@ Hey! Great question that I meant to address in the video and spaced on. They claim a 20% decrease in drag, for a couple of reasons: -the way the new through-axle/axle/bearings interface, there is less flex in the system, so less binding -there is less drag on the pawls, since when freewheeling, only one is touching at a given moment, instead of three I also experienced a decrease in drag. No way for me to personally quantify if it was 20%, but they do their research and I'd believe that in a lab setting that's the case. Cheers- Dan at Fanatik
The number of pawls that are engaged at one time. If light load only 1, as more load causes flex, more pawls (3 or 4) engage to fight/distribute the torque load. The pawls are the dragon heads.
As a professional Bike Mechanic that regularly builds custom wheelsets for clients, I must say that I really appreciate the straight forward, honest, and most importantly proper info given to consumers in this video. Good job guys. Side note, my personal wheelsets are i9 Torches/Enve's on my Road bike and a set of Onyx/Blunt SS on my Touring bike. That being said, I can understand people's arguments for Hopes/DT Swiss as far as value and reliability, but honestly nothing tops a wheelset with proper engagement. It's like buying crap vs quality tires. the best investment you can make in a bike is rubber and hubs, they will give you the most noticeable and largest performance gains and make your bike (subjectively) 10x more enjoyable. Also, as stated in the video, it's WAY more important on a mountain bike than anything else, huge difference. Support these guys! Also HUGE +1 to i9 for the quieter hubs. Now you can literally split the difference between Torches and Onyx sound-wise, and get a hubset a half a pound lighter if you're a weight weanie. /thumbs
Oh man, I really appreciate the feedback, especially coming from someone in the industry. Much appreciated. And thanks for the personal insight as well! Best, Dan at Fanatik
It's weird for a professional mechanic to pick something such as this hub really and not say DT Swiss which require less maintenance, are even easier to maintain, and are generally of higher quality and noticeably more consistent and more reliable both due to that quality and due to it's design. This is the first time I've heard mechanic saying they chose Industry Nine, it's almost exclusively reserved for fashion/bling builds. My mechanic just said "no, go DT, preferably with exp" - which is by very, very far the most winning and highest performing hub in existence, for the last decade taking basically all XC wins, last 3 gold medals, last 3 silver medals, last 3 bronze medals , etc. So your "but honestly nothing tops a wheelset with proper engagement" provenly does not work. Very weird for professional mechanic.
@@NiohNiohYT It's weird that a person who ISN'T a professional is somehow criticizing a completely valid and experienced opinion based on heresay from their mechanic, with absolutely no proof what-so-ever. First. I didn't 'choose' I9. I own multiple wheelsets with Onyx original, Onyx Vesper, DT Swiss 350s with 180 internals, and I9 Torch. I have ridden all of them thousands of miles. Can your mechanic say the same? I'm not basing my opinion off of industry jargon, slogan, and marketing, but rather, 1st hand experience. None of these hubs have proven 'less reliable' in everyday circumstances. DT Swiss are easy to maintain, they are just simple, enough said. Onyx are as reliable, come with NOTICIBLY lower drag, at the cost of weight and being slightly more complicated. I have ridden Onyx through thousands of miles of FOOT deep snow. The only time I had to maintain one was after 6 months of salt and icey road conditions. I9 is whatever. If I had to 'choose' I will support Onyx until the end of time, they make a much better product. (not to mention it's a single dude working out of his own factory, not some giant conglomerate that can purchase peoples opinions) If I need to build cheaper swap out wheelsets? I build with DT. As far as 'winningest'. DT has money, a lot of it. They are on every racers bike because they have agreements with bike brands so they get auto'd onto racers bikes. It's that simple. There is nothing wrong with DT at all, but they have money to market and buy people, simple enough. Case in point: There has been multiple independent wind tunnel and subjective tests for what wheels are actually 'the best'. Companies like HED and ENVE always come out on top of actual aerodynamics at greater wind pitch, and subjectively always feel better. Yet somehow Specialized is always "The best", "The most winningest" and on the most professionals bikes. Why? Because they are near the largest bike company in the world and have the money to put every racer they want on their gear. I own multiple S-works bikes, their stuff is good, their wheels are objectively not 'the best' and this points to your entire argument of DT is somehow the best. This isn't even to mention that professional racers aren't necessarily using consumer gear, they get all the fancy under development stuff. Lastly, I was a US Olympic Gold medalists personal mechanic for years. I have ridden tens of thousands of miles on these products, can your mechanic claim any of this? Get off your BS Fanboy high horse, Other people can have opinions different and maybe even MORE valid than yours without having to deal with your trash trolling.
