when i see Haddonfield. look- haddonfield, tremendous town, tremendous. they tell me look, i see haddonfield and i see, you know, the american dream. they say its the city of comfort! beautiful people here, beautiful, and they're being overrun by these slugging killers. just awful, completely ruined. one of them told me, Entity, look, I said, she said, with tears in her eyes, look, you have to help us, you have to help us get these slugs out of here. i said slugs, of course, slugs you all know, are destroyed by salt. we have tremendous salt reserves ready to go as soon as i am in power. tremendous salt, made here, and not in china. by the way, did you hear Dwight is a big fan of a china? big fan he said. not me, the Entity. im not a big fan of China. big fan of nuclear.
and that horrible woman, she doesn't care, she hears people are getting slugged and she just doesn't care. Run plot twist she says, not every survivor has plot twist! and thats really the developers, sleepy bhvr, locking crucial perks behind their woke paywall. Sad! When i'm back in power, we're going to buy every survivor the nick cage dlc, and the killer mains are going to pay for it!
Yes. In my opinion, slugging with the sole intention of bleeding survivors out for 4-minutes with NO INTENTION of ever hooking them is toxic. There is a difference between slugging for pressure, slugging because someone cannot be hooked, and slugging someone in order to make people wait 4 minutes for the sake of it. I hope that makes sense.
This. Too many people just jump on slugging if you down someone and don't immediately pick. I've had matches with 2 boxes 2 beamers. I already know what the match is gonna be like. They immediately show me I'm correct. I down someone then go for the 2 of them nearby waiting to try and blind for the save, and end up downing 2-4 people before picking because they pressure both sides with beamers while the downed crawls to a pallet. They are already sabotaging the closest hook. I'm not gonna just pick and get denied for no reason. Then at the end they all complain I'm slugging despite the fact I had no chance of hooking if I picked. Then on the other side of things killers just slug to slug for absolutely no reason and let me bleed out along with the others and there was actually no reason. I've had it happen in solo queue at 5 gens. To be fair I've also had it happen where I'm solo and the other 3 are just there to bully, at which point it really sucks for me but I understand why at that point.
What's crazy to me is that this should be obvious but for some reason it isn't. Whenever the topic of slugging to death is brought up, it's immediately shutdown by people bringing up sabo squads, flashlight/flashbang SWFs, power struggle/flip flop/boil over gamers, etc. which is completely understandable in that context, but at the same time, how can you not understand that those are NOT the same people complaining about being unnecessarily bled out lol
Sometimes its more beneficial to just bleed someone out especially if they have no hook states and multiple survivors are around, ive had to kill survivors that way numerous times due to things like being on pallet, flashy save etc etc
"In my restless dreams, I see that town. Haddonfield You promised me you'd take me there again someday. But you never did. Well, I'm alone there now... In our 'slugging place'... Waiting for you..."
Hey Scott, heading in for my upper EDG today. Your advice about it being a super easy procedure has helped me keep calm about the whole thing so. Thanks.
@@ScottJund Update: The problem is something small and fixable, won't even need surgery. Thank fucking god. It was super easy like you said, getting ready for it and the IV and all of that was a pain in the ass but when they put the drugs in me I was out like a light and then it was over before I ever realized what happened.
The argument of don't group up when the killer is slugging doesn't really work when the act itself makes survivors group up to pick said slugs up off the ground...
I think jumping into a match with the intention of going out of your way to ignore one of the game's core mechanics just to deny other players the chance to, you know, play, is indeed toxic
@greenmogus6293 unless you bring specific anti-slug perks there's literally nothing you can do except recover and/or crawl somewhere. can't even do it at the same time without a perk. there's zero gameplay interaction there
@@fearlessflower6223 there's even less gameplay interaction when you get put on a hook. you just have to wait or let yourself die, so thats kinda moot. like he said slugging isn't something a killer goes into a game planning to do, its a tactic that is employed when the situation arises that survivors are grouped or are being greedy for saves
dbd is such a context sensitive game that questions presented so simply as the example always rub me wrong lmao. "is it toxic to slug 4 survivors" can mean anything from "as a nurse with knockout, deerstalker, lethal pursuer, and new predator" to "as an oni who just got a crazy pop of blood fury" and with no context but the presented it's impossible to answer one appropriately without neglecting the other
The problem is to entitled survivor mains they mean the same thing. The vast majority of people that whine about slugging mean killers aren't allowed to slug at all and if they get a down they have to immediately pick up.
Going into the match with a goal to slug everyone is stinky. Ending up with a 4man slug accidentally is perfectly fine and usually happens because of survivor missplay. But is it toxic? I don't think so.
yeah i agree if the situation falls into place where everyone is grouped up i have no issues with that type of slugging. its the plan from the start thats so cringe
@@SebastianBetancurNo, it isn’t. Just pick up against a wall. If they’re co-ordinated/ a swf and lurking then okay, but when all 4 are on the ground, just hook. They aren’t being toxic by bringing a survivor item.
@@GG-kn2se Well now you have three people who WILL prevent you from getting to a hook by body blocking you. And this is assuming there's a wall nearby. No, they're not being toxic. But if they're there and being obvious, neither are you.
