1895 Daudeteau Indochina Trials Carbine 

welcome to the french. making up the rules as they go lol

Yes I always appreciate that. I think ive thanked him for that in past too. Facts are miles better when given in both. Or kilometres better.

Nick Thorp 7tx

8/5 Ian. Ian is best Ian

TheyCallMeCorona we have to dig deeper

we have to remember harder

Whiskey is better in every way.😂

And rancid cheese.

@@madrenwillims4391 not with food

Next thing you know he's gonna write a book about this stuff

No modern buracracy was in develops by the Germans in the early XVIII century. Is true as Balzac sad " organization is word of the Empire".

@@giovannifontana1433 Germany is still famous for bureaucracy in every branch of government.

@@giovannifontana1433 ​ @Emily Chb , Hell, if you want go farther back then check out the concept of the Mandarin, the European understanding of the Chinese Imperial Civil Servant and inspiration for bureaucracies of Europe.

Arguably NATO should have adopted a 6.5mm cartridge rather than 5.56. The 5.56 NATO cartridge was adopted in a very unexpected and unplanned way, and was ironically the result of the US insisting on nothing smaller than 30cal, despite overwhelming evidence that a smaller caliber was more effective and practical. With a 6.5mm cartridge however, one could get the ultimate cartridge, one that can be effective in everything from infantry rifles to carbines, SAWs DMRs and sniper rifles. It could be good against armour, flat shooting, minimal recoil and have sufficient size for stopping power and a variety of bullet designs like AP, tracers ect, even explosive rounds might be possible. If they chose 6.5 there would be no need for 7.62 and 5.56. One cartridge could have done both. The other NATO countries wanted something like 6.5 or 6mm but were roundly rejected by the pigheaded US top brass who still thought bigger = better.

From a French Revolutionist here!

Thats the norm for all times. Military has limited budget to equip every soldier with best weapon and the decision making process of switching millions of equipments to next generation is very costly.

bilibiliism - i don't mean to offend,but does bilibiliism mean talking shit about two people at once?

+druisteen , but the Meunier A6 never went into full production (just a thousand) and the Berthier 97-15 was a stopgap weapon.

say no more french wood +armor ,remember henry ..+ long bow's...

My guess is it was soft wood or maybe it was some kind of scrap wood. I don't think too many rifles would penetrate the armor plus 5' of oak or another hard wood. I'd like to see it tested for sure.

Chris Jones I actually did some checking before I posted for penetration into pine .223 16 inches .270 22 inches .50 bmg 32 inches, probably all wrong because it's from the internet. regardless I feel safe to say the rifle in question never penetrated 5 feet of any type of wood other than perhaps balsa or cork. also note the above results are without metal plates or spaces between plates and wood which would impact penetration in a negative way, also they are all spitzer bullets not round nose like the bullet in the video.

Laird Cummings we don't need specs on the armor if it can't penetrate the wood in the first place, which is the assertion I'm making. in fact I've gone so far as to say a .50 bmg won't penetrate 5 feet of pine.

Note that its likely only one sheet of metal armor. It was a breast plate but didnt have a back covering. That was the prevalent style in the more "mobile" combat of the late black powder era as opposed to the fully encased knight.

Tres Magnifique!

that's what she said

Kuddlesworth NA -Ditto for the 6.5x54 M/S, as a generation of hunters attested, including Hemingway and WDM "Karamojo" Bell.......

nonsense, we have plenty of experimental weapons trials going on right now. He has yet to reach the OICW :D and that entire program.

Laird Cummings you're US thing can't be as bad as the German one, at least you have working gear at the end. And no I'm not referring to the G36, whose problems were manly that they bought ammunition not to speck and trying it against the heavy barrel version of the HK416.

Laird Cummings you have a point there. But one question: Do you're sea helicopters rust, because they weren't meant for the Navy and deployment on boats? Ours do, which is just fucking stupid.

Yeah, jag, you're probably right, but don't underestimate man's ability for weirdness. Not to mention, the history that still needs to be taught.

We have more. Our self developed drone isn't allowed to fly, because it violates some well known regulation. Our new transport air plane can't fly for shit and rusts already. The Puma (our new IFV) has for some reason a 5,56mm machine gun (second weapon), instead like all the others one in at least 7.62mm. Our vehicle for special troops can't be armoured. To make our new IFV transportable by plane we have to demount art of it's armour, if the transport planes can fly. Our IFV is also for some reason the most expensive in the world, but it's roof is still leaking. Weapons for our troop transport vehicles aren't their at all. We decided to buy a battle helicopter the Tiger without it's forward machine cannon.