Pro tip: Buy a hub with as many points of engagement as you possibly can. Then buy ceramic bearings to compensate for the increased loss of energy. Save a bit of money to change the bearings every ten miles or so. Then finally buy some oversized pulleys to shift some rolling resistance to the outer rims because that heats up your chain resulting in more driving comfort.
Nope 😂 I run DT ratchet hubs with 60t and I swap the stock bearings for skf's when they are worn out, every 4 yrs or so. Clean the old and put a new dab of grease every month or so they'll last forever. Pawls are trash
Great review guys... really loved the detail! As a 220lb rider, I just can't get my head wrapped around the whole "1 pawl engages, then maybe 2-4 more if there's enough flex at the time you put the power down" thing..... I'm picturing random pops, creeks and groans as each pawl "flexes" into place under force.... Gonna have to wait a while to hear some long term reviews from some bigger dudes before I buy.... Love the new sound though! Way better than that old, crazy buuuuzzzzz.
ThunderStruckCoach I'm a lighter rider than most at 150lbs but I run white industries hubs and I have heard from others that they are really strong as well
Cool dude. It was interesting, "up to four pawls engage". I was really wondering about that. It's a cool concept because it literally won't slip, just more pawls will engage. Neat stuff.
ONYX Vesper hubs for me. Instant engagement and silent. I have Torch on my cross bike and can't wait for them to fail so I can build up a wheelset for that bike with ONYX hubs too.
Same, been riding my bontys for the last year with no issues. Looking to get King hubs or Hydras for my next hardtail build, but seems like everyone is always contradicting the claims they each make. Almost tempted to throw on another pair of bontys and call it a day
I ran those hubs back in 2006ish first release, literally every fucking rider at the Whistler bike park said WTF. BOOM, angry bee was born!!! I just bought Hydra after 15 years on the same Torch hubs incredible!!!!
Biggest downside to a super high POE hub is it doesn't sound cammed out haha. I love the sound of my 350 with 54 tooth rings and no grease. Awesome video
Awesome video, you spoke to all the points I'd naturally wonder about. You remind me of an engineer (which I am as well) the way you spoke about springs, mass, distance, flex for more pawl contact, weights of oils affecting sounds and etc. I like Industry Nine's improvements the fact they are continuing to innovate. I recently got some Onyx Racing hubs though, I don't see how I could ever switch from them.
The thing that started to bother me about Onyx is that all the weight it adds is un-sprung. After my time riding the Zerode Taniwha (we reviewed that too), I realized how much of a difference that actually makes. Thanks for the comment. I've often thought that if I can't swing it in the bike industry, I'll go back to school for engineering. Best, Dan at Fanatik
Mitchell MTB 36 tooth was totally fine, but the 54 tooth definitely felt different, and it did boost my confidence on tricky sections. I also bought it for the sound haha
about 50 -70 points of engagement is enough. any more friction is unecessary. remember that mtb suspension generally works better when you go chainless ;) my 2c.
(nerd comment) the word Hydra actually means water. there's an island called Hydra, there's a small freshwater organism called Hydra. But the monster was called Lernaean Hydra, and it had 9 heads (οr such is the prevailing view). great hub though, and thnx for the video!
the old touch works just fine if u already have it. i bet very few people will really make full use of the hydra engagement i mean for most people who just ride for fun etc. however its a new blink to the collection if you're willing to shoot out the cash thou.
There's actually less drag in the Hydra then the torch - and the torch didnt have a lot of drag. This is due to the force of the leaf springs being much less than the coil springs plus shallower teeth.
@RollinRat Loud exhaust are only annoying to ppl who don't like engine sound. same goes for everything else that makes noise. I simply like the noise and would like to be able to hear it over the wind when driving fast. Looking at industry nine who use oil or grease with different thicknesses to tune the noise i think it's fine to use a pretty light oil. Atleast on the touching surfaces. I also don't like to have cowbell noise all the time😅 I have had ppl laughing from hearing my ball Horn (not sure if that's the right therm in english) LoL Dangerous Interactions with wildlife atleast here in germany aren't a concern most of the time. And with the noise and ppl... Because of headphone users and them being ignorant to where they walk i would sometimes need something truck horn loud when driving in the city 🤯😬
i have the QR 135mm Torch hub used had to replace the axle bearings --very Gritty , freehub bearigs seem ok . as for LUBE using "SUPER LUBE "Grease - Fully Synthetic and very Quiet
I'd really love to see an Onyx vs. Hydra video. I love my Onyx hubs due to the utter absence of drag, instant engagement, and silent drive. But the weight is pretty crazy and the Hydras are very enticing. And I absolutely cannot wait for you to deliver my Push Industries equipped Offering! Nice job on the videos again.