Thing is, a killer can go into a match with this plan in mind and just bring 4 strong perks that require no hooks. Killer has A TON of strong options that require no hooks at all, like deadlock, corrupt, nowhere to hide, eruption, lethal, hex perks, etc. Survivors don't know the killer is going to do this, they can't really plan for it without nerfing themselves in all other matches. Like, are survivors just going to start going into every match without OTR, DS, Deadhard, Resurgance, deli, kindred, or others? Going over Otz's latest tier list just for a reference of strong perks, more then HALF the really good survivor perks do not function if nobody gets hooked, and survivors have almost no good options outside of unbreakable or wglf to deal with slugging in this fashion. I'm not saying I think it's better, we need to see this playstyle tested more, but I think it COULD be stronger.
The problem what your stating is none of these work in solo Que and you’re absolutely right but in team settings we can play against this quite easily and that’s the borderline problem with this game it’s damn near impossible to balance because you can’t effect one without greatly breaking the other and that’s why I like the idea of not nerfing things because if there’s multiple ways people can be good yes some people will play with meta intentions but they’re are other ways you can dominate and get a similar result but when all but one strategy is bad it hurts everybody
I think this just highlights the inherent weakness of survivors all being identical rather than having classes or specializations. A killer without perks still has something going for them, something to inform their style of play and way of approaching the game, whereas a survivor without perks has absolutely nothing.
“But it’s FUN to slug, it’s fun to feel the power of wasting people’s time for 6 minutes and making sure that nobody gets bloodpoints because it makes me feel really cool!” - Only slug killers. As a killer main that wants the survivors to have fun, the only time I ever slug is in situations like what Jund said where you have multiple people in one place. Even then I try to hook everyone as soon as possible to give survivors as much of a chance as possible. I like that playstyle because it rewards good play on both sides and hopefully makes the survivors feel like they are having fun.
stop the cap dude i main killer and every time a killer play chill and nice ,i get rewarded with constant body block , hook sabo , using animation to move under a palet ( very toxic mechanic abuse ) and so on ... in the end game u get teabagged , vault notification spammed and waiting 3 min in the exit gate finally in end game chat u get insulted for losing or winning doesnt matter So right when i play killer i slug hard to death the 2 last players if they never got hooked to avoid deliv and hatch i also slug and go for dead on hook surv
M1 killer main here (Trapper), and I agree with you not just on a fun level, but on a practical level. Best times to slug imo are when the opportunity presents itself with two survivors close to each other. Otherwise it's impractical as the other survivors can pick up the slugs as you're trying to get that 4 man slug and they're not bunched up together.
@@akramerraia871 ah yes take your suffering out on other survivors that potentially had no intentions of being toxic lol. its shit getting tbagged and trash talked but not every survivor takes the game that seriously as to sit and waste peoples time. you are just feeding into this toxic ass game
@@P3rtzel dude its obvious u dont play killer or u play only top boring nurse or blight, ur opinion is sooo surv sided and about me taking my suffering on others thats not correct because the majority of surv have the bully mentallity once they get the upperhand u r in for a really bad game (the game allow it to be) ,so i standardized my play style to the community and i only change it to a more chill one when i face new or chill surv.
I always find this kind of discourse around fair/intended play fascinating. There's always a percentage of players that will try to do everything they can to bend the rules as much as possible, only ever trying to push meta, and there's always a point where a developer has to step in and fundamentally enforce the rules harder, or just completely break the meta.
@@Namarot It's hard for me to place the blame on game design. I feel like it's more on certain players to not be so obsessed with exploits and winning, to the point where they do these things like holding the game hostage, or only play tactics that they know will just upset everyone.
@greenmogus6293 it all falls under the umbrella of meta. Things that are meta doesn't necessarily mean the best, most effective way to play and win, it also means that you know what is actually intended, but you deliberately play *around* that system, to take advantage of it. I'm not saying that people trying to grief are trying to win, those can be two separate things, but it's very easy for one person to do both because they know the meta well.
@@Namarot The degenerate strategies themselves are a result of design failures. Understand, we can only say this because we have the benefit of hindsight - I don't blame BHVR for making the mistakes in the first place, though I think that maybe they should be putting more effort into addressing them now that we're aware of them. If survivors keep getting perks and items that makes going for hooks risky, or allows survivors to get off the hook with limited/no penalty beyond increased hook count, then hooking survivors in general becomes a less attractive method of play as opposed to just slugging them and trying to keep multiple players downed. I think one thing is that DBD players *must* understand and accept is that the game is quite literally designed to be punishing. Either the survivors escape (usually while some survivors are distracting the killer while others are pursuing objectives) or the killer kills them - all five participants don't get to walk away happy, and there's a major issue with player mentality where "I didn't win" automatically means "bad game/toxic enemy players." Honestly, all the claims of toxicity are IMO people unable to grasp or accept this simple truth about the game. It's why these complaints inevitably and invariably boil down to "I lost because reasons, and that makes me mad."
@@BLK_MN Meta doesn't really have anything to do with toxicity, it's purely about efficiency of winning. If perks designed to punish/prevent hooking become meta, then killers will shift towards strategies that limit or avoid triggering those perks. If that means everyone takes a smoke break while 4 survivors bleed out (maybe the game could benefit from some system where it checks to see survivors have any means of recovering without assistance and then ends the game after 30 sec if it determines the survivors cannot recover?), then that's how it's gonna be. That isn't toxicity on anyone's part, that's just how metagaming works.
