petersonelectr... - At a home wired in the 50's that had 2 prong outlets and no grounds. Showing you that a GFCI, if not put in every single opening, is not protected. Call Us: 970.599.1872
Can you explain how your test proved your point. You never showed the GFCI afterward to show if it tripped. Did the gfci work or could someone be electrocuted. And does this mean that the 2020 NEC 406.4 (2) (c) is wrong?
The spark was the proof. You would have been shocked and the circuit trips at the panel but you still get shocked. If the outlet worked you would not trip the circuit or see a spark. Just like you did not see a spark when he tripped the outlet directly.
@@okaro6595 people say that if a GFI is at the front of a line then when said GFI trips it will keep juice from running to the rest of the line. If that was the case the 2nd receptacle should have been dead but it wasn't that is why it sparked.
Great videos, really enjoy them. Could you please do something with your banner. sometimes it is in the way of what you are showing. Keep up the great shows.
@@CortexGaming 3:33 his face grimaced twice, he stood up and looked like he had to go take a dump or something... when he shorted the outlet he may have shorted himself too... either way it was worth nearly 4 min of my existence...😂
I think you don't quite understand what a GFCI does. It is not a breaker. It monitors how much power is on the hot and neutral. If they are out of balance it will trip. It will not (should not) trip when the hot and neutral are shorted as there is no loss of current to ground it may be a direct short and pull too many amps but as far as the GFCI is concerned all is well and the breaker will take care of the overloaded circuit.
What's scary is an "Electrician" (trained, certified, and all) doesn't understand what a GFCI does and what makes it different from a circuit breaker. Also it looks like that house wiring is being upgraded, why not add in the ground line to go with the 3-prong outlets?
Inside a GFCI, current sensing does not include the ground conductor. A GFCI simply measures the difference between hot current and neutral current. Therefore if some current passes through a piece of equipment or a human to ground, the neutral current decreases and trips the GFCI. So you have to test it not by tripping the circuit on current, but by tripping the circuit with external leakage to ground. The ground conductor must never pass current. It is only there as a reference point for protection.
Exactly. I am thinking a lot of people, including some electricians misunderstand exactly what a GFCI actually does. Jumper a wire around the Line OR Load side terminals of the actual GFCI and the exact same thing will happen. Not sure what to make of this video...lol
First off I wouldn't rely on a GFI to save my life. I would have to go over the patent design (years ago I wasn't impressed), the components inside one and hope it's not Chinese and calibrated to 6mA (which is still too high). I agree with you and MrHetero Erectus. That being said, I think that there are MANY areas where a GFI could fail you under the perfect conditions. I worked in a factory on a dual voltage machine. First off the wire harness was marked Neutral, Ground and Line2 on the same wire. The machine did not have a ground to the control panel, and a worker laid a 220v 60A line inside and plugged it in. The breaker did not trip bc the machine was not grounded BUT the steel case was live. I refused to work there. The company came in and rewired a GFI into the breaker (LAW) and threw in an ammeter but neglected to properly tie in both sides L1 and L2 so they are only measuring 1 load. The machine is on a pallet (no ground) and the pallet sits on a conveyor that's 60 years old. What's my point? GM comes down from the office with the entourage. The rollers on the line don't have continuity (no ground) pallets etc.He said ETL Intertek approved the machines on the basis they tested our hipots and everything is good! The pieces of shit should be globally recalled for numerous reasons. STAMPED ETL INTERTEK UNION MADE ENERGY STAR. Sometimes people who design things don't test or understand the way people who FIX OTHER PEOPLES PROBLEMS. In my case I got a pile of money to walk away and NOT CARE! Sometimes I get a kick watching electricians get really messed up with simple shit cause they know CODE but not electricity. The whole issue of GFI, IMHO is to give ppl a false sense of security. Sure the GFI trips when you direct short it but how about a nice slow current leak after the load? A short can burn a house down and never blow a fuse or trip a breaker.
@@maxwebster7572 I think it's misconception that circuit breakers, GFCI's, and other gadgets installed in wiring are safeties to protect the careless. While they CAN do so, their main purpose is to protect from electrical faults. They aren't idiot protection devices, a clever idiot can still easily get hurt.
