If we keep spamming them on every page hopefully we can get an errata to the Divine Smite & Hunter's Mark spells. It's much easier to do that then changing entire features, so maybe there's a chance.
Technically we don't know that yet since we don't know what the new hunter's mark does. Maybe it can be upcast for higher damage. BUT if this is true, then why wasn't this mentioned in the interview?? Very sus!
If some of the key Ranger spells have concentration taken away, like the Paladin's smite spells have, then it will make Hunter's Mark feel *a little bit* less bad. Still not a good route to go, though.
As someone playing a Drakewarden Ranger: I did not take Hunter's Mark. I did not *want* Hunter's Mark. Trading in my subclass, the thing I built my entire character and backstory around, for 3.5 damage per hit is just....awful. In fact, regardless of how much damage it *did* do (The capstone basically says to do 2 extra damage.....my God that's horrifically bad), I wouldn't want to use it over ordering my dragon. Because the dragon is, at least to me, way more flavorful and fun to use than just roll one more d6. New Ranger is overall better, but now I'm ignoring the class for the subclass. *Such* a shame.
I don't even know if its necessarily better - after 5th level, using HM is a damage loss always. Favored Foe basically gives you all the damage hunter's mark would've and then you can skip taking it. Any time you could cast it, you could cast Entangle or Spike Growth instead, increasing your crit odds for multiple enemies and dramatically increasing damage
I played a Horizon Walker Ranger and I did the same as you. I despise Hunter's Mark. I never choose it as a spell and never will, it's just bad and don't go well with the rest of the ranger. This changes to make Hunter's Mark the central piece of the Ranger are a mistake.
This version of the ranger is exactly what they strayed away from with the warlock. The warlock memes with eldritch blast will now be ranger memes with hunter's mark...
@@AnaseSkyrider you forgot 5th level. The one every warlock can at least reach.. but yeah, you're right. The worst part is the fact hunters mark only scales up in damage as their CAPSTONE...
I feel like two tiny things they could’ve done could’ve fixed a lot- • Hunter’s Mark steadily scales like Monk die • Hunter’s Mark is no longer a concentration spell and is more of an exclusive class feature that you can spend slots on. A barb or concentration caster would be nice with the mark. If this requires a second spell level mark or the free marks are at higher ranger level to strip away the concentration effect, that’s fine. Not a fan of the power dip. Though if the Mark is a class feature now, it’s be nice to have different kinds of Hunter’s Mark, like how there are different smite types. Give debuffs and elements there. Kinda hate how many features default to force, radiant, necrotic, or psychic now
Per JCraw Hunters Mark is still a concentration spell. I'd love for him to have made a major mistake because Hunters Mark being a concentration spell is 90% of why it's a bad feature.
Smite was a feature that you could spend slots on and they changed it to a spell. Doing the opposite to Hunter's Mark would go against their design philosophy. You can argue pretty convincingly that it is bad design philosophy but it is consistent.
Even if Hunter's mark scales like monk's unarmed strikes does, it will still lock you out of your features if you decide to concentrate on anything else.
This is the first time I think WotC have really dropped the ball in the new PHB. Trying to force you to rely on a lvl 1 concentration spell is just so frustrating. And power wise the capstone is just so so sad (and boring). Either you skip hunters mark and lose out on several class feature. Or you use it and skip out on a bunch of more interesting concentration spells. A true lose lose and a huge fail on WoTC. I'm honestly baffled how they ended up thinking this would be a good idea and especially the capstone.
Obviously if a Ranger doesn't want to rely on Hunter's Mark, they need to multi-class at level 13 into Fighter, Druid, or Cleric. Maybe even Monk, if that has been improved. There just doesn't to b a good reason to stay in Ranger after level 12 if Hunter's Mark is not the play style one wants.
@@vortigern7021 To be honest that was true of the old Ranger as well. I was assuming Gloomstalker, which I would keep until at least 11, and then might as well pick up a ASI. Maybe 13 to pick up Improved Invisibility, but even then likely not.
They had so many ways to deal with Hunter's Mark, and they still chose to drop the ball. - Rebalance the HM spell without concentration (probably less damage, improved tracking abilities) - Remove HM spell and just make into a class feature - A Smite Spells time of table where the other bonus action concentration spells can essentially share concentration.
@@AhglockMake it 1 minute, but let you choose to expend a spell slot any time it's active to increase the duration to its normal duration. Tracking a fleeing creature becomes a spell slot tax of approximately once per campaign, I think nobody would mind.
I think the issue is that they compare HM to Sneak Attack, in that it is a damage booster that was initially situational (Advantage for SA, Concentration and spell slot use for HM), but with the evolution of the combat mechanics and the Rogue, getting their required conditions to use their damage booster became trivial, whereas because Hunter's Mark remained a spell that still required concentration and could be dispelled/counterspelled (sharing the same issue with Paladin's smite in that last regard) it fell off. And by making several abilities entirely reliant on HM being up and active, it made all their other abilities have a single point of weakness. I have no idea why they are so reluctant to move HM from spell to class ability similar to Sneak Attack, and in the same boat in terms of balancing difficulty with other spell/signature abilities like Holy Smite and Eldritch Blast. Make it a class ability, remove the concentration need, then hang the kickers and riders off of it - maybe in a similar fashion to Cunning Strikes (making a trade of damage for effect) or the new Barbarian strike effects. You could then make removing the exchange of damage for effect either a high level Hunter-only ability or a high-level base ability of the class. Then you can leave HM as a spell for non-rangers to use, similar to how Holy Smite can remain as a spell for non-paladins; AND the fact that only the Ranger gets bonuses from its use it's preserving uniqueness. In 4e the Ranger also had the ability to sometimes add multiple creatures to their HM effects. This could be a great ability for the anti-Horde type Ranger.
You could go further with it. Give rangers invocation style abilities that'd let them customize their hunters mark. Something like being able to deal additional damaga against undead, or something that'd improve your tracking ability by letting them use hunters mark on a creature if they see their footprints, etc. Yk cool abilities that'd let you customize your character in interesting ways
Yeah, Hunters Mark is like being forced into a Warlock hex. Should have been part of Hunter subclass instead. Wanted different kinds of attacks we can do with a bow. A design problem is the Ranger is the best solo class that can do the most things well, which doesn't fit a D&D party design.
This ranger is literally one of the versions of Warlock we saw in the UA. Which they promptly changed because the feedback all round was that tying the warlock class to hex was a bad idea. No clue why they listened to that, but went and doubled down with it for the ranger.
While Nature's Veil did a buff in duration, it was also moved from 10th level to 14th. PB times per long rest now seems to be reserved for the abilities of species, but class features are a stat's modifier. I definitely get that for multiclassing purposes, this was necessary, but now certain classes are much more MAD. Ranger's beast companion got boosted by the ranger's PB, now it's just Wisdom. This means that unless the ranger is maxing out the Wisdom modifier all the way to 19th to make the Wis 22, the companion is going to be weaker than Tasha's. Also, Tasha's gave Primal Awareness which gave bonus casting of spells. That and Primeval Awareness have both been removed.
Even though I'm not super invested in the new edition I really enjoy this series and watch each video at least twice! Thanks for the great content! As for the Ranger, I kinda feel like it's lost its bearing thematically. Traditionally the Ranger was just straight up Aragorn, basically a fighter but with Really Good At Everything And Doesn't Even Try kind of energy. However as D&D became its own genre and less reliant on tropes from classic fantasy, I feel like the "point" of the ranger has become muddled if not completely lost. So, with this disconnection from the core fantasy, Wizards has to find a more mechanical niche for the Ranger to fill. I feel like they tried here but just made Hunter's Mark its entire personality 😆 I would personally love to see the Ranger building more on its capacity for support and control!
What I don't understand is why not concentration free hunter's mark at level 13. At level 11 Paladin's get +1d8 on all attack, no resource use or concentration. By 13 Ranger's (if Hunter's Mark is going to be the whole class) should get concentration free, apply when making an attack, and use a d8. By level 20 it should be d10 + Wis mod in bonus damage. Why does WOTC hate Rangers?
I should point out that I like Hunter's Mark, at lower levels it is a decent spell. There are just better concentration spells at higher levels. Protected concentration at level 13 doesn't matter if one has stopped using the spell. Unless it has been redesigned it just doesn't hold up in late play. I likely would return to Hunter's Mark at 17, consistent advantage is good, but 10-16 I would not.