Great timing on this, just had a Billy 4 man slug as at 5 gens for a 2 minute match yesterday. It’s so sad what bhvr has done to Billy, he used to be my uncontested favorite killer to play against but it’s like the only Billy’s I encounter now are toxic and sweaty
I'm continually fascinated by the way the community ignores the fact that BHVR creates this game and CAN fix this problem. They have to invent all these rules and hoops to jump through to make the game good, instead of demanding that the devs fix the parts of the game that make it boring.
@@ScottJund While I agree with you on most of the of the video I just checked perk usage on nightlight and the top 20 most used survivor perks 5 were hook/unhook perks where only 1 was slug/dying state based. Unbreakable vs Dead hard, Decisive strike, kindred, we'll make it and off the record.
First game of chaos shuffle with friends when it came back we got a billy that refused to hook, would down you and leave you to bleed out Eventually after about 20 minutes of desperatley picking eachother up over and over we finally managed to get 1 person out. most miserable game i've played in a very long time, if he'd just hooked us the game wouldve been over and we all couldve moved on
The fact is that: most survivors have "off the hook" perks and not anti-slug perks, since even DH became a "off the hook" perk. It's a suboptimal playstyle (since its 4 minutes on ground to kill) but guarantees that off the hook perks wont be a issue. Liking or not, its an efficient strategy, specially considering deerstalker has very long range currently.
I'll list a couple strong counter-points I sourced from my favourite DBD content creator Scott Jund as laid out in his video "Toxicity in Gaming Communities and How to Fix It" "When I think toxicity I think really nasty shit that can only really happen outside of the game. I don't think anything you can do in the game would constitute that." "Grow the fuck up. It's a video game."
"They can win without slugging. It's unnecessary. Therefore I would consider that toxic". There's a lot of things either side can win without, that is annoying to verse and a huge detriment to the people they are versing. Exhaustion perks, gen slowdowns, gen progression perks, aura reading etc. etc. By that logic, that's all toxic as well. The real toxicity is people taking this shit too seriously.
Know whats fun in soloq? - when you try to separate from your teammates and not group up, but they just follow you around, and usually miss skill checks...theyre super helpful 🙄
That's why I occasionally use bond and other "selfish" perks. As a solo que, I'd often get 1 life. Dying on first hook either because I didn't get hooked until end game or being left on first hook because other survivors "Didn't want to alert the killer" I used to even run self-care (before Nancy) so I could avoid others and heal myself if needed. (Had gotten tired of chasing survivors for a heal or relying on med kits)
@@Hyperdisk Bond is the anti-sandbag soloq God send. Soloq often only get 1 hook. Generally left behind or ignored. So much so that Killers become a soloq teammate, when they see the trolling of the 3-man swfs
TLDR: 4 man slugging is toxic because it is highly unlikely there will be counterplay for it while picking up and hooking guarantees a chance at counterplay. 4 man slugging is intentionally done in bad faith pretty much always. It is holding the game hostage and should be a bannable offense. We can run numbers for this. There are currently 4 Survivor perks where you can pick yourself up from dying state: Unbreakable, Soul Guard, Exponential and Plot Twist. There are 16 survivor perks in a game. Let's assume, on average, in a 4 man slug scenario, that there will be 1-2 survivors with these perks for counterplay. So we have about a 1/8 chance or 12.5% to see someone get up without heals. However, in a 4 man slug we can probably assume the killer is just standing over everyone's body in a dogpile, so idk if there's any way to escape this in the first place without some insane outplay, and if you used Plot Twist the killer won't let you get away with it. Yes the mentioned perks can be used together for a better effect like with Soul Guard's endurance, but we will assume base level counterplay (1 perk dedicated) as a control group. Now there are, according to the DBD Wiki, 146 survivor perks. So we have a 4 in 146 chance of a survivor picking anti-slug in the first place. Then I would say Plot Twist isn't really anti-slug because you have to down yourself for it, can't let the killer hit you. So 3 in 146. Then let's talk Soul Guard. You can only pick yourself up with Soul Guard if the killer has a hex. So we have to assume the hex is active in this scenario which is already RNG based. The wiki again says there are 124 Killer perks, and 16 of them are hexes. Let's assume a killer picks only one hex for the build as a control group, giving us ~13% chance of getting to use Soul Guard this way in the first place. Then on top add the RNG for the activation or cleansing of the hex during the match (no real way to calculate this except by running games out of 1000). Then let's talk Exponential, which has the same RNG factor as hexes with Soul Guard. Chances it never got set up in the first place or was pre-emptively snuffed by the Killer or that the slugging happens out of range. So really the only way for a guaranteed anti-slug is Unbreakable. There's a reason it's such a popular perk, actual statistics show this perk is in play much more often than the numbers would say because this perk is the most reliable anti-slug. nightlight.gg/perks/Unbreakable says that it is used by 8-10% of survivors so we will use that figure. All of these figures combined mean, quite frankly, that if the killer does a 4 man slug, there is a less than 1% chance of the team having counterplay. On the other hand, picking up and hooking the four survivors guarantees a chance at counterplay with wiggling chances and hook spacing. So, yes it is toxic. It takes the agency of survivors away and makes them completely helpless for 4 minutes as they watch the killer mock them.
yk what i just realized? Buddy must be thinking: why is my human meowing at this thing all the time... should i help? Maybe i should do that when he isnt home... seams important
I had a game with a full prestige nurse with lethal who downed me 30 seconds after the game starts (skill issue, i'm aware). Everyone person was left slugged for ~2 mins until they downed everyone. They then deliberately left everyone slugged we almost bled out then only pick up at the last second. I reported them ofc, but nothing happened obviously. Ik I could've just dc and wait out the penalty but this kind off gameplay shouldn't even be allowed in the first place.
