a little bit on some of the nonsense he said, thou it seemed like it went over his head. Cant wait for the JWST results. Keep up the good work.

On the subject of RU-vid scientific personalities, i think it would be interesting to invite Kyle Hill on. I feel he does a good job reaching the younger group while also doing his best to staying grounded in data and history.

Yooo I just discovered your podcast that’s so cool You gotta get Lex on it 😂 Keep it up man I wish you to find that moon in late 2024 with the JWST!

Great thought provoking conversation! My trust in science honestly was not impacted negatively during and after covid. Mask/no mask/reason for lockdown - I remember knowing why exactly those recommendations were made and I found them reasonable in the highly uncertain and volatile situation (I must say I lived in Europe, not the US). The great point from the conversation is that public demands certainty and is struggling to think in probabilistic terms. Many things, like refinement of climate models or evolving picture of corona-virus are normal for scientist and me, but feel like mistakes or even malicious intent to the public. Thanks a lot for bringing those videos to us (both from the main channel and the podcast). It is a great pleasure to learn. By the way, I discovered you, David, on Lex Friedmann podcast, and since watched all videos from the past 3 years. Great stuff! I recommend them to my friends! You asked at the start of the video about our thoughts and suggestions about how to combat decay in trust in science. It is hard to add more value to the discussion after such a comprehensive overview of options given by Paul. First thing that came to my mind though was to have all scientists to include a section in their papers that is addressed to a common reader, which explains in simple words what the finding is and why it is important/interesting. A trick that scientists can use is to ask an LLM to "explain to five year old" or a similar prompt, and refine the output. This pop-science section could (should) be posted then on their social media and on RU-vid. It is of course what you already do. I LOVED your video with compressed 10 years of research of how to discover (and prove existence of) exomoons. On the topic of "AI taking over our jobs" it is reasonable to believe that science is most protected as it is the hardest one. I can imagine the world where most humans do science and advancing the knowledge. It is a good start to restore the trust and bring interest to this fulfilling profession.

There is no science institution, science isn't an authority, there are institutions that do science, institutions of science, but science is a practice, a discipline. This is one of the issues. I remember when the messaging was, "you don't need a lab coat to do science, anyone can be a science, when you do science you're a scientist." This is 180 today, with, "I am the science", and, "science denier." People are inherent scientists, we want to teach people how to be GOOD scientists. They're going to try an science anyway. Questioning science is what a good scientist does, we want to teach people how to ask the most profitable questions, and how to validly test them. The messaging on covid was worse than you're saying, people in science had the data to know they were wrong, and those scientists brave enough to speak out were censored, fired, maligned and defamed at an institutional level. Most science funding comes from government, and government funding isn't naturally meritocratic, which lends to corruption in the interests of those making the funding decisions. Much of the issues around covid were just that. People won't trust institutions of science of it stays in the hands of an increasingly authoritarian state. Half way apologies and explanations aren't going to fix anything. It's not a mistake, it's corruption.

Settling in to watch now. Before it begins in full, I'll say my first thought is the need to separate government and science. Look forward to the conversation 👍

My comment --> Every data point is an anecdote. Every anecdote is data point.

I agree with Dr Sutter that communication isn't a scientific expertise or discipline. I think the scientific community has not been rigorous about communication skills as they are with their skills for their research. You want to be good at communication you need to study the skill of communication especially in a large public venue context. The key idea I heard was that both of you perceive that science communication is seen as a negative so it is no wonder trust has declined in the public perception of science by non scientists. Communication as both these gentlemen know is the prime way we have to influence peoples perceptions and beliefs. If you cant communicate well then it it is not a surprise when you are misunderstood.

Fascinating topic and great discussion. One thing that seemed hypocritical were the comments on finding the right professional to speak on the topic, “I’m not a geologist,” comes to mind. The two of you are speaking on topics of communication, issues of public trust/perception, etc. - aren’t there policy experts, psychologists, media professionals and other non-scientists that could offer more insightful feedback on this topic? Nothing to take away from the great conversations on your podcast, simply offering a different facet to explore for this particular topic.

Plus his work on history of the universe, on RU-vid is phenomenal! His and your channel are absolutely two of my absolute favorites!

Going out side of ones wheel house is a humorous segue for doing exactly that.

Lockdowns worked here in New Zealand for over a year until the virus escaped but my point is, had the virus been more deadly lockdowns could still be a viable option. We had fairly lax security at the border quarantine facilities which I'd suggest would have been more draconian if, say Ebola was on the loose.