For the beastmaster sake i hope the HM in the new phb isn't as heavily reliant on BA or you can still spend one of your attacks to make your pet attack because otherwise you have to juggle around HM and controlling your pet. Effectively being in the dilemma on weather you want to have a class or a subclass which you already would have to at lvl 3 and 4 if HM require you to use your bonus action.
@orandor6249 Granted I haven't played a beastmaster but I played the wildfire druid, artillerist and battlesmith artificer and the drakewarden ranger. While I can see it thematically feeling bad power wise I think it is fair for getting an extra capable body on the battlefield that allows you for the at most the price of a 1st lvl spellslot you get to be 2 places at once and have a ton of extra hit points. Like the damage your pet takes is damage that ultimately isn't going to matter because you can just get it back at full hp. Granted this could be different since the pet classes I played the most is close to unkillable because those where the wildfire and drakewarden and they just require an action to return and bring stuff like teleportation on demand or free damage you can crit fish with everyone on your team that does weapon damage
I feel like the force on hunter's mark is the issue I have with the new Paladin smite. They say they limit it so you can use your spell slots for your actual spells but then one of the subclasses gives extra AC to all your allies whenever you do smite. =T Like that sounds great but now it makes it even harder to justify saving spell slots for spells..
The fact that I’ve seen dozens of simple, hombrew solutions, since the Ranger vid dropped, makes me question Crawford and team’s competence. He keeps using the terms ‘brand new’ and ‘satisfied’… Hunters Mark has always had issues, and they didn’t address any of those issues. Isn’t this the perfect opportunity to look at those problem points; like Hunters Mark and Hex stacking… **and get creative**?!?! Instead they just doubled down. WTF?
I totally agree with you. I really love class synergy, but it feels like you're tied into one style of play with HM. I think either not requiring concentration or making it a feature that just lets you mark an enemy as prey (for maybe a 1d6, that scales) then allow HM to stack on top of that. But even if we homebrew that we lose out on several other class features.. I get where they were trying to go. Let's just hope the buff to the spells make this class a little better. Would love to see less concentrations spells for the ranger, if they want to keep HM working the way it does.
Yeah that’s the thing. It’s printed now so even addressing HM at your table doesn’t deal with the other features unless you plan to re write the whole class lol. I do hope the other spell buffs come in clutch for Ranger though… they deserve it
I strongly suggest you look into how the Ranger was implemented in PF2e. They give you an action called Hunt Prey (you have 3 actions per turn). It marks a target as your Prey basically indefinitely. The base action does some stuff, then your subclass (called your Hunter's Edge) adds more on top. At its base, it gives you a +2 to checks to Seek and Track your prey, basically the same thing as Hunter's Mark. PF2e has granular range increments, where each increment adds a stacking -2 to hit; attacking your prey ignores the first increment penalty, but doesn't increase your maximum range. For context, a Shortbow has a range increment of 60 feet in the system. Then for your Edge, you pick one and get more benefits against your Prey. - Flurry: PF2e has accuracy penalties for spending all 3 actions attacking, this reduces those penalties against your Prey by A LOT, and it only gets better. - Precision: you get 1/turn +1d8 precision damage against your Prey (precision damage is basically just weapon damage, unless a creature doesn't have like any vital organs to speak of) - Outwit (the weakest one): You get a bunch of extra bonuses to skill checks against your Prey, and also an AC bonus against them.
That's my biggest criticism, you are essentially being forced into HM. I played three rangers, all beastmasters, in the past decade. The first was a dex based HM build. The second was wis based, which focused entirely on cc like entangle and spike growth. My current character is a STRanger who uses summon beast and conjure animals. Now I have only one correct way to play my ranger... how exciting....
We don't know if Hunter's Mark scales in the spell description or can be upcast for increased damage. But if it can, why didn't Jeremy Crawford mention that in the interview? We also don't know if Hunter's Mark gives Advantage on Survival and perception checks, which is needed to bring the Ranger up to the level of Barb's Primal Knowledge. If you want the Ranger to be a spellcaster than you need to design incentives to cast spells other than hunter's mark. And being forced to use hunter's mark just to have access to 4 of your class features is a very BAD design choice. Those 4 HM features almost force you into not using other spells.. And if the baddies silence or counterspell you, or dispel magic on your target, you lose the ability to use 4 features of your class until you recast. /facepalm
There was a line of dialogue from the video WOTC release where in Crawford says that “the Rangers spell list has more utility than outright damage”. This makes me think that they are planning to have the Ranger designed with very few damage dealing spells, And the rest of their kit will be spells that enable exploration or infiltration. To that end hunters Mark may be the only/most powerful DPS option for the Ranger in 2024, and that it won’t be such a stretch to assume that at level 20 a ranger would rely heavily on it in combat. Lets also not forget that other classes were reduced in DPS to bring them in line with other classes such as the paladin smites, which the new design implies that it will also require concentration and they will not be able to concentrate on smite and something else.
Favored Enemy should be that only a Ranger can concentrate on Hunter's Mark and one more concentration spell but you stiil have to make con save for both spell when being hitted.
The fix I mentioned on Nerd Immersion's stream turned out to be very similar to how it was in 4e (5e is my first edition). Basically, have Hunter's Mark as a Feature instead of a Spell, and design it around Sneak Attack with a scaling dice pool, but less dice, every attack or round against the Marked creature. My first playtest would use 1d6 at level 1 and add a d6 at the same levels as Cantrips upgrade and then modify from there by increasing dice size or number.
That's definitely the best way to have it, but unfortunately, that wasn't going to work given the way the 2024 PHB works, as Hunter’s Mark was already a 1st Rank Spell, so they can't really change it to be a Feature easily. Thus, what we have coming in 2024 is the best we can get in 5e given the circumstances, except for maybe losing Concentration, but I understand them not giving that to stop Multiclass abuse, especially since it seems like several Ranger Spells will get changed to not use Concentration, notably several previously ignored Spells in Hail of Thorns and Lightning Arrow, so that issue will actually be lessened. Plus, many of the Spells Hunter’s Mark can't function with are ones that are actually kinda fair to not stack with since they're similarly adding Damage over multiple turns at their base, but have different utilities like Ensnaring Strike, Summon Beast, etc.
@@halozoo2436 They could just call the Feature something other than Hunter's Mark (such as Hunter's Prey or Hunter's Quarry), since it would function differently enough from the spell, making it possible to stack with the spell, but there's probably still better things to Concentrate on considering how weak it is. We could even remove the tracking component that's in the spell to completely differentiate it from the Feature. From what I've gathered over a few reviews from various channels is that even if we did let it stack with the way it is currently, it would still be weaker or barely on par with other damage boost classes who otherwise can do the same thing but better than the Ranger (primary example I've seen is the Paladin feature that lets you add Radiant damage to any attack with no requirements. IIRC, I think it was 1d8 bonus for the initial feature, and it's upgraded to 2d8 a little later, which is way better scaling than 1d10 which nets you an average of only 2 more damage per attack, and only at level 20 as a capstone feature. Letting it be able to stack wouldn't really break the game at the levels it is applicable. So basically, the solution is to either fix Hunter's Mark so that it's competitive, or leave it as is and make a broad damage boost as a feature to contrast the damage spike classes of Rogue and Paladin.
@@EitherProductions The issue is that no matter what, Hunter’s Mark already exists, so with D&D 2024 being backwards compatible, whatever is made next has to account for that Spell exiting, which is why Favored Foe in Tasha’s failed to properly fix the problems since it couldn't be allowed to stack with Hunter’s Mark, and why this new version of Ranger using Hunter’s Mark is about the best we could possibly get until a 6e comes along and can remedy their original mistake with Ranger in 2024.
@@halozoo2436 None of what I've provided conflicts with that statement/slash goal. The Hunter's Mark spell would still exist. It would be stackable with the Feature (which would not break the game) because the current Hunter's Mark is weak. WotC has been fixing other spells while keeping the name (the healing spells being 2x buffed as an obvious example), and that is exactly what I put forth as the alternative option. Either make a Feature unique to Rangers that adds damage to a single target until it's down that can stack with Hunter's Mark to make it viable, or fix the Hunter's Mark spell to be competitive and deserving of costing a spell slot while keeping the name so that it's "backwards compatible." I've been keeping that restriction in mind the entire time.
