As a former french horn player and former Mormon, it always annoyed me that I couldn't play at church, even though the stupid angel Moroni was playing a trumpet on the top of our temples. It always seemed really stupid and arbitrary to me, especially as a classical music buff (I have a classical music RU-vid channel with 53K subs) that brass instruments (for example in Handel's Messiah and Bach sacred music) that have been traditionally used to portray the glory of God, were somehow not OK in Mormon services.
Richard. I couldn’t agree more! I’m an organist. As a youth, I often called to be the ward and stake organist and was pretty dawg gone good, if I don’t say so myself. One of my bishops was really cool and kind of liked the more upbeat, louder pieces that I would play either as solos or as postludes. But, most “leaders” liked the quieter, dirge-like pieces - argh!!!! I left the church in the late 80s and have noticed that the “approved” music for wards is mostly the hymns - many of which are horrible musically. I’ve even played a few ward or stake organs and have noticed that they’ve restricted the maximum volume on them as well. How horrific. Talk about squelching any kind of creativity or trust in the musicians. And, like you, I’ve never understood why other instruments, played well, couldn’t be played in ward meetings. When I visit a ward with family members, if just feels as if the church has beat the life out of the meetings - everything is so tamped down. Argh. Thank goodness I’m out and playing for an Episcopal church where we can really sing and play out. BTW - I just hired a brass quartet for Easter along with timpani. With the organ, we’re going to raise the roof and I love it!
Very entertaining, Lizzie exudes theater adult! Can not wait for parts 2 and 3. Also, loved how natural and comfortable Cara continues to get. Her personality and humor really shines through in this interview.
I grew up in the Baptist church and can identify with some of the Mormon stories. We had camps, plays, parties, etc. I was definitely all in (dad played the organ for church and mom taught Sunday school) but I kind of wish I grew up in Utah after hearing Lizzy's story. There weren't a lot of good girl Christians in school in California. I didn't have many friends and couldn't understand why other kids were so sinful.
There was a lot of good growing up in Utah! I am really grateful I was surrounded by kids who were more interested in having fun and doing good than pushing limits and being shocking or rebellious for the sake of it.
My whole family played brass growing up, three trumpets, a french horn, and baritone/tuba. We were ALLOWED to play in the parking lot one year. I recall we graduated to at least the foyer for a Christmas program.
She’s fun but kept on cutting everyone off. I was so sad for her husband not being able to finish what he was trying to say soooo many times. Still fun 🤩
Is this my old friend Lizzie That I lived across the street from when we were 13?? Haha. I think so! Lizzie, if you see this, Jessie Cheney says hi! 😬😂 Let’s get a drink and catch up!
What does it mean when you guys say "shelf items". I love Mormon Stories Podcast and learning about different faith deconstructions. I was raised Catholic (then more Christian) and it is very interesting learning more about this high demand religion.
There's a quote from a woman who was the wife of a church leader. She was giving a talk about what to do with your doubts. She recommended you "put them on a shelf" mentally and later, when you're reading your scriptures or praying, maybe some answer will come and fix the doubt... well, the ex-mos have taken that idea and run with it. Because, eventually, you put this on your shelf and that on your shelf, and then you have a big doubt or big realization that "breaks your shelf" OR you look at your shelf and you see the ENTIRE church doctorine sitting on that shelf, there's nothing that is not on the shelf. Everything is a mess.
@@unicorntamer2207 THANK YOU SO MUCH! It has been a year since I left that comment and having that background puts so many things into perspective. Sincerely, thank you so much for taking the time to leave that explanation!
@@maria_tea_ You're very welcome. Yeah, "shelf breakers" are a big part of people's stories. There's another ex-mo content channel called Zelf on the Shelf because of this very idea. It's a good channel. "Zelf" comes from a Joseph Smith story. Joseph and his buddies were walking through the woods, and they came across an old human skeleton. Joseph says, "I'm getting a vision from God right now that this skeleton belonged to Zelf, who was a good, white Lamanite, and a great warrior." And Joseph's friends were very impressed. The Book of Mormon has Lamanites, who were the bad guys of the story, and they had dark skin, so Zelf was extra special... or the skeleton was just someone who had passed away in the woods and had nothing to do with The Book of Mormon that Joseph wrote.
Not having Moroni on the temples is pretty significant 😲 I’ve said before, as a nevermo, why can’t the church just stay the way it is but without the BoM….. but of course the whole narrative would fall apart if that didn’t happen.
Lizzy Bean quipped "Little Suzy, learning clarinet, could squeak her way through 'I am a Child of God', and somehow that brought the spirit." Lizzy is hilarious!