Thanks Dave! That bike is gonna be rad. The new Vesper version of the Onyx hub is notably lighter, but still heavier than the Hydra hub or something like the DT Swiss 240. Just depends on your priorities! Cheers, Dan at Fanatik
Sounds like an electric motor--supposed to be less drag too...I have DT XRC 1200 with the 54 tooth upgrade on a 2016 Focus Raven max SL hardtail, sounds cool and its all I or probably anyone needs, comes with the 36, only the lower end wheels like 1900 have the 18 tooth
I'm not convinced at all. I'm very sceptical about a system that relies on flexion of such a small part as a pawl. Also, you said you can have up to 4 pawls engaged? I wouldn't trust a system that isn't consistent throughout each cycle of use. I have an I9 road hub and a Dt swiss hub with the 54t ratchet and they have always been faultless. In my opinion, they could have used the same level of engagement like they had with the 3 out of 6 pawls that were engaged but with a 115 points ring. That would have been amazing as well since the 120 points was already more than enough. As for the sound, more noise is better! Light grease it is.
Fair enough on the noise. Regarding durability, it's sort of silly to try and debate it. They tested the heck out of this, both in the lab and in the field (eg the hubs I have), and they have shown that they are more durable than the torch hubs. As they say, seeing is believing, and I believe it. Thanks for watching! Dan at Fanatik
Less engaged points mean you can transfer less torque until fault. You should be sure how many points of engagement you have. Reliance on flex is quite a lottery too. You will never have two identical parts. It is impossible. You say about lab test. To be honest i wouldn’t trust them. You never ride in perfect conditions. There is a lot of variables in real live. You say that pawls are smaller and lighter too. For me everything in this is kinda will work or no. They are producing too expensive parts for this :/.
yea mass marketing machining of the driver and paws could be an issue due to the tight tolerances - i could see durability issues when not just 150lb dan rides but the 250lb jeff lenosky rides them
The sound when you spin the cassette back is very spacey scifi ufo, no? I really want to have the 720 point system for solid techy rock garden engagement. Bring on the butteryness.
@@TheTaytoni I also would love to hear some folks chime in with unbiased real-world experiences with both the Onyx and Project 321 hubs. I just threw down for a beautiful set of hubs from Onyx. Haven't built them up yet so I can't speak about the performance and durability. What I can say is they're beautifully constructed and a tad heavy. I was seduced by the sprag clutch design and sacrificed weight for the stock equipped ceramic bearings, low drag, and the silence. Dan here at Fanatik gives them high marks. The only negative I have heard so far is the weight.
@@ticklefritz5406 I have i9 Torches and Onyx on my two bikes. I had torches long before my Onyx but my Onyx have seen a few thousand miles in the last year as they are on my daily rider. I live in the Midwest and commute year round, so the bike sees salt and snow on a daily basis this time of year. The Onyx spin and look as if they are brand new still. Extremely reliable and solid 'af'. I loved my Torches, but mounted on a deep Carbon road rim they are the most annoying, incredibly loud, sound to man. You can literally hear my road bike 2 blocks away. I dislike that, personally. Other than the sound, they have also been totally reliable. It really only comes down to preference. The Onyx are 1/2 lb. heavier and silent. One thing I can say that was actually surprising to me, considering understanding how a sprag clutch works I thought they would have a tad more drag since the races are essentially always touching. I was dead wrong, my Onyx will spin for 5 mins at least before slowing down. Regular steal bearings, it's pretty amazing.
@@unlearningify Thanks David! Did you need to adjust the preload on the ONYX after a bit? Mine out of the box seem a bit sticky. I'm hoping after a little break in period they'll roll on and on. Laughing with your comment on the sound of the Torches. I was never one to appreciate a card in my spokes.
Who's revving their engine? This is a hard work and guts MTB event, no engines allowed! In seriousness, I can't imagine these being extremely durable. If I wanted instantaneous engagement, I would try to get a clutch-type freehub like Onyx.