@@kainakrit9311 Well enjoy getting a ban for the false report, nice on you to clog up the report que that needs to be manually reviewed for action to take place, I am sure the literal cheaters who also legitimately get reported are happy you did that for them. Nurse can mass slug and I do that on my nurse as my main way to play her, theres nothing toxic about it, if anything I am giving the survivors MORE chances to interact with me and outplay me as I am making the area where we play in smaller by slugging. Just because you wanna complain about being a slug because of your self admitted "skill issue" doesn't mean I am being "toxic" I don't care about you, one way or the other, you aren't my friend or my ally, your just some random nameless nobody on the internet the game matched with me to fight against, just as I as the killer am to you, we don't owe each other anything.
I still remember the most epic slugging I was ever victim to when I was much newer to the game. At the start of the game, a Blight with Lethal came right at one of us. I tried to go and take a hit but he got the down within about 30 seconds. He then came after me and got that down. Someone else was right there trying to flashy in the most obvious way and he downed them in short order. He got the last down and I couldn't figure out why the last player never got anyone up. It turned out the killer was running Knockout and no one ever found anyone else. No one had Unbreakable or anything to counter slugging so we were done. That wasn't toxic at all to me. They took advantage of the situation perfectly. What was toxic was when they just followed a crawling survivor until everyone bled out. At least if someone got hooked they could have tried to Koby. Nope, the killer just waited until everyone bled out. We got outplayed for sure, but the insistence on waiting for 4 bleedouts with no hooks is toxic. I don't find almost anything in DbD toxic, but this clearly was.
>At least if someone got hooked they could have tried to Kobe but that's exactly why it wasn't toxic. if the killer picks someone up, there is a chance they might escape and pick up everyone else, and now they'd have 4 injured survivors instead of 4 slugs. if the killer wants the best chance of winning, the game requires that they leave all four slugs on the ground for the entire bleedout duration. this is not the killer's fault. maybe it would be more fun for everyone if the killer showed some mercy and allowed that chance of escape, but doing their best to make sure they win does not make them toxic.
The killer loses out on points and time for not hooking. It’s very easy to secure a 4k with four slugs while playing around any of the horrifying scenarios in which a 4% comes into play, while still wasting less time than watching survivors simply bleed.
did over 20 winstreak with billy recently on 4-5 gen left with only perk spies from the shadow, made it with slugging and im over 10k hours, but u see the problem right, if u dont make mistake as killers u will get downs left and right and build infinite pressure. also lots of maps are basically filled with dead zones.
This is a "competitive" game. There is nothing toxic in regards to winning, outside cheating. As Scott said there is counter play for all playstyles. It is only toxic when it comes from a place of bad intentions. If you are slugging someone with the intention to make it so they can't play the game, then it is toxic. Least fun game I ever played I was slugged and left to die my first down. Killer was using Third Seal, which never got found and Knock Out, on old Haddonfield. Nobody even tried to pick me up even though the killer was nowhere near.. Still that was their game plan so not upset. Just boring.
What I don't understand is BHVR's lack of consistency surrounding bannable behaviour, and to some extent, a certain double standard that exists. When people talk about a killer bleeding all 4 survivors out while humping and being a general a-hole, people always bat back with "Well ackthually, it's not bannable because it's not holding the match hostage 🤓" Answer me this, does a survivor intentionally sandbagging their teammates count as holding the game hostage? No - yet it is still bannable under GRIEFING. So please, tell me why Killers are given a golden ticket to grief to their heart's content without the same level of punishment. Yes, bleeding all 4 survivors out isn't holding the game hostage, but it's literally the definition of griefing so it SHOULD be bannable.
it's the killer's job to increase their chances of winning. it is not the survivor's job to decrease their ally's chances of winning. that is why one is griefing and one is not.
@@tasmium By that logic, if I am using a Sole Survivor/Wake Up build, then I am doing no wrong in getting my teammates killed in order for me to get a quick escape out the exit gates. Because I'm just increasing my chances of survival, and that's the survivor's main objective, right? Try again. P.S. if you're gonna bleed all 4 survivors out to be a toxic POS, at least just own it and admit that's what you're doing - don't hide behind "it's the Killer's objective".
theres definitely a big difference between slugging for pressure or other reasons and explicitly slugging to bleed out etc. as a huntress main, often I down someone, reload, get darkness revealed and try snipe someone with an aura. thats like 20 - 30 seconds and people may find it toxic but imo its perfectly fine
I get people being frustrated by slugging, but if all 4 survivors get slugged, it's usually because they made a series of really big mistakes. If they're doing it for gameplay reasons, it's not toxic. if they're doing it solely to be a dick, and waste peoples time by bleeding them out, it is. We can't just start categorizing everything that's "unnecessary to win" as toxic.
I had a match against Larry last night where he had put up a few cameras all around the map and then went teleport slugging, bleeding us out at 4 gens. Some killers don't even need survivors to group up, with all the aura reads on high map coverage killers, slugging is just super overpowered and only basekit changes will fix it. Still not as overpowered as proxy-camping, which can occupy 1 survivor and guard a 3-gen simultaneously.
Lmao I’d wager the majority of situations where people complain and say the killer is toxic is when the strategy is MORE effective or at least decently effective compared to the “usual playstyle”, especially when the killer has won the match. Which again shows the victim mentality of survivors more than anything and this toxicity is just another figment of survivor imagination.
