The first clip was taken from "Liquid drum theater" DVD 2 The second clip was taken from Mangini's official Yt (Link • Mike Mangini Drum Cam ... ) Which one do you prefer and why?
Portnoy is a legend, one of the great rock drummers of all time, and one of the main reasons I fell in love with this band almost 20 years ago. But the band obviously prefers Mangini (with good reason imo) otherwise they would’ve asked Portnoy back in the band by now. Historically they’ve never spared anyone’s feelings if they truly think there’s a better fit. Mangini sits on the back of the beat more than Portnoy does and I think the band digs that type of pocket. It also gives them a more contemporary sound that can compete with the younger, modern prog-metal bands that are a little more jazz influenced and feel groove in that context. Mangini era DT, besides The Astonishing, has been really strong and consistent imo and I think a lot of the hate comes from a bias of thinking Mangini is “boring” or “clinical”. Through the 2000s DT never really changed their sound, so idk why all the current criticism uses words like “stale” or “uninspired”…go back and listen to Octavarium through BC&SL and tell me the same criticism can’t be applied. The Alien is unapologetically complex for an album opener in a way they’ve never done before. AVftTotW (the song) ends in a way they’ve never ended a 20 min song before with the repeating jarring riff while still being epic. Great hooks all over the last two albums too. At Wit’s End! Ok rant over lol
Both tremendous drummers...but Portnoy wrote those songs...and whenever I hear Portnoy...I recognize him immediatly...but no disrespect whatsoever for Mangini sheer excellence, versitality and precision.
If you listen to DT albums throughout the years, you can tell the albums with MP standout way more than albums with MM. You can hear MP is a metal drummer. MM is just technical and that's it. No feel for metal whatsoever....
We are watching one drummer in his youth, who is still establishing a name for himself and his band, playing the part he wrote. The other is a veteran, who has lots of accomplishments and accolades in his bag, playing the part someone else wrote. Before getting technical about drumming, very different phases of life and career already.
Mangini could've been in Dream Theater for 100 years and still every video showing him playing a DT song would have people saying Portnoy is better and the reason has nothing to do with drums. Portnoy is cooler. He has more flair and plays like a badass. That's not my opinion, it's a fact.
Agreed, and I'm also pretty sure Portnoy wasn't playing with a click as well (meaning he had a lot more freedom), Mangini played "by the book" as it was expected of him.
I’ve always been so impressed with how respectful Mike Mangini has been with all of Mike Portnoy’s drum tracks and patterns. He replicated them note for note from the beginning. To me that shows ultimate respect and talent and I will always be a Mangini fan. Yes Portnoy will always be DT and it will be incredible to see him back, but not without feeling for Mangini and always respecting his time with the band. Kudos Mike Mangini 🥰🤗💝
They wouldn't allow it to be different. If you watch the competition where they picked the replacement it is bright up several times. The songs feel a certain way and the fans have heard them many times.
@@RustyKnorr, now you have raised a great point there, Sir. I hadn't thought of that. Portnoy will have to be replicating Mangini's drum parts. Let's see how that pans out 🤘
It's probably nothing to do with the way they play but more likely to do with the sound of their kits, THAT'S what sounds more different, at least to me
he never stopped using mesa boogie amps and his ibanez tone is only sightly different than the ebmm because both have DiMarzio pickups. there's a slight variation though - air Norton and tone zone in his ibanez are slightly brighter. but his tone varied during the Ibanez years do I'm not sure there's such a thing as "Petrucci's Ibanez tone". you sure nostalgia isn't making you hear things?
@@cunjoz there is definitely a petrucci ibanez tone, Ibanez RG is a different guitar than the early EBMM JPs and certainly different from a neck through EBMM Majesty... RGs have a snappy attack and yes the DiMarzio pickups are a massive part of his rig, but listen to the early live records and you'll hear the "Ibanez sound."
@@t3hgir I'm not saying it's not different. but even when he was using the Ibanez his tone had massive variations. this sounds nothing like he sounded in Tokyo or even better, when they played peruvian skies with enter sandman even though this is the same year. here the tone is much fuller, with a defined low end and rich mids, and on that other live recording it's a bit more scooped and the low end is kinda fuzzy
Remember, Mangini is playing Portnoy's vocabulary. Every drummer has their own. It would be interesting to see Mangini's "take" using his own vocabulary.
