18 Notes per Second in Chopin's 1st Impromptu??!! 

I posted this comment on an older video on your channel ("How Fast did Mozart and Beethoven Really Play" from 2017) - but wanted to post it here as well since this is about essentially the same topic of interpreting metronome marking speeds . . . As a professor of acoustics (Ph.D. in Acoustics, 1995 and B.Mus. piano performance, 1988) this actually makes a lot of sense to me. A similar confusion of a "doubling" or "halving" of frequency shows up in a lot of old acoustics texts as well. The modern unit for frequency (the number of complete oscillations in one second) is the Hertz (Hz). An oscillation or vibration of 1 Hz means that there is one complete oscillation (one complete back and forth round trip) occurring within in a time of one second. The frequency corresponding to middle C on a modern piano is close to 256 Hz which means that the middle C string undergoes a complete vibration (back and forth, round trip) 256 times each second. However, long before the 1960's when the modern unit of Hertz (Hz) was adopted as the standard unit of frequency there was quite a bit of variation in the units used to describe frequency. In the 19th century, the French tradition referred to frequency as a "vibration single" (v.s.) a method of counting based on a seconds pendulum which ticks once going forward and once returning -- two ticks per second. This is just like a metronome that makes two ticks -- one tick as the bob moves to the right and a second tick as the bob returns to the left. However, the French also used the term "vibration double" (v.d.) -- similar to the counting method use by German and English scientists -- which only counted one tick per second so that 1 v.d. is twice as long as 1 v.s. This shows up on the tuning forks manufactured by Rudolph Koenig in the late 1880's. Koenig's forks were labeled with the "v.s." system, so that his tuning fork for "middle c" was marked 512 v.s. which is the same as 256 v.d. or 256 Hz. So, if you picked up a Koenig tuning fork marked 512, it actually represents a frequency half that value. According to what you discuss your videos, it would appear that Beethoven, Czerny, and Chopin used a similar "vibration single" method of counting that included one tick as the metronome moves right and a second tick as the metronome moves back left -- two ticks for one complete cycle. So, the problem of interpretation is determining whether a metronome marking of one half note = 108 means (a) one half note for each "tick" of the metronome set to 108, interpreting the number as a "vibration double" (one tick per complete cycle) -- which should be ridiculously fast, or (b) one half note for every two ticks of the metronome set to 108, interpreting the number as a "vibration single" (two ticks per complete cycle) which is much more manageable.

I cannae remember where I read this during my "renacimiento" of my technique; however, I do remember reading that the great Chopin lamented that "they" were playing his Polonaises too rapidly. His Op. 53 especially in the "ostinato" section, and his "Military" when played in proper tempo reminds one of a great military march. Remember that the Polonaise is a DANCE, and upon watching this DANCE, it is illogical that any performer (interpreter) should play faster because the poor Polish aristocracy would have been break dancing for crying out loud! We didn't have DJs; we had players. Keeping lots of this stuff in mind helps to recreate traditions that were once upon a time. Another fantastisch video, Wim!

What a great video! So well presented and wonderfully informative!

I love the rooms and places you usually shoot these videos also the lightings and the backgrounds. The considerations about metronomes are interesting and I often neglect just giving an almost subconscious look at the metronome numbers, but I do too consider the speeds and tempos of what might have been in those times and during any major composers time.

Ooh, so interesting!! I'd love to hear you play the fortepiano! I've heard some recordings where Chopin is played with fortepiano, and they have a peculiar, yet pleasant sound in them. Very nice video!!

This is fascinating, as usual, Wim. I'm not going to argue about the change of fashion in piano performance around the middle of the 19th century, but I don't think that had anything to do with Chopin playing relatively few concerts. He didn't play many public concerts when he was younger, either. He really hated it and avoided it as much as possible. In some of his earlier public appearances, when he was around 20 and playing with orchestras, people complained that he played too quietly, and that was discouraging as well. He gave up on his original idea of being a typical traveling virtuoso, and concentrated on teaching and composing. His playing was generally very well received in more intimate settings, and he was much more comfortable that way. He did give a major concert in Paris in 1848, the last one of his life, and that was well attended.

Awesome!!!!!!! Thank you so much for sharing your amazing knowledge! Continuous blessings!💋❤💖💖❤💞💕💓💐💐👏👏

I must thank you a lot for your sensible theory and the back-up you got from the Prop. of acoustics - Dan Russell. It gives assurance to what I have felt (didn't know about - I admit) when performing.

