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6.3 on MFT is NOT 6.3 on FF 

Wilder
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There are a lot of misconceptions when it comes to the differences between MFT and FF sensors. In this video, I'll be clearing up the main discrepancies between the two so that you can decide what's best for your kit.
Access to the Comparison Video Footage Below:
drive.google.com/drive/folder...
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#microfourthirds #fullframe #camerasensorcomparison

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12 окт 2023

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Комментарии : 39   
@officialwilder
@officialwilder 10 месяцев назад
*due to RU-vid's compression, it is important to view the resolution of this video at full 2160p in order to see the differences in noise. RU-vid's compression at lower quality rates make it hard to see a difference between noise levels. P.S. Original video files available for download in the description. Those claiming I "moved" and "changed distance to subject" for my DOF examples will be able to see that I clearly did not. P.S. Somehow during export the "red circles" I added in editing got misplaced and cut off and I didn't catch it before upload. Please excuse the mistake!
@kwchalky02
@kwchalky02 10 месяцев назад
Good video, although in my experience I think it is generally well understood by mft users that in terms of depth of field the equivalent ff aperture number is double. The greater depth of field for given aperture on mft is either an advantage or disadvantage, depending on your circumstance/what you are trying to achieve.
@officialwilder
@officialwilder 10 месяцев назад
You'd be surprised, I've had a lot of people fight me on that simple fact haha. Thank you! :)
@BrentODell
@BrentODell 10 месяцев назад
As a musician, the way I think about iso is 'input gain'. If you have to crank the gain on a mixer or audio interface you're going to get more noise. As you boost the signal, the noise is boosted along with it, so leaving it as low as possible is always preferred. For the depth of field, I find it most useful to just remember that a 400mm lens will have the same DoF at a given distance and aperture. If you took a picture with 400mm on a FF camera and a MFT camera, both at 6.3(I'm not aware of a 400mm 5.6 in the MFT space), they'd have the same DoF, but the MFT shot would appear more 'zoomed in' because of the crop. It would look more like an 800mm shot at f/11.
@officialwilder
@officialwilder 10 месяцев назад
Both your comments are exactly right 🙌🏻 I do sound work myself at my church and can totally agree with your comparison to the input gain 👌
@godsfilmmaker8863
@godsfilmmaker8863 10 месяцев назад
I appreciate you taking more of the practical approach! Sometimes the super scientific “here’s what’s actually happening” explanation is not that helpful in the field, I think people leave a lot of those videos thinking their micro 4/3 camera produces exactly what their full frame camera produces as an end result, or just being confused. this was pretty balanced! Also good that you were referencing modern cameras and not just a GH5 or something like that
@officialwilder
@officialwilder 10 месяцев назад
Most definitely! Well said and I’m glad it gave a practical look into how it works 🙌🏻
@Wildridefilms
@Wildridefilms 10 месяцев назад
I think a more fair comparison would have been two sensors with dual native ISOs. The G9II doesn't have dual native ISO, as it sacrificed it for DR boost, which is not very effective for low light photography. Anyway, great comparison. But the same f stop would mean the same light DENSITY, regardless of sensor size. And as mentioned before, with technologies like Dual native ISO and Back side illumination, light sensitivity is getting much better in the mean time. I hoped the G9ii would have had DN iso as it is meant to be photo centric, but DR boost isn't half bad either.
@bpalotas
@bpalotas 10 месяцев назад
Great explanation. I also used to not know this, but what convinced me originally that DOF will be different with the exact same lens (say 400mm f/6.3) mounted on different size sensors, is that imagine trying to frame the same photo (for example a headshot of a deer). On full frame, you'll be some distance away with a given depth of field and background blur. On APS-C or MFT, you're too close! You need to go 1.5 or 2x further to get the same shot, and at larger distance the dept of field will be wider. And now the subject-to-background distance became relatively less compared to the camera-to-subject distance, thus the background blur will be smaller.
