2022 - Non-Euclidean Doom: what happens to a game when pi is not 3.14159… 

I would've left out the +1 though You die, the game dies as well 🤣

Sadly, PI is a const and cannot be changed during runtime. But yeah, that would be hilarious.

​@@markbloom7434 nothing stops you from defining PI as a variable

​@@yusuf_kizilkaya The lookup tables do. Granted, it's simple enough to precompute them for all health values.

​@@yusuf_kizilkayayou'd have to constantly recalculate lookup tables tho

More acceptable than whatever the fuck EA is doing

In general, it depends what level of accuracy and precision you need. The smaller the circle, the larger the difference.

@@AnnieC.1993 A dumpster fire is more acceptable

@@AnnieC.1993 "pi = 3 polygons"

Or just use lots of triangles instead. Honestly i can't really think for what you would need pi, other then round objects. Is there some magic optimization somewhere needing PI?

heh normalize... you're funny.

I read pi is on a spectrum

@@NoahtheEpicGuy Heh heh shut up

DOOM (Engineer Edition)

Let's normalise being a 30 year old virgin

DooMT

@@SonOfMeme KetaDoom

@@martybyrnemusic nah you ruined it

ShrooM

​@@martybyrnemusic you don't understand how drugs work. At least, not ketamine. This is not how it feels to be in a k-hole. A K-Hole is weird, it's like you can't remember how you even got there, like that scene at the cafe in Inception where Di Caprio explains that you never remember the start of a dream, you never remember how you arrived there. The main thing about being in a k-hole is that everything kinda starts feeling like you're in a world of bubble wrap, or that everything in the world is pixelated. But it's less that you're seeing the world like that and more like you're _FEELING_ it. Time itself stops being one smooth movement and instead becomes very jittery and only progresses in distinct pixelated chunks like that too. It becomes next to impossible to move, because every step feels like it takes an absolutely monumental amount of time to happen, and you feel so shaky and your legs weak that you don't wanna risk moving anyway and so if you do, then it'll be on your hands and knees crawling so that you don't fall over. And sound becomes pixelated too, if that makes sense. It probably doesn't make sense, unless you've been in a k-hole before. You know like when you put your face up to a fan and start humming into it and it makes it sound weird? It's like that. Except you're the only person who can hear sound in that way, other people just hear you sounding normal. It's nothing like non-euclidean Doom.

And always get saved by sufficiently high safety factors

pi ≈ 1. it has the right number of digits

As a physicist I hate that I love this

Found the astronomer ​@@keiyakins

2=e=3=pi=sqrt(g)

π = John Carmack

This sounds like a line from The Simpsons

of course the circles are wrong if they're coming up against supergenious alien in person suit John Carmack

psychic supersoldier prototype and brazilian jiu jitsu practitioner john carmack?

@@seltzer666 The same John Carmack who used chemlab thermite to break into his school so he could play with the school's Apple ][s.

you should have two lobotomies, not only one.

???

@@xanderplayz3446sorry, let me explain it for you. It’s them trying to play doom after the lobotomy

Me trying to understand words after the lobotomy

#relatable

That's excellent thinking! 😊

I just downloaded MAME and minecraft on the main shared folder no f given

We did a similar thing in Highschool, except we renamed the to NoCD Counterstrike .zip to a random file/path on the public share (also usually in some other class shares), and saved the location to a non-descript file. Once everyone had a local copy, run the batch, and move it for the next group. He mustn't have been very good sysadmin, because there was always a copy of CS on the server somewhere, I would have looked for the file size, as it was the same copy that we originally got caught with. I like your method better tho.

@@arjovenzia There was some back and forth before we arrived at the scattered parts method.

That's great

what

@@asuka_the_void_witch What what?

The Man in Black

Very cool! But according to the Doom wiki, the guy was hired by Carmack for Quake 2. And he was the lead programmer there. And the man left id in 2000 and later worked on World of Warcraft at Blizzard. Talented guy. Worked as a software engineer and the passion for games led him to Carmack himself to get an offer to fix the bug in the code, all of which shaped his career in game development for years, lol

@@KeksimusMaximus The starting at Quake 2 quote is definitely wrong: John started well before the original quake architecture had settled down, something which caused a lot of issues when Carmack's very frequent rewrites caused Cash's bot code to stop working.

"can doom load run doom?"

DoomOS

That was indeed very cool.

@@landspide I'm fairly certain I've seen that. But maybe I'm just remembering that time someone (technically) got it running in Minecraft via redstone.

