This video is about shooting Level 3A Body Armor with 22 TCM R .22, Rem Jet, 9x25 Dillon, 400 CorBon, 40 Super .44 Magnum, 460 S&WMagnum and 500 S&W Magnum www.oaktreegunc... OAKTREE GUN CLUB
This is an older video, but I just found it so it's all new to me! I used to be all about carrying magnum handguns for possible street defense, but over the years several things changed my mind. First, I've now spent over 30 years in the medical profession and have seen first-hand more GSWs of various types and calibers than I can easily remember. Seeing how people arrive to an ER with different bullet, knife, and chainsaw wounds has really shaped my understanding of what is "needed" to effectively defend oneself on the street. By and large, the ubiquitous .22LR "punches" far above it's weight when it comes to inflicting virtually instant stop hits, and grievous wounds that are as often fatal as those produced by larger calibers. Not many rifle-wounds arrive to an ED because they tend to go straight to the morgue, as do most close-range shotgun wound recipients. Among the "common" handgun calibers I've seen some incredible wounds that should have resulted in an instant kill, but barely left the recipient phased - like a .38 spl LRN through the bridge of the nose that exited just below the base of the skull, just right of the cervical vertebrae causing no serious damage internally, and the person literally went home after spending the night in the ICU for observation! But what strikes me most is how many times I've seen people come in shot with a .22LR unconscious and in shock, and barely hanging on. Then, a few years back I saw the Ellifritz study comparing handgun round effectiveness and it all came together. It really IS all about where the bullet hits, not how big, or heavy, nor even whether it expands or contracts (pun)...it's purely what vital structures the bullet hits on its way in, or through. An expanding bullet that fails to hit a vital structure is no more effective than an FMJ in the same spot. A FMJ bullet that hits a vital structure is every bit as effective as an expanding bullet hitting a vital structure. An expanding bullet that fails to reach vital structures is ineffective, while a FMJ that passes completely through the vital structure is effective. The calculus is really that simple. Of course this knowledge won't stop the ammo companies from marketing their latest whiz-bang ammo, or government agencies from claiming some ballistic magic has occurred in the last 40 years to make the 9mm suddenly effective, pushing the .40 S&W to the side. The truth is, none are any MORE effective at one-shot stops than the lowly .22LR. There are some very notable shootings carried out by maniacs using .22LR handguns that support this fact. The only thing against the .22LR is its rimfire ignition, but having said that, I will be happy to bet on the round going bang versus not. This brings us to the .22 TCM and 9R version. Being that the lowly .22LR is as capable as the larger calibers, placing the same diameter and weight bullet into a centerfire case solves all problems and results in a handgun and cartridge combination that checks all boxes. As shown in the video, the TCM9R goes through TL3A like a hot knife through butter and once through, will reach those vital structures. Larger diameter bullets must deliver extreme amounts of kinetic energy to get through, and this means huge guns not even close to suitable for street carry unless you lug them around in a suitcase. Sure, a hit from a .500 magnum will probably kill by blunt force trauma, but that's a 57 ounce (unloaded) 5-shot revolver with massive blast versus a 25 ounce, 18 shot semiautomatic that is perfectly adequate for the task...equal in all respects to 9mm, .40, .45, etc., and better at punching through both soft body armor and autobody steel, and it does it within a highly accurate and controllable package that comes in substantially lighter than the same gun in 9mm due to the weight of the ammo. It's not hard at all to carry additional spare mags because they too are light, versus say, carrying a massive, .44 magnum revolver with spare reloads. Also, the practiced use of double and triple-taps with the .22 TCM9R triples the number of holes capable of reaching vital structures, and places as much energy into the target as single hits from the larger rounds. And one last fact is that even in hollowpoint configuration, the tiny .22 TCM9R bullet zips right through the vest and through thick plate steel. The "penetration factor" PF of the .224" bullet says it all, as it comes in around 12-13 versus average PFs of 3-5 for common handgun rounds such as 9mm, .40, 45, and yes, even 10mm, and .357 magnum. Given the right bullet those rounds can deliver better penetration, but again, this is expensive, special ammo, combined with large, heavy guns in the case of magnum revolvers that have limited capacity and harder to carry around. The .22 TCM9R is THE round to carry for street defense and beats out the 5.7 for velocity and smaller, better, more ergonomic, and CHEAPER platforms. The MAPP conversion barrel will drop into any CZ branded derivative of the CZ75, and there are inexpensive barrels for both G17 and G17, which are both ideal street platforms made better by conversion to .22 TCM9R. For those who handload, the 5.56x24 Rowell can be formed from TCM cases using a single die, trimmed to length, and allows the use of commercially available .224" bullets such as the Speer 40gr. Spire point with a thick jacket and small pointed nose profile, intended to hold together at rifle velocity, as well as the Speer 46gr. JFP.
