LPVOs are Bad Now 

If you can make a good enough argument, you can make instagram gun people carry cap and ball revolvers

Hops gonna release his "Harry Potter and it's consequences have been disastrous to the human race" manifesto

i love how a community can spend hundreds (possibly thousands) of dollars on gear, never try it on the range, then says it sucks. Also some hardcore larping flags when you want a rifle that can flawlessly do both CQB and long range shooting. Your equipment can only do so much, what really counts is your training.

Breaking news: People don't use their gear. They just want their purchases validated by youtubers. (I agree with Hop and BF)

Counting Coup refers to a practice where Native American warriors would troll the enemy leader by getting close enough to touch them with a ‘coup stick’ on the battlefield without actually harming them.

It's crazy how all these "social" networking apps has turned gun guys into gossip girls.

LPVOs definitely have their place. I personally don’t have a use for one but that doesn’t instantly mean they’re bad. They truly shine as long term “shtf” optics due to not requiring batteries along with prism optics

*Pats my carry handled gooseneck mounted aimpoint red dot optic* “Soon the circle will make another rotation, and we will once again be cool.”

The real hot take: every piece of gear you're using has a downside, and what you're actually doing is selecting the downsides you're ok with. That's why different products exist in the first place.

Reminds me of how everyone was saying the Mossberg Shockwave was a useless piece of novelty garbage until Paul Harrel put up a video of him shooting like a total badass with it, and now everyone thinks it is a strong, cost effective role player in any arsenal. In other words, we always hope to buy what can only be gained through hard work and practice.

This aged well

In cast anyone is curious, “Counting Coup” is pronounced “Koo/Kü”. It’s the name of the Native American tradition in which warriors demonstrate bravery by running or riding up to an enemy in battle and simply touching or tapping them with their hand, club, or bow (not killing or wounding them, just touching) and then riding back without being killed. Those that made it back earned an eagle feather they could wear as a sign of their brave act. These would often be tied to their coup sticks or worn in their hair. So it’s vaguely similar to the idea in modern militaries of earning medals and wearing them on dress uniforms.

Hop is spot on about Harry Potter, it's the same with social media and terminally online people. Things are either good or bad, and short attention spans/need for cheap dopamine requires this decision be made in the most cursory and surface level way possible

“There are no solutions only trade offs.” - Thomas Sowell

World: LPVOs are over. Rex Engelbert: Exist World: Looks like LPVOs are back on the menu Boys!

I use a Primary Arms 1x8. Works absolutely perfect for me. I have been to multiple different advanced Rifle classes. Never seemed to be a disadvantage compared to all the other guys with Red Dots. I cant shoot you in the eyeball at 500 yards but can hit a torso at that distance with ease. No plan to change it out.

Make this a series, i.e. commentary on social media firearm hot takes (from within the firearms community).

Crazy what happens when people get out and train and use their gear instead of just letting their stuff be Safe Trophies 😂

I’m going to keep using an LPVO because it’s the easiest optic for me to use that can be magnified. I tried using a red dot and magnifier and all it does for me is make it harder to get back on target. I’d rather just have the one optic. For me as an out of shape civilian with no military training. I don’t think my choice of optic is going to be the thing that makes me less effective in a gun fight. Also I like how they look vs red dots and for me that’s what’s important

This is your weekly reinforcement that the insta community never actually uses anything they argue over ever (and it applies to fucking everything in existence shown on social media).

Next week on insta drama: Running any gear at all is silly and stupid. Just run around in the woods naked like God intended

This absolutely just needs to become a podcast

LOL. Nashville just proved otherwise

You know people don't run their gear by how much stuff being sold on tacswap is "brand new only mounted"

The best way to be immune to Instadrama is to not have an Instagram account. You miss all the pretty pictures, but you miss all the pretty BS too. Also, "coup" is pronounced "coo" because French.