Great video Wim ..nice to see your research into the music ..Thanks .. :)

Fascinating, great video.

The solution is quite simple, just practice 40 hours per day

Nice vid! Man I need to get my hands on some of these editions made by him.

Like to hear the whole thing at 1/2 speed, the fragment sounded nice.

Very interesting!Thanks for this video

Really digging your channel!

Thank you for your work.

I love your videos.

*More than 10,000 views in 3 days! Very good Maestro Wim! Greetings!*

I remember Claudio Arrau played this piece in a moderate tempo with a lot of breathe while Raoul Pugno played it so fast it was a real presto. I tend to agree more with Arrau's tempo for more room to express.

18 notes per second is almost in the audible range of frequencies, properly in the subcontrabass register

Very interesting!

I worked on this one with a teacher sometime ago. I never achieved the 130 bpm tempo, though it wasn't too slow either. This piece is one that needs to move at a quick tempo due to its shape and phrasing. I've heard Claudio Arrau and other play the impromptus and with this one the A and C sections are played quickly while the middle, the B section is taken a bit slower so as to enjoy the trills as if there's a reprieve and then pick up the tempo again for the end.

I'm so glad I've come across your channel...I find your videos very interesting, and I spent much time in my university years (I still do) researching tempo relationships, metronome markings, etc. so I'm very happy to find your wonderful channel. A few thoughts to share: as one who specializes in Bel Canto, from which so much of the musical/melodic gesture of 19th Century romantic pianism stems from, I can tell you that I've noticed quite a few problems when attempting to sing certain songs which have been ascribed metronome markings. For example, there is a Donizetti song I am working on where in one of the episodes there is a marking of Eighth Note = 116 in 6/8 (it is not yet ascertained if this is Donizetti's marking, or the editors). It's entirely too slow to sing it as a single beat, and it loses the arch and direction of the phrase, so adjustments are required...but even within the same episode, the accompaniment figures changed and thus the character of the music and text change...I find that approaching the phrases with flexibility allows for the musical and interpretative gestures to communicate more clearly and with greater ease. Of course, the discussion of 'rubato' is always tricky, however, in the case of Chopin, we know from many sources that his way of performing rubato was quite singular and is expected in his music. Evidently much of that style has been lost through the ages, but an interesting source that provides some indication are the Mazurkas transcribed and set to texts by Pauline Viardot-Garcia, who was a friend of Chopin's. Personally, I think the danger that has developed with metronome markings is the expectation that music should be therefore performed metronomically; I disagree in that there are many examples where a melody or the character of the music is revealed or altered by a slight adjustment in tempo. Bernstein made a fabulous video about this using the opening of the Eroica, and the famous quote of Gluck that a tempo too slow or too fast would alter and lose the character of "Che farò senza Euridice." In this particular instance of the Chopin Impromptu, it seems that a likely solution is that the successive progression of trills could indicate an interpretative broadening of the tempo which would certainly allow for the trills to be executed as indicated by von Bülow while still allowing them room for expression and phrasal direction. So much of what constitutes style and performance practice, alas, never actually appears on the page! All the best to you and thank you for all your wonderful hard work and research!

I love your Clavi! And good to hear about the Pianoforte too!

Thank you for more information about distant relative, Hans.

Wow, I never seen this instrument before!

Your work is so thorough and factually correct, I can't imagine why it's not yet mainstream in the music world. Great minds are so often resisted in history.

Hast du da wirklich eine Orgel zu Hause stehen? Mal wieder ein Genuss dir zuzusehen/zuzuhören. Du bist ein absoluter Vollblutmusiker und so leidenschaftlich dabei. Das ist sehr beeindruckend

Very interesting video!

Very fascinating! Another great post! Could you review Frederik Magle’s piece for organ called “Lament”

very interesting. Well done.

revolutionary.

Sehr interessant!

What are some of the top books you'd recommend to read about the life of Mozart, any favorites? In previous videos you always quote stories and instances in composer lives and I find that fascinating.

Your the best

Hmm. So you think it's more credible that the whole piece would be played so tediously slowly, than that von Bulow expected people to have the musical taste to play trills (in a slower section) with some flexibility?

Interesting indeed! May I ask you what are your thoughts on Bergmuller op 100 crazy M.M marking? Especially if we consider that they are referred to as "Easy Pieces".