@officialwilder
@officialwilder 10 месяцев назад
You're 100% correct. That's a great way to explain it too, but for whatever reason when I've tried to explain it that way to others before sometimes they don't get it haha. But thanks for sharing that here in the comments and hopefully some can relate to this explanation as well 👌
@bpalotas
@bpalotas 10 месяцев назад
@@officialwilder actually another question about ISO, since as you said it doesn't magically increase light-gathering capability, it digitally [or rather analog-ly? but that's not the point] brightens the scene. Main question is: comparing a hypothetical 20MP FF vs 20MP MFT sensor taking the same picture at the same aperture, shutter speed and ISO, that same-number ISO from the MFT sensor should actually have 4x higher gain and 4x higher noise because each pixel got 4x fewer light?
@paulpantorilla6121
@paulpantorilla6121 10 месяцев назад
The size of each kit is what really makes micro 4/3s my choice. It's easier to hide and less bulky when getting lower angle shots. Also good to note, editing software is evolving fast. I can add smoother depth of field and noise clean-up is getting impressive.
@officialwilder
@officialwilder 10 месяцев назад
Size and cost are definitely the best reasons to go MFT 🙌🏻
@malcolmmeddings8502
@malcolmmeddings8502 10 месяцев назад
Thank you for you lucid explanation. I changed form FF (Canon) to MFT (Olympus) a few years ago and have not really been bothered by the longer depth of field - just use a "faster" lens or try to ensure the background is further away. Most of my photography is motor sport or birding so the longer D of F is often an advantage - maybe that's why shallow D of F is not a priority for me. I do notice the extra noise though and often juggle with ISO, exposure and shutter speed to compensate. However I had not cottoned on to slightly over exposing - so a big thank you for explaining that. Incidentally I followed you manual focusing clips with interest and am trying (it is very trying !) to put the ideas into practice - very much a work in progress so far! I do have more success using "modern" lenses than I do with vintage all manual ones interestingly, but the sense of achievement when I get it right is far more than when auto focusing - so thank one again.
@officialwilder
@officialwilder 10 месяцев назад
That’s great to hear! I’m glad that my manual focusing techniques have made an impact. I seem to get lots of similar feedback from many on it. And I’m glad you were able to pull that little nugget from the video with overexposure as well :) keep up the practice with MF!
@thekeytoairpower
@thekeytoairpower 10 месяцев назад
I do primarily wildlife photography and I would always say under expose rather than over. You can recover shadows if you underexpose... most of the data is still there, just noisy, and in 2023, we can fix noise. If you clip highlights, there is no data to recover.
@JACKnJESUS
@JACKnJESUS 10 месяцев назад
Yes and no. Over exposing is not the same as clipping everything. If the dark areas of your image have something to offer to the image...you make sure the dark is not clipped...that's all. Don't worry about the highlights...they should not be that overexposed...and the detail is easier to recover than the other way round. It's more of a balancing act...just a nudge...not a shove.
@officialwilder
@officialwilder 10 месяцев назад
Jack was correct in his comment above. My “overexposed” by 1 stop, it was not meant that I “blew out” my highlights
@d-entrecasteaux
@d-entrecasteaux 10 месяцев назад
You sort of nearly got there with this explanation. I find the biggest misinformation comes from people thinking that in terms of exposure MFT at f6.3 has the light gathering ability of f13 on FF. You kind of implied this misinformation too but subtly corrected it with a text overlay “in regards to DOF.”
@officialwilder
@officialwilder 10 месяцев назад
I forgot to reiterate it at the moment because my brain was already thinking on that track, but I meant to say in regards to DOF verbally, so I just added it as a correction as text in post. But yes, f/6.3 from a lens will always gather a "6.3" amount of light no matter the mount, however, once again that sensor size will effect how efficiently that light is gathered. So the light gathering capability is the same between lenses, but different between sensor sizes. In this case, MFT is less efficient at collecting that light and therefore leads to an increase in noise.
@dogpadogpa
@dogpadogpa 10 месяцев назад
​@@officialwilder Please update your video. f6.3 is f6.3 on all sizes in exposure (that's why light meters NEVER ask you what your focal length or size of sensor is.) Please add the ISO equivalence (e.g. m43 300mm f6.3 ISO 400 is equal to full frame 600mm f13 ISO 1600) as lots of people think you're saying it collects more light and doesn't need ISO match ups. However, this equivalence only happens when viewing the picture to the same size. Once you view the applied 4x size (e.g. m4/3 on A4 and full frame on A2) with the same tech, both images look exactly the same in noise performance.