@@EitherProductions But stacking with Hunter’s Mark is actually a problem, they don't want too many lingering Spell effects going around, and stacking 2 different target selection Spells is definitely going to be a bit clunky and not something they'd ever want anyway since it would push Damage consistency way too high on Ranger with all those bonus dice. Giving Ranger Hunter’s Mark for free is the best solution to the problem until a new edition comes, as it frees up your Spell Slots and Spells Known to give you the target focus Feature that should've been there from the start. Plus, with the implied changes to Hail of Thorns and Lightning Arrow, it looks like Hunter’s Mark is going to be more viable than ever before as they'll no longer require Concentration and actually be usable, especially early on.
My main issues is how they could _AT LEAST_ mesh using _Hunter's Mark_ with the Beast Master commanding its Beast. You either use your Bonus Action to command the beast to attack or you just cast Hunter's Mark. Say you cast _Hunter's Mark,_ what's the beast doing in the meantime? It's not even doing the Help Action autonomously! I don't understand why it isn't combined. Casting _Hunter's Mark_ on a creature should be the same as saying "Sic 'em, boy!" to your beast! Like, even if they have to be careful about the damage, it could start out just giving the Help action and then grow into attacks. It wouldn't be ideal, but it's not nothing and the beast isn't just sitting there chewing on its own butt while everybody else fights for their lives.
The beast should be able to act freely imo. It makes no sense that a killing machine will have to sit and wait for you to tell them what to do every single turn. It’s not a pet or a familiar. It should reflect the synergy between both the ranger and the beast. Even spore druids get to command their zombies once on a BA but that same action carries away on subsequent turns freely, until you want them to do something else. A beast should be smarter than a zombie…
@orandor6249 you're right, and I agree with you! The problem is that Wizards doesn't see it that way. It SHOULD be autonomous, but it still counts towards your damage output. So they're over there wondering why people don't like a beast that can get up to an impressive 4 attacks with scaling damage, when we'd gladly settle for it to only ever have 2 that don't get damage scaling and that we don't have to actually pay for (which doesn't look impressive on paper). I only suggested the _Hunter's Mark_ "Sic 'em" combo to meet them halfway on the design they're set on so you don't have to choose between the two actions.
My biggest issue is that their design goal was to give other features at 5th level to martials besides Extra Attack. And then just forgot the Rangers?? Like they weren't shafted in 2014 and just forgot about them for the 2024 book?
Am I the only one who never saw much of an issue with the exploration aspect of a ranger? Yes some features were situational, but those could've been solved by talking to the dm In every party I've been the ranger never felt useless and we never had to carter to their needs. Exploration is one of the three pilars of dnd and I really enjoy it, haveing a ranger that can't get lost makes things better I can't understand why they got rid of the exploration stuff. They should've just made hunters' mark a class feature instead of a spell (the pathfinder ranger does that and its amazing), one of the issues the ranger had was that they never got access to any of their many concentration spells bc they always used it with hunter's mark, this would've solved it. Besides that they could've just given us the bg3 ranger (but with better choices)
So i have this in my notepad to copy and paste into any video i find dealing with the 2024 Ranger and/or hunter’s mark. If you compare the math on a full turn’s damage between a ranger and a fighter, the math comes out as follows: If we assume the ranger uses a greatsword with hunters mark and a fighter uses a greatsword w/o action surge, average damage per turn at lvl 20 is R: 2(2(3.5)+5.5+5)=35 F: 4(2(3.5)+5)=48 If you were to take a beast ranger and a battle master fighter to the equation R: 2(2(3.5)+5.5+5)+2(4.5+5.5+5)=65 F: 4(2(3.5)+6.5+5)=74 If you dont consider that the fighter uses action surge and the ranger gets around +6.5 to hit with ranged attacks vs melee the damage from hunters mark is strong enough not to make the fighter less effective in dealing single target melee damage, as well as trivializing enemies. Factoring in ranged (longbow) and action surge against an opponent with 18 ac the math is as follows: R: 4(4.5+5.5+5)x.8225=49.35 F: 2(4(2(3.5)+6.5+5))x.70=103.6 Keep in mind im not sure if the advantage from the lvl 17 hunters mark is applied to the pet. After 2 turns of surging and maneuvering the damage of the fighter drops to around 33.6 while the ranger is still doing 49.35. Adding subjective variables like range from danger and reach, the rangers damage is still respectable. Addendum: we still don’t know what hunters mark does in 2024 and all math performed here assumes it’s the 2014 version and not the UA6 version or some amalgamation of the two.
Sure, this is all fine but I should point out that none of my discussion was about the relative power of the Ranger. It was pretty much entirely focused around the design of the class and the impacts of focusing so many class features on one spell that requires concentration. The damage is probably fine, I said it was probably better than 2014, but that was very much not the focus of the discussion.
@@InsightCheck fair, like i said i copy/paste that on every video (positive or negative) dealing with the 2024 ranger. I generally see negative criticism of the dependance on it as a spell so this is usually the first of two msgs . The other comment i posted is more related to what u said
One most the main features of a D&D class is it's specialty. The thing it does that you can't get from another class. Sneak attack, metamagic, rage, etc. These are specialties for some of the various classes. You can't stop them. You can't interrupt them. They don't require concentration. There's a reason that no class should have a specialty that's a concentration spell.
Wait a minute, aren't barbarians still getting +4 str +4 con as a capstone? +4 strength is the same damage boost as the rangers capstone, only it doesnt require a spell a spell and is only half the feature
lol yup. And it aids in to hit modifier, athletics checks and anything else in strength. And then constitution for added health as well and saving throws haha It’s not even close!
@@biodude15that +4 strength will translate to a +2 strength modifier so only +2 damage. But also a +2 accuracy, or an extra 10% chance to hit which is significantly more damage on average.
@16:00 ... and the church said A-Men... I hate it when I have to remind people that you are paying for a finished product. When you get a Kickstarter and there is a page with a bad layout or a high level of spelling errors or a thing like some crazy grammar that leads to bad rules interpretations that will last for the next 10 years!!! And not to mention this should have been done last year. Ultimately, we have had 5 years to get THESE NEW BOOKS RIGHT!
Here’s hoping they remove concentration from certain spells such as The Smite Spells and Ensnaring Strike. I played Gloomstalker for a long time and those are the spells HM got in the way of most often.
New Hunter's Mark: Like Vow of Enmity, it gives you advantage against a single enemy for 1 minute, concentration free (& you can move it to another creature upon the death of the first one). No Bonus Action- it is just part of the attack action to initiate. No damage increase. Just advantage. It is no longer a spell, just a class feature, that can be used Wisdom modifier times per long rest. Then, at lvl 11- you get a bonus attack per turn against your marked creature. So a melee Ranger with 2 weapon fighting could get a fourth attack per turn, for example, while a longbow attacker could get up to 3 attacks per turn. Then at level 20, for your capstone, we pile on the damage. Add 3d6 to each damage roll, for up to 9d6 extra damage per turn with traditional attack routines, or up to 12d6 per turn with 2wf. Because its a CAPSTONE. In the meantime, at lower levels, if the player wants to add damage to their attacks, they could concentrate on a spell, like flame arrows (or hopefully some new equivalent for melee Rangers.) If we want to make Rangers "range" with movement increases, then they should probably get a second 10ft increase. I'd move the first increase to level 6 or so. Then add the second increase to level 13, so they'll have a 50ft walk, swim, & climb speed at lvl 13. I'd reduce their Expertises from 3, to 2. One given at 2nd level. The second given around 7th or 9th level. And I'd return Primeval Awareness, but as a class ability, useable Wis mod times per long rest- no spell slots. And it would work like a radar "ping"- the Ranger would be able to sense creatures, their type & quantity & general direction & distance, out to say... 500 ft? I'd get rid of the lvl 14 Invisiblilty. Instead, I'd give them permanent Advantage on Stealth & Perception & Survival checks, at lvl 14 (Aragorn: "I can remain unseen, if i wish. But to disappear entirely? That is a rare gift.") This is just something i came up with in the early morning hours, off the top of my head. I did not playtest it, revise it, or even give it a second thought. But surely it CANNOT be worse than the insulting pile of garbage that WotC is giving us?