Yeah, what a messy word. Is it Daudéteau o just Daudeteau? Because the second one is just awful to pronounce

Rodrigo Seoane I lt' s Daudetau, which is a mouthful no matter your native language

I wonder if that test was before they switched to a bronze solid?

@@sharonrigs7999 If it's 1895, yes, I think so. The bronze "Balle D" was adopted in 1898, so, at the time of testing, it would have been a jacketed lead bullet I guess.

The Daudeteau use a clip very similar to the Swiss K31 clip. It's not really a stripper clip, but you don't have to put the clip in the mag unlike Mannlicher style clips. You can even load your Daudeteau one by one, like a Mosin Nagant.

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-3ExOcfs2rng.html

Thanks for the link. Very informative

Handled, but not shot.

convictjoe if I remember, he mentionned a long time ago that his background was engeneering...?

C&Rsenal.

I was mistaken in the video; the stock was made new in Indochina using tooling from Berthier stock production.

Thought there were too many and not enough cuts in it. Still interesting that they chose to duplicate or retain the swell when cutting flush would have been much easier to do - inletting the magazine etc.

John J - Look up wildcat cartridges like the 375 Whisper by JD Jones. He has some large low velocity cartridges. Buy Cartridges of the World. Goid reference book and very interesting. U will find all of JD Jones's cartridges in the wildcat section. A subsonic 375 should have mire energy than a 45 ACP, as the bullets are heavier (270-300 grains vs 230 grains) at faster speeds (say 1000 fps vs 850 fps at most). A spitzer bullet can be quite accurate and hold its velocity at good distance. I believe the original 300 Whisper design is effective to 200 meters in specialized military applications with modified suppressed AR-15's. Essentially, elimination of enemy sentries by specops. Ballistics is a fascinating science. It is amazing to see what has been tried or is under development for various purposes. Good luck in your research

I completely forgot about wildcat designs, so that alone is good information. But knowing about a 375 whisper round is going to be really useful for me as well. So thank you.

No Aliens there and then ; only indigenous, but they did test that A LOT.

You are not considering air resistance. The smaller bullet loses less velocity pushing through the air, and thus drops less over a given distance because it travels faster.

I absolutely agree with you, I get that air resistance is a relevant factor; for instance, if I launched a ball bearing vs a microwave oven at the same muzzle velocity that the "flatness" would be significantly different. I just can't believe that the difference between air resistance of an 8mm Lebel vs 6.5mm Daudeteau is significant to a shooter at ranges anticipated without sight adjustment in the 19th Century. The below link shows the difference between firing, an, admittedly very different round, both in air and in a vacuum, and it appears that air resistance isn't as much of a thing as I was raised to believe (but I'm sure that can vary based on particular bullet types) www.wired.com/2009/10/mythbusters-bringing-on-the-physics-bullet-drop/ ***Much love to Forgotten Weapons, I've been watching for a while and love your work*** I'll be signing up tonight via Patreon.

BatCaveOz based on frontal area alone, the 6.5mm round is only 72% of the frontal area f the 7.62mm. Against the 8mm he difference will be even more marked.

Next time I am in Italy, I will definitely arrange one!

THAT'S SO NICE TO HEAR!

Ian, FYI, there's an issue with this upload at Full30.com

Forgotten Weapons Ian, I thought forgotten weapons was demonitized? I've been seeing ads lately.

Moondog66602 those are RU-vid ADS that have nothing to do with channels, like on many other gin related channels

Those were Mauser 71s rebarreled by SFAP for the 6.5mm Daudeteau cartridge. Same designer, and factory, but not the same guns.

@ druisteen yes true. But if you look into it, a wide variety of ammo was used. don't forget Viet ability to reload/make ammunition. Very resourceful. Plus rifles can be re-bored to take a more conventional and readily available ammo calibre. Also you can issue e.g. these rifles and the stock of ammo in one province/smaller area, not need to spread them across the country. There are ways of using resources when you are desperate to defend yourself.

