I'm a value shopper, so the most interesting thing here is the WoodRiver Green chisels. Ranked at #9 overall, with the #8 best price ($11/chisel). I might be looking into a set of these and replacing the handles with some ash I have sitting around. Great job putting this data together!
James I know this is a little older video now but I come back often and rewatch love these spread sheets that you do some people may not realize how labor-intensive and costly it is to put one of these together I feel thank you is really not enough kind sir but thank you very much for sharing these! Your to kind!😊
Can't thank you enough for the 400 hours you dedicated to this, while still posting other great videos on a regular basis! This is truly an amazing study and especially helpful giving us the ability to sort your empirical data with our prioritized parameters. I think a lot of people overlooked this feature on your first version and that is what makes this so valuable to me. Also important to understand that there were about 15 chisels that are all very good. That's why FEEL is so important and also subjective.
Oh man James, you are so right (wright), I almost choked when you knocked Socket chisels and stated “I want a good tang.”. I have to agree; there’s nothing like a good tang! Thoroughly appreciated the incredible amount of effort and time you put into this. You are an awesome cross between scientific method and hilarious professor. I Enjoy every second of your classes; thanks Teach! -CY Castor
This will stand for the ages! A durable archive of relevant testing data plus customizable weighting to reflect personal preferences and individual working styles. The word "amazing" is often overused. Not this time. You've created a really amazing body of work. Thanks so much, James.
One thing that might be useful to know: 1-2 times per year, the Wood River Green Handle set goes on sale for half price, so you can get the set of 4 for $19.99. If you're not in a rush to get the set ASAP, it's a pretty darn good deal with all of the data James has presented.
Nooitgedagt is Dutch. They used Swedish steel a lot though. pronounciation: nooi sounds a bit like noise with the s replaced by a t. Ge is the infamous dutch g, like in the Scottish Loch. The dag 'a' is like the 'a' in watch I guess.. I guess if you try to pronounce 'Noitgedagt' in an english way it's acceptable cause you guys don't do our g's. If you're ever in The Netherlands, I'd love to show you around the Nooitgedagt Museum in IJlst (Friesland).
I watched this one first and then went back to your protocol video. I love it!! You are definitely giving Patrick Sullivan a run for the money. I spent my whole working life on the technical side of things and data was king. Thanks for the great work.
Thank you so much for doing this. I was looking for a good set of inexpensive chisels as I am new to using chisels and this was the only trustworthy place that I could find chisels wouldn’t cost me $50-$100 apiece that were recommended as good chisels. Green handle wood rivers it is for me and maybe I’ll replace the handles.
Fantastic vid James. The hours you put into this was phenomenal. I commented on your other Channel,that I had some Marples chisels that a friend who was a Brilliant blacksmith retempered for me, they were terrific. But he was a craftsman, Full five year apprenticeship, like me as a mechanic. But he specialised in retempering tools for various tradesmen. And as he said. Everyone has a different need for their tools. Sadly no longer with us.
Wow - thank you. I dig deep into the spreadsheet, did some sorts, conditional formatting, et cetera. From this amateur's POV, no major surprise. But variability is an issue, which is probably why the one Richter I got was a disappointment (many people say positive things with this). The only other surprise to me, was as you stated the L-N. As I am often honing my chisels and lot of my work in local Black Cherry, maybe this is why my ranking is a little higher. In my personal batch I have diversity: 1980's Blue Marples, Iles, Blue Spruce, Pfiel (hard to get), Two Cherries, Bergs, LV, LN.
I bought three narex richters in the sizes i use the most last year based on your tests and they are amazing. Big problem of mine used to be the handles, on most chisels felt too chunky, but the richters were right on the money. I got a cheaper set for the rest of the chisels sizes i use, but thanks you for your work
Interestingly, if I rebalance the objective measurements a bit for my weighting, and wipe out price and feel (on the assumption we could have completely different opinions), the rankings don't change much, especially at the top! Good to know, since I've been eyeing the Narex as a good price/performance value for a while now. I have the Irwin Marples blue handle (maybe an older style, though?) that were recommended as good for cheap, but I am less than $50 in for 1/8" to 1" in those, so they were kind of always intended to become beater chisels.
