12.5" is the Bastard Sword of ARs 

Right. Caliber is all that matters. Run a .458 SOCOM and everybody will now you are not overcompensating.

Lol

Unless you use a muzzle break for a 5.56-- THEN you very well may be over compensating

Tempo, mindset and accuracy are foremost, but it does give you more reach

That’s what I’ve been told my whole life.

LOL

Yep, but equipment wear is an issue also 12.5 patrol length gives a little better gas blow back, when surpressed ...... buy once......

Dwell time on the 11.5 makes a difference over the 10.5.

@@gonzob9609 yes!! and 12.5 has almost the same balistics as 11.5. I went with that there new fanbled Roscoe 12.5 patrol length system and low and behold works as advertized!! It s worth the extra inch for the patrol system.

@@johnL-xk2js So the gas length is in between a carbine, and Mid? 11.5 is near perfect dwell time, and the Commando just looks cool! LOL

At least you won't be over here with us pistol brace peeps wondering what the AFT is going to pull out of their ass in the next week.

First person to take the ATF to court arguing that if pistol brace=SBR then SBR=common use is a winner

14.5 + pin and weld. Still a legal length but as short as possible

Anything shorter than 16" is only worthwhile if you're suppressing it.

@@jtlegionnaire6310 IMO 14.5 pinned really isn’t that much shorter than 16, and you’re giving up a little velocity and the ability to swap muzzle devices without destroying them

100 percent, my 13.7 is awsome, shoots 1 moa with 77 grain ammo, still supersonic out to 700+

Eagerly awaiting the 13.8” length. Just to keep the ATF Fudds on their toes.

13.7 doesn't exist for legal reasons. It exists because the Brits felt the 14.5 was too long for their SAS guys. They're just as wrong as the Army was and is.

Love my 13.7. I keep it slim and light up front and it handles as well as a sub machinegun

And you should be able to run a mid length gas system with an adjustable block in order to tailor recoil, reliability and obviously set it for a can

In 20 years he could play the teacher in a Ferris bueller remake

He’s basically the Paul Harrell of youtube

It's not the worst gun I've built

@@Hoplopfheil yeah that 308 PTR-ptsd

11.5 love here…… cant change my mind yet

@@Hoplopfheil if 10.3 is bad than why do the have a proven track record.

12.5 mids scare me. Wish IWI would just sell their uppers since they apparently got the ports right.

Exactly! It’s what 300BLK was made for

So why do you run a 16 5.56

@@RoninOperator Because I use a can and my general use AR with free float metal handguard, lights, lasers, switches, etc. is not conducive to being 20". If I built an SPR it would be 18-20 though. My point was that as long as is feasible is best for 5.56 since the caliber's performance increases substantially with length. With my setup the way it is, 20" is not feasible.

For sheer reliability that's the way to go, but the barrels are so heavy you end up giving back some of what you gained by shortening in the first place.

14.5 is the correct answer

I have a specwar and it's insane how smooth it is. However if you're not getting a 12.5 with a midlength gas tube then just get an 11.5. With my RC2 on it it is also amazing

@cougar0034 the heavy barrels are done on purpose to allow you to use the gun for longer periods before it gets super hot. I'm able to go through about 4 mags of my LMT suppressed before it gets too hot to hold vs my BCM which gets too hot in around 2-3 mags suppressed. It's worth it for the extra weight imo

I plan on getting a 12.5 Specwar upper. Any mods, tweaks etc you made since first shot?

My build is very close but i use a sprinco blue spring.

What gas length?! I’m building my GPR ?

I thoroughly enjoyed reading this comparison

This was a good read, have my reddit silver good sir 🤓

@@rtydht45r5 😂😂😂 thanks for the updoot kind stranger!!1!

Um, equating a rifle to a sword is stupid. Swords dont exceed 1000 fps plus unless your a supper dupper hero type or bad ass mystical warrior. That said, yes 14.5 pin and weld largely born from stupid rules, not laws. Just AFT apparently is answering to nobody but puppet master. The 5.56 is just not the best round anyway for this or really at all. Cheap ammo is main reason people keep trying weird shit on builds.