@druisteen...Let me clarify to help you understand my point...the NVA regular army used the Korean Type 58 rifle, Chinese type 56, some AK, AKM etc etc. The US was involved from at least 1955 in the region and faced both regular and non-regular troops. The non-regular VC used whatever they could lay hands on...in some cases and in some places. I Including antiquated rifles which do usually have a substantial amount of ammo per cache. I was not saying they were 'issued' or were common-place but accounts say they existed, especially earlier on. Also home-made weapons made to use the locally available type of ammo...whatever that may have been in that area and that time etc. They got more regimented supplies later on. I have read many accounts/biographies over the whole span of the war and there are many examples of weapons being obtained from the VC, which were not 'AK type' weapons at all. Far from it and many were colonial antiques with obviously rare calibers. Even British weapons and again they would have used .303 for example. And yes I'm talking during the Vietnam war between e.g. 1955-1975. By 1955 that is not the Indochinese war as such, its the interim period and start of the US war. Again, these weapons were often in small caches for local defence. Out of desperation, along with home-made and adapted weapons. You'd be surprised what turns up in wars, especially in non-front line areas, unless you have read into it, then you'll know. Look at Syria recently where WWII German assault rifles turned up, but you may deny that too as they use a rare round and 'everyone uses an AK.'

I think this discussion is getting a bit lost, ami. The whole point was that some Berthiers were in Indochina / Vietnam. That's that. Most armies can lose some weapons one way or another, despite best efforts + iron discipline etc. it is a fact. (Ambush, theft even being sold by squaddies or locals.) Could also be issued to local troops etc in some circumstances and not claimed back. Many factors. Given the pot pourri of weapons used in that region could it be some Berthiers turned up over the decades. That was the point and the question. I'm reckoning its not impossible. It really was just a side note though.

One more thing...I just googled 'Berthier Vietnam' and see a guy who has one as a 'battlefield/pickup, bring back' from Vietnam. Shows that they were available and in use in one form or another. Example here....www.russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28627#p394798 Also here, one used as a Viet sniper rifle and picked up by a Marine in the 1960s. www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=895334

@ Druisteen (yet again!) I have intentionally not mentioned an en-mass issue of Berthiers. I don't believe it was remotely possible. I have clearly asked if ad-hoc caches of Berthiers turned up and were used in an ad-hoc way by ad-hoc units. (I have since added proof that they did.) You are adding words ('used massively') to validate your own view and try and win a totally pointless argument. 1. You keep missing my point (intentionally?) and 2. I would rather not argue with you sir! Let us bring this quarrel to an end, shall we! :)

BatCaveOz - It was probably packed wood chips or filler of some kind (maybe even sawdust?) used as a backstop. I very much doubt it was solid wokd of any sort. Not unlike cloth filled boxes and similar things that people put behind blocks of ballistic gelatin today. Pretty impressive to punch both sides of the armor and keep going. Might tumble through a body too

Absolutely agree. Methinks this might be some optomistic marketing from the good folks at Daudeteau ;)

People at that time didnt understand (at least not everyone were persuaded yet) the advantage of smaller cartridges. Consider the size of lead muskets were in the previous era, they were already doing a good job of downsizing though.

Briseur De Lance the 5.56 still brings plenty to the table in terms of its advantages. It is a lighter cartridge allowing for more ammo to be carried, it doesn’t recoil hard at all making it easier to shoot accurately, and it can be pushed past its practical effective range. A hit from a 5.56 within its effective range can prove just as lethal as any 7.62 round. The 7.62 is obviously going to be preferable in a sniper/marksman role due to it being a larger bullet and cartridge. That’s the problem though, there is no one do-it-all cartridge. Hence, why you see virtually every country employ a intermediate caliber assault rifle and a full power rifle round chambered in a marksman rifle. Also, you do see the occasional 5.56 marksman rifle like the Mk.12, S-DMR, and M38.

You should do some searching and find it and send me photos :)

It was originally a Hotchkiss factory building, located at 134 rue de Paris.

I'll look it up and send you some pics if the old building's still there. Keep up the dope work anyway !

Cause we're eating snails.

the french are already a bit arrogant, dont wanna feed their egos too much

Thaddeus Howe The way the magazine works the rifle becomes front heavy and the cartridges have to be designed so the tip of the bullet doesn't bump into the primer of the round in front of it.

^This. Chain detonations were a thing for rifles with bullets sitting tip to primer which could potentially blow the gun up in the user's hands.

Hence they choosed a stange name to make the difference: 6.5x53.5 mm.

Yes, but I don't have one of them. It was a spike like the Lebel bayonet.

yes Indeed but he got it