@officialwilder
@officialwilder 10 месяцев назад
I never said that 6.3 isn't 6.3 in regards to light gathering on all sensor sizes so I'm not sure what you're asking me to update? I simply stated that noise control is worse on a smaller MFT sensor because of the examples I gave in the video... and I said that in regards to DOF 6.3 gets pushed two stops up to f/13 when put onto a MFT sensor and compared to a FF equivalent. We are saying the same thing if you listen closely to everything I say in the video.
@dogpadogpa
@dogpadogpa 10 месяцев назад
@@officialwilder I agree with 95% of your vid but some times (like 3.23) it sounds that full frame gets more sensitivity or gets more light. But if full frame can match DoF to MFT bring up that the ISO has to balance it out. e.g. FF f/12.6 ISO 1600 equals MFT f/6.3 ISO 400. It's just a single point that viewers get caught up in.
@richardfink7666
@richardfink7666 10 месяцев назад
Hello, the exposure parameters are the same no matter how big the sensor is. And a greater depth of field also has advantages!
@officialwilder
@officialwilder 10 месяцев назад
What do you mean by “exposure parameters”? The larger the sensor the more space it has to gather light just as shown in the video… so in that way it is not the same
@richardfink7666
@richardfink7666 10 месяцев назад
If a photois correctly exposed with aperture2.8 and Iso 200 and 1/100 sec., it will be correctly exposed with these parameters with any sensor size. And that`s all that matters to me. I can get the noise under control with software.@@officialwilder
@thekeytoairpower
@thekeytoairpower 10 месяцев назад
​@@officialwilder If you were to expose a photo on a FF camera then adapt the exact same lens to an M43 the settings would be the same. Correct exposure is to do with how light and dark a photo is, not dof or grain. That is why saying 400mm f6.3 FF=800mm f13 m43 is not accurate. As you say you are just taking a 400mm f6.3 photo and cropping out 3/4 of it. You have not changed the exposure. Exposure is photons per area, not total photons. back in the DSLR days they all needed F8 to focus... no matter the sensor size, because f8=f8 exposure wise.
@officialwilder
@officialwilder 10 месяцев назад
As you hopefully saw, when I said 400mm f/6.3 > 800mm f/13 I put an asterisk up top that said "in regards to DOF". So no, f/6.3 does not equal f/13 in regards to light gathering. In the moment of me speaking, I simply forgot to reiterate that in the moment I was only talking about DOF which is why I added that text in post
@richardfink7666
@richardfink7666 10 месяцев назад
Sorry I missed it.@@officialwilder
@JezdziecBezNicka
@JezdziecBezNicka 10 месяцев назад
f/6.3 is f/6.3 with regards to exposure triangle. If you buy an f/11 FF lens and expect things to work exactly the same as a f/5.6 MFT lens, you'll be disappointed. I've noticed a recent trend in photography, where people assume that DOF is the only thing that counts.
@JACKnJESUS
@JACKnJESUS 10 месяцев назад
End product. No one cares about the exposure triangle. It's all about visual perception...ppl see DOF...it is instantaneous. The final image DOF will absolutely affect the viewer. If you want to isolate a subject at f/6.3...MFT needs a lens that shoots f/3.2. F6.3 is fairly high already. Things get much worse for MFT as the F stops drop. The lens may gather the same light...but it falls on a tiny sensor. It's a marriage in the end...though marketing loves to separate them (for obvious reasons). Larger sensors don't have that handicap. There are no free lunches in engineering.
@dogpadogpa
@dogpadogpa 10 месяцев назад
@@JACKnJESUS Larger sensors do have a handicap in size, weight, cost etc.
@JACKnJESUS
@JACKnJESUS 10 месяцев назад
@@dogpadogpa Not a handicap...you simply get what you pay for in this world. You may have to pay more to get more...welcome to earth :) But once again...the folks looking at images don't think about that much at all. They care about the final product. You shouldn't want the handicap to be in the final images...or the amount of extra work you have to do to reduce that handicap. I'll pay up front.