Fellow HEMA enthusiast

Personally I split the difference between an M4 and MK18, two well proven and appreciated configurations. The 12.5 also dates back to at least operation gothic serpent, it's nothing new.

I am a proud (and prolific) customer of Sprinco! Red, Blue, Orange, white, “hot white”, etc. I have them all (and lots and lots of blues). The one thing that tuning with a stiffer spring does, though, is accelerate the return of the BCG. That can be problematic in extreme cases, causing the carrier to override the magazine. It’s happened to me a couple of times… and it took me quite a while to figure out, TBH. I have Sprinco in all of my rifles (except one…for reasons), and also have the bolt reliability kits, too.

Braided super 42 buffer from geissele is the preferred solution 🗽

PS, BRAVO-ZULU

Hop is good at dropping those nuggets of random questions he knows we have, because he has them too.

Just got a 12.5 roscoe bloodline myself. Pretty excited to try it out

Getting it lined up properly helps a lot.

It's likely due to customer demand. DD did the same thing on the MK18s. They had a smaller ~.072" port original, worked fine suppressed and unsuppressed with 5.56, but then people demanded to be able to cycle their russian steal cased through their specialized weapon so DD said "fine" and opened the ports up to ~.080".

I have the exact same experience (albeit I've shot much less out of it)

The balance and feel of a 12.5 makes it my favorite to shoot out of my lineup of 10.3, 14.5 and 16. Running same upper as shaine frederick above. Smooth n soft

Have You ever use suppressor? i'm thinking about this 12,5 carbine upper.

I’m in the process of locating an M4E1 now with Aero. Having difficulty. Going to go with a 10.5 inch barely because it’s to defend my warehouse from bangers. I’m security in LA

Triarc is one of those companies where I can't trust opinions of their products because everyone seems to 'know a guy' who works there or waits over a year for stuff. Hard to tell how good their QC and CS is when regular consumers have trouble getting the product.

I was one of the lucky ones and got a 12.5 Triarc right before their reputation went to shit. Took about 3 months to get mine back in the beginning of 2020. I will say though, its a great rifle. I love shooting it and everyone else that has tried it loves it too. Soft/ very flat shooting and very well built. It's a shame they made such bad business decisions.

@@GrayM84 bad business decisions such as?

Nitriding stainless actually reduces its corrosion resistance. And hard chrome is much more resistant to hot gas erosion than nitriding.

FWIW Triarc states you can expect a 15K-20K life for all their Track 2 bbls

14.5 is the correct answer

A list for more guns could be seen as a desire to protect those that matter to you. That being the case you could never have too many as they could always be hidden in responsible areas for easy access wherever you are. If you run out of places I have several at my house you can use. 🙊

@@CP-xo6yb wat

You're the type of guy who goes to McDonald's every day and talks to the counter for 20 minutes, doesn't order anything and goes home to eat soup. Get a life

@JAK Sahn haha I have no life due to 2 yound kids but I won't do McDonald's. I have a family to take care of. When random strangers attempt to murder you it tends to change your views on what would be effective. I want to disorient and get away to the 12ga and or long rifle depending how closely they are following.

I ran this exact setup but matched with the Vltor a5 system. It was titty city! Did not like steel case, would key hole, but ran everything else butter.

An 11.5 middy? Damn, back in my day 14.5 mids were controversial

I use the same Barrel unsuppressed with an H3 and it runs outstanding.

@@ReverendMeat51 I think most of the time the things the gun guys argue about are almost totally meaningless in the real world.

@@Valorius Truth

If a couple of pounds is heavy to you, I need to wonder why a woman with atrophied muscles is spending her money of guns instead of medical treatment.

@Jesse Robinson >what is a suppressor? >what is a peq? I didn't know that you couldn't use them if your barrel was over a certain length.