I am slowly getting caught up on the podcasts, so late to the game, but I think the pandemic, combined with the political climate in the USA, just brought to the forefront what was simmering for years, as was alluded to. My husband works in environmental science. I am a teacher with a graduate degree in neuroscience. We both were raised in Christian homes where science was highly distrusted-don’t study biology because you will have to learn about evolution, climate change isn’t real, etc. I even got my star map pulled off my wall because constellations are named after Greek mythological figures. By some miracle we still have our faith and our love for science. Critical thinking skills in the secular world and faith communities, especially certain factions of the modern church, need to be greatly bolstered. The scientific method teaches us to challenge our beliefs. This should be true in faith as well, whatever faith or lack thereof you have, although I can speak only for my own. I know so many Christians who are unwilling to let science challenge them. But yet, Genesis says that light was the first thing created. Isn’t that congruent with the Big Bang? There are eleven scripture references to God stretching out the heavens, and now we know for a certainty the universe is expanding. Personally, I think if the type of people being called out in this video were a little more open to having their preformed opinions and ideas challenged, we would see more trust in science. One issue I have as a teacher is when my students are obviously regurgitating opinions and ideas they have learned at home (or TikTok), but then graduate and seek no other experience but their small circle to challenge those opinions. Whether scientists, or people of faith, or just regular folk, we cannot be shy of challenging each other and finding evidence to support our ideas. But then, isn’t that what science really is? If you have read this far, thank you, and this episode deserves more views.

It was very simple. Scientists got too close and comfortable with the politicians during the pandemic. Public knows how much political money is connected with science. Once the public saw that connection’s influence in real time the damage was done

Nice, two of my favorites!

The mistrust is related to politics and science communicators lack political literacy. People are polarized by the two-party duopoly and if you're perceived as partisan in any way, you'll be reviled by entire demographics.

On the support topic, which people/ groups do you support or would like to support and what person or group really deserves to get more support? ( Not trying to kickstart some hole YT support cirkeljerk here, just curious)

In regards to the discussion around 30:50 there is a philosopher on RU-vid called Vlad Vexler who talks about algorithmic capture, where an expert will start to shift the type of videos they produce to try and get the most views, causing them to move out of their area of expertise.

Cant we obligate newspapers, websites etc that publish the scientific results for the general public to let the scientist to have a say in the final article? Like 'yea this is fair', or 'this is not at all what i was saying'.

Great discussion! I hope we can make science cool, not a tyrant.

Thanks for great talk.

Zero trust in Humanity.

Know the bias or ideology a person or group might have. Religions have infected science at times. One good thing is the bad suff will be challenged over time. Though some of it remains. Things like many worlds instead of many possible states. Or infinity when there is a cap/non infinity. That doesn't get into cherry picked statistics which you can see all over. Arxiv is full of sciences, but not all is based on reality.

Transparency and accountability. I can only dream….

Know what you don’t know! He very right - all scientist needed to do was admit they didn’t know- the faux certainty followed by being wrong was crushing to science as viewed by the public

The problem a lot of scientists have such a big ego they don't want to debate peasants that don't understand the basics of science they will just block people if they ask "dumb questions" .i am surprised with this interview i have seen similar interviews about this topic but the guy they interview just ends up saying ban them all from the internet or makes everything political but you and Paul Sutter have good arguments. i used to read books and i thought these scientists were charismatic and good people that i could respect. but with the internet you really see their character flaws nobody is perfect but it came as a surprise .now imagine if you didn't grow up with books or are a zoomer born after the rise of social media and see these scientists act so obnoxious.

NASA have done a great job in denting people's trust in science, and the absolution within the scientific/health organisations in unwilling to change their views, or practice's is not doing them any favours with public trust. But for people to dismiss science is the biggest mistake anyone can make. #LetsGoProfessorKipping ❤️🔥👊

Going to say something controversial, please don't tar and feather me, but as someone who has respect and confidence in science (and scientists) I am getting a little weary of scientists over-promoting the fact we [they] know nothing is certain. The only truism in science is "science KNOWS nothing".... Its ok we get it. Crack on! Don't preach to the converted. I think some smarter lay people are beginning to weary of this. Have some guts and stick your neck out for some convictions. Again this is coming from someone who has watched every Cool World video. Love your work ❤ 🌙

I DON"T care about the opinion of Deplorables, and people less than me. If you are not a Caltech, Stanford, Berkeley Phd with groundbreaking publicaitons you don't matter.

