Having to use an impressioning tool to open it is almost high security compared to some of the other gun safes that have been shown here in the past...
@SoundBubble, yea I think he disabled some with eating utensils lol and I believe he used a twiglet from one of the shrubs in his yard to defeat a "gun barrel lock" once.😄
He needs to create a playlist of flaws that are easy to fix so that people in charge of lock companies can tell their engineers, watch these... and don't do any of that.
He already has pretty much every flaw in the book on his channel. It's the lock makers, at that point, who should go through the videos and make their own cheat sheet. If they can't be bothered to do that, LPL making a playlist wouldn't do any good.
@@gbgentleman Art history majors are less likely to be arrogant about their lock design skills and more likely to do some basic research and find the LPL channel. ;)
It's more like " That will cost $7.00 more" So they keep the cheap lock as not to upset profits! Can't buy a new boat or a beachfront house wasting money like that!
@@the_undeadmost full size gun safes aren't very secure. Most can be pried open in less than 5 minutes. To get a high-security one you have to spend upwards of $3,000. Probably ninety-nine percent are easily broken into.
The biggest issue with the lock companies using "security by obscurity" instead of sharing commonly known do's and don't is what is fueling most of LPL's latest videos: not knowing what to prevent means making the same mistake over and over again. Thanks for trying to educate us all none the less LPL!
Hornady surely doesn't manufacture this themselves. They probably white-label it from some other vendor, and that vendor just doesn't care and Hornady didn't do any due diligence. As LPL noted, this issue is over 40 years old. If a safe designer hasn't gotten THAT memo, they're just not trying.
@@penfold7800 I meant that a lot of lock companies seem to just hope that most people don't know about these exploits, so they can just keep using the old stuff they have been creating as it's easier then using something more secure.
Honestly, if all it takes is a 1cm diameter metal pipe with one end pinched to create a few bumps to open this, I don't think you could call this security by obscurity. Because that sounds like the kind of thing a child could make with the right kind of pliers. Atleast picking a standard lock requires skill and knowledge about the mechanism. All LPL had to do was press and twist randomly until it opened.
For most long time lock companies the thing is not that they don't know. It's that most consumers don't know and still buy these subpar products. If the consumers were better informed the lock companies wouldn't keep getting away with this shit.
@@raven7207 We used the electric gas oven lighter / zapper. Just hold the metal of the lighter against the metal coin slot and pull the trigger. Each jolt was a credit.
Could you do a top 5 BEST locks for each field of application? That would be so amazing🙏🏼, because since I started watching you I felt like no locks are safe ever...
LOL That's because there aren't any locks that can't be picked. The only thing a lock can do is deter someone from taking the thing that the lock secures based on how long the potential thief thinks it will take them to defeat the lock. Even then, a lot of thieves just go for the crowbar and sledge option instead of trying to pick a lock.
When a lock box has two electronic means of access and needs to add a mechanical lock for backup in case a battery dies, there are multiple modes for security risks. Consumers see multiple locking methods and think "more security", but the locks are not in series. They're in parallel, which is less security.
@@tonyhawk123 I could just see Apple releasing one and the charging port is a completely new design which requires a cable that costs $39.99 (not included with safe).
YES! I wish people understood the concept of "or.". It's like the suburban/ outer boroughs banks that have a respectable vault door with a layer of drywall for a ceiling.
The main access is with the RFID reader. The keypad is in case you don't have your RFID key with you. The cylinder lock is in case the battery is dead.
I remember in a previous video that one of LPL's metrics for whether a gun safe lock is sufficient is if it could be expected to deter a curious adolescent, and I'm pretty sure most adolescents won't have a tubular lock impressioning tool. Is this lock enough to pass the curious adolescent test?