An M16A1 and M4A1 are within a few ounces of each other for weight. Barrel profile matters as much (or more if we're talking bull barrels) as length for weight. Neither matters as much as how much stuff you're bolting on the gun.

@@jesserobinson838 what?

@@grben9959 this.

I heard that from Garand Thumb, which does sound practical for the roles of those shortys. What I didn't know was that you get the same velocity out of a 14.5 using a 12.5. If thats accurately true, then thats awesome.

@@sendit7922 Did you not see his graphs because they are not the same velocity nor ft. lbs. That is like saying the 10" has the same velocity as a 12" , they don't .

That’s not a bad way to go. I have a suppressed 11.5” SBR for home defense and a 16” for everything else. The 16” is a mostly-stock Geissele SD and the SBR is a Franken-Geissele that I built. To me, that duo makes the most sense for versatility and compatibility.

@@joejohnson4183 go chronograph a few. The amount of velocity loss from 14.5 to 12.5 falls in the margin of fast vs slow barrel. There is less tube so it should be slower but you can certainly have a 12.5 that is as fast as a 14.5.

I bought a 12.5 for a do all and a SF MINI 2 to pair with it. It’s about the same length as an 11.5 with a full size RC2. You just pick up a little rail space and velocity. Probably not enough to matter in most cases. Definitely looks the best on a spreadsheet though so it’s objectively right 🤣

The profile is also supposed to help with avoiding heat retention, but I'm not sure how much that matters

We have sold a ton of the 12.5 K9s

The difference in longevity of nitride vs chrome is vastly misunderstood. If you're to the point you are wearing out either barrel, the cash to replace it pales in comparison to the cash spent on ammo. So fuck it. run whatever.

@@BigTexOrdnance expected round count on each?

@@johns9888 that would be a good question for @roscomanufacturing5188

I’m trying to decide right now between 11.5 or 12.5 criterion. Have you done any chrono on it? I’ve never shot or handled a 12.5 does it feel too long for CQB work?

@@adamg574 Unfortunately, no chrono. I'd suggest checking out velocity comparisons. As for CQB? 100% fine. 10.3 is going to be better, of course, but 12.5 is more than acceptable.

@@adamg574 I have the same Criterion 12.5 and I love it to death. The length is perfect. It feels very handy and pointable. I can move through a door fine. I can still take it outside and go 300-400m easily and comfortably with it. Going off what others have said, it's only a 50fps difference from a 14.5. Is it the sAmE vEloCiTy? No (Hop is being so damn literal here). But it's so damn close that the velocity discussion becomes negligible within the neighboring barrel lengths above, and the other benefits like weight and mobility are more pronounced. Even with this not being the CORE series barrel that every shits their pants over and is always sold out, it's still balanced very well despite the govt profile. I have my lights and sights and shit out front and I like the balance still. Taking my thumb and index finger and pinching the pic rail, the balance point of the rifle is at T11. Just a few rail slots back from the rail on the upper receiver. Perfect balance on a rifle IMO. The 1-8 twist .223 wylde, means I can shoot common 55gr really well (and it actually prefers 55) or 75/77gr ammo very well and .223 or 5.56... literally anything, and every thing very well. It's the tightest grouping barrel I've personally shot. Never shot it suppressed, so I can't speak to that. You can always adjustable gas block a port size but you can't adjust dwell time. Carbine length is fine. People nit pick and bitch and worry about the weirdest shit. Nothings perfect. Just learn to live with the pluses and minuses and adjust yourself to them rather than adjusting your rifle to you to the point of wanting impossible nitpicky shit. The 12.5 is about tempered balance. It's not "general purpose" as much as it just sits right in the middle (which is Hop's main bitching point). So any critique of that will be about wanting to move to something more specific. "I want more velocity." so you move up. Or "I want shorter length" so you move down. But then when you do either of those and get more specific the next move is to complain about wanting more balance. So then you try to become more generalized. Then you try to become more specific again. Then more general. It ebbs and flows constantly. Just pick a fucking rifle length. Set it up. And knock it off with these discussions. God damn people. It's never ending.