Knock out, deer stalker, mind breaker on the unkown. Literal rage bait build. Once one person is a slug 🐌 the snowball can’t be stopped. You will keep getting downed, you will be waiting, and you will die on the floor. Possibly die IRL of boredom and frustration
Funny thing about the hook perks, as you said, there's a bunch of counters towards them with the main one being just not tunneling the guy off the hook. They're wasting perk slots if you don't tunnel! Also new leverage combined with gift of pain is an amazing counter to Resurgence and We'll Make It too, making healing under hook much harder to do (even though in most cases, survivors never should heal under hook anyway.)
@@theotherauthor740 You assume everyone is as big of a crybaby as yourself and DCs every time they are slightly inconvenienced by anything in the game. People rarely DC in my games. Have fun getting bigger and bigger DC penalties and 0 BP :D
Honestly, having a timer activate when four survivors are down and none have been hooked in X amount of time and give one or two basekit unbreakable would remove so much of the "toxic slugging", otherwise I'd say it's fine as is as a tactic.
Yes it is. However people will do it for that reason. Humans being humans. The real toxic thing is the fact BHVR has refused to remove it for ages and that one attempt they tried was abysmal. I honestly believe they 'like' certain toxic aspects of the game which is why certain things have remained as they are. Hell there are two perks which are otherwise awful for supporting this playstyle, yet it hasn't been touched in ages.
I agree. I feel as though blaming the player who slug, although valid, is only really treating the symptoms rather than the cause. The game allows it and even encourages it with perks like Knockout. So, the focus should instead be shifted towards BHVR if we actually want a change as a community.
Any time slugging is mentioned I get flash backs of old sabo days. Playing trapper against a swf group breaking all your traps, all the hooks, trying to flash light save, then getting hate mail about how toxic it was that I slugged and "Denied us flashlight saves"
Winbrain killers when they have to try slightly hard to win (fundamental impossibility) Anyways, this mindset is why I run the new inner focus and wglf. Want to slug and not dedicate? Allow me to ruin that, and it works surprisingly often.
5:02 true, but at the same time, when the killer slugs a survivor, they are literally wasting no time activating any slowdown perks. They can go straight to another survivor and start a new chase, whilst a third survivor needs to come to the rescue of the slugged survivor. If the killer has Knock Out, it will take even longer for the rescue to be completed. A killer who enters the match with the intention to slug is already prepared for that, bringing zero perks related to hooks and all remaining perks focused on chase only
It is just a playstyle choice there are Perks and strategies to counter Slugging effectively. I don't think that Slugging is toxic or detrimental to game health, unfun to play against YES I will agree on that but there are many plenty playstyles that are unfun, but that doesn't mean that they should stop existing or are toxic. Game is all about choices without it game is shallow all new tactics and strategies add to the game's depth. they could change this so that if all 4 survivors are downed and nobody has any unbreakable that bleed out time x2 or even x3 speeds up so it less annoying to go against.
@@ScottJund I do complain, but I don't call SWFs toxic it just playstyle its annoying and rage inducing but not toxic, even insults aren't toxic as long as it remains to in game.
@@ExDeity okay fine replace toxic with miserable, detrimental to game health, awful, any other number of words. your whole argument is on the subjective definition of toxic
@@ScottJund Toxic it's the main thing I disagree on this topic, does it feel bad to play against this tactic, YES but I don't care. Point SWFs feel like an ass to play against, but it is just a way to play a GAME If devs think it's such a big problem to game health, they will Nerf killer again. With 70 sec hook states even tunneling is nerfed so players adapt they look for different tactics is it so bad? Or do you want player base to stop exploring looking for new meta and to remain stagnant? It's about Choosing you now have almost equal playstyles hooking and slugging And you say that slugging is awful, miserable, detrimental to game health it's your opinion But what I see is an extra choice on how to play I don't agree that it's detrimental to game. I don't know how to write this, but I will try choices, playstyles even bad ones add to the game give it depth without choices game is like a puddle shallow I wouldn't want slugging to be nerfed because then one viable playstyle is gone less choices then back to the puddle.
@@ScottJund but the word we are using is TOXIC you can't just say change words because he didn't agree with you. What a childish way to argue. Will never understand why people get so damn butthurt over people trying to win on a video game. People have been doing that since video games allowed two controllers to be plugged in and those two to compete against each other. People have been competing against each other since the dawn of man. The ACTUAL rules of the game are being followed, but for some reason that isn't good enough for you people and you cry about rules that don't exist not being followed....it's asinine.
The thing that I absolutely hate most as survivor, even more than teammates killing themselves on 1st hook, is when a killer downs you and watches you bleed out. It's either take 5 minutes of bleeding on the ground while your teammates play the boring part of the game (doing nothing but gens), or you DC and build an accumulating DC ban timer.