Jack of All Trades, Master of None sums up the LPVO

Everyone need to keep in mind that the whole industry is wanting to sell more product.. So what we end up with is more and more RU-vid-social media channels reviewing products that were sent to them, or given to them, to insure a good review or steer others in a direction to buy the newest greatest thing... There are still a few good youtubers out there giving solid advice on very basic setups, Rifles that work, and optics that are proven. Try to see through the smoke and BS.. Buy what works for you, buy what you can afford, get proper training, keep it simple, and pray the shit never does hit the fan.. Great video.

Have LPVO, love LPVO. Thank you for having this discussion and making the point that “people buy what the internet people say to buy” & “people buy stuff and then don’t train with it”.

Hop: "You can't monetize stock placement." GBRS Group: "Wanna bet?"

You are actually right. People don't want to think and differentiate anymore. They just want someone to say Yes or No / good or bad for them. If someone makes a review about something and does not say "go buy it" or "dont buy it" at the end, they just count up the pros and cons in numbers and be done with it. Same happens in politics. People dont want to think so they just say yes to what ever their party says and no to whatever the opposite party says, no matter what it is.

I always wanted an acog and couldn't justify but if the market drops. You're doing the Lord's work

The people that come up with new things to gripe about every week or the same crew that put their Magpul flip ups on backwards and then when you point it out they say “that’s just how I rock um”

Some folks really do have too much time on their hands, not enough responsibilities and/or real problems.

The best way to avoid drama is, Avoid all social media and "news" media.

I bought a Vortex Strike Eagle a month ago and I love it. I put it on the gun that works for it, and I'll buy a different type of optic for other types of guns. Even my buddies get too caught up in "reviewer said thing so I am die hard for thing," and I'm glad I can just enjoy things for what they are

The only really downside to an LVPO is weight. But overall, I love them. They offer better ID at distance (1-6, 1-8, 1-10) VS a 3x or 4x magnifier attached to a red dot. Also, you aren't just stuck with a fixed 3x or 4x trigicon ACOG in a cqb scenario. LVPO has a fixed reticle, so the need for a battery is irrelevant or a failure in your electornics isn't a concern, which is always a possibility, and it's almost as quick as running a red dot.

I really need a long form video from Hop on how Harry Potter ruined Western Civ.

Within the first minute you had me on the floor laughing, in all seriousness I still like my LPVOs, the whole “1x isn’t 1x” hasn’t really thrown me off, my NZ6 has it extra bad because it’s closer to 0.8x and I still don’t have much of a problem, the closest I’ve gotten to 1X out of an LPVO is the Atibal X 1-10 You also hit the nail on the head with the whole “positive or negative” deal, the world isn’t black and white, stuff has it’s ups and downs

If your LPVO is “worthless” maybe you don’t train enough with it.

Thanks for introducing the concept "low contrast language" to me. Instantly loved the phrase.

It's hilarious how some people choose their gear by the latest social media drama, rather than just trying things for themselves on the range.

I went into this video ready to fight and was immediately met with laughter and I appreciate you guys lmao.

Hands down, I would definitely sit down and listen to Hop rant about his esoteric conspiracy theories for an hour and a half.👍

My face hurts from literally smiling the whole video.... Bravo fellas!

I just run all my defensive guns with NO sights. No optics. When will you ever need to aim in such a stressful situation. Point shoot out to 700 yards. I carry binoculars as an edc for target identification.

Think you nailed this one. I laughed out loud when you brought up the ACOG. It’s like when anyone claims anything is the best; my question is then “Best at what?” A hammer makes a poor screwdriver. I suspect people buy things before they have thought out the need/purpose/situation. At the same time we often have to experience the limitations ourselves before we understand the true pros and cons.

*Nashville PD has entered chat

After the recent school shooting, LPVO's are a thing again

My 3 considerations when researching to buy new stuff. 1) What's my end goal for this item 2) What features and details am I willing to sacrifice to get to that goal 3) What features and details am i absolutely not willing to compromise on. Make a mental list of these and apply them when researching any new item. Especially when it comes to more expensive purchases.. and i won't buy an optic having never before looked through the optic.