@@brianmauk5126wtf? Haha Mangini is way better than Portnoy. Dream Theater never let him compose with all his knowledge. Just like he said he didn't have to do what Portnoy did.
Mangini for Dream Theater is kinda like Broderick with Megadeth. The one most technical player that really copy and paste every stroke very well with respect to the original players, but we know he is something else. Thanks for the years back, Mr. Mangini, really enjoy your approach and playing.
@@phuongdinh5836I tend to agree with you, Broderick has similar criticism from Megadeth fans as well AFAIK. Sounds and plays like a computer generated, no 'soul' in it. That's what we heard from Pro Portnoy against Mangini as well.
Broderick was the best guitar player Megadeth ever had and made the best albums with him in the band. I wish they kept him. Now he's wasting his talents for In Flames
Mangini plays like he's sight reading for the first time. His dynamics sound like a sample bank that only has like 2 or 3 samples for each instrument, soft, medium-loud, loud, and the velocity regions are like 0-10, 11-110, 111-127. His timing sounds like a 100% quantised programmed line before "humanize" techniques were invented. Obviously his technical facility is astonishing, but the sound... I'm not sure what is more unbelievable, that he's been in the band like a decade and still sounds so mechanical, or that so many people seem to like it. He seems like a nice guy too lol
the ever popular, "I know Mangini is better than Portnoy but I love Porky. What can I come up with to make it so Mangini isn't as god as Porkboy." Please.
@@mikeb598if you can't thell the obviously obvious points of the video then you're doing a great job to let everybody knows how clueless about musics especially drumming lmfao
@@scylla4342 Mangini was a teacher, Portnoy only a student. A drop out at that. Yep I know nothing about drums. Seen some of the best on the planet. Portnoy isn't one of them. Popular?? Of course.
Is not like Mangini wrote the drum parts for any of these songs…. If he plays the same song as the original recording he will get criticized. If he tries to change some things about the original song he didn’t wrote, he will get criticized. Endless loop
Portnoy is wearing an in-ear monitor so good chance he's still playing with a click track. But I agree on your comments about his flow. Reminds me of what the drummer, Zoro used to say about having to "find the groove". The difference between a drum machine and a real drummer is the groove
At what point in time did it become so detrimental that a song can not speed up or slow down even 1 BPM? I get it when you’re in the studio because it can be a pain to line everything up when you’re recording but doing it live just seems so mechanical to me.
Mangini is still an exceptional drummer but portnoys cymbal work is unreal - his cymbal work really shines on a couple song and this is one. Also portnoy is playing at a bit higher tempo. I’ve actually seen 6:00 live with mangini twice and he did an fantastic job both times - just pointing out a couple differences
Yep, I'm not much of a drummer but Portnoy has great skills at fills and cymbal work, meanwhile Mangini has great groove in the kick. Both are exceptional musicians but it's interesting to see those differences in approach.
now they use more fx, back tracks than the old days, so, click are necessary. Mangini was not to "important" TO DECIDE THIS KIND OF STUFF... Rudess things...@@GazozMaciniz
Why always make a competition I don't understand. Both drummers are outstanding in their own way. I am 64 years old now and I can only dream to play like these guys. Anyway Mike Portnoy is more explosive. Mangine more soft fluid in his playing. Both have their own personality so to speak. Why to be the best drummer in the world...have fun and enjoy playing is most important. 😉👍👍
👍👍👍 About time- COMMON SENSE! Well said. Why oh why, 12 years on, does there still have to be a debate? MOVE ON PEOPLE, and let it go!!!! They’re both brilliant players, and both very different.
@@Alienxfb It’s not the musicians competing though. It’s the fans perpetuating this ridiculous comparison for 12 years!!!! Kevin Moore was allowed to move on, and Jordan Rudess doesn’t get hammered for not having the right “feel”. People need to let this go!