18 notes a second? SaCRiLeGiOuS

great video, just a little advice: at 13:02 i would love to see the hands even if its basically just two fingers moving up and down

18 notes per second is insane. That's 18 Hz, almost within the range of human hearing (20 - 20K Hz) as a distinct frequency.

Hello Wim, how are you? I got really interested in your research lately, specifically regarding the tempo and the metronome double beat theory. But I'm still a bit confused, how do you manage to find the correct tempo on a piece that has triple meter? For example the Dotted Whole note = 86, what would be the metronome using the single beat? I can find it easily on double meters but when it comes to third I get confused, anyway, I'm really grateful for your research and it has really helped my playing.

What we learn from Counterpoint is that there is a limit to what the composer can hear in his mind so that the real check is not what fingers can do but what the ear can detect.

Hey there! I've just recently discovered your channel and I love it! I disagree with you in a lot of things, but it's always nice to hear different perspectives as long as they are well thought out. In the specific issue at hand, if you claim pianists at that time were not interested in keeping the musical traditional as much as we are today, why are we taking Hans von Bülow as a reliable source to how Chopin might have wanted his impromptus and more specifically his trills to be played? He was not a student of Chopin directly so why is his opinion so important to you? Furthermore, I would like to note that the "tr" notation for trills, is historically a rather free one. Especially for long trills. Can you imagine someone counting how many notes he's playing during the last pages of the op. 111 of Beethoven? In that particular passage I just want to have a nice soft trill with even sound. Some pianists will achieve that with very fast trills, others with not so fast. The fact the Hans von Bülow think you should fit 16 notes in the trill you are talking about is absolutely irrelevant to me. Most people don't count how many notes they play in a medium/long trill and I'm positive Chopin didn't either. In fact that might vary from performance to performance! Awesome video though!

Today we have an expectation that music such as this will be played with a liberal amount of rubato. (Just listen to Ashkenazy!) Do you think that was part of the style in Chopin's day? If so, how does that effect your interpretation of the metronome marking? Is the number equal to the fastest beats in a measure, or is it the speed the tempo starts at, or is it a sort of average tempo throughout the piece?

Why not a word about Bülow's little note on Cramer's metronome numbers in the preface to the edition?? Could be worth mentioning here the case of Frederic Lamond - he became a Liszt pupil after turning up to Weimar with a letter of recommendation from Hans von Bülow. (we can hear him talking about it himself here on RU-vid) Lamond became particularly famous for playing Beethoven, and made an edition of the Beethoven sonatas; in which he reproduces many of von Bülow's metronome numbers. He also recorded a number of the sonatas on disc... while his tempi are not always precisely concurrent with his edition, they are certainly far from being anything like "half tempo."

I understand - is there a case for playing these trills with increasing rubato to create suspense for the following faster section. For example in the middle section of the 2nd Scherzo, the trills in the final section of the A Flat Polonaise, and many other Chopin middle sections, the Fantasie Impromptu etc ...

(EDITED Comment): Here's a duplicate of commentary I mentioned under another video. This may also help to provide some context as; it mentions an actual recording digitized in 2012 or 2013. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-0OD3ZmD_t5I.html -- Here for you to consider are more clips of 19th Century recordings. By any chance are you able to play either Alfred Grunfeld, and or Frederic Chopin's work at the speed they were meant to be played at? In order to 'hear' properly you will need to CHANGE YOUR VIDEO PLAYBACK SPEED TO 1.75 using the 'wheel' symbol next to the "CC" symbol underneath the video. Chopin's recording was from, 23 January 1890. Grunfeld's recording was from 18 November 1889. Thanks for your consideration. Enjoy.

great video...say Wim what is that metronome app that shows the pulse from left to right when sound turned off please?..saw it in another video

Hi Wim ! Still following you ! What do you think about the chorale section of the 3rd Scherzo ? I've never seen any indications that the arpeggios shoud be played very faster than the chords, but everybody does this. I think that really makes sense, but there's no indication and I'm very curious by that a loooong time !

*no can I*

Looking at the text at 12:00 - the same rules for the ornament for Bach und Chopin? Wasn't there a change? I'm not sure at the moment, but I think there was a time when you played a trill differently? Hmmmm...