Sounds to me like a common theme.Is that capitalism which serves profits?Not people is an underlying issue and people's mistrust of science

In 2020 I didn’t lose faith in science, I lost faith in GOVERNMENT

40:15 "flaten the curve" was the nearly worldwide slogan.

🫀🔥🤖🔥🫀

Most people don't realize, capitalism, not technology is what is threatening our jobs. Hence, my belief in democracy in OUR economy. No, when monarchs fell, there wasn't chaos. Similarly, there won't be chaos when we, not the unelected minority capitalists are pushed aside in favor of us ALL deciding together

For me, that the public lost confidence in science during the pandemic, underscored how much the general public does not understand the rules governing science.

Swag

I am a highly educated white hispanic (from europe) male republican and I trust 100% in science, the scientific model and scientific knowledge. the issue is that academia loves to open their mouth and align themselves with more socialist ideas while living from the money that the plainsman gives them through taxes, and they appropriate of the rights language culture language moral language and virtue language and look down to the everyday worker with dead aim thinking that they don’t know how to rule themselves. they should investigate and put they investigation to the benefit of all and shut up about the rest from an institutional point of view🤷 just my two cents here

Trust in science is of course a multi-factor issue. But if I see how science got abused by politicians to hide behind during covid it is no coincidence that it caused a significant decline. That said, science has a lot to improve too, the replication crisis basically tells everybody that science can't be trusted. Science has to apply more rigor measures to ensure quality. Take the peer review process serious, recently seen several reports of articles that were published seemingly, judged by the obvious nonsense in them, without anybody even reading them. Do a serious peer review where one actually dissects the data and applies at least some basic forensic analysis. It may also be a good idea to tackle the publication bias, I mean if you only publish studies with a 'result' one can do the same experiment 10 times and noise will ensure you'll have one with a non-null result. It may also be a good idea to teach the scientific method in schools, so people understand that there are uncertainties, that there are assumption embedded in experiments and how data is processed etc.

education and showing how their conspiracies are incorrect and we should teach them how to perform better science experiments. flat earthers show tests that completely fail in science best practice.

Pertaining to valid points raised in the conversation - maybe a cosmologist should not take hard stances on sociology?

Kind of funny how one minute hes talking about being more humble, and then turns around and displays his biases and confidently states "... we _know_ now..."

Maybe if … Sorry for my working class The ufo thang wasn’t sht upon by Just a dream

Yeah ... but still, this guy kinda needs some therapy, also. There is seriously a certain level of anger and frustration with him, which is problematic. Its not emotionally balanced. Could be considered potentially toxic.

He starts from the wrong premise. Science IS NOT an institution, science is a method. Science for some has become a religion, and some have anointed themselves priests, arbitrators of the true faith. Others people see that and call bullsh!t.

It makes me sad, to be honest. We have what could be the greatest tool ever invented... the internet. The sum of human knowledge is at everyone's fingertips, we COULD have become the best educated and most knowledgeable generation ever. Anything you want to know is online somewhere. But it's a double edged sword. For every person using the internet to learn something new, 2 more are using it to spread conspiracy theories. For every science channel on RU-vid (Cool Worlds, Fermi Lab and Sabine Hosenfelder are 3 of my favorites), there are dozens more Flat Earth or other "anti science" channels.

I really didn’t like where the politics was going on this one, I have to admit. “Red team blue team” is not a topic of discussion that should be held in high regard here.. I’m from Scotland, and it always astonishes me how much the US thinks what they do doesn’t affect the rest of the world. Here in Scotland, renowned for its Universities, since before the US was even a country, are *extremely* liberal. Very left leaning, and it’s putting off young male science enthusiasts, who don’t want to be lectured about how toxic we are because we are white, or male, or not “in line” with the, quite frankly - ridiculous rhetoric that these universities teach about a lot of subjects. What I’m saying is conversions that fuel the divide between one half of the population actually has very far reaching consequences beyond just the US. My nephew wanted to study astronomy at Uni, and has ended up not going due to basically being told he wasn’t welcome, as he didn’t have blue hair and openly liked women and wanted to get married. You see where I’m going here? In the US he would have been called “conservative” .. so now he’s not going to Uni? In Scotland? Thing’s you guys say have consequences. Just a reminder.

Like your work but please don’t say “m-hmm” in the mic every phrase your guest proffers. It’s truly disturbing.