Loving this extraordinary story! I'm a convert, and recently stepped away because I researched the church history and found out the "real history", and was heartbroken... This created stress of not trusting in the organization, and growing from that. I've still got a lot to learn going forward, with essentially the same values, and wanting truth to be aligned with my values. Excellent show! ♥️
The "Couples finding out the truth and leaving the church together" interviews always resonate with me. Like so many others, it's mine and my wife's story as well. These particular podcasts/interviews in my opinion, have to be the most damaging to the church. Just normal people that undeniably exude goodness, are getting out because it is fundamentally not good. The Cody and Leah Young interview really resonated with both of us. One could see and hear from Cody, just how much he loved the church and how hurt he was to realize it is all a lie. The hurt/trauma was all over his face. And as my wife pointed out - probably nothing more terrifying to a true believing Mormon than to realize that family and friends aren't leaving the church to go sin. No, they're leaving because it's simply not true. That's the reality. We live our lives and are raising our kids little different than before. Our values are mostly the same. We're just no going to church -will never go back - and subject ourselves and our kids to the shame culture.
I totally believe that 98-99% of missionaries are out there purely due to social pressure, and not because they're actually personally convinced or converted to anything. The pressure can be intense: parents, grandparents, neighbors, ward members, teachers, girlfriends, girlfriends' parents, etc., etc., etc. I remember when I was at USU, girls trying to wrestle with and reconcile the fact that although I wasn't an RM, maybe I had still some redeeming characteristics anyway. Needless to say, if I had it to do over again, I would have reacted differently.
Ahhhh Lizzy, Spencer, Carah, I’m so happy this podcast is happening 😊❤️ So good to see my old friends talking about things that need to be talked about more 🙏🏼 I needed this, very badly 😞 So glad to see you all!! Love you!!! ❤️
I love Mormon Stories and I’m a huge supporter of what you guys do, but it felt a tiny bit misleading during the intro when John said this couple were not “influencers.” I enjoyed Lizzy so much in this that I looked her up online afterward, and she has more than 28,000 followers on Instagram! She appears to have a significant online presence and social media following, so she doesn’t quite fit into the “ordinary, everyday Joe” category! I still loved the interview and she’s hilarious, but maybe just be careful when introducing people so that it’s always 100% authentic. 👍🏼😊
Hi Laura! I happened to notice your comment and just wanna respond to it. Hope that’s ok. I truly am not much of an “influencer.” Spence and I run a very niche company, Stitch People, that has a chunk of followers who are into a niche segment of cross-stitchers. Some of them follow my personal account, too, but not the majority. Honestly, when we moved to LA in 2017, my acting agent advised me to hire help to grow my following so I wouldn’t potentially lose an audition/booking based on my social media numbers (it happens). So it’s a bit artificially inflated from that time when someone was hired to help me grow. It looks like I have a big following but due to algorithms my engagement is very average/normal. I honestly only posted to IG last year maybe a dozen times? Im only now embracing reels as a fun and funny way to spend time here and there. I’m sorry you felt misled! I hope this rounds out the story!
@@lizzydabbean Thank you so much for your response Lizzy! I honestly didn’t even realize that social media following had an influence on booking jobs, but that totally makes sense now! I definitely see what you mean and I really appreciate you taking the time to explain a little. I’ve really enjoyed the first two parts of you and your husband’s story and I’m looking forward to the third part tomorrow!
@@laurag725 crazy right!? Sometimes it really does come down to that perception of “social reach” 🙄 what a world we live in! Thanks for writing back! I just didn’t want you to feel too hoodwinked! I generally stink at social media 😂 trying to play with it a little but 🤷♀️ who knows where it’ll go!
I also thought he meant ex Mormon influencers on the topic of Mormonism to be honest because they’ve had a lot of that type of “influencer” on in episodes lately. Just to add another perspective. This interview was fantastic btw, in case Lizzy sees this comment 👌🏼 you had me cracking up. From a nevermo who watches a lot from Canada
Great interview......but, as a neverMo, it bothers me to think that grown adults believe that the guy they call the prophet has a two way line to a god. Any person, who if they admitted this would be locked up in a padded room for being delusional, but, this guy gets a pass!!.....wt actual f!!!.......definite double face palm. Now, onwards to part 2!!.....doing great guys!! PS: Tim Minchin is an absolute legend down here in Oz!!........some of his earliest stuff is the bomb!!
Listening to this podcast right now and just needed to pop over to say this. Lizzy! What an amazing story teller! Also how are you not a comedian. I think you could do stand up just saying.
