How refreshing to hear a professional shop finally point out that the warping created by “media” blasting is not because of the heat supposedly generated but actually by the “peening” of the surface by the sand or glass particles striking the surface. This process has been specified by engineers for decades to stress relieve welded or formed metal parts. So using cooling water during the blasting will not prevent warping. Steel has to have a color change (dull red,red,cherry red,white hot all ancient forger terms) created by added heat changing the molecular structure of the material. Also you are so correct about the sand or glass used during blasting constantly falling or blowing out of crevices in the car greatly affecting the painting process. I worked diligently during my rotisserie restoration of my Mustang to remove it, but 5 years later it is still falling out. Thanks for the professional approach you use in all your projects and sharing your knowledge with all of us DIY enthusiasts.
I've done multiple builds with dipping the shell and also all of the panels - never used acid though. My 'favourite' at the moment is the REDI-STRIP process that uses an electrolytic process to remove the rust - and achieves a similar outcome to Metal Works achieve without using acid. My approach after the dipping (and ensuring ALL areas are flushed//neutralised) is to use a pressure pot with a suitable long extension to spray a suitable paint up into the cavities that are now bare metal. Then finally cavity wax after the topcoat is all finished (NEVER before). HA - and yes - you can almost guarantee - somewhere - a piece of sand will come back out of somewhere and cause a problem if you used sandblasting (NEVER use sand - use a 'safe' media if you are going to mead blast) - been there done that and had sand come out into a topcoat - HA. Two problems when dipping a shell etc - whether it be an acid or electrolytic process - 1) is ensuring that ALL the chemicals are flushed//neutralised, and 2) getting paint coverage on all the box//cavity sections. And uniformed people whine about dipping now leaving bare metal in the box//cavity sections, HA - nearly all early cars had no paint in those areas from the day they were manufactured (later cars dipped using EDP are a different animal) and therefore if you spend the time and do a good job of getting paint inside those box//cavity sections, you have done better than the factory did when the car was built. Pull the roof skin off a 66 Mustang or similar area vehicle and you will be amazed at the amount of rust hiding on those bare metal surfaces. There are a few facilities that can offer EDP after dip stripping a car, unfortunately none near me here in AUSTRALIA, but I have seen that offered in the USA and UK and worth looking into. CHEERS from AUSTRALIA.
Digging this weekly videos great way to start the weekend. Coffee and phone in hand for, Saturday morning with Sylvester. As always you guys are killing it. Looking forward to the build and the steps you take to get it there
Hahaha - I acid dipped my 57 Chev HT coupe. Ive spent the last 4 years staring at the badly repaired rear quarters, not knowing what to do. Ive learnt to weld and a bunch of panel skills watching videos like yours - much appreciated, your 61 is of huge interest to me, I got a rotisserie, no sand, but curious about inside the panels. Cheers from New Zealand.
Hi Travis. I did a 55 chevy in the late 90's and had it dipped. We scuffed it and epoxy primed it the day after we got it back. It took a couple years to finish it , but it turned out beautiful. About 4 years after it was painted , it started to want to lift paint at a lot of the overlapping seams that were spot welded together like in the gutters. After doing research , we found out that a proper dipping process involves either dipping it , or a pressure washing process with phosphate to neutralize the acid it was initially dipped in. The customer handled the dipping part. It was new to us , and we didn't know about the phosphate thing. It only makes sense that the backsides of all the panels you cant paint are going to rust again after dipping...and in some parts that were galvanized...like rockers , are going to have lost protection they once had. I'm curious what your take is on this? Keep up the good work man....
Thank you. Yes I agree. We were very picky on who we chose he has been dipping cars for many years. This guy neutralizes everything very well. As for inside the rockers 3M sales something that you can spray inside of the cavities. 👍🏻
Never heard on youtube or elsewhere saying, that sandblasting warps metal not because of heat. You are the first person and I 100 perc agree. There is a heat when you target to one spot for 10s. In reality, sharp sand particle hits metal and opens small cavity. The edges of that cavity bend to all direction. And makes outer metal layer wider that other side. This process forces metal to warp, unless there is a lot of edges, curves and stuff like that on the part. In this case force created in metal surface is not enough to bend metal.
I'll never sand blast another car. I will only have them do stuff that is very structured, like jams, dash, firewall, floor pan. I had a sand blaster ruin a good hood and trunk. Never again
I would surmise that the sandblasting can stretch the metal. Years back when I was attending automotive machine shop at the local community college, the instructor bead blasted some pistons for an outboard engine for his boat and he had to sand them down somewhat to get them to fit with proper clearance. He said that the bead blasting most likely stretched the aluminum and increased the size of the piston to where the fit was too tight. Food for thought.
Yes sir you give a lot of information here that will accomplish an education to people as to what they can do to head off problems when it comes to this type of work. A professional shop with a good reputation will be forth coming with their work and of course will get the price that they deserve as you well know. Being up front with a customer and educating them as to the involvement there is to taking a car down to this state and rebuilding it to a point of where it was when it went down the assembly line is the challenge. This is not Earl Schieb we are talking about here. Your videos are educational.