@@JoshWinibergnew linux distro idea. based on arch to further solidify the meme value

The "it doesn't compile" part is interesting, because calculating the LUTs is a build step and the program that does it crashes. And the segfaults happen because it tries to look up a value for an angle that's not in the table, I assume

Yeah, I figured it would throw a divide by zero error or, because of the lookup table, an indexing error.

@@Serenity_Dee As strange as PI is, it has to bow its head to zero, which must be the strangest number of all!!

Damn, that actually sounds really dope. Throw in some palette magic and maybe even texture shifting, sprite scaling or sound pitching as well while you're at it :D

or use dynamic tables that changes the value of pi to something between 2.5 and 3.3 every x seconds

​@@thehellriddenBaron I saw this suggestion (linking pi to your health) in another comment and got nerd sniped by it. Long story short, I uploaded a video to my channel of me attempting to play nightmare with this change, and it's very cursed. In fact that's the title of the video. "Doom E1M1 Nightmare Difficulty but it's cursed". I also included the git diff in a gitlab snippet which is linked in the description. It would probably be more balanced being normalized to a range other than 1-100. Right now it's clamped to 1 so dying doesn't crash the game, but by the time you're below 50 health, you've already lost because basic navigation becomes impossible. Like, I'm in E1M2 right now and I'm stuck in the east stair wing because I can't turn around to get to the door.

​@@BradenBestWoooow that's awesome!

@@BradenBest real one

probably will look normal to him and he will doubt acid kicked in

"these tabs were bunk, man. you got burned"

“Pi is equal to exactly three!!!”

@@dave7922 not in Indiana, it's legally four by state law

it's yeah, pretty yeah, a little... yeah

"so now it starts to just be yeah it's uh it's yeah um a little yeah pretty pretty hard"

​@@SkilledTadpole Boioioioioioing🍆

"I bet he's thinking about that hottie in front of us" Him:

​@@zelda_smilenothing hotter than my fridge running doom

ahhh fascinating

Things are a little off, the walls move in a way that you don't expect, amd things start to shift 🤣🤣🤣

Movies trying to show how a trip looks: *pink floating elephants everywhere* Actually how a trip looks like: *Doom with Pi=e*

Shrooms will eat a slice of your pi

Shrooms hit in a nearby forrest once and I wanted to walk home as the mosquitos bugged me... normally a 15 min walk now felt like walking around in a maze. Everything further away than the tips of my shoes didn't make sense anymore... everything I focused on in front of me became an individual and isolated piece/snapshot of reality suspended in a void as if my brain lost the ability to "glue" the pieces together and turn everything in a coherent reality, which made navigating very challenging. A weak mind would've probably freaked out, I thought it was as interesting as it was annoying. The interesting part was having a direct experience on how bits and pieces of smaller realities become a coherent big reality.

kinda accurate actually huh

I am also sure ist Not an real non euclidea geometry. You need tensor calculations. Objects are warped and don't disappear

​@@stefanhoffmann5281but the objects are 2D. Either visible or non visible.

@@RKroese nope : read Riemann

@@stefanhoffmann5281 read riemann what exactly? any specific theorems/results you could point to?

@@stefanhoffmann5281 If it breaks the rules of euclidean geometry, then that is not euclidean geometry. non-euclidean. it's not specifying what it is, just what it isn't.

90s were a period of rapid technological breakthroughs, a game would look completely outdated after just a few years. Quake came out in 1996, and it had a fully 3D graphics engine with free look. At that point, a game like Doom had no market value.

@vytah indeed, indeed. It's such a trip seeing how quite much has changed in the intervening years. Such a shame we don't live in the timeline where this is still the norm (opensourcing older games, that is).

1993 actually. Doom released in December 1993 and became source code was released in December 1997. So just 4 years.

It's not the actual game (as in levels, graphics, sounds etc) that was made free, just the engine source code - unless you were going to pirate Doom then you would have been expected to pay for it

The Doom's distribution was initially a shareware. Meaning the Game Engine was free to share and use but not the contents of the game itself (maps, graphics, sounds...). Elite had just released the source code of the game engine, by doing this, the game is technically playable and saleable on everything.

Asteroids was always intended as a map-screen Easter egg, though?

Omg Carmack is Cthulu

Nah, it's just because Lovecraft was really afraid of brown people and of the Hindu gods being real.

I thought about this too. Why didn't he put this in his talk??

And why would it segfault to begin with?!

Theres probably a bounding limit on the functions used , maybe they limited the domaine of definition to - pi to pi. And since the real pi is smaller by the the pi coded it works. Idk tho just a hypothesis

Maybe, but then that would require the function to have the correct definition of PI as well. More probably the maths result in a runtime error (division by zero or other illegal operation) at some value greater than pi. It's also worth noting that carmack's wrong pi is technically larger than pi, by 0.0000000003 but still it *is* larger, so the precise cutoff would be interesting (and the effects thereof likely subtle since 4 crashes) Anyway, it'd be trivial enough to test this myself but I don't actually care enough to do that. I just wish it was covered in the talk is all. Hell, given a few minutes I could work through the code and figure out why it crashes too but again: not worth the effort.