The problem is ALSO thematic... they created a HUNTER, not a RANGER. I would love if the hunder subclass was reworked to function entirely based on hunter's mark (tracking, resistance ignoring, bonus when defeating someone with hunters mark)... but the ranger subclass need to look like a Ranger: A light armored fighter who tracks and is resourceful... specialized in survival. Now its a slayers/hunter 200% focused on spellcasting. VERY bad for creating a good atmosphere with new players.
I get the point with hunters mark, and it is definitely valid. Its a comparable problem with wildshape, where its a feature that negates other features of a base or subclass, effectively always limiting the things you can do to a subset of all your features. Though, when playing a ranger, I always felt that casting spells mostly had its niche, peak moments, as half caster spell progression otherwise couldnt keep up with solving encounters with damage. In many encounters, I would rather solely attack. With weapon masteries, incentives are given to use weapons that do not enable an attack with your bonus action. In those many cases of just focussing on damage, hunters mark actually doesn't compete with any other concentration spells and is mostly fine. The way its implemented in 2024, you still do either or with a ranger, but at least do not spend your casting resources on the "solving through attacking" strategy that much. I think when playing, it isn't that big of a deal to have features locked behind hunters mark gameplay
I feel like it is worth pointing out the positives here: - Spellcasting moved to Level 1 so its easier to multiclass now and you get spells faster! - You can switch out a spell known every day! - Weapon Mastery! - 2 more Expertise - total of 3 now! - Faster move speeds + climbing and swimming! - Reduce exhaustion during short rests! - Vanish - Invisibility as Bonus Action! - Blindsight - 30 feet! It also seemed like every single subclass got buffed in some ways. Hunter's Mark may not be the most exciting feature - but you now get free castings of it, easy concentration, and later on... permanent advantage on attacks, and scaling damage. Oh and Hunter's Mark now does Force damage to help you bypass damage resistances... starting at Level 1. I feel like everyone is missing out on these very nice buffs across the board just because people think the capstone is disappointing. I wonder how many people will ever get to even experience the capstone vs. the rest of these features anyway? We also still don't have the full text of the class or even updated language regarding the Hunter's Mark spell... so I feel like maybe folks shouldn't jump to conclusions yet and just give the Ranger a playtest when it comes out?
Ok... And what If I do not wish to be concentrating on a forst level spell for 1d6 damage? Should I just be locked out of 4-5 of my features? They in this same book completely unbound warlock from eldrich blast so why do this to hunter and force them into a playstyle that not everyone wants.
My fix: HM deals increased damage when you reach certain levels OF THIS CLASS, then detail standard cantrip scaling. 2dx at 5th, 3dx at 11th and 4dx at 17th. This makes it so you aren't needing to choose between HM and other con spells, it gives a STRONG reason to stay with Ranger, and the capstone hits a lot harder when it's 4 die upscaling, though I would have it scale up to d12s. All or nothing. Though I personally think that 'Hunters Mark' should be it's own feature, not a spell.
I agree with your overall assessment, but I’m trying to temper my feelings with two unknowns: 1) As you mentioned, we don’t know how many of the Ranger spells will still be concentration. I think the Conjure/Summon spells will reasonably still use concentration, but hopefully stuff like Ensnaring Strike and Zephyr Strike will not interrupt HM. 2) We don’t know if they changed the rules for Concentration in the new version. I think it’s unlikely that they will have a method for concentrating on multiple spells at once, but we don’t know yet, unless I’ve missed something. So we’ll see if these decisions are as dumb as they seem.
What are the biggest problems they have on the ranger is they are not keeping a consistency of design between the ranger and the other classes. Other classes have channel Divinity, wild shape, rage, and sneak attack among other things where they are a part of the class and not necessarily a spell and can be used for things other than for what they are originally intended to use for. What they probably should have done to keep consistency was to make Hunter's Mark a pool on its own that is refillable once for a short rest and all for a long rest, and then use those pools for the main hunters Mark spell or for its alternative like to recall your beast in The beastmaster or guarantee a hit with an advantage is the hunter or Misty step for the gloom stalker. Yes concentration is an issue and eventually should be addressed but as it is right now the ranger falls short in places that the fighter, the cleric, the bard, the rogue, and the barbarian all don't. Even the barbarian can take their rage and use a rage token as a spell, a druid can use wild shape as a spell, and a cleric or a paladin can use their channel Divinity to exchange for a spell or change a spell into a channel Divinity and use it for some other purpose than just turning undead. No this is my opinion of course and it may not be the greatest but if they had just did the replenishment of a pool of Hunter's Mark so that you have say to proficiency that one is replenished on a short rest and two is replenished on a full rest and you make them exchangeable for spells and you make them useful to do one or two other things beyond it in the subclasses, then you can approach any other shortcomings along the way like the non scaling of the dye, which both Monk and I believe even rogue get on their sneak attack, but also you can work on things like number of targets or making it automatic and you can still put the restriction that it is only useful for rangers and not for others if you multi-class. Even the concentration can be addressed as a later upgrade as the ranger goes on so that if you multi-class into something else you don't gain the automatic Hunter's Mark you have a Hunter's Mark you have to concentrate on unless you are a higher ranger.
I think there’s 1 reason they refuse to remove concentration: Hex. After the first Ranger playtest came out, there was at least 1 video pointing out that a level 1 Ranger with Magic Initiate from their background could have both Hex and Hunter’s Mark up at the same time. Which is arguably OP for a level 1 character. The simplest fix is to build lack of concentration into the upcasting. Say, when cast at 2nd level or higher it no longer requires concentration, similar to Bestow Curse.
Gotta say, I really like that you are reviewing these properly, looking at the improvements and also... some of the problems. A lot of youtubers are in the 'new toy' phase atm, where it's all new interesting etc, but not actually thinking about how these things player in reality.
Here's an easy solution to fix this problem. Keep everything they have just add these. Hunter's Mark damage scales like the monk strike damage. At level 6 ,11, 17 Add to Level 10 - Augment mark - Once per short or long rest spend all your free uses of Hunter's mark to not concentrate on the spell. The spell duration only last one minute. Can use this ability if you spend a 2rd level spell slot. Replace with this - At level 13 you have advantage on Con save for mataning concentration on spells. Level 17 Primary evil awareness Once per short or long rest spend all your free uses of Hunter's mark to mark a number of creatures equal to you wisdom modifier. The spell duration last for one minute. Can use this ability if you spend a 3rd level spell slot. Replace - Level 20 Supreme foe slayer You critical in a 19 or 20. You can add your wisdom modifier to attack and damage to creatures affected by your Hunter's mark spell. Affected creatures all take an extra die of damage every turn they are not healed while Affected by Hunter's mark.
Honestly, I feel like they should've just removed hunters mark - like, it's kinda fun to use on a Warlock I guess with their whole 'efficient vs. burst spell' dillema, but on a ranger, it just encourages you to spend your spell slots and concentration on boring stuff, instead of the cool spells. Like, just give them +1d6 damage on hits at that point...
optimizers: you probably don't want to use hunters mark after a certain point as you have better stuff to concentrate on wotc: fine, we'll force it down your throat, don't you dare optimize away what we see as core class features!
My issue is that the beast master ranger has 3 scores you want to be 'good,' con for keeping concentration, wisdom for spell attack bonus, and strength or dex for your own attacks or defense. You could get items to up a specific stat to 19, no difficult they are currently uncommon, but also add in NEEDING 1 OR 2 weapons to keep up with other melee characters damage output. Oh and to use your ranger abilities and skill set you'll need to get a DM who doesn't mind letting you explore your surroundings
I think the design teams idea was for the Ranger and Paladin both to really lean into their bonus action spells. Smites for the Paladin and Hunter's Mark for Rangers. I get why people are kinda having issues with the Ranger's reliance to Hunters Mark, But it really was one of the only things that gave Rangers any identity of their own. Otherwise, they just become half-Fighters and half-Druids. Personally I don't recall what concentration spells the Ranger relies on other than Hunter's Mark, but I really don't see any difference between Ranger's reliance on Hunter's Mark and Paladin's reliance on Divine Smite. There is a reason why Paladin's spell slots are jokingly referred to as "Smite Slots." In fact, I would argue that Rangers have it a lot better than Paladins do now since Rangers get so many free castings of Hunter's Mark as opposed to Paladins one free Smite per day. The Divine spells are my favorite spells in the game, but If I'm being honest those spell slots are simply better used on Divine Smite when in the hands of a Paladin. Rangers still have access to their spells, So the spells are still there and readily available and even with the additions to Hunter's Mark, that doesn't invalidate the rest of the Ranger's spell list. All that's changed is now the Ranger has a baseline signature ability like the Paladin's Divine Smite, the Warlocks Eldritch Blast, and the Bard's legendary thirst. Hunter's Mark won't be the answer to every problem but it will be the standard operating procedure Rangers use unless they run up against something that requires something different.