That depends, given the electronic components, there are two additional questions to ask to answer against a curious teen/kid: how many possible combinations are there to the keypad(see also: is there a limit to how many attempts can be failed in sequence on the keypad); how obvious is the card/item that contains the RFID chip to get in? For the first question, if the buttons can only be used once each, that's a short list of combinations, and even if they can if the code is short enough and there's no failure timeout, that thing is easily opened by a curious or bored teen. For the second question, we know the RFID bit is likely on a card, so depending on the safe's owner, there are only a handful of places the card might be hidden, and that's assuming there's not a backup card stored near the safe. I'd say this is likely the easier avenue to a bored or curious adolescent. Getting to the tubular core, it'd be up to what the kid tends to watch, cus LPL himself has said impressioning tools like that are cheap and easy to get on Amazon or at some stores (just not likely at chain stores since they use that kind of lock a lot), so while that bit might keep out a kid under 14 or so, if the kid gets a job and their own income, they might buy an impressioning tool for themselves to try and learn how to use it. Generally speaking, I'd say this lock fails at first glance, because I've not even shared the obvious entry method: kid sees an odd shaped key on the key ring and wants to find what it fits.
The reason we don't commonly use tubular locks is that any plastic tube of the right size can be used. He stopped showing how to do that, and the other "homemade tools" picking, when he felt people were using his videos more as "how to get into trouble" than helping them be safe.
Adding to Lee's point, with the rise of places that serve Boba Tea, the amount of straws alone large enough to make into a poor man's tubular impressioning tool has gotten much larger.
I would consider "requires a specialised lockpicking tool" (i.e. the tubular impressioning tool here, which comes at a significant cost) a high enough deterrent. I had hoped LPL finds a far easier flaw in this one, like the locking hook being able to shimmed with a knife or a piece of soda can, or the mechanism being defeatable with a hard bump or a magnet.
Using locksport to get over my nicotine addiction. It’s actually working really well. The locks unlocking helps stimulate the reward system part of my brain
My thoughts are they don't make the safe, it is just a rebranded one already produced by another company. Yes, the do produce some very good freedom seeds!
I'd be super interested to see what LPL uses himself for both general security as well as gun security. I can imagine he'd have a pretty serious set-up given his experience. Great video!
Not likely, He likely has a very simple wafer key lock box, if he even requires one. You forget most of these lock boxes are marketed and not needed. There is no federal law that states you must lock up your guns, State law on the other hand has other requirements in some. Yet most if not all states do not require boxes. They require some sort of safety lock. You know those cheap yellow locks. Lock boxes are not going to keep you out, just dropping this box will likely open it.
@@kameljoe21 oh righto. I'm from Australia so I have never really been exposed to these kind of security boxes aside from the odd LPL video hahaha. Thanks for the comment! Have a good one
Thanks LPL! I've now lost faith in every lock I've ever owned, currently own or will ever own in the future! Guess I'll go back to using the ole' baling-wire-in-the-hasp solution we had for our garage door when I was a kid (a few decades ago).......LOL, love your videos!
I would like to see a series where you take locks with flaws, but can be upgraded by beginner/novice lock enthusiasts to be more secure and closer to LPL Approved.
@@Cornz38 problem is almost no lock is going to be secure with someone such as the LPL. He has the knowledge but also the perfect tool for every job. Anything requiring a special tool to me is fairly safe and I venture if LPL wasn’t selling and showing people how to use it, most common criminals would not have the tools to quickly pick a number of the better locks he has shown over the years
@@ahastar1141 But LPL isn't going on a robbinsg spree is he (is he??). Again, you can have a 10 meter thick steel box but if all it has is a cheap crappy lock then it may as well be made of paper. This video and many others from LPL show what happens when bean counters are involved in the design process. They build to a price, not a standard.