More interesting questions than does it play at -1000000. The talk had the bones of a good concept but not properly explored.

This sounds like motion sickness: the game

Check out Hyperbolica.

It's been around for a while and wobbling your head changes direction. Motion Sickness: The Game it is!

This exists! It is called "Redirected Walking" in research papers, see Nilsson et al, IEEE 2015

Check out Hyperbolica! It's a VR game with noneuclidean spaces -- the main hub area has 5 squares to a corner so it has more space per space

On your fingers you do arithmetic, not math.

@@Skeletons_Riding_Ostriches I don't know the difference :D

Except Doom came out before PS1, which makes it look even more impressive that it needs a downgrade to look like PS1 haha

ShroomDoom

yeah I really wanted to see a rocket

BFG-9000!

@@makipri I could be wrong but given that the only examples shown on his slides of the Doom splash-screen are those from the shareware doom1.wad, I think that's what he was using in this demonstration. If so, Plasma Rifle and BFG are unavailable even with cheats; the only non-hitscan weapon he could have shown was the Rocket Launcher.

​@@ph0endTechnically enemies like imps fire non hitscan projectiles.

Heheh, imagine non-Euclidean geometry causing Musk's spaceships to explode...

Yesn't

so you're telling me that making a euclidian world work in a way that breaks the euclidian part of it doesn't make it non-euclidian?

@@troyjohnson2137 It isn't breaking anything. It's just changing the formula. If you swap 2 + 3 = 5 for 2.1 + 3 = 5.1 you haven't broken anything.

@@nowonmetube😂

Doesn't the change to pi make movement of the character non-euclidian? Well technically, the character doesn't move, the world moves around the character, but it does so relative to the player, so it is in essence a circle around the character. So by changing the value of pi, that circle now has a curvature stronger or weaker than it should have. Which makes it non-euclidian, yes?

but will it run Doom?

to run Doom on Doom

@@abcpea someone did port doom to the pico-8, so it might be possible :3

​@@champagnesupernova1839It could be, which makes it even more interesting

That would be so sick!

@@philipegoulet448 you could even make it so it wouldn't update if you didn't move location, so that you had a *chance* at gaining a bearing.

I wish I could understand why anyone would think this. I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a software engineer and still can't see how I would find this entertaining or even mildly interesting? If you can explain it, I'm curious?

​@cichlisuite2 I randomly came across this. I have no idea about code or developing, neither am I good at maths. I clicked it out of pure curiosity expecting the game to look trippy with changed pi values, and it did. That was neat :) Hence me liking this.

@@nickkohlmann Thanks for the explanation. I also randomly came across it and watched hoping it might show something interesting. It wasn't that trippy to my eyes and the presentation style was about as drab as it could be. But good to know that for some the visuals alone were enough to generate enjoyment. I thought maybe you might have to understand coding or game mechanics.

@@cichlisuite2 You never think "what would the universe look lik e if the constants are different?" or "what would it be like to live in a two dimensional world?" If you would like to explore the second question, go read the book Flatland by A. Square.

same here. he had a whole gradient over numbers lower than pi, and none noticeably greater than pi

If the lookup table for tangents had 4096 slots, then it's probably π + (π / 4096) or something like that, which causes an additional value in the table to become infinity or switch sign.

​@@seriouscat2231what if you manually fix those values or set maximum for them to see how it runs?

As a mechanical engineer this really fucks with my audio engineering sensibilities, won't this in-person conference speaker think of the RU-vid sound quality?!

@@arenomusic can easily be done in post quickly before an upload. fuck, id do it for free

@@ZeMovinPixxle Wasn't watching with headphones but I get what you mean 😂 It's part of the IMMERSION

@@arenomusic i work events sometimes and we always put a highpass on every microphone.

It's for artistic effect

Or calculate them instead of looking up, if you're going to be updating the lookup tables anyway the performance boost from using lookup tables is gone. That way you can put powerups in the map that change all sorts of constants.

It may well be that without DOOM, DirectX would have come later. DOOM exploded onto the scene and everyone wanted a part of it. It dod something that most would have thought was impossible on the hardware of those days. Its impact on gaming cannot be overestimated.

Yes. There is a saying in computing that with enough memory, one does not need compute. Or caching is king, baby!

I thought it was unenthusiastic wooing

I don't think it would "not compile" for any other value than 0