I would say that survivors hook perks are way stronger than killer hook perks is a big problem. Even if a lot of those survivors are anti tunnel perks and you don’t just tunnel. Something like resurgence just guarantees a ridiculously fast health state especially if you just use the suture add on with a med kit and self heal Also that survivors have been getting a lot of game mechanics changes in their favor like 70 second hook stages which I’ve had matches where if it was not present someone would have hit 2nd. Sabo got buffed which encourages slugging. Now Unbreakable or Plot Twist does screw over slugging and I’m not saying slugging is always better it’s not. I just think hooking is too weak now due to survivors strongest perks having to do with getting hooked and killer is being punished for hooking while anti slug perks are rare in amount you have
It seems Scott "There's nothing you can do within the bounds of the game mechanics that's actually toxic outside of saying slurs in the endgame chat" Jund has had a bit of a change of heart on what the word "toxic" means.
eh its more an evolution of my opinion. if its detrimental to your own gameplay to play like this, the only conclusion is you are doing it to intentionally make other people miserable, which i consider toxic yeah.
10:00 The problem with this is all 4 survivors bringing plot twist, unbreakable or some anti-slugging perk is unlikely even if the meta shifted and requires them to bring perks whereas killer it is simply a playstyle to slug. They can adjust the playstyle if they choose so whereas survivors are stuck with those perks so if killer changes their mind and starts hooking or tunneling, then the entire anti-slugging meta goes out the window for survivors leaving them entirely screwed over with no alternatives to adapt to the killer's playstyle. Plus lets be honest, probably 80% of survivors are average to bad skill level-wise. Killer is easier than ever with constant buffs for the high mmr and then steamroll average to bad survivors. It's not good.....
You can apply that to any perks countering specific playstyle, like DS or OTC are almost useless if the killer doesn’t tunnel Most perks are kind of a gamble at this point because of the variety of killer powers, addons and maps
it's funny that even the arguments against purposeful 4k slugging just break down because survivors can just counter the whole strat with a single anti-slug perk, of which there are many. let alone the strat not even being strong in the first place.
Lol killers got 1823 ways to get survivors exposed, 182272516 perks to reveal their aura and you're complaining about saves when you don't have to even have to hunt survivors anymore because wall hacks and can 1 hit down them in many scenarios.
I think the ability for counter play is what also determines toxicity. So like the build survivor had a year or so ago where they could pick someone up in front of you and both of them get endurance. Like that would be toxic but like you get 5 mins and you can move slowly and the killer is losing out on guaranteed progress by hooking aswell in exchange for high amounts of pressure that may amount to winning faster. I think it’s a high risk high reward strategy. Similar to having a conventional job and starting a business. Conventional is very consistent money with small linear wage increases over the course of your career. While a business you are risking potentially making no money in your first year or so in exchange for huge profit margins in the future. As a tldr: it’s more of a play style as both have counter play to them which makes them inherently not toxic because of that. Imo
Serious question: why do people hate slugging? Like, let's compare it to being hooked: -You have more agency while slugged (you can actually move) -You can't die within 60 seconds because you got tunneled out (takes a minimum of 4 minutes to bleed out) -The Killer forgoes permanent pressure in exchange for chases (you know, the reason people play the game) -It's less effective than just hooking -Once you're picked up, it's harder to drop chase and tunnel, since you could've crawled anywhere -There's more perks that interact with dying Survivors than hooked ones (and they're typically alot more fun too) Like, the only thing that's worse is that it's impossible to kill yourself, and if that's really the problem for someone, they should just not play the game. Saying slugging as a win-con is toxic is like saying stealth is toxic. It's less efficient, less fun to play against, and unnecessary, as opposed to just pre-running the moment you hear the TR. It's not toxic, it's just a different way to play the game. You can not like it, but it doesn't mean it's toxic.
because you don't do anything for 4 minutes. even getting hooked to death is 100% faster, and people don't like getting one-hooked either. its not more complicated than that. you just do nothing. your arguments are mostly from the killer side.
@@ScottJund You're not doing anything on the hook either. That's what I don't understand. The only "issue" with slugging is that you stay in the game for longer. Isn't the Survivor meta to prevent Killers from getting them out of the game as fast as possible? Like, if slugging was just like being hooked for twice as long, I'd get that, but because you can be picked up from the ground as often as possible for those 4 minutes, it's like being able to be hooked 7+ times before dying.
@@ScottJundYeah honestly I'd rather be slugged with a chance to hide/be saved by my team than picked up off the ground and put on a hook and take a permanent strike 1 to my time in the game. All being on hook means is I'm checking my phone. At least if I'm on the ground I can recover, crawl to safety, aim for a pallet/power struggle, etc
@@mythmage8231 right but you aren't doing anything for half the time. that's literally it. its twice the time doing nothing. most of the times in these scenarios when you get picked up you are immediately downed again a second later because the killer is always pressuring the people doing the picking up. they arent actually 7 new chases.
4 Man Slugging to death? No hooks or anything like that? 100% unquestionably yes. Also what we consider toxic isnt always how strong something is: T-Bagging, Hitting someone on the hook, Pretending to assault someone on the floor as the killer etc are all toxic things to do even though they provide no comp advantage Not only is it incredibly boring, but it also ruins the game for everyone involved. Nobody is getting much BP, nobody is getting Challenge progress or Rift Fragments for it and on top of that you arent able to do anything about it unless you specifically decided to bring Unbreakable. This was already more than laid out as an issue with Onryo and thats why she got reworked afterall Moreover the badge system already answers this question, slugging is not an intentional thing the devs want you doing for wins otherwise theyd reward you more bp for it, but they dont
I've been wondering if this could just be a regional thing. I play on eastern US servers and I never really run into slugging/cheating that I see people complain about on Reddit or social media. On my solo Q games, I mostly see tunneling a lot. Hens and the content creators he usually plays with are mostly all on Europe. And it's a known thing that people on Asian servers have their own metas too so it could truly be a location thing. That's not to say it couldn't happen anywhere else, this is just an observation.