I am not Mormon, but related to this so much! I grew up in Buffalo, NY, remember the television ads for the pageant in Palmyra. Married a guy from Idaho, and visited his family a few times. Culture shock for sure, and I only stayed 2 weeks at a time! Great story! Thanks for sharing.
You guys geeking out over musical theatre made me so happy (:(: and hearing about Lizzy 's music experience too! I played oboe in HS and piano my whole childhood and music was Sooo much my identity as a kid. I also have weirdness with it, like Lizzy with her trombone, but I want to get back into it. (:
I was most fascinated in hearing about the musicals and how the choosing based on the areas. I am a member and have never understood the weird standards when it comes to liking some musicals and not others. I loved this whole sedition about musicals. Haha
NeverMo fan here. My daughter was 11, son 14 (also a 27 year old bachelor son agreed to move with us to help take care of my aging father) when we moved here to the epicenter of Zion, Utah County, 11 years ago. This is very relatable as my daughter was in musical theater, soccer, and went to a lot of YW ward/stake events, dances. Son was in baseball, so we’ve experienced Utah Mormonism firsthand. The homogeneous nature of the communities is both admirable and annoying. There are several Christian churches that have managed to stay open and the landscape has changed drastically in the last few years!
I watched Les Mis at the Hale once and it was very funny because I specifically remember a few of the actors who were literally singing songs about sex but wouldn’t say a single “swear word” … it was wild to hear them, like, talk about dicks and the next line refuse to say “shit”
I can't tell you how many times I've listened to this episode and part 3 of their interview. It has to be over 2 dozen. Those two episodes in particular are my comfort listens when I'm stressed and I find super uplifting and a million other things! Thank you Lizzy and Spencer for telling your stories ❤🎉 and thank you John and Carah for being simply splendid 🎉
I relate to Lizzy SO MUCH! I grew up in New Jersey, the church head hunted my dad who was working on Wall Street in NYC to work for Ensign Peak (the money arm corporation of Mormonism). And Utah was a very disappointing and painful culture shock!!! The beginning of my faith cognitive dissonance started when I met Utah Mormons in high school. I can not believe how similar our “Mormon stories” are!
I’m from the east coast and moved to Minnesota (same passive aggressive fake nice). I was told at work on a review that I was too direct. I work in medicine. If there’s an area that you need to be direct this is it. My teens said the same thing that they felt way ahead in school when they came here. They felt like they were a year ahead.
That's super interesting about your kids noticing an academic delay here. I felt like Mormonism ate up much needed homework and family time doing things we needed to accomplish as individuals. I am not surprised to hear that Utah culture might slow education because of distractions or other contributing reasons. One of my theories is that parents think the church will teach their kids everything they need to know. So there's less discussion and critical thinking at home.
Tim Minchin is a legend. I sing one of his songs every time I bring my reusable bags to the supermarket. Start with “Thank You, God”, so effing funny and logically sound.
I am so glad I never grew up in this church. Writing a letter to my future husband? What the hell? Are the young men writing letters to their future wives?
Does anyone remember when church had a lot more culture? There used to be regular dances, potlucks after church, priesthood dinners at general conference, youth activities including camp, ward service events, and talent shows. That all seems to be gone now.
The church really has become so incredibly boring. The more tithing they suck from members, the more people have to work and have less free time for road shows and potlucks. And the church has to stop the programs that invite more manipulations, lawsuits and abuse. The church is a good hiding place for predators. So now it's a quick sacrament and some primary songs. Maybe a Trunk or Treat if you got the poorly communicated message 😂.
There are Catholics in SLC who also have this "release time" for classes. The church helped them start it. I think not playing a brass instrument is a stake thing not a church thing. We had a guy who played professionally the trumpet and he played in our branch. I LOVED Next to Normal...USU performed it in about 2015 or so. Something Rotten... Hadestown...The Play that Went Wrong...Phantom of the Opera... Lizzy your personality is infectious!
WOW- it took me 3 listens- because I wanted to hear every minute. It was so interesting to hear her experiences that validate the “When It Works It’s Awesome” phenomenon here. My neighbor just started working at BYU, I think in the Music/Fine Arts department … her 2 kids go there, her husband works for the Church. The Bishop’s daughter was in that international troupe. It was amazing training, costumes, opportunity to travel. She’s now 23, married, pregnant. My daughter’s old JH musical theater teacher is now the head of Dixie State and did a lot of work here in Utah valley so I’m sure you know him! True story: The 2 leads in “all” the musicals my daughter was in are now married with a toddler and 1 on the way. Such talent being … at best on hold, at worst never fulfilled- by both of them. But it’s working for them (at least on the outside) like the other 80% of the drama kids. The other 20%? Those are all future MS interviews. I’m going to be all ears to find out: If/how/why/when your shelf broke since you were in the 80% so recently! PS: the reason you didn’t vote Pirates 🏴☠️ of Penzance or Phantom is you’re a little more worldly. I think it’s some kind of unwritten rule that every JH & HS drama class in Utah performs those at least once. Or twice. Costume borrowing is a real thing here in Happy Valley
Oh do I feel this episode on a whole new level. My stats raised in Orem, graduated HS in ‘08 left LDS in ‘09 & managing leaving while in UT county still was quite the dance. All the culture/byu stuff.. Its too true!