Thank you for all the info and I do take it to heart. I have always been a velocity fan and have a 5.7 on the nightstand. The 22TCM is a round with a lot of promise but my Rock Island commander won't eject factory ammo. It will however eject my reloads.
Chainsaw wounds? Lol, holy sht! I know that most had to be accidental, but given the context of first the vid, then on to your comment, "accident" wasn't what my mind immediately went to lol. But, thanks for your "first-hand-knowledge" comment. Very interesting and informative. Glad you weighed in...and yes, shot placement is EVERYTHING.(and thx for the vid as well)
Thank you for your phenomenal analysis, data, information and opinion! Seems a Glock and the TCM9R is the winning combo! What is your opinion on Liberty Civil Defense 9mm 50gr ammo that does 2,000fps?
I'd love to see this test again with all ball rounds, since the hollow points are designed to dump their energy on impact and we basically screwed from the start. Love the content brother and would love to see test #2 w/o hollow points, but just my thoughts, I appreciate you either way my friend
So are you saying a ball round at 1952fps would have penetrated the armor? Would have been awesome to see, but I get it. You do the best you can with what you got. I was entertained none the less and left a like :) Appreciate the video.
Never did see the resilts of the 40 Super, but it being a hollow point, I'm pretty sure the IIIA vest would have stopped it, as we all know vests are more effective against hollow points than TMJs.
Do a 221 Fireball out of an original XP100. I also have an AMT Automag III and a Ruger flat top, both are 6” and chambered in 30 carbine. I’ve had those for decades and always wondered if they could. Ive always known my 460 would walk right through my vest. I’m glad I’m retired now.
Haven’t seen the 22 jet since I had hair. I once saw a revolver that fired that round and it came with six inserts that you could put 22 lr in them for practice. Wish I had bought it so I could prove it.
Jeffrey Kelley those that know it exists do. I know people that never heard of the 22 jet. I haven’t seen one in gun shops fo years. Thank you for confirming! I miss the revolver days! That knowledge is common to us cause we’ve been around a while. Thanks for reply!
Try NOT Doubletap. They're approx 10% down from Buffalo Bore & all other QUALITY ammo -- DT also overstates its true performance by approx 100 fps, in EVERY cartridge they make.
Accccch, also try bimetal jacketed -- I've seen those go thru (I think MrGunsNGear's video). Also, it's too bad they didn't make it a 7.62x25 Dillon (replace the 7.62 Tokarev that's quite aging (most manufacturers ceasing production) and only available in 1 gun (heavy, exposed hammer... not my style), AFAIK).
I thought so too. I saw this load (and I assume similar velocity) tested on IIIA before, and it was stopped. However, that test, if I remember correctly didn't use a proper backing, more just hanging in the air. Even at 2000 or so fps, I guess the low sectional density of an 80 grain .355" bullet and the softness of the copper hollow point bullet make it bad at armor penetration.
You forgot to mention the muzzle speed of the 22tcm r, which was the round I was particularly interested in learning the stats. It is a sweet comparison video nonetheless.
@keith mcdowell i want a rock island carbine and pistol in .22tcm for a farm set rifle for critters pistols for pricks who think they can rob farm hands
Hi Mr. Kelly I was happy you gave me a reply. My names Henry it's my wife's account. We reloaded the 5.7 today. Did 5.0, 5.1, and 5.2 800x hi skor. It seemed loader and faster, the Ejection seemed much faster. Does applying crimp to the round cause a difference to it. Had some primer seating issues with it being to far in. They shot next time around so I'll figure that out. We are hesitant at going higher because the rounds shoulder moved pretty far up. 40 grain varmaggedons are the bullet. Next test are the 35 gr. Ntx boat tails. Did you experience the same with 800x and did you apply a nice crimp and would it cause a needed to reduce the powder load. Thanks for your videos and it be awesome to hear your thoughts on this.