Love this discussion format. You guys have a good back and forth. On the subject of LPVOs and optics as a whole there will always be trade offs, I'm a huge fan of either LPVOs because they're the kings of the middle ground. A 1-8 can reach out to 1000m in decent conditions with training and a round with good ballistics but it can also be used in shorter ranges if required.

on 3-27-2023 Officer Rex Engelbert of the Metropolitan Nashville Police Department proved LPVOs arent THAT bad they are still kinda good

*Laughs in Nashville Metro Police Department*

Optic cant have downsides. Much like the user, it has to be perfect, flawless, with no cons in any way. Many such cases.

This is why I try to stay away from gun social media and Instagram especially these days. Lots of the community seem to really just be hypebeasts with untrained opinions that treat guns and gear like fashion accessories. It's total madness!

LOL, this was hilarious. I so funny how people follow trends with little to no thought about what they are doing. I have been using LPVOs for longer than the term existed. It started for me when I played with a browning 12ga slug gun that had a Weaver V3 on it (about 2004-5). I was sold, and it became the standard for me, for anything that needed to be lean & mean, but still have a little reach. Then Weaver release the 1.25 - 4.25 (I think 4.25) 30 mm with lit dot. Despite the weight creeping up a bit, still very practical. Then they exploded in popularity, everybody started making them, and of course they became more feature rich (and even heavier). Hopefully people figuring out they are not perfect, will lead manufacturers to maybe offer some simplified (lighter) versions. But of course it won't. Instead you will see them add adjustable objectives, laser range finders, and cappuccino makers to them.

Love my 1-8 FFP LVPOs and have no plans of changing them out. I train with them, they are quick to acquire, and versatile. All optics have imperfections of some type. Can't wait to pick some up at a discounted price! Harry Potter did screw up the western world, like the way the world was screwed up by that guy that didn't kill himself in prison when the cameras went off conveniently. X)

This is why I always recommend people try guns out at the range and maybe weigh in what the influencers say a bit afterwards. There are some accessories that have a large bell curve in their usefulness and some do not. I always explain it as knowing your application, then finding what fits that application. Most good ranges have guns you can try with varying optics. This will help you decide as well. It's the same thing with all types of gear. Some people think you need the expensive pants, shirt, belts, etc. Spend your money on quality applicable gear, and the rest on training. After you put some hours in on your $150 Vortex red dot, you may want to look into something else, but most likely you will be glad you didn't blow $500+. I give the real world example of how when I grew up I had a Remington 700 22-250 with an 8x Redfield optic on it (missing a scope ring screw). I still have it and can still drop coyotes out to 400yds. I have trained people with $5,000.00+ rifles who can't hit steel at 200yds and get frustrated. You need to just shoot and train a lot. It carries more value than your gear.

I started thinking about putting a EoTech and magnifier because I actually understood this because I train with my kit lol. But now that this concept is making people lose their minds, I think I’ll stick with an LPVO to stay away from Groupthink 😂

LPVOs have their place and are amazing for mid range engagements. I feel like the argument is based on CQB. Obtain and train with multiple setups and choose your kit based on the type of environment/application you're going to be working in. I use red dots for CQB and I also have an LPVO for mostly everything else. I've ran my LPVO in mid to short range courses and even when confronted with a close engagement, you really don't even have to rely on optics to hit your target. To close my comment out I must that I bought an ACOG and immediately sold it. ACOGs are buttcheeks.

I am using the Schmidtbender 1.1-4x20 short dot pm since 2007 until now. Way before LPVO becomes popular during these few years. It is still my favorite optic

Stock placement was way more fun because it was much stupider and less serious lol

I’m late into all this LPVO thing. I got the Strike Eagle 1-6x early model, but I hated the reticle; put it away. Then the Vortex PST 1-6x has far better glass, built the AR gave away very good parts. I needed something better in the power range, the Vortex PST 2-10x FFP/MOA with parallel adjustment. Perfect! For my 71-year-old eyes. 308W AR.

Does anyone have a link to the video about the 2-10 scope? I'm kind of interested in hearing the upsides of that.