Great advice. Just brought in a 57 TR3 that was dipped at Metalworks. So pleased w the state of their finished product. I prefer CRE-321 epoxy because it’s half the price of the Vibrance end of PPGs lineup yet is literally the same product 😎
Awesome informative content Travis, cant agreed more about the dipping process , it gives such an honest ground zero to begin the build from. Im a convert to the PPG vp2050 , its a great product to work with in everyway. Look forwards to seeing this build come along!
Thank you very much. We will discuss this process next week actually. I don’t recommend it at all. It fills up rockers etc and turns hard as a rock. Then if that gets wet it will cancer out the body.
My brother had an older vehicle acid dipped and then neutralize to keep the metal from rusting he knew there would be some pieces missing after the acid dipping but it was minor. I believe it was 38 coupe 2-door.
I would love to know where all the crap in the cavities goes and how you get it out after the dipping process. It’s gonna settle somewhere just like sand. No Pun , intended just a valid question from someone that has a background in industrial coatings. Your videos are awesome and you are very knowledgeable. Love them and I’ll keep watching for sure.
Have you seen this video we did on sand blasting? What They're Not Telling You About Sandblasting - Watch Now! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-uLJvlQ8t-RU.html
The term used in the assembly plants for a bare metal shell is "body in white" and they are then completely submerged in a very thin etching primer bath. Always wondered if this primer bathing process would become available for the restoration industry?
Etching primer bath or not, either way it get the manufacture off the hook for the 10 year Rust Thru warranty they all come with. After that, it is anyones guess on long it would last. Goods produced fall into “Consumables or Durable” goods. Most of what the bulk of the public can afford to buy, it not going to make it past 15 years before the front hood crimp, doors, rocker panels or trunk lid start rusting from the inside out. I hate to say it, but even with $40-$60 vehicle, it falls into the throw away category as they won’t get fixed, just driven. Makes a guy wonder how good the product is inside the tanks new “White Metal” is dunked into is? Is this the 5,000 hour salt stray test material? GM engineers told our ACDelco group that 5,000 hours is translated into 150,000 miles. As parts, bearing size, PA66-GF33 plastics are used to make oil pans, rocker covers, intakes and my all favorite radiator end tank! They last enough and so many thermal cycles then crack! The plastic on my Harbor Freight pliers heat sealed together would make a car or truck last 70 years. Admit it, scissors, axe, saw…that is tough stuff!
Watching with interest. What did you do to protect areas within the vehicle that cant be reached, but have been stripped to bare metal by the dip? As I understand, the dip has stripped everything back to bare metal and will give a short term chemical protection, but would require sealing for the long term?
I use an undercoat gun with a wand to get into the hidden areas. I've used some hardware store primer mainly for the cost vs. epoxy. That's the time consuming factor of acid dipping over blasting. Dipping is by far more thorough but has some extra steps involved. Like he mentioned, the blasting already has the mechanical bond but doesn't do anything to neutralize interior rust. Yeah, sand sucks when painting. Especially rolling on a rotisserie.
@@class5bodyworks Yes sir I have tried sandblasting floors and such in a car and that damn sand gets everywhere. Years ago I worked in an electric motor rebuilding facility and of course beings the low man on the totem pole my first job was sandblasting the parts of the motor frame and end bells and such as the motors used an industrial coating and the only way to get it off was by sandblasting. Nasty work but it was applicable to the job. We are talking heavy cast iron stuff here and of course we had what was called an agee dip that would get in and clean everything out as well and we steam cleaned the parts (not pressure wash but steam clean). Of course to get everything good and dry we had a big oven to dry out all the moisture.
makes life so much easier i have the boltable panels dipped, eng bay blasted but strip the main shell with soda, paint stripper or mechanical sanding my concern was always not being able to get in the chassis rails and boxed sections i have used 3M cavity wax with 360 hose but not sure if there is a better way to protect those areas if being dipped?.. great video again
@@angelonikitaras2977 I've used the VP2050 Sly mentioned just reduced way down. It works but I really like to save it for the outside due to cost . Same with DP90LV. So I started using something off the shelf.
Very informative, however I can't seem to find any information about how you treat inside the panels after dipping? Basically you have raw steel that you'll never be able to re-treat.
I find this question often but most don’t know that these areas are 99% of the time rusty and bare to begin with. We shoot epoxy down in these areas best we can get
It’s a hard no for me. The water that makes it wet mixed with the sand turns to concrete inside all the the inner panels. Then if it gets wet overtime it will cancer it out. Lastly sand blasting will warp the entire car
@@SYLVESTERSCUSTOMS according to the developers of the wet sand blasting process, it's not supposed to warp the metal since the water has a cooling effect and also when you do it properly, ( don't aim it straight on) you will not see any warping. But I would have to agree with the residual sand that would be hard to get cleaned out.
what about the insides of the rockers, quarters, the seams of the the panels welded together, etc.. how are you going to keep it rusting from the inside were you cannot get a coating on it? The acid has completely stripped all the coating away, so the panels welded together have no corrosion protection? I know there is cavity wax, but the seams of the panels welded together wouldnt it start rusting in between the seams?