@brettmajeske3525 well obviously you can't concentrate on multiple spells at once. I've never played a Ranger, but I have played games where two other players played Rangers, and they almost never casted spells. They mostly relied on class features.
@@brettmajeske3525 Well that's what I was exposed to when it comes to Rangers. Now to be fair, at my table I play with very conservative players who over think whether or not they should cast a spell or use a short rest ability. Like for real I played with two sperate Bard players who made frequent use of the hide and dodge actions in combat rather than just staying back with either a light cross bow or casting any spells. We might have seen the occasional Vicious Mockery every now and then, but It was a hard stretch to say it was every combat encounter. I was constantly being told I was burning to many resources as a Paladin when using Smite against some of the more powerful foes we were facing. examples included a young green dragon against a level 4 party of 5, a fire giant, a hydra, both of which were a 1v5 against a 5th level party, two Beholder Zombies, also against a level 5 party, and lastly a pair of Night Hags which finally brought us up to level 6. by this point in the campaign I had come to realize our DM wasn't interested in preparing a dungeon so we would get one fight every few sessions even if it was tipped one way or the other. In the other game where I played a Divine Soul Sorcerer I was also criticized for actually casting spells and not relying on cantrips alone. catching 3 or 4 enemy creatures in a single fireball is a good trade off for a 3rd level spell, but again, I would receive criticism for overusing my resources by the party I was playing with. luckily the DM for that game actually enjoyed crafting dungeons and took my side one night and pointed out that even though every single enemy survived my fireball and failed the save on top of it, it's still a good use of a spell slot since dealing damage is always better then trying to prevent or undo damage once it's been taken.
@@andakin117 I started playing D&D in 1978 when I was 12 years old, and have never been at a table like that. I don't think your experience is that typical, it seems like they would better off all playing Champion fighters.
I don’t know if I completely agree with the argument that the new ranger forcing you to use hunters mark is a bad thing. WOTC have made a point that hunters mark is rangers central feature, the class is supposed to use it all the time. It’s like saying that the barbarian forces you to use rage, or rouges force you to use sneak attack. I guess it’s tricky because WOTC is essentially creating a new class from the fantasy of an old class, rather than a brand new class. In regards to concentration, honestly I thought that they’d get rid of it, it’s the main problem with the spell, but it’s also impossible to say how it conflicts with the rest of the spell until we see the updated spell list. Maybe WOTC solved this issue by removing concentration off of other spells or giving more versatile options? I dunno, maybe I just like it cause I like the fantasy of hunters mark.
I could see really liking hunter's mark, but the capstone and stuff around it isn't quite there yet. If I got free casts, it eventually let me bonus action attack the marked creature, and eventually didn't require concentration then I'm down. Basically, if it was designed to make you a single target monster of a damage dealer then I'm down.
As a love of using rangers, Hunter's Mark was my main spell and the only time I didnt use it was if I needed to thin a group. Plus Hunter's Mark allows 1d6 per attack. Say you are a Hunter(Horde Breaker) lv5 ranger, with just 1 war domain cleric. If you are fighting a group and they didnt tweak horde breaker too much, that is 4d6 extra damage you could do on your second turn. 3d6 on turn 1 after casting hunter's mark. if you just use 2 weapon fighting as well, it still adds up in damage. might remake my first dnd character to see what insane damage I can put out.
Believe it or not the entire class of Ranger and all classes were modified to stop what you did in your character. HM was never the main for any Ranger Companion class as well as it was not ideal for most after 5th. That though is one major thing about Rangers that was lost by forcing use of the HM spell - flexibility for making it as you like.
As a DM I would probably just give a ranger concentration free hunters mark at level 11, right around when the fighter gets a 3rd attack. It does not seem too powerful at 11th level, even if you stack hex or something similar. At 20th level I would make the 1d10 of hunters mark automatically target any weaknesses a creature has, it feels thematic and it would actually be pretty cool
If they had just made it so that at x ranger level (with x being a single digit, preferably a lower single digit) Hunter’s Mark no longer requires concentration, that would have been a great feature while still keeping dupers in line. As it is, not loosing concentration due to damage comes online far too late and still keeps you from using a lot of Ranger spells. Also, you only get to swap out one prepares spell per long rest? I guess that is a slight improvement. Hopefully, Rangers will not have so many concentration spells and this might mitigate some of these issues.
I feel the same way with Hex though they are less built around it. Sub class stuff, maybe a high level ability not mentioned, and some invocations. But I don't care reduce its effect a little bit just find a way that the feature or spell that is that thematically appropriate isn't concentration.
Hunters mark is fine at low level and gets worse as you (and your enemies) level up. The class features make it better though. So maybe it will be worth casting at higher levels now. BUT that doesn't forgive that terrible capstone or the fact that you effectively can't cast any other concentration spells. Concentration free HM is exploitable at low levels with multiclassing, but I'd say at level 10 give them the ability to cast HM with a 1 min duration that doesn't use concentration. Then move Tireless to level 13.
I also want to be positive and recognize the good changes, but what were they thinking? Did they just ignore everyone (myself included) who asked for another pass on the Ranger for the UA? Did they just give up because they ran out of time? In terms of Hunter's Mark if the concentration requirement is still being kept, would an extra d6 of damage per spell level (applicable to every attack that hits) be too much to ask for? (i.e. level 2 =2d6, level 3 =3d6, level 4=4d6, etc.) (This would be able to be cast at the highest level without expending a spell slot equal to one's Wisdom modifier every long rest. )
I’d be interested in seeing a direct comparison for hunters mark vs Summon Beast avg dmg. I think even if the beast comes up a little short, the viability of the beast would still be higher as it presents “preventative healing” by presenting another pool of HP for enemies to wear down. But the fact a don’t have class feature options that can impact Summon Beast, it would feel bad (though a couple free casts if of HM if the beast does mid battle feels alright).
My group just agreed on removing concentration on hunters mark. Move this ranger 20th level feature to 13th level and create a new 20th level feature that still focuses on hunters mark because I don’t think the idea of the class being around hunters mark is bad, it just the spell is bad because of concentration
The largest issue with ranger is their reliance on concentration bonus action spells. The class and many subclasses also had issues with their features being niche to useless. They have fixed the issues of useless feature, they have fixed hunters mark not scaling. However, the issue of bonus action concentration spells is at leasy as big an issue now. You now will want to use just hunters mark at all levels rather than 5he first 5 ish levels. We will see but i hope their spell lists were adapted with this in mind.
I'm of the opinion that Hunter's Mark shouldnt even be a spell at all. I think making it a just a class feature akin to the slayers prey from the Monster Slayer would be the best choice.
This was made without context for how they have changed the spell list, so it is not really fair to compare changes to hunters mark as it affects the other spells as we do not know what they did do the spell list. Given that in 4e they were a "striker" (ranged damage dealer like a sorcerer) this might signal that they are going back to that and their spell list will revolve around damage spells, which generally do not require concentration as much. This reliance on a single feature is how mostclasses are made; ie barbarians =rage, warlocks = eldritch blast, sorcerer=sorcery points. That is what defined the core character and one of the issues with rangers was they did not have that: a fighter with a biw was a better Archer, a rougue was better at survival skills as they could have more and expertise, a Druid was a better natural spell caster, wizards had familiar that were usually better because they could cast through them... the ranger needed something to hang the identity on, and this is a decent attempt at that from what I have seen. This is just the limits of a class based system with a laser focus on combat.
The fact that Treantmonk said that if he played a Ranger he would only concentrate on Hunter's mark if the situation didn't ask for anything else probably means there's still alot of better options of concentration spells for Ranger. Afterall, he already got the book, he just can't talk much about.