@@Alienxfb I agree. Very true! I’m not talking about musicians competing however, and this thread isn’t about that. This thread, like so many others, is nothing to do with musicians competing. It’s about some fans comparing MP and MM. MP and MM are simply doing their own thing, and selling their own brands. They really don’t need fans marking them out of 10 12 years on.
Whoa.. Portnoy is really struggling rushing and destroying this song. No, he doesn’t wrote a single music note. Not a one. No wonder those DT guys slammed the door on his asssss.
Mangini is an phenomenal drummer and can replicate all the songs with no issue Portnoy just has that feel and magic that cannot be replicated. Both are great but I’ll stick with Portnoy
@@josebuzani2066 Agreed. I haven’t spent much time on the reasons Portnoy left but I have to believe DT recognized he was irreplaceable and the group wouldn’t be the same without him. Some of the music they created honestly seemed impossible to have been put together by a group effort. When you have that kind of chemistry you’d think every effort would be made to maintain that gift.
@@flddoc2 he left because he wanted to take a break from touring and producing- spend time with family and what not. Rest of the band didn’t agree and I’m pretty sure that opened up for more internal issues they had their differences and he left, they kinda pushed them out He does have a good relationship with the band now except with James Lebrie
@@josebuzani2066 Have you heard specifically what his issue is with Labrie? He's the only one I've read Mike saying anything negative about. Sounds like he's cool with all the other guys in DT. I've even seen pics online of Mike and his family hanging out with John and his family.
I've always preferred Portnoy's version on this particular song, but the ease with which Mangini plays it all without straying from the click even a little bit is nothing short of awe inspiring.
I disagree, Mangini doesn't play half time shuffle, he play less notes and at slower tempo. Playing a Jeff Porcaro's shuffle is extremely difficult, you have to build hand muscle, have a feel of the groove and train a lot to get at Portnoy's speed.
@@phawxhunter Portnoy and Porcaro are two VERY different beasts, though both fantastic in their own rights. Also, I'm sure Mangini is able to play the half time shuffle with no problem. It's pretty basic as far as execution goes, and his technical skills are off the charts, so he should be able to play it in his sleep. Playing with the same feel as another drummer is another story, but that's not a requirement for being able to play a type of beat. Lastly, while Mangini does take out some of the 32nd notes here on the hi-hat compared to Portnoy, he's doing that by choice, not because he's unable to do them. He's one of the fastest drummers in history if you look through videos of him.
@@phawxhunter lol first of all "jeff porcaro's shuffle" is the purdie shuffle, and second while I guess its not a beginner groove its not particularly hard and its downright silly to say mangini cant play it
It also has to be said that classic DT had that funky edge as a whole, not just Portnoy. They lost it somewhere along the way and that's kind of when I lost interest too.
The major difference is that Mike Portnoy played his own written song. Mangini played it just because he has to 😁 Both of musicians are multi-talented and well-respected.
@L. Lazman yeah Mangini is so sloppy, he should get some drum lessons, maybe he should also find a band with more talented membersor make himself a better career...I swear to god youtube comments...
Mangini's limb independence is light years ahead of Portnoy's, it's funny that not one drummer in the comments can even put that in the equation. I Iike Portnoy but he is mostly a single stroke drummer like Neil Peart was. Neil started working on that later in his career. Limb independence is what makes a drummer great but not popular. Peace
@@SafeInstinct he may can but what I really meant is that Enemy Inside drums are more advanced than anything from Portnoy era. I don't play drums, so, it's just an ignorant opinion.
Nor will they. It’s like Tool trying to replace Danny Carey. I just can’t imagine they wouldn’t do whatever is necessary to keep someone who is simply irreplaceable. Hard to imagine they didn’t see that.
@@drums4lyfe0987 Mangini was chosen for his ability to sit in the Portnoy pocket. If DT can barely handle Mangini's little deviation from regular time in the "Finally Free" outro, how are they gonna handle freaks like Donati, who's drum parts are barely recognisable as music. Mangini is that palatable middle ground. You can hear in Alien, A view from the Top of the world, awaken the master, pale blue dot, that they are starting to head into that complicated and ethereal rhythmic stuff.