I just wanna throw out there that pursuing an MRS. Degree is not confined to BYU or Mormon culture. As an alumnus of the University of Alabama and a Never Mormon, I can attest that the University student body was made up of primarily Baptist/ Church of Christ/ Pentecostals and that I went to school with women whose sole mission was to get into the right sorority so they could have swaps with the "right" fraternities that had pre-med or pre-law male students. They weren't interested in getting a degree because their primary goal was to become a socialite medical doctor's wife with a part-time volunteer gig at the public library or as a real-estate agent and a full-time member of the Junior League.
Question from a nevermo who grew up in Independence and actually graduated in the temple because it was the biggest building in the area - is the Mormon Temple and spiral building not that cool to Utah Mormons? I got the impression it was big stuff and cackled when John said, "And maybe Independence."
I googled this because I wasn’t sure what you were referring to. Looking at it, I think that spiral building is fly as hell! It’s likely not cool to Mormons at all, however, because it appears to be a Community of Christ temple or, in other words, it belongs to the RLDS church - Reorganized CoJCoLDS. A faction of Mormonism that followed Joseph Smith’s son after Joseph Smith was killed. They’re way more progressive than the “Brighamites” (those who followed Brigham Young / mainstream LDS.) You would not have been able to go inside a Mormon temple, due to their sacred exclusivity. I think it’s really cool you were able to utilize a local religious building for such a great community-based reason like a graduation! If only Mormon temples operated the same way!
This story has been fascinating but I really enjoyed the musical nerd section at the end! I wish I could talk about musicals with this lady, we would go on for hours! The part about content of shows is interesting, it’s important to remember that just because your show has “Immoral“ things that happened in it doesn’t mean that it’s bad. You both have great taste in musicals. John, if you have never watched Urintown you should, it’s weird but it’s amazing! Tim Minchin is great! I can understand why people wouldn’t like Les Mis even though I love it to death. Joseph, specifically the movie with Donnie Osmond, was one of my favorite things and it was the first show I ever went to see. Thank you for this little section of this episode that was completely in my wheelhouse!
I took many music education classes with Dr. Dab. He was one of the main reasons I was sad to leave the program and just get a general music degree when I decided that teaching wasn't for me. I was a clarinet major that also knew how to play the violin, so he treated me like one of his string focused education majors and I loved learning how to play the cello, bass, and viola from him. He was so encouraging and understanding. I've loved listening to this story and getting back in touch with my musical Mormon side. Thank you for sharing!
We were a novelty so it was bad, but not horrible. Our family was so golden the Ward Captain told us: “I think you’re closet Mormons. You’re going to come out one of these days” We didn’t. I know the ward was really disappointed, they tried everything. There’s a certain advantage of not being a member but having really nice neighbors.
I don’t think it’s Mormon in origin, just a nasty judgmental way to describe divorce. I’m glad my parents split up, they’re both amazing people and parents.
Hey there - I'm catching up on comments and want to thank you for yours. You're absolutely right - it's not a great term. In trying to be brief and succinct, I stumbled in using an antiquated term that doesn't accurately sum up the wonderful person my grandma was who, while a single mom, did an enormously good job of raising her three kids. I only meant to allude to a sliver of context about why the family closeness and strong family emphasis of the LDS church was so appealing to and important in my family.
Also read The Quran. It's the only book where yhwh himself speaks directly ! it's the most potent book on the planet because God supported it with science & maths . Prophet Muhammad was the prophet of Deut18:18 , John1:21 , John16:13 ...etc
I enjoyed this first part of the interview. I'm a convert and I didn't have any issues with the church, not a bad experience, I even served a mission. I just wanted answers and could not find them and in the journey I found a lot of information about things I had no idea and that's why I'm out.