In issue 200 Fine Woodworking for 2008, a large test of chisels was carried out. Narex Profi Standard took first place. Has the quality of workmanship really dropped that much, or maybe it was necessary to remove more material during sharpening to get to metal with the correct structure. The finished chisel is subjected to isothermal hardening and the cutting edge most likely overheats.
A lot has changed but that test was very subjective. I tried very hard here to get rid of any subjective observations and create tests there gave an objective number. That way the data can do the talking rather than my feelings.
Thanks for the work behind this, makes me feel better about my choice. After seeing this and playing with the data...I am glad I bought the NAREX Richter. I planned on the Narex Standard ones. I was contemplating IBC or Woodriver, but could not justify the price.
What a clever and enjoyable test! Thanks for putting in the many hours and presenting it in an entertaining way. The durability really shows how tough these modern alloys are, but I'm glad those old Swedish high carbon steels showed out well : ) I was quite surprised the keenness of the high carbon steels didn't outshine the alloys initially, but it makes sense given the consistent sharpening technique. I personally love Japanese, chisels, so of course I'd love to see more of those. There is a huge range of quality among them, especially among White #1 steel due to the difficulty in forging it (it's often more expensive than the blue paper steel despite less additives). Many professionals in Japan prefer white paper steel hardened to 65 or greater, but the 62 has become more common to take more of a beating like western chisels. The hardness lends itself to a slightly different technique where binding of the chisel in the wood is avoided.
Wonderful job with the videos, spreadsheet, and coming up with good test methods. This was a lot of work and is much appreciated. I will be purchasing a new set based on your reviews. Keep up the great work!
Ok, now I finally get the sheet. Unfortunately the chisels I bought in my ignorance at the start (bahco red) didn't fare too well in your test. But the good news is (a) i could have done quite a bit worse (b) i now have an 'upgrade' path (Christmas next year or birthday or 'just because.. ;) ) (c) i now know that i need to sharpen them more regularly. Thanks for all the work, now go and share sheets with your wife, rather than your patrons ;)
This is phenomenal thank you for doing it. Resorted your spreadsheet (removing out of production and keeping price value at 1 but adding limit of $50 per): top 3: Veritas PMV11, Woodriver socket, Narex Richter. Unfortunately, Veritas is out of budget and Woodriver doesn't make 1.5" wide (I'm odd for wanting one).
You missed your calling as a statistician... I used to do programming for statistical analysis, and I can say with certainty that you did an exceptional job with this test. 👍👍
Thanks for the Aldi Chisel sets again James. I'd really appreciate it. I use it every time I do hand work. My dovetail is getting better every day. Practice really makes you better. I'd renamed my channel to Wooderful from RamChickPig. Also Happy New Year brother!
The Berg's don't like a 25deg edge. They get really sharp, but tend to roll if you use it hard with a 25deg. I've got like 200 chisels (I have a problem. I know) The only chisels that I didn't feel like were usable were the really cheap department stores. I still use my blue handled Marples for doing the rougher stuff because of their thickness. All other delicate stuff is really done with two Bergs, a Ward, a Marples and sons, and a wide Jernbolaget. Not because they are particularly better, but because I am used to the handles.
waw ! what a test ! thx Actually the Narex premium (8116) is the same steel as the profi but it's different in the handle as you've said but also in the blade geometry, their edge is finest.
Ha! Has to laugh. When you first started to talk about 20, 25 and 30 degrees, I thought, "Why is he testing at different temperatures?" It wasn't until later I realized you were taking about the bevel angle
Thank you for that great market analysis, review! Two comments: The Aldi chisels, advocated by Paul Sellers were made my MHG Tools in Eastern Germany as far as I know. They have a series of very defined chisels for a competitive price (nearly ready for use, thin sides good for dovetails). I like the company being a small family run one. I am using their refined chisels and set of 6 was around 100 Euro I think. Paul has some blog posts on the MHG chisels. The Narex Chisels are cheaper in Germany it seems (Fine Tools, Meyer Tools). Around 30 Euro per chisel the premium ones.