To me, Mangini is more of an "academic" wonderchild. He sounds like an aced graduate with the highest degree in music awarded by universities and conservatories... He's really, really good. Portnoy to me is just... a guy who doesn't sound that educated... he just has this natural feel and oozes groove. Yeah, it's Portnoy for me. However, I think that DT chose wisely for Mangini as Portnoy's successor. Saw Mangini perform live with them this year and it was pretty good. A bit clinical... but still, very good.
Perfect example of what a band playing to a click track sounds like vs not. Personally, I prefer performances without one. It makes the listening experience unique from the album version. Also, in a live context I view the drummer as being in charge of the tempo. If the drummer thinks ramping up the tempo for a section of the song is appropriate then that's their call., as long as they communicate that effectively to the rest of the band.
@@scylla4342 That's true, for all of Mangini's technical brilliance, his dynamics while playing with DT were usually very flat. I have no doubt he has the ability to play more dynamically but for some reason he chose not to.
No drummer can beat Mike Portnoy's stage presence. The way he move, attitude and everything is makes us sit and watch only him. After all these are his own tunes.. no one can replace his touch!
I think it helps portnoy’s version that you can hear the rest of the band. Mangini sounds like the video cut off before it goes back to the beginning and he teaches you how to play like portnoy.
True even though they could not have found a better Replacement This time it is impeccable but there's always gonna be haters because hes not the same person Mangini is a savage beast
It is quite far simply (simplier? More simply?) to explain and expose as an argument (spoiler: I have met personally both Mike Portnoy and Mike Mangini, chatting and exchanging ideas about music with them). Mike Mangini absolutely has a perfect control and technique. An extremely superb awesome drummer and teacher. Perfection. A pure virtuoso, remarking that he respects Mike Portnoy recognising the talent and innovative ideas that Mike Portnoy supplied/shared/contributed to),however...who was the original composer or the very first one who/which 🤔 thought and developed that rhythm patterns and sequences? If you watch and listen carefully to the Mike Portnoy performance you can feel and taste and breath the musical line which is maintaining a dialogue, connecting with the other musical instruments and ideas 💡 and it sounds like it was though, created and recorded. I am not discussing the power and God like status of Mangini... but 6.00 is a masterpiece at its own and nobody can beat the original atmosphere and magic caught at the studio and on stage. There is a lot of differences (attitude, age, energy, tone, timbre, moment...feeling...) probably my favourite DT track. 😍 but it is my opinion (and I am a Mangini fan).
You have to seriously be joking. “Feel” what a freaking lame excuse Portnoy rushes he’s out of time and it makes it harder for the band to play consistently.
So your argument is that Portnoy has a better feel for the piece of music he wrote? Shocking conclusion to arrive at. The fact that Portnoy wrote the parts gives him the edge, but we would say the exact same thing if Portnoy was playing parts Mangini wrote. It's so dumb to do this.
Now that i see this I think what i like about portnoy is how hard he hits the drum kit. Because of that he probably has to go deeper in every stroke and therefore move quicker to hit the next one... Looks and sounds better playing the same notes, while mangini is a guiness record when it comes to speed but he strikes with less depth and strenght beeing easier to go to the next move... Looks easy and sounds weak. Less spectacular, less groovy. Does thst makes any sense?
The FII iteration of the band was really pretty underrated in DT lore. It's a Portnoy part, he wrote it, he owns it and plays it with a certain sense of "isn't this cool?". Mangini plays it more like "I hope the fans don't bitch if I mess it up".
And they bitch anyway, like the Modern Drummer festival video there’s a full on thread of people talking about Mangini’s hair ( that he was growing out). Both are exceptional drummers with vastly different personalities and playing styles, they both have a mutual respect for one another, and are both happy in their current bands.
@@Staplez440 DT as with most bands that did/do Prog and made it have fans that are more or less hypnotized for a period that the band they like has to be a certain way or it's... bad. Sometimes it's true, sometimes its BS. But it happens like clockwork.