The only possible explanation is that this GFCI is also acting as an overload circuit breaker when the hot and neutral wires are shorted out. In order to test the ground fault capabilities of the GFCI requires the presence of a ground of some sort. In a 2 wire house, shorting the hot wire to an Earth ground connection should cause the GFCI to trip. The only solutions to give the GFCI a ground would be to rewire that branch circuit to give it a ground wire back to the outside electrical box neutral or put in a third wire that goes to an Earth ground.
I don't know about all cities Electrical Codes but in St Louis you can actually replace a two prong electrical outlet with a 3 prong outlet but you have to label them no ground then they pass inspection no problem
Joseph Atnip: No, most US states have adopted the NEC which strictly prohibits that. Your ungrounded 3-prong receptacle must be supplied through a GFCI and labeled as such, plus "No Equipment Ground". 406.4(D)(2)(c).
Excellent videos, very informative. Thank you. Feedback: They are a little hard to see everything in though because of the business banner at the bottom.
So in summary every outlet needs a GFCI if you want protection in an ungrounded house? Or can the first outlet in the circuit have a GFCI then it protects the downstream outlets? I seen you shorted a down stream outlet but did it trip the GFCI?
OK,GUYS,here's your problem;I am an old person,on soc.sec.my old 50's house needs to be GROUNDED.;my DAD BUILT OUR HOUSE.He was very brilliant,but in the 50's,here,you could do it---OR ELSE BE HOMELESS(its called "get cancer, lose all your real house,land,to doctors' bills"in the 50's)so he literally built our new house.(we did not have electricity,bathroom, or heat in it,at first.)We were POOR.MOST people in Oregon were poor( now we are all poor except for the RICH HERE.)I NEED THIS PLUMBING GROUNDED.so the roto-rooter guy does not get FRIED.DO I just get the plumbing ALONE get grounded?HOW?this house is not up to "code".HAVE FUN WITH IT.;) THANX!--Old lady in Eugene OR
GFCI's detect imbalance between the hot and neutral. They won't trip on a short or overload between the terminals. That's the circuit breaker's job. GFCI's trip when current is 'unaccounted for', as when you touch the hot and current flows through you to ground rather than back through the GFCI's neutral. To test them without a wired ground, you'd need to short hot to earth or a neutral outside the GFCI.
I do not get what you thought you proved. IMO the GFCI worked just like it was supposed to. When you tripped it the load side receptacle went dead as it should go.
I just purchased a very good condition house build in the 1950's with only two wire wiring for very cheap because no one wanted to buy the house. I bit the bullet and I am going to rewire the house myself and have it inspected. This is how you save big money.
Your statement is absolutely correct but your test didn’t demonstrate your point. By shorting L and N together you simply tested the circuit breaker and not the GFCI. The point of a ground wire is to protect against an event where the live wire L makes it’s way to the metal housing of an appliance. In that event if the appliance isn’t grounded then you will get an electrical shock by touching the metal housing. A ground wire creates a low resistance path from the housing back to neutral resulting into tripping the breaker. A similar protection can be achieved with a GFCI receptacle and without a ground wire. The few GFCI spec sheets I have reviewed have a trip threshold of 5mA +/-1mA. That threshold is the current mismatch between what’s coming out of L and what’s going back in N. So back to the previous example, if L ends up connecting to the housing of the appliance in a system without a ground wire, and the user touches the appliance. Current will start flowing from L thru the hosing thru the human body to ground. At 5mA the GFCI will trip. So the real test for you is to create a current leakage to earth ground without returning that current to N. If you’re on the second floor and no where near concrete this may be a hard test to do. Good luck.
Does this mean you have to have 1 cfgi per circuit on the breaker box? And preferably put it on the outlet closest to the breaker. I couldn't really hear all that well
In this short video did you in fact realize that a GFI on the front end of a circuit did in fact protect the downstream outlets in your 1950 home remodeling from two prong receptacles to three prong receptacles?
Ok I'm not the only one. Like didn't he just show that when blowing out the non GFI outlet that it tripped the one up stream and in fact did protect from surge?
Looks to me that blowing out non GFI outlet doesn't trip the upstream. But blowing out GFI from inside the outlet will trip the downstream. Looks like at the end of the video when blowing out the downstream either blew a fuse or trip the breaker.