​@@kid-hudi you have the hybrid criterion?

"Longer range threats ate engaged woth dedication guns..."... yeah, 16-20" AR/m16s. 300bo/762 better for close by

@@sterlingcampbell2116 m240s, 60mm mortars, Gustafs, M24's.....

I'm not sure that I would say that suppressors are always an ideal attachment. In asymmetrical warfare where we are the superior force against insurgents who's biggest heads up of a nearby attack is the report from our rifles, then yes they play a role. If we're the insurgents fighting against a superior enemy that can instantly advise nearby units of enemy contact by comms, then that advantage goes out the window. The main advantage they would have to offer in that scenario is the suppression of muzzle flash against an enemy using NVs, and you better hope that everyone in your unit is aware of ir discipline if they're using the same.

I thought my 16" mid length kicked too much for an ar till i built a carbine length 12.5" and that makes my 16" feel like a dream

The 20" barrel with full-length gas system is even smoother. I love shooting my A2 clone, because of that.

@@michaelblacktree i have a cousin that shoots competition and he had a 20" with a break and geissele's most expensive trigger and it was actually like a .22, felt like a damn video game

@@ethanwiley7605 I have a 20” build using a criterion core barrel and a surp arms adj gas block. Has essentially zero recoil and that’s with just a basic A2 flash hider.

An AR at this point is such an idiot proof prolific and effective general purpose rifle that I’d say everyone should have one. Don’t need a Gucci one though.

If you keep watching hop after you get your first AR, I hope you like raamen. This shit aint cheap

If you live in burgerland I highly recommend at least one AR-15. It’ll fulfill 90% of your firearm needs. A compact 9mm pistol a 12 gauge pump shotgun and a 5.56mm AR-15 is the holy trinity imho. Throw in a .22lr pistol and rifle and you essentially have everything you could ever need.

@@usnclark I have ARs. Just in freak chamberings. I am just not pragmatic enough to use standard cartridges. I am not much of a shooter, just someone that likes to fiddle with things.

@@talltale9760 Thanks, but I am just an peculiar old guy that is armed but with oddball firearms that I didn't choose very rationally. I know what the wise choices are (partly from watching guys like Hop), I just don't make them. I chose the chambering for my favorite AR because the cartridge looks like a mini version of the German 20x82. One doesn't recover from reasoning like that😏

45yds frag with fmj is definitely not relevant for people who have options.

That's adorable considering that the velocity of a 77gr TMK from a 10.3 at 500 yards is probably going to be comfortably under 1500 fps, with ~2 feet of wind drift.

@@Hoplopfheil mk262 wasn't even tipped. I think it was Dorr and Coch from tactical hyve.making that claim. They're ex SEALs.

@@Hoplopfheil It was 9 hole reviews, just this week, in their M4A1 review. The claim was made by Jeff Gurwich, US Special Forces, who has a channel called Modern Tactical shooting. He makes the claims starting at the 14:30 mark, when he says with the 14.5" m4a1 block II upper they *regularly* shot to 650 meters in ARM. I recommend watching it, it is also highly informative.

@@spearthumb68 No it was 9 hole reviews.

Not having to worry about the latest ATF ruling is worth it for me

@@poopoo7705 basically

100 percent

ill rebut that with they cost 200$ and at that point you may as well just buy a different barrel

@@cbulldog22 true enough about the cost, but barrels have one gas setting, they don't change, the gas block is what changes the amount of gas flow. So if you're bouncing back and forth between suppressed and unsuppressed and want to stick with a standard gas tube length then an adjustable gas block is necessary. And why not go with the best one?

@@Kross8761 And it's not like the other shit on his gun didn't cost way more than that gas block.