@@ahastar1141 LPL has featured several locks on here which takes him a couple minutes to open. Yes, it was fairly quick work for him, but would present quite a challenge to the novice lockpicker. You don't need a lock which is impervious to highly skilled attacks. Someone who has the level of lockpicking mastery that LPL has isn't likely to be running around breaking into random houses. You need really something which will protect you from the person who watched a dozen LPL videos and bought the entire Covert Instruments catalog to begin/enhance their life of crime. If they can't pick the lock in a couple minutes, they'll move onto the next, or use a brute force attack. Decent locks are just one piece of good security. Keep your property will lit, with good surveillance, and most of all, maintain decent operational security (OpSec) If you give your neighbors tours of your home including the gold bars locked behind even a high-quality safe, don't be surprised when somewhere down the road you come home to a missing/picked/busted safe and no gold bars.
@@Cornz38 but in the case of a hole gun lock box no criminal is taking the time to pick it. They’ll just take the whole thing and force it open. A teen may do it if they know about the issues with a particular lock or if they buy the proper picking tool from LPL. I would say the LPL is probably a lot of people’s first experiences with particular locks issues. My point is in this video he showed with the right tool this is easily opened. How many people are going to have this tool or know the ball point lighter method. I get where you are coming from but all locks have vulnerabilities. The question is whether or not the person or likely person to attack that lock is going to have the proper tool or knowledge to attack it quickly
Yes and no. Most young children won't have a tubular lock pick like that, so other vulnerabilities of this safe would be more interesting. A burglar will bust open or grab the whole safe anyways.
He has videos of him single-pin picking tubular locks and bypass other gun lockboxes with random household objects, and his standard for such devices is "curious adolescent" rather than "young children". The tubular lock is the easiest way to show how weak the mechanical lock is and can be defeated with other tools.
Isn't your typical test for a gun locker whether it keepsthe gun safe from a "curious adolescent"? I doubt that a teenager would have access to this tool. The gun safes you featured previously can usually be broken into with something like a piece of plastic, or just a few seconds of trial and error. This one actually seems pretty secure.
well, it should be obvious that this safe probably has a maximum of 15 combinations.. (it obviously has 4 keys, and probably the right ones have to be pressed simultaneously. so 16 combinations of depressebnd and not depressed keys possible, and you obviosly have to remove the none depressed combination, so 15 remain, possibly even less if there are additional restrictions)
@@unitrader403 It's electronic, not mechanical, so I'd assume that it's programmed with a sequence of buttons, not a combination of keys depressed simultaneously. But if that were correct, you'd be right, it would be relatively simple to guess the combination unless there was also some sort of countermeasure programmed in to specifically slow down that attack (e.g. after 3 wrong combinations, the computer locks the keypad for 5 minutes). Even then however, I think someone with regular access (e.g. a child living in the home) could probably easily figure out the combination eventually.
Certainly a "better" lock would be "better", however agreed that (as with most of these videos that rely on specialized tools) the actual risk is high only in an edge case (skilled picker, has specialized tools and the knowledge to use them, has time without risk of getting caught, etc.). Here its unlikely that an insider threat (adolescent) will have a tubular lock decoder tool, and for piece of mind put a strip of tamper tape across the lock to see if someone inside is messing with it. For an external threat, having the specialized tooling, skill and inclination to open it on prem is likely extremely low (steal the box, smash the box open, etc. are much more likely).
WE love your videos LOVE LOVE LOVE... What WE'D like to see are "some" products that you DO LIKE. It's Fun and Great watching you destroy inferior locks. But what we NEED is to see are some GOOD/BETTER products that we can use to safeguard our stuff. Thanks and defiantly keep up the great work.
I completely agree! On his 'About' page: "Please note that I do not recommend locks". Okay, but what am I supposed to do? Lock makers will not change or improve until it impacts them financially. He's made it clear that I shouldn't buy most of the locks on the market, but since I still need to use locks, I don't have a choice. So, unless he tells us who we SHOULD be buying from, nothing will ever change.