Hey what are your thoughts on slug perks like Knock Out, Deer Stalker & Hex: The Third Seal? It makes aura’s or survivors completely hidden on both sides.
Slugging then not hooking for the whole match to bleed out is boring and shit Slugging after downing someone and seeing another survivor right away, thats free pressure right there.
really truly i don’t think this would be a discussion if bhvr incorporated something like the face camp timer for slugging that maybe only activates when 3 survivors are down and/or when they’ve been slugged for x amount of time. i don’t know how balanced that would be. at least if they added something like that, the community wouldn’t have this discussion every two months.
As a Twins main, I have to slug but not until everyone bleeds out and I do hook in between because as you said in this video, going for a slug on the whole team can cost you a lot of pressure very fast. I think Hens intention in this poll was that hooking and slugging has a timer so it isn´t as different as many people say. However with slugging you don´t waste time to pick up and go to a hook. But is it worthy it to win like this? No, there are counters to slugging and going for a full slug is more risky than to go for hooks in between because survivors will die faster if you hook them. If you have the opportunity to end the game because there are three injured survivors at the same spot, hell yeah go for it but hook them afterwards :)
There's one mechanical issue regarding slugging: once you down everyone and they can't get up by themselves, you have no incentive to hook them. If you start hooking them one by one, they'll just try to kobe and the 11.5% chance will often result in at least one of them self-unhooking. By bleeding everyone out you're making sure there are no potential comebacks. I had quite a few situations where careless flashlight squads let me down everyone and then one of them kobed when I was hooking them and I had to spend even more time chasing people in a match that they already lost. If doing the right thing by ending the match faster by sacrificing is what randomly gets you in a position where you can lose the match again, then there's something really wrong with the whole mechanic and this should be looked at.
Bhvr gave them the tools and they used it Blame the devs not the community if they just simply sit down with their team talk and figure out something they Don't
To me, it’s still an issue of boredom. 70 second hook stages are an okay “break” from the game after failure, like respawn timers in TF2. Part of my issue with Scott’s analysis is that even if smart survivors can counter slugging, obviously many survivors aren’t smart. They still deserve a fun game that stays in motion. I’m still in favor of a slight tweak to the Basekit Selfpickup PTB. Like the last PTB which let Hyperfocus/CA give infinite Greats, it was not a perfect PTB - it had balance issues. But it kept the game moving. It basically said any strategy that relies on 60 second slugs just doesn’t work. 60 seconds was far more than enough to chase off a pallet/flashlight save.
Just like everything else in DBD, context matters. If I'm in a game where people throw themselves at me consistently, I take that as "it's fair game now." In addition, if I'm against a team that wants to be annoying versus playing the game, then yeah, people are gonna be on the ground for a while, at least until the first Unbreakable gets up, and then it's rinse repeat.
There is so many perks in the game at this point the killer and survivors should be able to ban perks, 2 bans for killer and 1 each for survivor. If the meta perks get banned then gives other perks a chance to shine and gives you a hint of the play style the killer might be.
8:53 Man, i can see an angle where the killers doing this start trying to say "It's actually not toxic because it takes more skill to do this 🤓" I just don't wanna be on the ground for 4+ minutes with no other option than to 'tab out and do something else'
I think in the case of "you don't deal with survivor hook-related perks but the downside is you don't benefit from killer hook-related perks either," that gets kinda negated somewhat by bringing other perks that either help you slug or offer utility or info or whatever. Like, yeah, you don't benefit from hook related perks, but if you’re not using hooks in the first place, then it's not like you were gonna be equipping those perks anyway.
The other major problem I think is that when you hook people you clearly know where they are via aura and when they get unhooked via loud noise notification. I'm sure every killer can tell you how they have forgotten where they slugged someone or can't find a slug. Your entire strategy is going to be based on that? People get picked up and you just have no idea where it happens or when unless you're paying hyper close attention; paying more attention than you would need to for an unhook. In a world where you're trying for this the survivor team getting a full reset is detrimental because your pressure is zero, compared to the same thing but you have 2 survivors on death hook.
From a strength perspective, I think just raw numbers make hooking stronger. If you hook someone and they're never touched, they die in 140 seconds. If you slug someone and they're never touched, they die in 240 seconds. If the person is picked up or rescued, and you down that person again, you now have to down them again! Once you do, if they were hooked, they now die in 70 seconds - saving you between, say, 60 to 1 second on the hook timer. If they were slugged? They still die in the same amount of time as before. Yes, there are arguments about anti-tunnel perks, but like you said, you just see a rise in anti-slug perks instead! WGLF, Unbreakable, Plot Twist, Soul Guard, that one boon, etc. Slugging is good for pressure if survivors are grouped up, since it allows you to potentially get an injure or a second down (or sometimes even a third one), allowing you to potentially threaten to snowball, but 4 man slugging just wastes everyone's time, and isn't even stronger! If slugging was the most powerful tactic, Twins would be the top killer--
5:30 I don't run any hook related perks on Pyramid Head, Oni or Demogorgon. I don't use slowdown perks mostly, either Ruin or Surge sometimes, and I just play with very chase/fun perks. On Oni it's Monitor and Abuse + Infectious Fright and Nurse's Calling or an oblivious perk, on Pyramid Head I run aura perks and if I'm ever gen pressured I tunnel someone out with cages, and on Demogorgon I play a hex build with Devour Hope so it's often 1 Mori kill, sometimes more. It's faster, more intense game, with less slowdown, make sense.