@@FanatikBikeCo That's good to hear. I watched a video explaining how the hydra actually has the load spread over multiple pawls when under torque. Fascinating!
So, it's actually 1 point of 'engagement' as only one pawl is engaged at any one time. Quicker engagement when you put the foot down, but DT 18 point is actually 18 simultaneous contact points. Much better.
I guess that depends on how you define "engagement" and how you define "better." The first is pretty objective, and in this case, using the industry standard definition, it does in fact have 690 points of engagement per rotation. The second is very subjective, and if the 18 simultaneous points of engagement of the DT hubs are what you want, then you're right, they're better than Hydra's two or three. I agree that DT's system is really clever - I love those hubs. Cheers - Dan at Fanatik
Hi Dan how are your wheels now? I was wondering if one poles engagement is a smart way of having a 690 points of engagement is just waiting for a pole to fail quicker as the power will go down on the one pole first.
Great question! They are actually doing very well. I throw some extra grease in there every few months to keep them quieter, but other than that I haven't done anything! Cheers - Dan at Fanatik
@@FanatikBikeCo Hi Dan what you think about the durability of hydra comparing with other hubs ( lower engagement ) do pawls break easier ? , plus service and maintenance duration how often, if you again compare with other hubs ( DT swiss 240 service cycle ), also how about cost for service them. Then is drag, do you feel the difference going down hill or pedaling on flat ? more pedaling strokes required ? and pedal kickback ? Thanks
@@richcain5127 Oh, I don't know. I see what you mean, but if you consider that they released Torch in 2013, it makes sense that they would have started to think on something new. Also, they took an absolutely phenomenal hub and succeeded in making it better in multiple ways, all the while only increasing the price by only $50. I think it was worth their while! Either way, thanks for watching - Dan at Fanatik
Ya, but whats the attack angle or ingaugment angle on the pauls. I have found that the attack angle allows a more reliable fell when in use on the trails.
::coughproject321cough:: lol obviously hydra now beats out P321 but they were higher engagement up to this point 👍 and now only 1.1 degrees separate the two companies.
And at around a 50 tooth cassette cog that 1.1 deg translates to roughly 3mm. Less than .5mm at the smallest cassette cog. Not enough difference to actually feel *BUT* my point is only to say that there are good options for those who want hi engagement point hubs. I like options.
@@PedalingDave definitely agree, when i was doing my wheel build for my new bike i was all over the place. A large factor for me though is a quieter hub so at the time P321 and onyx where my top picks. If Hydra was out 6 months ago it possibly could a strong contender as IMO it has a much more pleasant sound vs the torch version.
The only dealbreaker on those P321s is the lack of Centerlock. They've been hinting since before their recent move to OR that they might do their hub in Centerlock, so these might be in my future.
@Won Honglo Fakie is landing backwards... So, instant engagement means you have to start spinning your cranks backwards as soon as you land.. some low engagement hubs helps by adding delay to when you NEED to pedal backwards.
Fanatik Bike Co. None. Planning a 29” Bassett BMX Swooper frame build but I would prefer MTB parts for drivetrain including wheels but with street tires. I want gears, plain and simple. I would like to ride my oversized BMX up the hills here in West Hollywood and surrounding area. Am I barking up the wrong tree with this build? I want something sturdy, fun and unique to ride around my awesome city.
But will it survive on a trials bike. I blew up a hope pro 2 trials evo doing pedal kicks they gave me a pro 4 for the price difference no issues so far. 1 pawl does not sound great when i have blown up 9 pawl freewheels.
Sorry, but you guys ruined me for light and noisy hubs. I'll never give up my Onyx hubs. Instant engagement is indescribably nice on the super tech climbs here in ABQ. And the silence is golden.
You would have to rebuild the wheel, it's not a great solution because it would involve substantial labor. My suggestion would be to sell your current wheel and build a single new one, which you have the option of doing in our Builder: www.fanatikbike.com/products/wheel-builder
o god no. that noise would drive me nuts. i'll take the clicky clicky. also larger bearings...not like tires, contact area is still a point. why not use needle bearings?