We are currently working on a solution to that actually. Most of those seams already have surface rust. Cancer really happens when debris build up stays wet to cause rot. Once we find a product we will share it. It won’t be cavity wax.
Good stuff here, thanks, You say we can acid 1 section at a time and focus on that, can I use muriatic acid for a few minutes then neutralize it with...? Can you please shed some light on how that is done safely. Nobody out here does acid dipping, only sandblasting and me too are not a fan of that. Have a truck cab that has to many buried areas that are impossible to access.
You can get special nozzles to stick down in rockers and you can only do the best you can do you have to remember 99% of most of these cars are rusty inside of these areas and they never get coded with anything to begin with so to clean everything out is a step in the right direction
FWIW it's not that hard to blast a car to bare metal without warping panels, even large roofs. Semi local guy does a couple a week for all the area resto/hot rod/ muscle car builders. Sand falling out is a possibility, but so is chemicals bleeding out from seams/pinchwelds. priming the cavities, finishing the interior/trunk, etc and using a liquid paint mask does a pretty good job of keeping the sand down. its not a big deal/difficult to get it in epoxy after having it blasted, and you don't have to worry about acid, or adhesion.
RU-vid channel "my friend Pete" says that acid dipping car can thin the sheet metal so bad that car racing guys do that on purpose to make their cars lighter😹😹😹😹🤣. He swears acid, dipping a car is the worst thing a guy can do.
You know what the hell you are talking about thats for sure. I have a project that is covered in rust and a former porsche restoration guy told me the acid dipping process is not worth it. His point was how difficult it is to remove the traces of the acid in the various channels underneath of the car. Is this really an issue?
Thank you. Only if you don’t neutralize the acid. The guy I had do it is Probly one of the best in the business. After seeing it in person it has no leakage from the seams it looks amazing.
We just had a 68 F100 dipped and was neutralized afterwards. It had about a one or two week window to coat the bare metal. Only down side I've seen is traces of rust left in between flanges. Not sure if it was left in the tank long enough as they were busy at that time. Only way to clean this out is to separate every panel. Not sure of that's the best option.
was wondering what kind of budget was set for project like that my car was painted 3 times that i can tell gold green and i panted it blue in 1983 i was just going to sand down probably what till spring live in north east pa. be cold and damp till then played with body work 40 years ago but lots of new products since then so trying to pay attention thanks love watching
@@SYLVESTERSCUSTOMS kind of curios about both iam guy that found chevelle after 38 year moneys not my biggest problem just like to get done and drive again before iam dead live in mountains most body shops i know of fix deer damage insurance work think i could get done faster working on it myself never thought i would find it and dident plan on having a big project but just had to buy car back again
Is there anyone here in So. CA that can do "the dip"?? I'm sure they've all been run out of state. OR seems like a long way to go to get this done. What were the costs involved just to get it up there and back?
so i have some small areas on rockers that has epoxy on it. Can i fill tiny holes with kitty hair over epoxy within window or it has to be over metal surface? will it stick to epoxy like bondo does?
Whether it’s in the window or not I won’t recommend filler of any kind to go on without mechanical adhesion. But if you scuff it you can go over epoxy.
@@SYLVESTERSCUSTOMS I put the Tamco 662 epoxy 1st then 5310. I wanted 2050 but hard to find. i think i will wait 2 weeks before starting filler. I was trying to find your video on how to find dents on a E coat new panel or roof after 1st coat of epoxy. Was the grit on the long block 320 with a lite touch? Also why the hell is my rings falling off my Linear 24 inch flex? Just the ends weird. Might of used it a dozen times, V=Cannot find a phone number to call.. ty
After watching this video, had a local South Carolina acid dipper quote me $2600 to dip just the tub of a 2000 jeep wrangler. This was the tub ONLY, no tailgate, doors, front fenders, windshield, grille or hood. Higher than expected, does that seem about right?
@@SYLVESTERSCUSTOMS because some of section have been repaired with filler but mostly bare metal so I was just wondering instead of removing the filler I can just paint over it
@@mrregal5662 Well, he did say it was a 1-of-500 or so car, so it could be a bodystyle most guys haven't seen before. It does have the proper triple taillights for an Impala, though.
A good sand blaster who knows what he's doing won't warp the metal, and it won't cost you 3k. That's ridiculous. Soda blasting works even better, doesn't remove the e coat, and rinses away with water. Maybe you should talk to actual professionals!
I’ve watched many of these videos. FYI commentator spend too much time talking. Get to the point. People lose interest with a long dialogue just get to the point. I love see classic cars being restored. Please cut out extras. Talking
@@jamesbarnes7045 this car is for an owner with sentimental value. Not me either but to each their own he will never sell the car and he’s happy so whatever pays the bills