I don't think that mangini is worrying about screwing up. LoL. No I would say an expression I heard before and it goes something like this, " the guy,s wearing his own clothes" meaning he is not there to be a carbon copy of Portnoy. People will always nit picking, but Mangini is there to stay, and that's the line up, that's it. Like you said those are Portnoy,s parts. It would be interesting to hear Portnoy playing Mangini,s parts, but it won't happen, at least I don't think so. LoL
@@pascaldeslongchampsmoncton1490 Portnoy will be the drummer again in DT before the thing is said and done. That's my prediction on that. (I'm also a decade or more removed from having much passion behind the issue, it's just my read on how this stuff plays out).
@@colinburroughs9871 you maybe right, but even if something happens to Mangini I don't see the band going back, unless for a few special events, like the r n r hall of Fame accepting speech and performance. LoL, no I am joking. No I think Labrie and the bass player, I forgot his name, were not getting along with Portnoy either. So, do you want the risk of reactivate old anemosities or just prefer moving along?
It's THE KIT. There's something about the sound of Mangini's snare and cymbals that just feels "off", tuning maybe? I don't know, but Portnoy's drums have a sort of OOMPH, they sound far more "bassy", and it helps creating a more groovy sound.
So much respect for Mangini. Imagine coming into a band where the shoes you had to fill were Portnoy's. No one could match Portnoy's skill and raw passion. Mangini nailed the last 13 years in DT tho, as well as we could have hoped. We all know Portnoy needed some time out of the band and in retrospect I wouldn't have picked anyone but Mangini to fill the role. Thanks Mike and bring on the next chapter of DT. Eagerly awaiting the new album. LET'S GO!
I wholeheartedly disagree with you. DT tried to convince Marco Minnemman without success. Marco could have elevated the band to another level with his creativity and endless technique. Watch the video about DT's drummer selection. Marco did not simply play without any effort and a lot of character but you also feel that for him the track he plays is just too easy. He is basically laughing and making fun constantly while playing.
I'm not even sure why we are comparing? (I think I've fallen into the clickbait trap) I don't want any musician to replicate another, I want them to play it in their style. Both drummers are superb. However seeing this live on the awake tour was incredible.
Mangini has ZERO.. feel ---- it feels like he doesnt want to be there. and just blah blah around the notes . in turn I don't buy a ticket .. Mike P sounds like he's Hungry and ready to kill .... and rip your face off with the grove.
Yeah, but Mangini looks lifeless even at live shows. Portnoy and him are barely the same age, but boy oh boy, Portnoy looks like a electrified adolescent still today! Both are tremendous technically, but I'll always be a Portnoy.
Assolutamente! Mangini tecnicamente è su un altro livello e non ci piove, è un batterista incredibile e pagherei oro per essere un quarto del quarto del batterista che è, però Portnoy ha un gusto e un tiro che Mangini se lo sogna e per me è oggettivo! Che figata la musica.
non so perché la gente pensa che se un batterista è tecnico = è un robot senza feel, se un batterista è più impreciso = umano con più feel. Non funziona così. Mangini ha un sacco di feel, basta con ste cazzate che è un robot e che suona senza emozione...
Portnoy has groove and flow, the music infects him. Mangini has complete precision. I saw him live earlier this year and was baffled. Man was doing double bass and high hat barks on the same foot with swivel technic.... so either drummer wins In my book. Portnoy is organic
Both of these drummers inspired me to get my first drum set at 36 lol, they are both exceptional drummers. Portnoy's technique and feels will be better, Mangini skill will always be unmatched but he doesn't have the portnoy personality.
Why would he have the Portnoy personality, he is his own person, that's probably why he is in the band. I saw Portnoy twice with DT and once in a clinic, I saw Mangini twice in clinic but unfortunately never live. And I had the feel that Mangini had the ability to explain everything, very clearly, about his technic, his creative process, or what he was playing, when with Portnoy it was much more vague, or should I say esoteric, like " you have to be me to get there" not in a pretensious way, but not able to clearly explain thing. As a drums teacher I like to have the whole story behind something you know. Anyway I think they are both great, different, but great, it's a matter of preference, and not comparison.
There is something about mike mangini that even if I comapare him to other drummers such as those who play DT drum covers, he still sounds like a drum machine than those guys.