It's cool (and unfortunate) that you can use a specialized lock picking tool to open this gun safe, but hardly anyone has one of those. Your typical burglar most likely doesn't.. they're most likely just looking for jewelry and happen across this gun safe. Could a low end version of this tool be used, like the barrel of a large pen or something like that? How well does it hold up to a brute force attack? Can it be pried open with a flat blade screwdriver? Can you throw it on the ground to force it to come apart at the seams? Inquiring minds want to know! 😀
I love your work! I think it would be great to see how the insides of these look and/ or how and why this picking process and tool actually work to defeat this- thank you
Against the "curious adolescent" standard, this means that the real task of breaking into this box is finding the lockpicking tool. For households where such tools aren't present it would make this box as secure as its RFID key, which is as good as you can get while allowing for rapid authorized opening.
Real task is finding the key, not tools. I'll bet that at least 80% of unauthorized opening of locks by household members involves the key (or RFID card).
Like a vending machine that takes your money and gives you nothing this box worked perfectly for the seller. Like Master lock they don't care if it's secure just that you buy it. Welcome to Murica
It would depend a lot in what you want from this device. The more easy you want it for you to be quick opened and the more important it is for you to carry it around the more vulnerable the device will be for picking or theft. If you don't have the intension to move it around, take a safe that is bolted to the wall and weights at least 300 lbs/150 kg. If you don't have issues with needing a little more time to open it, take a safe that needs two or more different locks combined to open it (not as in the video where you can use a combination, or a key or an RFID-tag... I mean one where you need all three together to open it). But than it will be less conveniant for you as well to open it.
The best security when it comes to firearms, for you and your loved ones, is training, training, training, training and more training. Respecting a tool that can easily injure or kill is of utmost importance.
It would be nice to see this same video but using the pen tube. It would shut down the "yeah, but how many people have lock picking tools like that?" argument.
I mean, my kid and most people entering my home dont have a tubular lockpick. I dont get the criticism for 99% of consumers. If this cant be raked, jiggled, opened with a magnet, doesnt have exposed hinge pin, etc. and NEEDs some special tool then that's pretty good. As long as the tools needed aren't something found in my normal garage (short of my sawzall or sledge) this will keep most people out of my gun safe as far as I can tell.
Most people don't have specialist lockpicking tools but I've seen cheap tubular locks devices defeated using a ball point pen (e.g. bicycle locks defeated using a Bic pen). The important lesson is that most locks can be defeated, the only difference is time.
@@timschommer8548ou do remember him saying that that tool was for sale on his website right? I'm pretty sure this is a marketing thing because any lock picker knows that that type of lot can be picked with your regular Old goat wrench for sale at sparrows and any lockpick or paperclip
I used to do ict support with laptops etc. And when people forgot keys to their Kensington locks, we got them open by jamming in a rolled up analogue email (a thick envelop).
@@Nova_Afterglow lol. Ya. Clearly they would be far more intelligent than most of us that have access freely to firearms. Point being that the safe is more to keep small hands off the contents. Not to keep thieves out.
@@blarfroer8066 They aren't meant to prevent against theft of a firearm, that's what gun safes are for and are generally secured to the fabric of the building.
@@machinegunhippy I personally have mine at the ready. I'm more curious if there is indeed a product LPL would deem suitable, rather than easily exploitable
You know, a really simple way to stop people from picking these, would be to put a spring loaded cylinder in there, where you can't keep it in the unlocked position, and then simply put a second lock on the box. They could send two keys with it, and you have to use both at the same time to bypass the keypad. How many people would have two of those picking devices with them? I would bet less than 1% of even the best locksmiths would anticipate needing two of those tools.
Given your combination position of being a security expert, father and gun owner, it'd be interesting to know what products you DO recommend for this (I honestly only remember you featuring bad products in this category)
Even if you don't have an impressioning tool, tubular locks are fairly trivial to open through single pin picking. I've had to do this at work dozens of times before to avoid throwing away devices for which they keys to their tubular locks were lost. Pick them to position zero, remove the useless lock, and pop in a new one with a key. Saves tons of money for about 2 mins of effort.