On the next episode of “welcome to the internet” 🤣🤣🤣🤣

This points out exactly my problem with the group that says, “only have one general purpose gun, buying different set ups is a waste of money that you should’ve invested in other gear, ammo, and training.” It’s ok to have a long range hunting rifle, a home defense sbr/pistol with a red dot and magnifier, and a general purpose gun with an lpvo (or acog if that’s what you are into). Home defense guns don’t need a lot of live fire training (i know it’s debatable if the budget allows), but training at home with a chamber flag is a must. Save the ammo costs and range time for the general purpose and long range shooting, but don’t pretend a 16in 556 with a lpvo is working as good at home defense as my 6in 300blackout.

Guntubers are most guilty for the trend chasing in firearms. They need to produce content. The manufacturers love it

What're y'all's thoughts on prism optics? My fucked up eyes can't do a red dot cause it looks more like a red smudge so I kinda have to use them but, what about for people who can actually see?

I picked up a vudu 1-6x a couple years ago and it's still one of my favorite optics. Though I feel when you push a lpvo past 6x you start accumulating more downs than ups. For me the biggest downside will always be weight, it's an unavoidable aspect of the LPVO. And everyday I use an ACOG, that LPVO feels a little bit heavier.

Hot Takeaway: Pretty sure Harry Potter is to blame

I think a lot of people in the gun community just don't recognize what a purpose built weapon is. I think people get hyped watching GarandThumb videos and never realize that they won't need 99% of the equipment he reviews. I also understand it is fun to try and build a general purpose do it all rifle or a SHTF rifle but also recognize that every piece of equipment you choose to use will have ups and down. I also have a buddy that put it in a good perspective for LPVOs; don't think of it as just 1 a times reticle for CQB or a 8x or 10x or whatever for long range. You can have 2x or 3x target definition and PID depending on the situation. Magnification can be the difference between telling if someone is holding a phone, hammer, or a handgun.

Awesome discussion and input. Thank you.

We need more hot takes from hop. Call it HopTakes.

Thanks for the hard hitting reporting. I was just about to post my AR with a LVPO to instagram but I saw this just in the nick of time and avoided loosing clout. So should I go back to a red dot or do I need to at least get an EOtech to be relevant again? Edit: On a serious note. We HAVE to hear the conspiracy theory on how Harry Potter destroyed Western Civlization!

The nice thing about having all the simmunition platforms is that all the training we do (one big full day training for members per month) is that our people can bring whatever gear they want and then they have to train live fire but in addition, they have to train force on force with that same gear. So let’s say they bring their rifle, we switch out to a sims bcg and then they’ve got to fight in scenarios for as long or as many training programs that they want to see if that piece of kit is what actually works for them. You either win or die. This has been really helpful in getting past the social media crap. This applies to all kinds of kit. From optics, lights, lasers, yada yada yada. Otherwise there was just too much arguing. Thanks for the posting conversation.

I really think that firearm trends happen like this: 1: someone researches a question in hopes to find a clear answer 2: too much information overwhelms said individual and they default to what an expert or confident figure says/uses- even if it may be experimental or not fit their practical use case 3: That someone discovers, after hundreds or thousands of doll hairs spent, that they actually wanted something else that costs another equally damaging amount of money or dishearteningly less than what they originally got after a catharsis of what they actually need for their unique circumstances. 4: They recognize that they are speaking in hypotheticals to defer blame for trends on individuals that definitely aren’t me and you, because it’s definitely not me and you.

You guys really need to put these out once a week so guys like me who aren’t part of the cool Instagram crowd can get good deals

Good Video guys. The industry needs to understand pros and cons. Keep up the good work. LPVOS are not dead but people need to be educated and know the downsides. Thank you for the kind words mean a lot.

The cop who smoked the shooter in Kentucky rounded the corner in the school with his LPVO and ended that pronouns life very quickly. Also saw a cop pull up in a hostage situation where the prep was holding his baby and a gun. Cop pulled up, dialed to max power and ended that situation in a matter of seconds with a head shot. I love how quick a red dot is but the LPVO makes it a little more personal as the distances grow . You can decide exactly what part of the target you want to soften up first. It comes in handy when targets are partially obscured or wearing body armor.