@@asilva4956 we do not know that there are no better options because the changes to the spells have not been released. Even the advanced copy versions cannot talk about the changes to the spells yet by their agreement, meaning WotC might still change them. This reviewer is taking 3rd hand info, at best and does not have context for the entire rule set. Tree ent monk is a theory crafter who does builds out of the norm. He does joke builds and optimized builds, so long as it is an interesting idea, he does not nessicarily go for max damage as his channel would have run out of content long ago. His chanal is still putting out new build ideas from the 2014 book, so I find it hard to beleive He has thought of every possible angle from an advanced copy read in less than a month. Plus, he is not allowed to share therefore cannot play with it per his NDA. There is also an element to his builds that he wants a clever way to do something. He complained about the gloom stalker ranger being "too good" as it was a "no brainer" to take because there was not a better option; his critiques do not imply there is not an optimal choice so much as there is not an interesting choice and with his play style he would get bored of an optimal thing to do that never changes as his play preference. He is not the "get a +1,000" to hit power gamer so much as the "what can I do with a prestitigitation spell to make it broken at 20th level" type of power gamer, for context of the statement. Catch 22 for most of the "better concentration options" is they are mutually exclusive because they are concentration. We do not know what spells will be concentration yet, but let us say they have a choice between a hunter's mark that has 5 features associated with it, Spike Growth, or Bark Skin. Those other two spells might be conditionally better in some circumstances, but you could never do bark skin and spike both at the same time, so they are very niche in their effect as opposed to the 5 features you are getting with Hunter's Mark, making them both worse options over all. All that having been said the 2014 ranger is an OK class, but a small group on line bash it to the point that it is a meme. Most surveys and polls I have seen as well as data from play sites, put it in the top 5 of classes fairly consistently. You do not have to be *the best* to be fun. Like a human fighter, they might be in there for more simple options because the vast majority of d&d players are not optomancers willing to read the book cover to cover to find which feat synergies with which spell the best. That type of player will not care they are doing hunter's mark every round, and that is a fine way to play.
Although this class is stronger than the 2014 version, lets not forget what they actually did to this class. They just took all of Tasha's features made it baseline, added a few Hunter's Mark required features and called it completely new. Beast Master got the worst of it, Jeremey Crawford described it as "a whole new subclass with only the name and theme kept the same" he then talked about and confirmed it with D&D beyond post how it's the exact same subclass as it was before (if you included TCOE).
The community should band together in response to this humiliation of a class that has struggled for the past ten years (both mechanically and in terms of flavor this "new" ranger sucks) and demand from WotC PUBLIC ACCESS to a REVISED RANGER pdf after they release the 2024 Player's Handbook. Every like on this comment represents support for this motion. I have been playing a ranger character for over a year now, and I was really hoping for so much more. They've proven they can improve classes when they want to with the monk, so why not make the ranger better? Spread the word, people.
i really like laserllama's version of the ranger. the way i see, it's the adaptable one that takes strength from the enviroment. not one with pets, not druid spells, not the super specialized, not a bow. every class is a explorer/adventurer and will survive the wilds with creativity.
This is exactly why I like GURPS. I never have to worry that MY vision of MY character is not influenced of the devs vision of what a ranger or rogue is supposed to be or do. I can build exactly what I want, only limited by my GM for balance.
The features tied to HM make the player choose between single-target DPS or utility, control, etc. Not a big deal, it has free casts now. Also as much as everyone wants to complain about HM, they forget Ranger is the only martial with (now significantly buffed) AoE.
Even if damage is comparable to other classes. building the class around Hunter's Mark is just bad design. It feels like you're being punished by wanting to concentrate on another spell and rangers have some really good spells.
People think warlocks rely too much on eldritch blast. Warlock only buffs eldritch blast when some optional eldritch invocations are selected. Now ranger pushes a spell onto you, many rangers will feel they need to choose between the repetitive, strong option or what is made out to be the worse option of anything other than Hunter's Mark
Regardless of Hunter's Mark, I've seen no one mention that Primal Awarness, Land's Stride, and Vanish have been removed, and Nature's Viel moved from level 10 to 14
Another issue is the fact that Hunter's Mark is a bonus action to cast, which competes with a lot of the Ranger abilities or play styles, from two weapon fighting to commanding your beast/drake companion.
I like how there was a weapon mastery that increased the damage die of a versatile weapon when one handing it, and people made it known that they didn't like it. Even though the designers thought it was the strongest option, it just wasn't interesting compared to the other options. So what do they do with a first level feature? Double it and make it a 20th level feature. Brilliant. Also for beast masters, to my knowledge there is no synergy with hunters mark. You have to spend a bonus action casting hunters mark and not interacting with your beast, and when the target dies you once again have to ignore your beast. It could be an east fix with allowing you to cast hunters mark with the same bonus action you command your beast, or if thats too strong, you can just apply it to a new target when you command your beast, limiting the downtime of your beast to just the first turn of combat though even that is still a significant proportion, or your beast doesn't get the spells damage for that attack, though that seems a little convoluted to keep track of. Maybe after your beast makes an attack against a target you can apply the spell to them.
The problem i see is the bonus action economy. beastmaster command beast two weapon fighting turn invisible(one of the raners later level abilities) thats alot you to do with the same action. having to have hunter mark be a bonus action that requires concentraion on top of that is stupid . they just gave us earlier spell casting so why are they saying that all our feature prevent us from using it
There is now a weapon mastery proprety that allows you to make the TWF attack as part of the attack action. So at least TWF is not in this list anymore. It was so annoying.
As of now thats just the dagger and scimitar right? hopefully other weapons are on that list. The part that's a real slap in the face is that yes we get our spell casting earlier however we are discouraged, by class design, from using what I assume is 50% of the spell list since hunters mark requires our concentration and if we dont use it we are making alot of our class features pointless. Especially the hunter. hunters mark should have just been a feature that you got uses equal to your wis mod +1 and it doesn't require concentration . or something of the like
I have played since AD&D. Started again, by playing 5e. First 5e character was a half elf Level 5 Gloomstalker/Level 4 Samurai. I wanted to be a machine gun with a sniper scope. (elven accuracy/ sharpshooter) As a sort-a noob I started with a lot of Hunter's mark. Then I watched the Drakkenheim game. I started to use a lot more Zepher Strike. My damage/mobility/FUN went way up. If they don't take away concentration on so many other Ranger spells this sucks.
I have thought about it a while and the biggest place I disagree with you is that shifting from PB to ability (Wis in this case) was good and right. It is bad because : 1) With MAD classes, you already are spread thin in attributes and now you are forcing them to at best use all ASI for attribute bonus and nothing else or loose class features 2) it is fundamentally wrong to harm a single class person because multiclass can be more powerful 3) Unless you boost underlaying features they are innately less powerful as Attribute Mods cap at +5 and PR caps at 6 4) Because subclass features are now locked at 3rd level of he most powerful and abused features require significant investment and so they are not simple easy pickups but difficult to acquire items so letting them be more powerful is a tactical choice that should have pay off (and if you keep the level 3 lock you have already punished the behavior once which is enough) ((And good luck on getting your sub number))
I don't think the entire class resolves around hunters mark. The way I see it, Its just 2 class features on levels when half casters usually don't get anything. In 5e and all the playtest the rangers and the paladins get nothing except spell scaling at level 13 and 17 (actually, i guess in one of the playtest the ranger gets conjure volley automatically prepared, but thats basically nothing). So it was a minor upgrade to hunters mark, or nothing. Ill take it over nothing. Its just 2 ribbons. I don't think 2 ribbons affects things that much. The capstone is terrible tho.
@@TrixyTrixter no its not. It doesn't force you to do cast the spell and its a nice buff when you do. It literally doesn't limit your options, it empowers an option that you already had. If you don't think its worth it, don't cast it, but it's nice for whatever you want to preserve spell slots.
hunter's mark is still concentration, as are about half the ranger's other spells. concentrating on hunter's mark locks you out of half your spell list, and concentrating on any other spell locks you out of core class features. hunter's mark always using a bonus action for even just moving it means that if you want to move your hunter's mark you can't also then make your beast companion attack, or take the extra bonus action attack of the Dual Wielder feat, or some other more important bonus action. seems pretty limiting.
Beast master should not need to use a bonus action every turn to get the beast to do something. Even the spore Druids can command their zombies to act once on a bonus action (all of them) and carry that same action freely on subsequent turns. A warrior beast should be smarter than a zombie. Another thing that is not clear to me regarding the beast master is how to make sure you do not lose the beast, because if it dies during combat it effectively makes the beast master much less effective with damage outputs and other things compared to other classes and other subclasses.