@dogpadogpa
@dogpadogpa 10 месяцев назад
​@@JACKnJESUS Either they both have 'handicaps' or none do. Depends on your definition. Any size, weight or cost can be regarded as a handicap (e.g. which is why lots of war photojournalists chose to work with compact cameras and smartphones). Each system has its own advantages and disadvantages. I'd choose full frame / medium format for shallow DoF, studio, wedding and architecture (Tilt shift) and m4/3 for macro, street, wildlife, website product, travel and weather hiking. In small photo terms there almost no need for 'large sensor' advantages.
@JezdziecBezNicka
@JezdziecBezNicka 10 месяцев назад
@@JACKnJESUS my only point was that those equivalencies are not as equivalent as they seem. When buying gear, it's preferrable to make an informed decision. I went the m43 route, will supplement it with Fuji GFX in the future. With those choices I am not calculating equivalencies in my head, just weighing pros and cons.
@ammadoux
@ammadoux 10 месяцев назад
what about light gathering ?
@officialwilder
@officialwilder 10 месяцев назад
I think the solar panel example in the video is the easiest way to compare it. While the lens doesn’t take in more light between MFT and FF, the sensor does have more space to take in the light on a FF
@uncertainrelease
@uncertainrelease 10 месяцев назад
Okay, so there is one big misconception in this video, which is comparing two sensor sizes using the same *equivalent* focal length. Depth of field is based of 3 variables : the focal length, the diameter of the aperture of the lens, and the focus distance. The shorter the focus distance is, the shallower the DOF gets. The longer the focal length at a given focus distance is, the shallower the DOF gets And at any focus distance, the wider the aperture is, the shallower the DOF gets as well. The difference you're observing in DOF between your full frame camera and your MFT camera doesn't come from the fact that the sensor is smaller. Put the 600mm lens on the MFT camera, and you'll have the exact same rendereing and depth of field, except with a 2x crop. The difference comes from the fact that to "simulate" the same angle of view with the MFT camera, you need a lens that is half the focal length. So from 600mm, you go to 300mm. Then you stayed consistent with the exposure, so both were open at f/6.3, which means the diameter of the aperture on the 600mm lens was 95.2mm, while the aperture on the 300mm lens was 47.6mm So by having halved the focal length, and halved the diameter of your aperture in the process, you ended up with a much deeper DOF, but that has nothing to do with the sensor itself, only the lens that you put in front of it. Also, the 400mm f/6.3 lens on MFT IS equivalent to an 800mm f/6.3 lens on full frame in regards to exposure and angle of view (roughly). DOF comes third as it's generally not as important as the other two. f/6.3 will have the same exposure no matter the sensor size, the only difference is that with a full frame one, you'll be able to get a better signal / noise ratio and reduce the visible noise on the image (also get greater dynamic range). But that doesn't mean that you have a brighter exposure. Otherwise we would choose our cameras based on the pixel pitch and how large pixels would get a brighter image than smaller ones. That's not the case at all.
@officialwilder
@officialwilder 10 месяцев назад
As mentioned in the video, I never said that a FF sensor gets a brighter “exposure” then a MFT sensor when both are set to the same aperture. It simply has more available space to collect the light resulting in a better signal to noise ratio just as you said too. So I’m not sure what you heard that made you believe I said different? And in regards to the DOF comment. Firstly, I think it’s relative whether it’s more or less important than the other features you mentioned. For me, shallow DOF is incredibly important and necessary for my art, but for some, they could care less. Secondly, youre still caught in a loop with your example of the DOF you gave. For the *600mm equiv, it was shot from the same exact position at the same aperture and the point is that when that 300mm MFT was shot to be the “600mm FF equiv”, you get a less shallow DOF when no other factors have changed. Now extend this out once more and pretend that we fully zoomed in and shot that same lens at 400mm (so a 800mm FF equiv). If I had a FF lens that could shoot 800mm FF, that depth of field at 6.3 would be 2 stops more shallow than the MFT. The proof is in the footage and I’m not sure why that still isn’t enough for some people. There is a reason why you can’t find a test anywhere on RU-vid disproving this and most people who comment don’t have the luxury of owning both so are innocently mislead by others because they can’t see it for themselves. I included all my videos in the description below so people can see for themselves
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