The problem is that slugging is way more fun than playing the game normally, you get constant chases and downs every time, feels like you actually have a threat on your hands
Feels like the inciting incident was "survivors arent left on the ground often" which became a sort of "go play civilization" when you're on the ground for 4 minutes. The playstyle is all risk, all reward; and thus turns the game from dbd to a binary "did you remember to spread and/or bring the correct perks" check. Similar to trying to triple hook someone from the start, but even more extreme because you're risking 100% of your progress if you're not accumulating any hook states. (also similar is how nurse turns the game from dbd to the nurse game... are we ready for that conversation yet?)
Yes it is toxic, and there should be some basekit Unbreakable after like X minutes, lets say 2-3 on the floor, that activates and lets you pick up yourself. Or smth of the sort. The killer should be pressed to hook. We waited for years to get a basekit Borrowed Time when off the hook, time for a similar thing against 4-man slugging. Solo queue is miserable for 4 man slugging because just running Unbreakable is just so rarely useful and then its not often enough. But you don't know if others brought Unbreakable/For the People/etc
crazy how I recently brought up slugging as a wincon and suggested it was toxic when people were talking about DwichaelJackson and people in the comments did not like that since he's usually if not always a chill guy. people can be chill and well meaning but it's evident that toxic actions don't have to have the intention behind them to be toxic.
Honestly I don't think its toxic aslong as you're not doing it with the intention of leaving everyone to bleed out afterwards. Killers like Freddy, singularity, and oni however are different cases. They actually BENEFIT from slugging more than hooking due to hooking completely stopping their power and needing to be activated/applied again.
Slugging for pressure or slugging because there are survivors nearby as a means to prevent flashlight or pallet saves is not toxic. Slugging all four survivors and causing them to bleed out however IS toxic. Wether slugging is toxic or not is dependent on the circumstances and context.
I also think there's a difference between four man slugging and slugging for pressure. Four man slugging is cringe and four man slugging into a bleed out just to waste everybody's time is a dick move. ETA: everyone wants to complain about dcs but then do shit that make people want to dc. Nobody wants to be on the ground not playing the game every single match
one kind of slugging i actually enjoy as survivor is when boon exponential is next to n exit gate and everyone keeps going down and reviving themselves trying to open the door and not be the one killed
In my games, I get slugged just about every game for different reasons. Mostly because the killer sees someone else and drops me to go for them and then I bleed out because I'm forgotten by the killer and others. I've had a few games where the killer didn't hook at all and just slugged then mori the last one. Seems to be the norm now to slug but also tunnel. 85% of my games, someone is tunneled out at the start of the game. Hell, had a game with a friend and I was not only tunneled out, for no reason besides being the first one found, when everyone else on the team tried to help, the killer just kept coming for me. They would hit the others but go back to chasing me. They even downed someone, but kept going for me. And after I died, the killer just went to the basement and did nothing else. Very rarely do me or my friends (playing with me or solo) have any good games anymore when all the killers wanna do is slug and tunnel. I don't play a lot of killer because I'm not very good at first person games, but even when I do play, I can still get a 4k without slugging or tunneling so people who are good as killer, I don't understand why these two things are a "valid strat" And to be clear, I only have perks from the base 5 killers because those of the only ones I have leveled. I don't play enough killer to see a point in leveling all of them xD
I had a dredge running a build strictly to slug. Knockout, face the darkness, sloppy and infectious freight or something. And for real just slugged a person and pseudo proxied unless he saw someone. I can’t let the person bleed out as that’s cringe so I’m in a catch 22.
This is why I was an advocate for a nerf to Nurse and Blight to get them in check and then add a 40 seconds recovery timer with infinite pick-ups. I am never slugged skillfully, very rare for a 4K and almost always just to be toxic. I am PERKLESS unless killer don't tunnel, camp and slug. However I have to run the same 4 perks so in case they do that, my experience is less miserable.
I actually met a dude that played like this back when bully squads were at their peak. He would run that perk that hides the auras of downed players, and as soon as it became clear the survivors were on comms he would just walk over and start smacking a gen telling the squad to hurry up and get out. Pub stomping in the most toxic way ever. To be fair bully squads had no affect on him because he didnt bother to play against any squad at all. This whole game is just a toxic cess pool, entertaining to watch from the sidelines and laugh about but miserable to play. On a side note, I find it so odd that some of the content creators with my favorite personalities play this game.
Since when is toxic just about what's stronger than normal play? Stuff is toxic for the game and the community when it ruins the gameplay for either side.
Scott-style videos are great because a tweet like this will never explain the situation correctly and will always attract negative attention because people perceive it as something else
I consider it toxic if the killer has other options. If the survivors are doing something like grouping up for a flashlight save or sabo-ing hooks all the time then sure 4 man slug the hell out of them
Except the killer ALWAYS have the option not to bleed out 4 people. Sure, you can slug them until they're all downed, but if you choose to leave them to bleed on the floor you really have no excuses.
On the opposite side of this discussion. Is it toxic for survivors to have full anti-slug builds, 4 oaks and map offerings with the intention of never letting the killer hook them or slug them? Because if the killer 4 slugging them is toxic then that must also mean that the survivors having the intention of doing the exact opposite of that is also toxic.