There are always suprises, in both the good and the bad. I am suprised how well the Woodriver chisels held up, and suprised how poorly the Two Cherries did. Personally I don't care for the Narex Richter, the handle is too big and bulky. I bought a 1" chisel and the back was badly rounded from all of their polishing, it took over an hour on stones to get the back flat to the corners, never again. There are of course other chisels I would like to see tested. And I understand the comment about there being a lot of variablity on vintage tools, but it would be nice to see the Stanley 750 and the Marples blue chip, from England added to this list.
Thanks for spending the time to do this. It is a lot of work. Six years ago, when I didn't know anything, I bought a brand with a reputation for good chisels. Their score, using your weightings, was around 200. My take on all of this is that there are a lot of good chisels out there that one can own. I also tend to agree with you in that how it feels in your hands is likely an important factor as I probably have chisels in my hand more than any other tool. I almost see your data as telling us which ones to avoid rather than which one to get. Make sense?
For chisels that were previously tested, are the samples in this test new? Also, I can't thank you enough for the detailed work that went into this test. Well done!
What a monumental project! Great work. I’m tempted to play with the spreadsheet a bit… One challenge that I foresee is the subjective rankings like “feel,” since it’s not just about the weighting you give that factor. Feel might be as important to me as it is for you, but I may give a chisel a very different ranking - for example, if you love the balance of socket chisels and I do not, that’s going to affect the feel score. However, unless I actually handle the chisel, I’m not going to know how I would rank it! That said, the objective rankings are independently useful and you could plug in numbers for the subjective factors when visiting a store or show where you can handle the chisel. Also, I don’t see a column for aesthetics! A plastic handled chisel could be 10 points beyond your top choice and I probably still wouldn’t buy it. :)
feel free to make a copy of the sheet and have fun. I have had several who have imported the data into their research software to create some interesting comparisons and graphs.
I dumped the feel stat all the way to 0, and the Narex Richter was still on top. Sadly, the two kinds I own (aside from a set that isn't listed at all) are both right smack up on the bottom still...
I'm looking for new chisels :) Guess I'm going to settle with the Bahco 424P-S8-EUR set. It is right around the 100€ mark in Latvia. An Irwin set is much cheaper, but I have doubts about the quality.
Thank you for all the effort, this is such a great resource. I was very surprised at the Narex actually. I have a blue steel and can say it has chipped a bit on me, but my white steel set is super keen and never chipped... may have to try one of them Narex though, would be good for old grit filled wood or and those super hard tropical species.
Wow, quite an amazing feat, James! Thanks for all that effort AND then making the data available to all, free of charge... that's something almost unheard of these days where nothing (almost, obv) comes free. But this leaves one question to ask: now that all that is done and behind you, when are you going to do the same thing with saws? ;-) I'm sure you aren't looking at taking on another big test, but in all seriousness, when you are ready, saws would be even more helpful I think... Of course you'd have to break them down into their categories (dovetail, carcass, panel, handsaw, etc.). That's another where "feel" is likely going to be very important, but there are other variables affecting performance that might preclude an obvious choice-by-feel... and including a few Japanese saws might be interesting, too... Anyhow, regardless of whether you take me up on the suggestion, thank you very much for all the effort you put in and for providing all the data that came out of it. It is much appreciated!
Thanks man. The problem with saws is there only as good as the last person who sharpened them. So testing a saw is just testing the last person to sharpen it. They all use the exact same steel and they all have the same durability. So usually when I pick a saw I pick it by the handle and how comfortable it is. Unfortunately, comfort isn't something you can really test. It's just individual preference.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo I understand what you're saying, but isn't that almost where you started with chisels? It comes down to feel more than anything... and if it was sharpened well it'll work well. But to your point, I guess any saw review would really only be testing how they perform "new from manufacturer"... some are balanced differently, some have bigger or smaller totes, higher/lower hang (part of "feel" as you said), there's also different amount of set or TPI, smaller teeth to start, longer blades, tapered saw plates, etc., but you're right to a degree... after a few sharpenings most of the saw plate differences will likely be negated, as there are very few ppl that know how to properly maintain set and tooth geometry, etc. Anyhow, it was just a thought... maybe subconsciously a way to justify another saw purchase that I do not need...lol
We need someone at that works at Aldi to try and figure out what happened to these chisels. I believed the amazon ones like the Grebstk could be from the same manufacturer since they work so well, but this data seems to contradict that. I know Paul Sellers likes to talk about the MHG standard chisels and say they're as good, but they are more in narex standard sizes
Brilliant job and you've probably set the standard for all other Chisel Tests in the future. Thank-you for the amount of work you've put in to this and I'm guessing you started with a full head of hair on the first day of testing?