I’m an old school Ranger player. I like that they adopted Tasha’s rules for the most part. I’m not a huge fan on the reliance of Hunter’s mark because of how they did it. First and foremost HM is a tracking spell…. No issues with that…. (In some campaigns it’s a great spell, but other spells like fairy fire are much nicer). Traditionally the spell scaling is the duration of how long you can track your prey (You know where it is up to a maximum of 24 hrs.) it gives an additional D6 damage if you hit the target (if…. Little word, big meaning). So if you up cast and fore go short and long rests…. You can track your target for up to 24 hours. Mechanically it’s clunky and removes half of tiredless’s feature to maintain concentration while everyone else regains HP and spell slots during a rest.😂😂😂 That is just bad design for a class feature, folks. If you want to make it a class feature, you expand on it like in the hunter sub class. TBH, that’s where they dropped the ball with HM. It’s features should escalate, like advantage earlier, changing damage types…. Simple things to improve it and make it worth while to spend the concentration on it. Hail of thorns is a better use of concentration as well as zephyr strike as a lvl 1 spell, both use concentration and do additional damage (hail of thorns scales with spell slots, zephyr strike doesn’t). New ranger players will see HM as the hallmark of the class and it is not nor never has been the hallmark of the class. The AOE control spells like entangle and snare have been the hallmarks of the class and they use what? Concentration😂😂😂😂
Fully agree with your takes on hunters mark. Ive played some version of ranger in every campaign ive played and ive taken hunters mark exactly 0 times. I just want to do other concentration things and dont have the spell slots hunters mark, then zephyr strike, then hunters mark again every combat. Really wish they stuck to their guns removing concentration, even if they left the nerfed hunters mark with damage once per turn i wouldve been ok with that.
I also don't understand why they didn't improve on conjure barrage and conjure volley as a core aoe feature of the ranger. Having them prepared and known for free was a good start. They should've given you a free use for each of them or two, since the aoe spells of the ranger are somewhat gimped compared to aoe options of fulll casters.
I have given this exact feedback in the survey. You either lose access to your most interesting spells or a dozen of your features. Dead features continue to be the bane of the ranger. I don't even homebrew Hunter's mark in 2014, because you just learn different spells. 2024 continues to create problems for the DM to deal with. Designing a TTRPG is hard, especially with monumental tasks like backwards compatibility, I get it. But man, every time something like this pops up I can't help but think "Really? Again?"
I think both Hex and Hunter's Mark could stop requiring concentration after level 11 at Ranger and 11 at Warlock... This way a character would be prevented to cast both and also concentrate on something else
btw, I seriously disagree that rangers are now going to feel shoehorned into casting hunters mark and only hunters mark due to it being a concentration spell 1, the first improvement to the spell you get is free casts of it, meaning that you can cast it and still cast other spells, and if you don't cast other spells, you will end the day with like 6 unused spell slots, which is just silly 2, the second improvement to the spell is at 13th level, 13th level! you can not say that most of your class features are hunters mark features unless you build your character for a level 20 oneshot, but no, the new player started at level 1, and progressed for the first 12 levels, by now they have 4 free casts of hunters mark per day, most days they literally have 2 hunters marks left over, and they have 3 3rd level spell slots, 2 second level spell slots, and 4 first level spell slots that they still are leaving unused every single day if they refuse to cast literally any other spell one great concentration ranger spell is barkskin, which is a second level transmutation bonus action spell which takes concentration, and at level 9 on the dex ranger build gives you 7 temporary hit points every turn for an hour, which is an average of 35 temp hp every combat, assuming you have the tough feat so that you stay alive, and fight in 2 consecutive combats before a short rest, as well as take resilient constitution to maintain the spell, you could easily get 40 damage reduction out of the spell, and that amount will scale into higher levels as your concentration saving throw goes up you also have great spells like summon beast, jump, longstrider, absorb elements, even cure wounds for some intra-combat support is alot better now, not to mention other non-concentration smite spells like burning smite I think one was called? so many ranger spells are non-concentration and can combo with hunters mark, but also, you should find yourself with levels apon levels of experience about how to use other concentration spells before you are level 13 and finally have the almighty hunters mark buff of you can't lose concentration on it due to damage, which is ok but not like, crazy it doesn't increase the damage of the spell it just makes it so you can end it whenever you want to, rather than having to spend your bonus action every turn recasting it, so you can use your bonus action for other things I am sorry I just don't see how a new player gets to level 17, the first *Real* buff to hunters mark, advantage on attacks, without realising how the other ranger spells work like, the narrative you are painting here is I am new, join a 1-17 campaign, have fun the entire time, and the moment I hit level 17 I stop using any other spells, only use level 1 hunters marks for the advantage that I was already getting from the cleric who is for some reason still casting level 1 guiding bolts or something you are 17th level... you have other ways to get advantage, like, all these features do is enhance a tool you already had, sure you could argue that you could get a class feature that you could always use, rather than a strong feature tied to a relatively weak spell, but I mean, like if you are going the max hunters mark build, two weapon fighter, 3 attacks per turn, I don't see how you can't just knock an enemy prone to get advantage if you are really desperate for advantage idk man, Rangers kick butt, and I like using hunters mark, I've always thought of it as a signiture ranger spell, and the friend of mine who enjoys hunters mark would definitely enjoy it always prepared and 2 - 3 casts of it for free for the entirety of our 1-10 campaign, but he'd also enjoy getting advantage with it at level 17*, when he isn't using swift quiver ofc, the other spell that a ranger gets at 17th level, and the *actual* 17th level ranger feature for reference, do you know what the Paladin 17th level feature is? that's right *NOTHING* or the paladin 20th level class feature? that's right, also nothing! they do get their 4th subclass feature that they could have got at level 14 though, that's pretty cool compare rangers and paladins, rangers are getting a free buff to hunters mark instead of literal nothing, this would not be replaced with a more generic always on feature.
I don't have a problem with Ranger features be focus around Hunter's Mark, but i don't get why they don't turn the spell into feature. That would easely solve the concentration problem, even if nerfs where made to acomodate that.
I'm with you on this. This is a better ranger, but still basically the '14 monk. I was really hoping that they'd do more, and this weird push on HM especially when your capstone essentially makes it con free... HM should either be a cantrip, or the damage needs to scale with level. Because I doubt theyll make more ranger spells that don't require concentration. Or hell, if they can cast other concentration ranger spells while concentrating on HM that'd be an improvement.
Rangers at 5th level are inferior to all other classes because of the Extra Attack feature. All other classes with the Extra Attack feature get something else. Paladins get Find Steed. Monks get Stunning Strike. Barbarian gets Faster Movement. Fighters get Tactical Shift. It looks like Rangers get nothing at 5th level. This is especially relevant when multi-classing. If you multi-class with any of these classes, you already have Extra Attack, so you only get 2nd level spells, which the Paladin gets in addition to Extra Attack. I brought this to their attention during the UA, but I guess they didn't read my feedback or didn't think it was relevant.
btw, the old ranger 17th level feature, does anyone remember what it was? that's right! a 5th level spell slot. I swear people gaslight themselves into getting a free feature is a nerf, if they were to change the ranger with feedback, this is what 17th level would look like 17th: - the 17th level feature is the first ranger feature that makes hunters mark more powerful, the new design is not overly reliant on hunters mark, they got a new free thing for free freely for free, and then people want their money back refund, you get nothing instead the 20th level ranger capstone is just bad, but reliable, the old one was also bad, and unreliable, so this is technically a buff from 2014 ranger
The 17th feature is good, it just comes too late to help with the problem of constant concentration. There is no real reason to use Hunter's Mark between 10 and 16 because there are better spells to concentrate on.
InsightCheck's reply to another comment strikes true with me regarding 2014 vs 2024 ranger. "It's better than 2014 so stop complaining" misses the point and is an inherently flawed philosophy. Not everyone reading PHB2024 will have played or even seen 2014 ranger to be able to make such a comparison; and just because something is Better Than It Was still doesn't mean it's any good. The bar is on the floor, it doesnt take much effort to pick your feet up properly and step over it, yet somehow WOTC still manages to trip on it.