"Counting coup" is touching your enemy and escaping un harmed. Coup d' etat is a seizure of power.

Everyone knows red dots with magnifiers are back in style.

I'm right handed but left eye dominant LOVO have been a life saver for me. The issue I have had looking for an LPVO was the reticle selection. I've found a red dot and magnifier also help with my vision issues.

I think primary arms rocked the lpvo world with the micro prisms. people realized you can have a good sighting system and it doesn't have to weight 1.5lbs.

Pheww, thanks for catching me up, I threw all mine in the trash after seeing the title card, hope I understood the mission correctly.

I'm essentially a gun newbie, yet even I had the sense to look through the burris rt6 I just bought at 2x and 1x and decided real freaking quick I'm going to need an offset red dot. The amount of people that don't think for themselves in many matters is worrying.

Great video. As someone who does not have a lot of experience or thousands of $$$ to try a bunch of different things, I will watch tons of different RU-vidrs on a particular piece of gear, then make ,hopefully a good one, my choice. I do not shoot thousands of rounds but just like to shoot, and have something with a little more capability if I need it. So for me the LPVO , with its faults, is the best choice for me.

Right now I think there's going to be a new sheriff in town soon. I think we're going to start seeing more optics like the primary arms 3x slx. Something that's lighter than an acog, has an etched reticle, and good holds out to distance like a LPVO. I think the do it all rifle idea is kinda dying though, people are starting to wake up to the performance loss at distance of shorter barrels. I think we're about to bifurcate into running shorties with dots/prisms and long boys with scopes again.

Your explanation on contrasting thought/language was interesting. I'm glad I'm not a sheep and always judge things through experience rather than through the opinions of others.

Every style of optic has downsides and strengths, thinking which strengths are good for you and which downsides you're willing to accept for those strengths is much harder than just getting what the hivemind says is the good choice.

If I recall correctly, both of you have mentioned in previous content how lpvo is inherently a compromised optic due to their comprised requirement. I feel like the American consumers is always caught up in ‘do-it-all’ products.

Acog enjoyers: sips wine

On the topic of optics does anyone know of a budget option for something similar to the Elcan? Also this is the first time hearing that LPVO popularity is falling. I like the concept of an LPVO but in use I was not a fan. I don't do any "real" shooting but the LPVO I experienced (some budget Vortex 1-8 i forget) never felt at home at the indoor range or the outdoor range. It was just always kinda awkward for me. I mean it did work but just something about it felt lacking. Hoping something like an Elcan would feel more natural where it's focus is a bit more tailored to either close or farther range and doesn't have to appease every yard in between. Never used or even been in the same room as an Elcan so could also be a terrible optic but again concept wise it interests me.

I love my acog 🤷‍♂️ Very unlikely you’re going to find that one piece of kit that does everything perfect

Just use what you’re comfortable and proficient with. Period.

What handguard is on the all black ar with the eotech Vudu?

What lower/accessory is that at 6:14?

Started with a red dot, then switched to a couple of primary arms prisms. 3x on a 16” and 2.5x on a 10”. Got an 18” and put a cheap 1-6 vortex on it. Switched the 16” and 10” back to red dot with magnifiers and traded the 3x to a buddy for some goretex. Wasn’t long after I started missing the 3x prism. Started thinking about another prism for my 16” …was torn between another 3x or 5x as well as primary arms vs sig, I really like the “shake awake” option on the sig but ultimately the more “proven” record of the primary arms recticle won out and I ended up with 5x. It’s on my go to rifle. Having used all these different set ups it is my personal favorite. But I don’t think any of the others are wrong lol.

I would LOVE to hear how Harry Potter novels ruined Western Civilization.

All types of optics have pros and cons ... mission specific

whats the upper at 0:19?

I liked your discussion on how nuance went out the window. Especially relatable as I notice critical thinking as a skill in people has eroded, meanwhile I'm the kind of person that spent hours measuring the merits of ar15 barrel material, forging style, and finish for my purposes.