@@therealmccoy9948 very true, I also like that the riflespeed gas block is designed to be cross pinned so it's just as durable as the old school FSP gas block. I'm not a collector so I don't have a bunch of guns, every single one of mine has a purpose and they're made as fail-proof as I can reasonably make them. I don't begrudge anyone who does have 12 different AR's that's 100% their right, but I'd rather have 2 or 3 that are as 100% rock solid as I can make them. I have a 12.5 setup for 0-300 and then a 16 for 0-600 and then I have a bolt gun for long range stuff, the only thing I've really "cheaped" out on is glass for my long range setup because I'm not skilled enough to know what I really want or need yet, and my scope is decent, and certainly good enough to learn on and then upgrade when I have a better idea of what I'm actually looking for.

@@Kross8761 In my experience you shouldn't worry too much about getting the top of the line glass. The scale of diminishing returns drops off hard after about $300. Spend $300-$400 on an lpvo from vortex or primary arms and you'll be good. It doesn't take much to get good hits out to 600 yards. USMC qual to 500m with irons.

nitride does nothing for stainless steel.

@duroSIG556R that's not true. It is harder to nitride and maybe not as effective as nitriding a 4140 or 4150 barrel but it can be done successfully and help prolong the life of a stainless barrel. Though I will admit that I don't know which process of nitriding is necessary for it to be successful on stainless.

@@duroisgawd I came here to say this but knew in my heart that it had already been said.

@@duroisgawd Nitride makes a stainless barrel that is 30 Rockwell about 60 Rockwell so twice as hard and lasts much longer.

@@crashdsnowman1 not when it comes to stainless. The only benefit nitride gives yo a stainless barrel is corrosion resistance. Also if you listen to the video, the chamber is chromed. No other treatment to the bore.

Because the majority of blowback is from the barrel not the gas system

I cannot run a can on my 12.5 wolf.

That name and profile picture look strangely familiar 🤔

@@offshoresavage6608 SNL celebrity Jeopardy, Burt Reynolds

@@turdferguson2863 nah i use the exact same on Discord and a few other platforms. It’s yours here so rock on 🤘🏻.

I've been running my 12.5 for about 7 years with 3 different barrels that have been shot out. First was the bcm kino, then DD 12.5, and a Sionics which im currently running. I have never had a tuning issue with any of them and could pretty easily get out to 450 at my range. 550-750 were definitely pushing it but only in terms of energy on target. I had more issues with my 11.5 bcms and Criterions than my 12.5s but thats obviously only one data point. If I could only have one rifle its my 12.5.

Pretty sure it just comes from the velocity charts. It does not increase linearly with increased barrel length. There's spots where a 1 inch difference can either make a big difference, or almost no difference. If you look at the graphs, the biggest flat spot (aka the spot with almost no change in velocity) is the 12.5-14.5 zone.

@@jpowens2253 This is true, especially with heavy 75+gr bullet. My defensive load of choice (77gr TMK) gains an absolutely negligible amount of fps when going from 12.5 to 14.5.

@@jpowens2253 yeah, it's not a myth. There is truth that 14.5 and 12.5 arent different enough in velocity to be worth the extra 2 inches.

We have been making them steady since 2010, they are our second most popular length.

Personally Ive never needed more rail space than is provided by an 10.3/11.5 carbine. 13.7 + pin/weld edges out the 12.5 in my opinion.

FCD or Centurion are the go to for me

I got a criterion 12.5 carbine core and it's been pretty great with a suppressor and an h2. I have a 14.5 pin and weld setup but have been running the 12.5 mostly at the range lately.

@Florida Man HVACR exactly.

@@willtyler How is your 12.5 gaseed?

@@asdfghjk2933 good question, I don't actually remember because I pay little attention after getting things running. I suspect it was spot on unsuppressed. I can't remember how it did with the SDN-6, but will be paying attention soon when my stamp for the RC2 comes in.

@@willtyler Thank you, I appreciate it. I've been considering that exact upper, but I don't hear as much about it as I do the 11.5" variant.

@@asdfghjk2933 there is a current kino thread on arfcom if you want some inspiration!