@deffdefying4803 Ok, I will clarify my position, it is more powerful, and also I think it's fun It feels different than rogues cunning strikes, and it feels different than the new smite options, but it is not different than those in balance, For cunning strike, you lose 1d6 of damage in order to get your condition, with hunters mark, well you gain 1d6, so if you cast another concentration spell, all that does is cost 1d6 for each round you keep up that condition, and rangers have other non-concentration buffs they will keep using, while say paladin only has concentration buffs, so their main ability is non-concentration So for ranger you lose 1d6 damage to trigger another effect which can last multiple rounds, and if you lose concentration on that you just recast Hunter's mark anyway, also for free Hunters mark also has a very long duration, so a single free cast of it works like multiple smites over the course of a dungeon, making it very efficient at low levels, like levels 1-10 At higher levels, you get the ability that concentration on the spell isn't broken through damage, and you get more uses, so it is even more efficient for turning on or off whenever you want the damage bonus or want a different spell, it's basically a toggle ability at that point You can argue the ranger capstone is bad, because it is just awful, and is just as weak as the old ranger capstone, but by level 20 hunters mark is arguably on par with a 2nd level spell, and you have 6 free uses of it Most D&D players never run out of spell slots, if that is you, and you just cast one spell slot per long rest, then use the optional rules in the DMG to make long rests take 1 week of rest and short rests take 8 hours, I would like to also add that if the new ranger didn't get any features (exclusively at high levels) that buff hunters mark, it would just have fewer features, you can cross reference the old ranger, but they got no class features at those levels except a new level of spell slot, except their capstone which was just as powerful as not getting a feature at all, and those levels have now had extra features added to them for free, just to make hunters mark a little more viable, since that is how they mark favoured enemies now What this means is, if you want to buff hunters mark to say, make it non concentration whatsoever at level, say 13, you would have to take away something from another area of the ranger, such as their 4th level spell slot, no more spell slots, but you get non-concentration hunters mark! And you might be thinking, but Nyan, you *can't* be serious, but yeah, if hunters mark is non-concentration, then it stacks with conjure minor elementals, which, if you hadn't guessed, may or may not be a 4th level ranger spell in the new book, and it may or may not be completely fluffing busted, and hunters mark doesn't cost a spell slot so, you can cast hunters mark and conjure minor elementals, or conjure fey or whatever, in the same turn, since that doesn't conflict with the new 1 spell slot spell per turn rule, so you just made that spell 50% more broken than it already was, which is not ok,
@@nyanbrox5418 i'm going to be honest. an extra 1d6 on top of minor elementals wouldnt exactly be groundbreaking at 13TH LEVEL when they get 4th-level spells, and if rangers are going to be The Hunter's Mark Class then it should at least make hunter's mark interesting. so far it looks like they've stripped rangers of most of their exploration flavour in favour of being a fighter with a small bonus to damage that requires concentration, and half a spell list. quarter, if you have concentration 1d6 up. and a lot of features cant be used on the same turn as you use or move your concentration 1d6 because it requires a bonus action to do either. the beastmaster's companion command comes immediately to mind as it is a core feature of one of the ranger's own subclasses. i would feel less animosity towards it if it at least didn't require anything to _move_ the concentration 1d6. as it stands though, concentration 1d6 tries to compete with so many features (including other features of its own class) as if it's anything more than concentration 1d6. cool, it lasts for longer if you upcast it... meanwhile conjure minor elementals feels a lot more flavourful and does a lot more damage.
@deffdefying4803 I don't like that hunters mark needs a bonus action to move, but you probably aren't taking crossbow expert anymore, so overall I'm like, that's fine My main point is that even though it looks like alot of features went into hunters mark, actually very little "power budget" did, the old barbarian had a huge power budget go into brutal critical for example, but about half of the rangers went into spells, and the other half went into weapons, and the other half went into expertise, and then a small trickle went into the mark of controversy Hunters mark was not meant to be every enemy, it was meant to be as rare as favoured enemy, just you have the agency in when you wanted it
I think Chris Perkins was lowkey warning us when he said that if it was up to him, he would have folden the ranger (and other classes) into a subclass of the fighter or another class. Personally, the magical ranger archetype is not one that I enjoy, so forcing me to be that is just a huge downer for me.
This focus around Hunter's Mark reminds me of how PF2 treats their version of it called Hunt Prey, where a relativly large number of other abilities only function agsinst a hunted target. However, over there the feature doesn't cost a resource beyond the action to use it, and isn't a spell to concentrate on, and is widly considered a fun and balanced class. Rangers are my favorite class in any system, and its always sad to see it get botched.
A lot of people are upset about Ranger's but in actuality, they gave them buffs. Trying to wash their hands of 2014, this is essentially Tasha's Ranger. The only remnants of 2014 is the name "Favored Enemy", preparing and providing FREE Hunter's Mark and provides boons you NEVER had, in the "empty" levels at 9th, 13th, & 17th level where you gained no new features except for your Spellcasting improved into the next level. 2014: 9th level - 3rd level Spells 2024: Now featuring two additional Expertise. 2014: 13th level - 4th level Spells 2024: Now featuring HM's Concentration not broken by damage. 2014: 17th level - 5th level Spells 2024: Now featuring HM's Advantage. If you don't use it, you never had anything to lose. People really be getting mad at getting free stuff. Tasha's "Favored Foe" is here in spirit because it required Concentration to use, which is now translated into the HM's Spell. They've been trying to fine tune the capstone and the reliance of Hunter's Mark made "sense" but this is a bad capstone when standing side-by-side to others and that's okay. It provides the opportunity to multiclass.
They absolutely did give them buffs, I said as much in the video. The 2024 Ranger is unquestionably more powerful than the 2014 version. That doesn’t detract from the fact that there are multiple class features solely dependent on using a single spell. Saying it’s better than 2014 so it’s fine both misses the point and is a flawed way of evaluating something. There will be countless players who have never played the 2014 version so the comparison is meaningless to them. Just because something is good in comparison, doesn’t mean it’s good in isolation. Again though, as far as I am concerned this isn’t a question of power, it is more powerful than 2014. It’s a question of design.
@@InsightCheck You're right about the design of it. By design, it's a homogenized package of Hunter's Mark & Tasha's Favored Foe. Where instead of "Improved Favored- @ 13th, 17th, & 20th level" its "Hunter's Mark gains benefits." Personally, I'd've liked to have seen those features baked into the 1st level feature.
Not sure what the gripe is about rangers. My strongest build is a ranger. It crushes paladins due to melee flaw. There are a number of back doors to the concentration issue, particularly with use of magic items, plus if you want more Pokémon make a mildly suitable agreement with your DM. I suggest the iron flask. Otherwise maybe just cross class fighter and Druid, or play the green paladin… but let’s not dump on chop sticks just because we don’t know how to hold ‘em?
will probably let player have advantage on con save for hunters mark till level 13 and instead of unbrekable concentration just remove the need for concentration and (if someone ever play a level 20 ranger) just add the d10 and the d6
Ngl, feels like they should've just gotten rid of Hunter's Mark as a spell and fleshed it out more as a class feature. Would've fixed the Concentration bs, and it could've allowed a lot more flexibility for buffing the feature as you level up. Like for instance, it could've been cool to see the hunter's mark ability react to your chosen favored terrain(s), like maybe permitting the damage to be turned into Cold damage if you do the Arctic. Regardless of that though, the capstone feels insanely tone-deaf, especially when you look at how much they've buffed the other classes. I can't for the life of me rationalize what the team's conversation was in regards to the capstone. You cannot look at it without immediately comparing it to the other capstones like the monk's, who get a flat +4 to Dex and +4 to Wis, buffing nearly all of their abilities as a result. Meanwhile here, as everyone else has pointed out, we're buffing ONE SPELL'S POTENTIAL DAMAGE BY 2. As it stands, the Ranger looks like a class that can be outperformed by other classes like the Druid, Fighter, etc, no matter what and that's sad.
2024 ranger lacks the wide-eyed exploration flavour 2014 had. favoured enemy and natural explorer were cool concepts, they were just executed poorly, all they needed to do was fix the execution. merge the options into fewer, larger groups (e.g. Desert, Temperate, Tropical), and/or let the ranger re-prepare their chosen option(s) at the end of each long rest.
I think why Hunter’s Mark feels bad is because it’s one of the few things only a Ranger can do(without multiclassing or using feats) and there’s literally a better version of it in Hex and the class that has Hex isn’t even that stoked about it. Even if the math was better with Hunter’s Mark it just is so boring.
I'm seriously considering playing a fey pact of chain or blade warlock, hell maybe a combination of the two, and just calling it my ranger. Flavor wise, they aren't that different, and if I ever want to cast hunters mark, well hex is just right there.