#30 - Saruman BEATS Down Gandalf! - Every Change in The Lord of the Rings 

Regarding the staff: In the book, the eagle takes Gandalf to Rohan, where he takes Shadowfax and rides to Lothlorien. There Galadriel gives him a new staff.

I don’t believe that Tolkien’s telling was “weak.” We learn of what happened here at the Council of Elrond as Gandalf was telling his part of the story of the ring. There is no other place in the book where it is mentioned. Jackson did not have to put that scream in there to begin with! Jackson cut out much more interesting parts of the book in order to put in the stuff that he and his people wrote. The actors said that they had script and scene changes daily!! When someone would come up with “a neat idea” they would try it! Probably there is no fight because Saruman was Gandalf’s superior and had taken him by surprise. Gandalf was trying to shorten his part of the story! Why would he put a fight scene in there? Did either of you read the books?? Perhaps Saruman was stronger in “wizardry.” Gandalf did not walk in there with sword in hand! Jackson’s movie looked great with all of the scenery and artfully made costuming but I despise what he added to Tolkien’s story. I understand that he had to cut parts out and perhaps change a few things but he rewrote half the story! He changed the very character of the heroes! They were too “good” for Jackson to be able to portray to the public. Apparently we cannot handle “good.” The movie was very enjoyable but it was not Tolkien’s story. I am offended at how Jackson cut out so much just to add his own ideas.

I gotta say I agree totally with Jonathan. I also hated this scene, both when I first saw it and now. The spinning and grunting and yadda yadda were all just a big letdown.

Gandalf break dancing just didn't do it for me. Tolkien didn't write "weakly", I think that he expressed the meeting of the two wizards in a hierarchical sense in that Gandalf still saw Saruman as his superior in terms of power and ability. Saruman had just revealed his treachery and Gandalf was effectively trapped in a locked citadel with armed guards. From a strategic point of view it would not make sense to put up a fight that, at that point, could not be won by Gandalf. Being wiser, Gandalf would bide his time waiting for an opening to facilitate his escape, that came through Radagast alerting the Eagles, who then discovered Gandalf and rescued him from the top of Isengard. I think that Tolkien had crafted this thread of the story well. Mike uses the confrontation of Gandalf and the Ringwraiths on Weathertop to highlight his point about Wizards using force. In that situation though there was a point to Gandalf resisting them as he was besieged at night and only had to fend the Ringwraiths off until he could escape at dawn when the Ringwraiths were weakened by daylight. He was also aware that not all of the wraiths were present and he wanted to draw as many of them as he could away from encountering Aragon and the Hobbits.

hehehe good fun debate chaps!

I disagree with Jonathan. It highlights the (new) realization by Gandalf of Saruman's treachery, and the animosity between Gandalf and Saruman on one quick segment. I thought the wizard dual itself was stunning. It took my breath away! And I read the books (Silmarillion, The Hobbit, LOTR) every summer for 10 years in my 20s and 30s before the LOTR movies came out, and I'm willing to cut Jackson a break. Jackson had a movie to produce, and he needed to have a short segment that illustrated the conflict. So I'm with Michael on this one.

probably not, but man it was super cinematic

I'm also not sure it was the best way to do the duel, but for the movie I believe they had to have a fight. And the Staff has some contradictions , it seems like the Maiar wouldn't need such devices , however it is clear when it is asked to be taken away and when Gandalf broke Saruman staff it seemed have an impact. So I'm going to say that it help the Istari access there Maiar power. Also I don't think fighting is at all out of character for Gandalf, reading the book I was always disappointed that there wasn't a fight, but maybe there was a fight and Gandalf just didn't tell about it.

Everything's sped up in the movies, and Gandalf is made aware the Nine are coming, so the urgency is turned up a notch. What ended up happening was a bit over-the-top, especially at the end, but something like Saruman commanding the doors to close and yoinking his staff away after a staring contest-like struggle of wills might've been a little anticlimactic. It seemed as though neither was too keen on killing the other, at least directly, so that could also explain why Gandalf at least wasn't laying about like he did at Weathertop or Zirakzigil.

I'm with Mike on this one; the duel between Gandalf and Saruman was well done!