From my experience with narex (basic) chisels, using a honing guide produces an edge that is very prone to fracture when chopping mortises. When sharpening by hand, the chisel transforms and becomes much more resilient, a slight camber to the edge makes all the difference imo. Adding that to the test in a reproducible way may not be feasible but I think 01 steel really benefits from that type of sharpening and perhaps other types of steel. Awesome test though, I'm looking at at set of those richter chisels, :P.
Hum, that's a very interesting comment. Have a few old cheap chisels and looking to get some proper ones and was looking at the Narex basics (can get a set for the cost of one Ricther). Can't imagine how to do that sort of test in a reproduceable way.
@@lynxg4641 Trying to follow up on this, I think my comments with links are getting removed. So after thinking and reading a bit more, it seems new chisels can suffer from a fracture prone edge initially because of either heat treatment issues or decarburization (google that for more info). So the hand sharpening method probably doesn't matter, however new chisels used in the test could suffer from this issue.
@@mercoid sure, no problem, let me know the tracking number when you send them ;-) Otherwise, most people don't own mortising chisels and just use regular bench chisels when they need to cut a mortise. Heck most casual wood workers I don't think even know that there's chisels made specifically for chopping mortises.
Thanks for all the work. Ive commented before on your videos about this and Im probably starting to annoy you but it would be great to see unicorn bevel vs straight bevel test on chisels. Especially to see how a cheaper chisel with a unicorn bevel stacks up against an expensive chisel with a regular straight bevel (in terms of durability)!
Hi great video. Really interesting to see your comparisons and the data. A lot of hard work. FYI the Nooitgedagt is a Dutch company that used EA Berg steel but were manufactured in Denmark so are Dutch not Swedish chisels.
@@Shefton1 Ok nice to hear you are happy with it. Some colleagues of mine used to work at the factory in IJlst. They told me they used to make really shitty tools in the end.
Love your tests. I have an idea for a test. There is a theory in woodworking that heat treatment for chisels is not uniform and can leave the initial edge more b
Premature posting. …leave initial edge softer or more brittle than the intended heat treatment. So it might be interesting to grind a new chisel down a bit and retest.
I actually found that to be the case in the initial test. I had to make sure that all of the chisels have been ground back past the tip. The problem is when they heat treat the tip is so thin that it gets up to a higher temperature and will often "burn." I ran into that on the first test and some of the cheaper chisels and found that they were chipping far more than I anticipated so I had to grind them back a 16th inch or so and then got to a more mellow steel.
Soooo, were any of these Mortise Chisels, or do you have a separate test for those. I ask, because I couldn’t find a Narex Richter Mortise chisel. I could be missing something though.
The test used all bench chisels as most of the companies don't make a mortise chisel version. And no lyrics Richter does not make a mortise chisel. But if you do find a mortise chisel with the same brand as any of these they're generally made of the exact same steel.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Thank you very much, I really appreciate the response. I actually asked this because I have a narex standard chisel and it was driving me crazy how quickly it would lose its edge. I was considering getting the Richter ones in the hopes that they would be better, but was thrown for a loop when I thought they had the same steel. Glad I misheard and was wrong. Thanks again.