I'm not an engineer, but I'd guess that because roller bearings can only handle radial loads, they would not be suitable for a bicycle wheel, which is also dealing with some amount of axial loads. Also, roller bearings have a lot more friction. Cheers, Dan at Fanatik
I just got my carbon reserves with hydra hubs there not as loud as some of the videos I've Hurd does it take a little bit of riding before they break in and get louder
That sound test is lame. When I put fresh dumonde grease on my torch freehub it’s quite like that too. The problem is the noise quickly grows louder as the grease wears. Demonstrating the sound with a freshly grease is misleading.
You're right - my intent was to put fresh grease in there, but that was the last part we filmed and I was in a big rush by that point :/ I rationalized it because the Torch wheel is almost new (handful of rides), but yes, it's not a perfect comparison. At least it gives you an idea of what the Hydra ones are like - and they are in fact quieter than torch. Best, Dan at Fanatik
Oh hey I just realized something you may find helpful. At the very, very beginning of the video I spin the Hydra wheel. For that clip the driver and free-hub were 100% clean, no grease at all - it was before I put that Dumondetech grease in there, and I had cleaned it to better be able to see everything. So, that sound is louder than it would ever be in real-world use, since you'll always be running at least a light oil in there. You can compare that to the greased sound at this part of the video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-xdWN_UCoc-I.html Hopefully that's helpful. Best, Dan at Fanatik
Needs to be loud if you ride busy trails and want ppl to know you are behind them without risking them thinking you are being a dick or panicking when you ask politely if you can pass.
I too got Pro4 hub, but I definitely come into situations where more engagement would be nice. but for easier riders it's not a big deal. but I will eventually upgrade, but my first priority is build a new bike. but might go for I9 maybe Onyx I odn't know yet for sure, but I9 will be lighter I think so probably I9.
I just bought a 2023 Trek Roscoe 7. Can I take the rear wheel and buy this hub, and have the “old” hub removed and replaced with this hub? Can same rim/spokes be reused?
Unfortunately its not that easy. You usually can't reuse old spokes and nipples with a different hub. A full wheel rebuild would be in order to swap to a hydra hub
I like lyric because it’s red, I do not like whole wheat bread, I don’t want to go to bed, Maxxis assegais that I have had for about 2 weeks already have no tread,
Not at this point, no. There isn't a way to reliably remove the old drive-ring, since it tightens itself down as you ride, in some cases it is not possible to remove. It wouldn't be feasible on a large scale. That said, you'd have to purchase the majority of a new hub, so it wouldn't be a massive savings.
This is going to lead to moderate to long term failures due to the "flex" in the system. Flex =torsion on the axle at around the freehub area above and beyond previous pawl designs due to acute stress on parts rather than even stress over the whole freehub assembly at any given time. Sounds like premature wear to me. Explain to me that I have this wrong.
Okay. There was never even stress on the system, and there never will be. It's all coming from a point tangential to the axle - the chain. The forces involved have not changed. To add to that, this hub has been tested through and through, both in the lab and in the field (eg the hubs I have), and they have shown that they are more durable than the torch hubs. Best, Dan at Fanatik
I though loud hubs were cool, but not that i have one, i wish i had a quiet one. Loud hubs are like after market exausts to make your motorbike louder, just a generally annoying.
@@obi-wankenobi9871 fart cans on cars are nothing but generally annoying, at least loud pipes serve to make people aware of your bike when splitting lanes or driving in traffic
Fanatik Bike Co. Small engagement points = low surface area which also means less friction so more slipping pawls. Also add grease which makes the points even shallower. Also the small points will sheer off easier under high load. Also add the flex into the mix and if it can flex on a horizontal axis it can also flex on a vertical axis. This will also lead to issues in the longevity of the hub as the flex will place other components in the hub under more stress creating more weak points in an already fragile hub.
@@dat_boii_at76 I'd agree with some of this, except that in practice it hasn't been true. Obviously it's new to market, so we'll see if that remains true on a large scale, but this product has undergone a lot of testing both in the lab and in the field (the set I had was in the field for over a year). Regarding the first point, it's not friction that's engaging the pawls. I understand what you mean, but again, it's just not something I've encountered. I've heard of the teeth on high engagement DT ratchet rings shearing off, but never on a high quality pawl driven hub. We'll see if it happens here, but again, I'm doubtful, based on the testing done. They've accounted for the flex, and if I remember what I9 said correctly, it is actually less than in the Torch system. It is also happening in a system with larger bearings, which are better able to manage it. I disagree that it's a fragile hub. I've put my Torch hubs through huge amounts of abuse, and this set of Hydra hubs has seen more than it's fair share of thrashing. Best, Dan at Fanatik