I have an idea for a theoretically unpickable lock. The idea is that the lock makes you put the key in, turn it to the right, push the key in further, then turn it to the left. The thing that would make it unpickable is that, when you get to the part where you push the key in further, there is no more tension on the pins, and if they fall they get locked in place until the lock is put back in the starting position. It would make it require a key, but using the right tools, it wouldn't be too hard to get a new key made. What do you think?
I can imagine some way to make a lock (nearly) unpickable. The problem is just: It would also make it very hard for you to open it. Think of the 1st John Wick movie, where he has hidden his gun case in the concrete of the fundament of his house and had to use a pick (axe) to even get to it.
I look at that safe, also being an avid shooter, 2A advocate, father, and prior military. And I believe the mechanical backup being what it is as an advantage. Being a 2A and gun safety advocate, I have normalized firearms and handling around my kids since they were really young. Teaching them gun safety and how to shoot. Of course, when my kids were too young to really understand. My firearms were put away and locked up. But once they were old enough, our home security firearms are not put up or locked up. Both of my kids, my daughter and my son, are both a part of our home security plan. We have drilled our reaction to multiple different home self-defense scenarios. So, I have no concern about my kids being able to pick the lock. The lock on the safe should absolutely be the last line of defense. Home security systems, good door locks, anti-shatter glass in vulnerable windows, etc. Also, 95 to 98 percent of people who see that tubular lock wouldn't know its security flaws, let alone have the awesome Covert Instruments tubular lock impressioning tool. So, I see it like this. The primary method of entry is by the RFID and the 4 button code. Meaning the keys will end up in a junk drawer somewhere and therefore lost to the ether or just as likely to be kept in the safe itself. Being absolutely useless in event of primary mode of entry failure. So, the relatively low skill necessary to open the safe in the event of said failure is an advantage. It's less costly for the locksmith to open it (or to buy the needed tool), and since the safe doesn't have to be destroyed or otherwise compromised, rendering it unusable. It is less expensive than having to pay to have a locksmith destroy it to get it open, and then the cost to replace it. I think sometimes we are so focused on the level of security or lack thereof. We lose sight of the bigger picture, like the environment and context of what the security device is being used for. Just my two cents. Thank you so much for all you do. You have inspired me to start picking locks. I went out and got a lock pick set and have been relatively successful. In fact, before my set, I could make it in the mail. I made a standard type hook and tensioning tool and found an old brinks lock cylinder to pick. It took me about 30-45 minutes, but I got it, and I haven't been that excited in years, lol. I was even more stoked because by watching your videos, I learned how a spool pin acts as it's picked. Of course, I couldn't know for sure until I took it apart. But once I did, I found 2 spool driver pins. So my first lock pick was with homemade tools, and in 30 to 45 minutes, I got through 2 spool security pins. I've been hooked ever since. Thank you again
In reality, as it required a special tool it passes his "cannot be opened by a curious kid" test. A lot of the gun storage units he has tested can be opened with a paperclip. This one might fall into that category looking at the latch mechanism but he did not show that.
Considering that a special tool is required to pick the lock which only a professional thief might have, this doesn't seem bad. Every lock can be picked, nothing is absolutely secure. I'd still buy this if I didn't already have one.
It's very important to understand that locks are not there to prevent unauthorized access but to delay it. When the delay is measured in seconds it's a crap lock.
I love your videos. Have you thought about making your top 10 gun safe? If you do that would be a good thing for guns owners than want to keep their firearm out of others people hands
LPL should try to open this one with a low skill attack. I know he's done a few in the past on other product. It wouldn't be too redundant to open that box with something other than an expensive and specialized tool. Great advertisement for it though.
Also some locks that are resistant to stealth attacks. It's okay if they can be cut or forced, so long as they can't be opened and relocked without our knowledge.
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I use that same tool for the tablet mounts at my job. I inevitable get called to the other facility to help with equipment acting up and no one ever has a key. Their eyes bug out when I can pop the locks on their "high security" mounts in just seconds.