Here's something I can't seem to find an answer to. In an old trailer which has been wired in a million different spots/ways that makes it miraculous that it hasn't burnt down, both the 220v stove AND dryer were tapped/pigtailed together on one 40amp double breaker(which is bad enough as it is,,, but heres the big kicker!! BOTH have been running for YEARS off of 2 hots and a bare ground(black/white/ground 8/2 wire. And yes in the breaker the bare ground was connected to ground bar, so no it's not even bogus-ly being used and hooked up on neutral bar with no insulation. When I try researching this, everything says it WILL NOT work without a neutral(but the 3 prongs will work without a ground, and then using appliances neutral/ground bonds at the appliances only. So the stove and dryer were both working as if it were being wired like a 220v hot water heater(not all, but many/2 hots 1 bare ground/no neutral, as I gather most 220 water heaters don't use a 110 for anything, but stoves and dryers use 110 for parts of them). So now, if someone tells me the 2 hots and bare ground on stove/dryer could burn house/trailer down, I'd say yes probably sure could!! But when it's said that they just "wont/don't" work with that wiring, I'll say that's a lie. What I want to know is if the ground had been hooked up as if it was a neutral, has 110/220v been on and off flowing through the ground all the years?? And were the 110v parts of the stove/dryer actually running on 220v or something. And why have these things not broke/fried inside? I am no electrician, but I am trying to self educate myself as always, so I want to know how this has really been working like that for over 17 years, because this is my stepfathers trailer and he been here for around 17 years!!! And all this was screwed up wired before he ever moved here. But to clarify, I know for at least 5 years, that at the main panel box at pole, the bus bar was melted where the main 100amp breaker (that feeds the house breaker panel) was hooked up, and every once in a while, half the trailers power would cut off(educated guess is one of the 110s would still be flowing connection, while other 110 feed would lose connection, but if he flipped on dryer or stove, power would come back on, educated guess is the extra jolt of larger appliances trying to get power would send large jolt causing breaker to reconnect with the melted breaker panels bus bar??) It's all CRAZY!! The pigtailed wire running dryer was even running up through the actual old central air metal duct where a hole was cut for wire!! I don't wanna hear what "codes" say, or to be corrected with 110/220(120/240), or corrected with more specific terms of ground not being ground/neutral/common etc stuff. I jist want to know in basic english(not to advanced technically), what was this crazy hook up doing? And not asking for a "guess, answer, but is it why the main breaker was slowly melting the blades of the panel over all the years? Or I know of not having "grounds" before "codes" etc, but back in time, did they actually use the "bare ground" wire and feed back through panel box as if no biggie, because they didn't have the neutral wire present? Or is this something of some jack@$$ of all sloppy trades is guilty of?? Thanks in advance for any extra info on how this was working without blowing breakers/burning up appliances/burning down trailer etc.. Some of these questions I would almost need an actual appliance tech who knows how the internals work, someone else who's also worked on OLDER trailers houses and have seen the long term effects of bogus-wiring that actually worked for years, and an actual techy electrician who knows more than just "codes" and how things were wired before "codes", so it wouldn't just be about codes, but rather more about what will actually burn your house down. Sorry long comment, but there was no way to even remotely partially explain without commenting some of the situation lol. And I can not/WON'T check now with meter to see if the ground had 110/220 flowing through it. Installed a new outside panel, new 100amp breaker, moved and REWIRED dryer to shed outside with underground 10/3, and currently have no stove and cooking on grill until I can afford around 50ft of 8/3, and a FOUR prong cord and plug, because even though this "worked" as it was originally SCREWED up wired, not gonna start burning up a new panel/breaker or further chance of burning down this crap-hole of a trailer.
Are you saying that you need to put a GFCI receptacle in EVERY opening? that is totally incorrect. You just have to make sure you are properly using the line and load terminations.