Davina Clark I don’t crimp. And a small rifle primer shouldn’t seat low. I have been using the 30gr Barnes now for 2 years 5.7 to 6 gr True Blue is my load
I'll set it so it doesn't crimp and try it. Maybe the the bullet wasn't seated right or the lacquer was stripped to much. The full length die seems so tight I hope it just needs broke in. Had to have a machine shop drill out a extra shell holder for my cam lock trimmer to. The seating die works great. Do you think the die will brake on or maybe there's a high spot peeling it off. I will try to brake it in maybe it just needs honed or lightly sanded. It seems this is truly a specialty round to be ironed out. I'll will be ordering the true blue. 800x is what my store carried. Thanks.
I think the reason that loading of 9x25 Dillon didn't go through, was because it was a hollow point, or the bullet integrity wasn't rigid enough. At those extreme velocities, the hollow points, even the Barnes TAC XP, weren't ultimately designed for anything beyond .380 ACP velocities. I still have confidence that other loading's of 9x25 Dillon offered by both Underwood & Double Tap will go through 3A, though this remains untested.
Chris_Gullett RCBD ammo has a nylon ball in the core. That, along with the fact they lie about their actual velocity, would likely prevent it from punching the vest.
Even not going through the vest, these bullets can stilldo serious damage to the body. Specially, when using hollow point. They can break ribs, stop a heart, or even crush organs. this is far more lethal than a small round that goes through, once you need to hit the target with extreme precision, in order tocause significant damage.
A holllowpoint would not increase damage through a vest. Whether hollow-point or FMJ, a round that gets stopped by the vest flattens out. And do you have any cite that shows that a round that does not penetrate the vest is more lethal than one that does? That does not make sense.
Last I checked, flame-throwers are "legal" in most states without restriction (at least there aren't any in my home state). I've yet to see any body armor that defeats fire (sorry...couldn't help it...it's my slightly "twisted" sense of humor).
+Jeffrey Kelley Gotcha. No worries man, thanks for taking the time and posting the video. Actually this shows why putting the armor on right can make a difference.
The vast majority of these rounds you would never see someone carrying specially as an EDC a couple some might carry as bear protection while hunting or hiking. Every since I seen the Tim Kennedy video on how he switched his EDC to the Five seveN I changed my EDC to the 22TCM cause it's much more in my price range and while not quite as good as the 57x28 it is close it will do a hell of a lot better then the 9mm I've been carrying with a 3.6 inch barrel
Man! If I go to gun broker and look that up my wife who I’ve been feeding since I’m 15 years old will be pouting six months she wants a new truck. I bought her a nice car she wanted but she invariably took my old truck. Now I drive around in this sissy car of hers more than I get my truck! Go figure! I’m about to pay off the car and it has low mileage. Maybe next year I’ll get a new truck.I might just sneak that 22 jet in and play stupid. She wouldn’t know it from my model 19 anyway. 😂. You my friend are a bad influence. THANKS! Gun lust renewed!!!
Very unlikely to be cmpromised. Depends on material (leaving Spectra/Dyneema in a hot car everyday is a no-no), UV exposure, etc. Kevlar is weaker when wet, too.
If you add additional shot plates and trauma plates and a class 5 ceramic plates....then the body armor has just went up. You can also add stab armor protection....as they use in prison issued vest....plus additional side protection....where normally exposed.....I have a custom 3A vest....with all the extras...if it is a matter of coming home everyday....the extra cost is worth it.
+weapondude123 Expired vests really don't make that much of a difference. Just like the "best by" date, most if not all expired vests perform as if they are new. What really matters is the type of use they took. Bomb blankets tend to be folded a lot and are more likely to wear out in half a year of real use vs a vest that stays rigid on a person wearing it daily for years. You could always send him in a new vest and I am sure he would test it for you. (serious suggestion, not sarcasm)
+Dave Smith I agree, I've seen 20 year expired tests still stop what they were rated for, it all depends on the abuse they took between that time. Also, you can get small trauma panels to test that come in different ratings.