Thanks for this fascinating and instructive talk and demonstration! I cannot quite believe that the slower tempo is what Chopin had in mind for the opening section, but the questions you raise, and the information you base them on, raise many important questions, and for that, again, many thanks! I do not have the score handy. However, I just listened to the recording by Raoul Pugno (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-7x4R8jU5zv4.html), and I noticed that he takes a much slower tempo in the middle section of the piece, which contains the measures with the trills you mention. If that section of the piece was traditionally played more slowly than the metronome marking for the opening and closing sections (and Pugno was a pupil of Georges Mathias, who was a pupil of Chopin... though that is not definitive proof of anything), would that not explain some of this apparently impossible tempo for the trills, while leaving the opening at the faster tempo indicated by the metronome marking?

I don't think that the piano hammers can respond that fast, considering that even someone like Conlon Nacarrow had to make his player pianos hydraulic operated in order to play some of the tempos his pieces demanded.

I have a question... At what tempo would you play Etude Op. 10, No. 6?

is there a good english version of well respected annotations for chopins works?

18 Notes /Second. If you can play something slowly, You can play it quickly

In the time of Bülow pianists knew much more about playing rubato, than now. They was not counting every bar with exact metronome. So it needs a little bit of fantasy to imagine, that Bülow was not asking for playing exactly 18 notes per second, but just puted it in a naturally context of rubato playing. BTW Thanks a lot, that you did not try to play the first passage of this impromptu on a organ!

You need more subscribers

Bulow added his own metronome marks to the Beethoven sonatas as well.

I'm sorry but are you seriously trying to argue that Chopin's music is all being played at double speed? How exactly do you account for the fact that nobody noticed, including people who knew Chopin very well and often heard him play? Bülow was born in 1830 and Chopin died in 1849.

I've been doing some researches of my own - having biggest public library in Europe along the road helps! Mendelssohn trios, six movts, are impossible at single beat, sound 2/3 too slow at double beat - inference: were slower. Chopin Pno Conc 1 - likewise 2/3 slower. Beethoven Hammerklavier, certainly not single beat, again rather slow (haha I can play it all now). Beethoven symphonies. In many parts insanely fast as single beat, and double-beat comes over awfully tame (not like anyone would want to hear, Eroica begins and ends with a funeral march!) AND YET - certain parts sound ridiculously slow at double, and sound just right at single (fast) speed, including presto/prestissimos of 9/4 and 7/4. Oh, and the "EU anthem" in 9/4 (bar 92-, bar 240- and bar 535 (with ref to bar 331)) sounds like the Ode to Slugs instead. Maybe Beeth got his maths wrong sometimes. The more one knows the less one is sure of anything.... (Isn't there a quicker way of driving us mad?)

I love your channel but that’s certainly far from impossible, I can play a much more intricate line nearly 3 times that speed on guitar and so can my keyboard player.

Their metronomes where certainly steady but maybe not accurate when it comes to indicating the exact tempo. Same for Czerny.

Do either of your daughters play music? or Do they get tired of dad playing all the time? Would love to see your daughters sometimes play.

can you please help me with non piano music?

Klinkt als Hans van Buurlo

10:10 I think you did a great job on the mazurka, but I'm not sure if your teacher approves. She doesn't look that thrilled.

I am curious how you would play the whole piece at this tempo.

"Ever heard of Hans von Bülow?" Wasn't he involved in some famous murder trial in 1979? - No, wait, that was Claus von Bülow. Nevermind :-) Fred

If I may suggest anyone here to listen to the interpretation of Chopin's Etude n°5 from Opus 25 by Chiu (Can be easily found on the channel of "Ashish Xiangyi Kumar". It really sheds a light on mechanics of this etude. And in my humble opinion, I never truly understood this etude played at a quicker tempo while this interpretation... Well, consider trying it !

I have a hard time believing that the number on notes in the representation of the trill is as relevant as you claim it to be (I think the point is much more to show how the "small notes" are to be played, since beginners might thing they have to play the "main" trill note twice in a row), however on this video we are diving into very interesting topics! The very definition of virtuosity changed in that time (losing its "compositional" component in favor of what used to be a matter of "dilettante", i.e. the playing by the score) and indeed the musical world was split between change and tradition. A lot of performers are unaware of that, and reading quotes of Czerny, Riemann, Wieck etc. about the situation of that time is extremely interesting! Have you read Eigeldinger's book about Chopin's students? (I believe you have because you seem very knowledgeable on this topic) It seems that his interpretation might not necessarily have been as "conservative" as you are implying, given that he reportedly allowed some very "sports-like" students to perform in his place when he was ill (I think one student's name in particular was Gutmann (quoting by memory, not 100% sure)).