Hey bud, I was curious about which Japanese chisels you tested, but when I click on the link to the white steel chisel it brings me to a listing for an SK5 chisel - is that the correct link? PS: if you want to test more Japanese chisels let me know, I've got a bunch including some HSS chisels that are a nightmare to sharpen but stay sharp-ish forever
As an Test Engineer I have more questions than I can ask here but I will touch on a few things. Did you use any testing standards such as ASTM? You should know that there is variability even in today's chisels and you even touched on it when you said that you were surprised by the difference between the two chisels that used the same steel and just had different handles. Did you do any error estimates? Did you do anything to ensure that your wood test samples were uniform? It would have been good to explain what you did to determine your results. Thanks
I cover a lot of that in the other videos. But there is no standard test that I have found that would give the data we are asking for. Yes, there is great variability in the same steel it tempered differently. That was part of an earlier test. All of the wood samples tested were from the same stick, at the same humidity and temperature,
The problem with testing antique irons is there was a much greater variability in quality. And testing. One is not representative of the whole. If I could get my hands on a collection of them it might be worth seeing what the average is.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Ahhh, so Narex Premium is a line that was not in the test. Having only one other Narex offering I assumed that was the 'premium' variant of the standard. See folks, this is why assumptions are bad mkay. Edit: being the same steel it would be wasteful to have on here, so that actually makes complete sense.
The Nooitgedagt chisel you've got there is actually from a dutch toolmaker instead of a swedish company. It might be confusing because on most of them from the second half of the 20th century have the inscription 'swedish steel' on the back. You can identify their chisels and plane irons by the little crown stamped into the chisel. Besides chisels Nooitgedagt made planes, mostly wooden and some bailey pattern planes, measuring tools and other woodworking related gear. With the exception of the last years before the company went bankrupt all of their chisels and plane irons are laminated. Here in the Netherlands chisels and other tools from them are pretty common on the secondhand market. They stay very sharp for a long time and have an amazing feel. If you ever find one on the other side of the pond, go for it.
Is the swedish chisel made by Nooitgedagt? Because that is a Dutch brand, very high end. It did look like my Nooitgedagt chisels but I couldn’t really tell by your way of speaking. Great video by the way.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo as far as I know Nooitgedagt are Dutch chisels, but they use Swedish steel. So kind of like how some knife makers in the west only uses Japanese steel for instance.
Nooitgedagt was indeed a Dutch brand that used Swedish steel. Now it is part of 'Record'. So I guess results from new chisels will not match what James measured.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo For all the newbs out there, like me. 1. select the column you want to sort on (probably D) 2. at the top, select DATA -> sort sheet -> sort sheet by column D (Z to A)
Are chisel steel like hand plane steel and only an inch or two is tool steel forged on to less quality steel? Thanks enjoyed the video and all the time and work that went into it.
Most all modern chisels and most all antique chisels are a single piece of steel that's hardened. Also, almost all plane irons made in the last hundred years are a single piece of steel. Is hardened. Only antique plane irons and Japanese chisels are different layers of steel laminated. There are a few exceptions to that but they are very rare.
Hello, interesting video as always. I am personally using MHG short chisels mainly because I like the feel (They are somewhere in between full length chisels and butt chisels) and they are affordable. I would personally like to know how they performed in terms of durability, if you are interested in testing one of them I may be able to get one shipped to you if you're not I'll totally get the fact that it might be a little too niche to be interesting for anyone but me !!!
Those are on my list to test. But I don't plan on doing another test for another year or so. I try and wait until I have a bunch of them to do rather than pulling out the whole setup for just one.
Based on the results, what is your opinion on the most durable & best overall bevel angle to sharpen the chisels at? I’m looking at woods no harder than pecan/mesquite and typically white oak, mahogany and cherry.
Well, there's fitness for purpose- I have a couple of Stanley chisels for rough carpentry work, and it doesn't matter if they are dropped or left in the rain. But if this to to identify the best chisels for finer woodworking, then this test is like determining the top pro tennis players by analyzing the stats of those in the low 200s and some from the local rec center. The top 100 spots would go to Japanese chisels.
This is the how to channel. Wood By Wright How 2. I also have an easy watching channel with less teaching and more just watching the work happen. That is Wood By Wright
@@WoodByWrightHowTo I imagine that giggle is involuntary and happens everytime you hear the word, whether in real life or on television. Like your version of a Pillsbury dough boy poke to the gut.