Lizzy's story about Urinetown killed me! I was in a singles ward at BYU when that play took place at the Hale Centre Theater in Orem. I went to the play and ran into one of my singles ward bishopric members who I chatted with before the play began. I ran into them at church the next day and went up giggling about how much I LOVED the play. I asked how he liked the play and he responded that they were so offended by it and left at intermission!! I was so glad I didn't volunteer my opinion first!
The Hale Center is absolutely incredible. They were one of my clients for advertising and they are so kind and super cool. The theatre is an amazing production! My husband and I were impressed. I also just loved Lizzy’s story and can totally relate to her in some parts of her story.
That’s very interesting about Eastman School of Music. It reminds me of Linda McCartney and how she was part of Wings. I can still see her in my head playing along for the album Ram. “But we haven’t done a bloody thing all day.”- can’t get it out of my head- LOL!
Though am a NevMo, I grew up in California near Frazier Park. There's a pretty sizable LDS community there and I totally remember the mormon kids going to seminary in the am before school. And I complained about getting up at 5 to be at school at 7! They had seminary at around 5:30 when I was just getting ready!!! So dedicated.
Fabulous episode, found myself joining in the conversation, agreeing, laughing, and debating musicals. (I was out walking the dogs so no one saw me, thank goodness!) 🤣 Looking forward to next bit. Thank you. And YES Tim Minchin wrote Matilda. He's the best comedian I know of. I adore his songs.
There are new music guidelines for LDS services, updated just a few months ago. There is now room for a trombonist to play in church, as long as local leadership approves.
Like as part of the school system? I'm also in NM. We had to go to the church before school to attend our seminary class. At the church at 6:00am every school day... ugh
The phrase “My shelf broke” or “Too many shelf things” is an expression used by LDS who become inactive or remove their name from the Church records.(this is a big deal in LDS culture) Other folks who leave high-demand religions use it too.
I love how Spencer is really engaged while Lizzy speaks--even just looking back at her to maintain connection or nodding along or thinking on things she says. (This is in stark contrast to Rod Osbourne who seemed like he'd rather be anywhere else while his wife Nan told her story...picking his nails and never really looking at her during her story which not to project but I found sad for Nan.)
Finally I love this episode for the Musical Theatre. You forgot Hair, Sweeney Todd, Jekle and Hyde, Hadestown Kinky Boots,( my friend was in Next to Normal and Jersey Boys) and The color Purple.
Aren't community theatres required to perform show AS WRITTEN? I saw 1776, a show I know WELL at a Hale Theater. The substitutions in the script to avoid damns, hells, and GOOD GOD's were just silly.
I did Jane Eyre @ the Glendale Ctr Theatre. 1996/1997. The 1st production. The sons/ brothers were in charge. Nice people. The show was rough. Iam sure there was a bunch of rewriting done when Lizzy did the show.
John with respect you interrupt women so much more than the men you interview just something to be aware of Example: when they were talking about their seminary teachers you said “it doesn’t matter this is high school girl stuff”
So glad you mentioned seminary. As a NeverMo I’ve heard you discuss seminary all the time and I equated it to Catechism, which for Catholics was the church classes you took in middle school leading to your confirmation. But the most my school did was allowed you on Wed to take the after school bus that would drop off at one if the 5 Catholic Churches in town. It was after school and the bus was the only connection. So seminary is hugely different. Was it required? Graded? What about non-LDS kids? Is it taken during a free study hsll period? Is it an elective? How do you get around church and state? Was the seminary teacher a teacher at the school or a called church position? I have so many questions!! Maybe a mini Mormon stories podcast to explain would be of interest. Also I think I saw a documentary of the pageant (Hill Kurmorah?) pageant. I have to go back and look.
Hi there! Happened to see your comment! It wasn’t required but as a Mormon you felt you didn’t have the choice not to take it. With the school system it was treated as an elective - I think technically the school gave you a “Release Time” period (like study hall). The buildings in UT are closely adjacent to the school so you can just walk right over. The church has a rigorous training program for seminary teachers in Utah. It’s often a job church-enthusiastic men aspire to after their missions because it’s like an extension of the mission. Outside of Utah it’s just another calling/job for a local ward member to volunteer for to teach the youth before school. In Utah, there is training program and a salary. It is only as of 2014 that women with children at home (in the past, if you even made it into the program as a lady and became employed, you’d be dismissed once you got pregnant) or people who’ve been divorced (even if happily remarried) are eligible to work as full-time seminary teachers so that kind of speaks to the culture of the thing, and that it’s a little problematic in places.
You don't have to be in person to do the Hosanna shout. I did it for the Nauvoo temple dedication from Utah when I was young. It was broadcast to our stake center and projected on a big screen. Maybe the Nauvoo one was special though because, Nauvoo.