10 fingers. 2 in a second per finger

Sorry to say it, but I don't think playing those trills in that tempo as von Bülow notated them is difficult. And that is on a modern piano. To play the whole thing at half speed would be, as you said, all but Allegro assai quasi presto, and I think also the people of that time would've fallen asleep after one minute because it would be tedious. Normally Chopin's fast tempos aren't so strange, it's his slow movements that have weird metronome marks! For example the Nocturne D flat, but also many others.

He looks kinda similar to Tom Cruise lol

Ling ling can play mire than 500 notes per second 😎

18 notes per second in the form of a trill is not even sort of impossible. And did I see a fermata over the trill in the score? Hmmm...

Are you in Germany?

I'm curious, there's a piano right there and yet you use the clavichord for demonstrating Chopin? We love historically informed performances but doesn't playing Chopin on a clavichord defeats that purpose? An Erard or a Pleyel perhaps?

Doesn't matter what Mr. Bulow says or wants? Not possible to play 18 notes a second.Best virtuoso pianist may be able to play 8 notes? Last I remember? A machine could play 9 notes! This was on grand piano! Maybe You put music in computer and able to produce that kind of speed? Not sure if HUMAN could hear it???

I wonder if @Jordan Ruddess watches this channel.

I don't agree with you I think it sounds very good with the shotgun mic.

Long long insurance

please i love you very much , but please help me with my instruments so i can play more historically!

Ling ling insurance

Ling Ling can play 1800 notes per second

He has an organ?

Only very sacrilegious bois play that fast.

how does one achieve 1000 notes per second

Dear Wim, I think you have fallen in love with your idea and this is not good. You disregard and dismiss many things due to confirmation bias, to prove your point. I would look at this with a lot more confidence to common sense. ALLEGRO quasi presto IS fast. I would much more find reasonable that Bulow did not mean his 18 motes literally but he rather gave a general idea how to play this trill. I would also tend to find much more reasonable that those metronome markings are not BPM, or dive into the research of whether all metronomes were counting the same, rather than find an idea that covers some ambiguities but produces unreasonable musical result. If there are studies on the above matters it would be very interesting to present them in your interesting channel!

Hans von Bülow was first chief conductor of the Berlin PO. And, on the dark side, he was one of the first signers of the antisemit's petition.

Why are you playing Chopin on a harpsichord?

As composer, I hate the notes diarrhea! Seriously! How could you dare to come to pleasure the audience with more than 8 notes per second? Music if for the delight the people. Of course, you can hammer the klavier (double sense needed here), but, it's more epic, more substantial and it caves deeper in the player and listener's souls of you try to give them some substance with the sounds you compose. That is why people event better slower movements and in the case with allegro ones, are the fewer notes contained pieces that people can retain. Vivaldi's Spring first movement principal theme is what people can remember, the rest, does need reconstruction with the music sheet or the audio, just for go with one example. Hasse's Parto qual pastorello is a vocal fireworks and acrobats composition full of difficult techniques, but are those less notes sections that makes the work so impressive. Finally, Locatelli's Harmonic Labyrinth concerto is a "demential" demand for a violin average player (Royer's Vertigo for harpsichord) But, even when Locatelli's idea was a self virtuosic composition, he knew he needed a theme with few notes that could bring to the mind the characteristic of his own stamp: good music coupled with virtuoso passages that imprint in people's mind a pleasant entertainment. Sorry for use Baroque examples only, but, come on! Those were the masters of the speed! ;)

I expected that you will play more, than talk. And, I think, most of us noticed that you don’t listen the metronome.

Shred guitarists play 16-18 no problem, how the fuck u cant play it on piano its so much easier to play fast on it

my Englishe are not very good! if i anderstend well Chopin's music is beautifull because modern pianists play too fast! the most stupid thing i ever heard!!

This man tell us a lot of Nonsens!! The Taalsma theotie of the "metric" reading of the M.M. numbers is wrong - there are today millions of evidences. And: What's the sense to le the Metronome beat 132 and than Play 3:2????

I wish some of these classical music composers could of heard Led Zepplin. One reason I never got into classical music is THESE PEOPLE HAD NO RHYTHM. Rhythm is the foundation of all music. You don’t have rhythm you don’t have any foundation. Without a foundation you have nothing. Thank God for Black people and thier contribution to music. If all we had to listen to today was classical I don’t believe I would be the musicologist I am. Most classical seems so pretentious.