Years ago the lady was filling vending machines and had a issue with the tubular lock. I don't remember the specifics but she asked me for a pair of pliers, she then came back upset and said her key was not working. She asked if I knew anything about locks? I said not alot but I would take a look at it. I really don't remember what all I did but I would say it was a very low skill attack and I was able to get it working for her. I had no special tools just the permission to try to get it open. Now that I have watched loads of your videos I realized that they are not that hard to pick especially if you have alot of time to play around with it.
LPL I'd like to suggest a video concept; where you find a decent product similar as this one and you replace the lock with one you would want to have in it , that is secure. We could all follow a similar idea. Start with decent product & modify it with an upgraded lock. I'm not an engineer by far, but there's no sense in reinventing the wheel.
One minute 15 seconds to describe the issue, the company in question, their field of expertise, the lock type, the history of the vulnerability, and the kind of tool he's going to use. Total video length, including the outro we know is coming: 1:59. That's when you know it's gonna be good.
I thought you were gonna close it with the impressioning tool still in it! But then again, the keys were still in the table. It looks way more fun to open locks with that tool than with the intended keys.
I bought his tool to open my gun safe. It didn't fit (I had to drill them out) but I was able to open all of the other tubular locks I tried in seconds. I don't trust tubular locks anymore.
This channel has really strengthened my opinion that we need much heavier restrictions on gun ownership. The argument that responsible gun ownership outweighs irresponsible gun ownership falls apart for many reasons and the fact that gun safes are a joke is just one.
A lock box like this is simply meant to prevent curious children from obtaining unauthorized access, not prevent theft from a capable adult. Seeing as how a specialty tool is needed to exploit its one flaw, as opposed to most other lock boxes that can be opened with a plastic shim or piece of wire, I'd say Hornady offers a very good product here.
As an avid shooter myself, I have a large and much more secure way of storing my firearms with the exception of 1 pistol. I have a box similar to this one, the sole purpose of which is to keep little hands off of that pistol should they find it. The only time the pistol is in that little safe is when I am home, so I have no worries as to theft. I personally like the backup key system in case the electronics one day fail.
If the Lock is the worst Point of it. It's a big improvement over gunsaves that Open by a wire, fork or alike. U just have to Glue tight the Backup Lock.
The back up is almost always crap on these kind of products. Why do they have a backup at all? Silly. If someone miss the RFID and the code, let them machine themselvs into the box. That way we have 2 good points: - As there is no back up, the owner gets more pressure to keep track on valid keys and code. - The poor back lock is not pressent, highly impove the safty of the product. It will still be possible to get in without the proper RFID-key or code, but will be much more difficult.
Okay, I was legit expecting you to shut that door and then go "and now I'm going to do it again, with the impressioning tool locked inside, with only improvised tools."
every lock is there just to make access slower, anything can be picked or forced open if you have time. And in this kind of handgun box, most likely it is to buy ten seconds of time. I mean, i have gunsafe with such a bad lock it would take maybe minute or two to pick or 5 mins to break the hinges, but still that is time not getting access to guns and alarms are already going. Open the closet where safe is, you trigger alarm, keypad for disengaging that is on another floor and out of sight.
You know there is a subtle subtext to these lock manufacturers of "you have to do better than this" when the video's preamble takes longer than the lock picking.
I think LPL should make a video of changing the lock in a reasonably good safe, and fixing other flaws if necessary. And show these companies how to make a good design better to a point their product is a usable one to LPL standards. Not necessarily pick proof, but should at least have measurable resistance.
I have an easy to open floor safe by my bed with an old beater .22lr pistol and a bit of ammo in it. On top of it, under a wash cloth, I have my Ruger 101 s+p loaded and ready. With no kids in the house, I do not have to worry about curious teenagers, and visitors even scarcer than kids! LOL
![[1523] Hornady “Rapid Safe” Keypad Lockbox](/img/logo.svg){kind=logo}