If there's one thing I do miss, it's the organic live sound from back in those days. No click, just a raw live interpretation of really complicated music. After getting used to listening to live DT in the metronome era lately, it's actually hilarious watching Portnoy rip into 6:00 full speed ahead and watching Sheridian hanging on for dear life trying to keep up with MP
Portnoy has that raw energy that makes his drums sound very interesting, while Mangini has insane precision and timing which makes it not as enjoyable, but must be very convenient and reliable for live and studio work (not saying Portnoy doesn't slay in in studio of course)
Mangini is a monster of a player and it is easy to understand why the band wanted him after Portnoy. BUT! And the predictable yet warranted BUT! For us listeners of their music Portnoy brought a very humanistic flare that has been missing since his departure. Mangini isn´t why this is so though. It is that the rest of the band had only Portnoy bringing that kind of musical spirit and now they have a drummer who is like the rest of them, precise and exact. Clinical. The band got their perfect match, the fans lost their human connector
Portnoy plays with his heart and soul. Mangini is like a drum machine. I like the heart and soul way better. Saw Mangini in clinic and he was kinda douchy. Just my take.
@@l.lazman4751 is your response not me!? If so then I'll respond as such. I agree with you completely! I wasn't trying to suggest portnoy wasn't delivering such accuracy ever or at all. I was trying to emphasize the difference mangini represented for the band after portnoy. The fact remains, portnoy was replaced and then kept replaced and I theorise because of John Petrucci and Jordan Rudess wanting a drummer of exactness like themselves. A theory I offer to you earnestly but not suggesting portnoy actually had faulted in this area of music. It's clear my opinion of portnoy in my former comment and still is my preference for the band because of his more rounded balance
@@l.lazman4751 I agree with your assessment here 100 percent. You've helped refine my point before. Your mentioning of colour and textures tells me you've a musical ear. I can respect that and furthermore I agree with it also. Great point about Portnoy, I too love this about his playing and writing over mangini
Also, for a guy who supposedly excels at single hand speed.. I'm SUPER surprised Mangini is using 2 hands for the HH pattern at the intro. He also missed the 32nd notes on the HH in the measure just before the 6/8 time kicks in.
Both are rock drummers at amongst highest levels, specializing on experimental rock, with Portnoy focusing more on 'feel' and 'instinct', and Mangini focusing more on 'theory' and 'precision'
@@michaelharrisson1683 Mangini is far more technical and precise than Portnoy was. Not even close, really. Was Portnoy more musical or did he seem to have a better feel that attracted people to his playing? Sure, I can buy that. His cymbal work is fantastic. But Mangini's chops are far superior.
Portnoy's intro is without the click while Mangini's is with the click. The feel between with/without is going to be apparent. I'm pretty certain if DT went without the click like they used to, Mangini would play this with a different feel, and would probably play much different live. I don't like the criticisms between either drummer and I'm positive it wasnt the OP's intent either. Portnoy and Mangini are fantastic drummers and I'd give my soul to play even with half the skill either of them have, and their times in DT have been awesome to hear.
Portnoy's musicality is all you need to know here. Never been about technique, his power comes from his ability to feel each single note and be able to serve the song even when it is about odd times or busy fills.
What do you mean “musicality?“ He’s a drummer and his timing sucks. His creative ideas are very great. But the band struggles to play with him and that’s not a great drummer.
@@jaym6906 I mean exactly that: you don't need to be always and exactly on the grid to sound great. The notion "playing in the pocket" for example pictures a drummer who is able to play a slightly delayed backbeat creating a great feel whatsoever. Portnoy may not be the most on time drummer on earth, but he definitely knows how to deliver the groove and follow the flow without sounding completely out of the grid
@@nathandrums0 Yes, unfortunately for your snootiness I have been playing for more than 20 years, have been fortunate enough to have excellent teachers in Italy, and am aware of how the expression "playing in the pocket" refers to a complete package of timing, groove, musicality, listening skills and precision, as well as the ability to stay inside the piece and play with other musicians with absolute fluidity. That said, I believe that Portnoy's cannot be considered 100 percent pocket drumming, but that he as a drummer has the fundamental characteristics necessary to come across as musical and attuned to the band in every performance. Timing has betrayed him at times, but as one of my early teachers used to say, "Being aware of being ahead or behind and using it in favor of the groove is a virtue, not a flaw."