Nope this video shows that a GFCI is not a device that is tripping correctly, the 50 year old breaker is tripping more frequently than the GFCI plug, besides, the room is finished, 210.8 is not needed, and if your looking at 406.6-12 when it talks about Grounding EGC- not being present in the circuit- Read I think most of the people who disagree with this video are missing to important codes. Please, for who every reads this and listens to the video, needs to "KEEP IN MIND" that this video was completed five years ago. It is now the 2017 code so that means we were in the 2011 addition during this video. In 2014 code the NEC Code book in article 250.130c finally allowed a separate EGC (electrical grounding conductor), (sized off of 205.122), grounding conductor to be ran outside of the jacket of the old BX or NM cable (two wire cables). Before the 2011 code it was practiced but frowned upon if you wired circuits without the bare or insulated grounding conductor... Keep in mind that it is not always easy to or able to, run a separate EGC conductor from another circuit or back from the sub panel or main load center. The code now talks about the means, of how to do it, and from where to pull it from and how to size it, ("BUT"), it does not talk about how to test the path you are using to the ground bar in a subpanel or load center. It does mention how to grab this from another circuit, "Branch", but it does not talk about how to test for impedance or resistance. I have typically seen the mistake of running a "Green" #12 or #14 solid conductor from one circuit to a water pipe or another branch circuit, or to another panel, but there was no Grounding Electrode Path or no forth wire conductor in an SE cable back to the main disconnect or panel. We have also seen that there was no electrode conductors installed on the main water shut off pipe, or UFER cement electrode and or any supplementary electrodes for two x 8' (5/8") ground rods and no intersystem bonding bridge bars. Read, 250.52-53, 250.64, 250.93..... Another good point, is that in 250.104c it talks about now grounding any gas pipes and other metal pipes. The only exception that I have found in the code to allow the connection between the neutral and the grounding connection (ON THE BACK SIDE OF A MAIN BONDING JUMPER IN THE MAIN DISCONNECT) is in article 422 for dryers and ranges. So, therefore the "cheaters" who use a small number #14 or #12 on an old house with the method of jumping the yoke of the device to the neutral of the branch circuit, is NOT ALLOWED> Infact, if the circuit goes bad on the (hot side) of a switch leg of a light fixture, than you are energizing the fixture. No grounding conductor to direct mis current flow. The last thing to keep in mind is the code in 406.1-12 under plugs and 404 under switches, communicates that in the 2011, 2014 and 2017 code we have been enforced to add AFCI (arc fault circuit protection) when we replace, modify or repair any plugs and or switches. I believe this can be unclear when the code is trying to describe an "opening". An opening is a smoke, dimmer, motion, timer, plug, switch, toggle, paddle, exhaust fan, ceiling fan, can light, puck light, transformer, co detector, pendent, mushroom, bar vanity, heat fan light combo kit, etc...... When we are improving the "TRUE SAFETY" of someone's property and we are exchanging monies for time and product, we are told in the newest NEC that we are to do this a new way, basically "upgrade" the circuit. The point of this video is that the OLD METHOD of "just" replacing the two prong plug with a three prong GFCI plug is ("NOT") the safest way and or the "MAXIMUM PROTECTION" that there is for the customer. ("IN MY OPINION") , I show in this video that a GFCI cannot trip only based on a fault between the undground (Hot) and grounded (Neutral) conductors. This home in the video was built in the 1950's and has "no signs" of remodels and branch circuits with EGC grounds and NO grounding electrode system conductors- 250.53. This "customer", (did not want) their home cut up to install a separate grounding conductor, we were in their basement and there is not pop up tile ceilings, and the house was on a slab, we had no choice on the matter. In the video, we are simple proofing that an old Murray (60 year old breaker) is tripping faster and more frequently than a NEW GFCI plug. Point being, what is so important about installing a GFCI plug in an area of the home that is not in relation to 210.8 for GFCI protection. The room has carpet, it is finished with drywall and has no water. This is OLD and SIMPLE Thinking, to keep stating what 406 talks about under two prong plugs has to go!!! The 2011 and 2014 code tells us about AFCI protection, but our AHJ and city officials have not pushed the code of AFCI protection on simple repairs and replacement of plugs and swtiches until now. The 2017 NEC CODE BOOK in article 210.12 B states that if we modify our cirucuits, or extend or replace we have to AFCI. WE NOW HAVE NOT EXCUSE, that we cannot find a AFCI / GFCI (Dual) plug. We also, have breakers (overcurrent protection) that allows us all three options, AFCI and GFCI and Overcurrent in a breaker switch protection. If the panel cannot fit or accept the newer breakers than we can trace and label the circuits and install the protection at the LINE SIDE OF THE EXISTING CIRCUIT> BUT, I still say, why not run an EGC conductor to help in this situation if you can cut drywall and or fish the EGC in. Bottom line, if we are not adding AFCI protection than there is a standard that we are not practicing by. This is not an easy process, but if we do not get past our concerns/fears and start to practice with better skills than we will not grow in our field. I have personally modified 14 homes in the last six years with TOTAL AFCI Protection, and in most cases upgraded the existing panels and also added ALUMINUM PIG-TAILING protection with new TR (tamper restive) and WR (water restive) devices. If the panels were too old, we than, also upgraded the service with the meter as a by-pass lever and added all electrode protection needed. (WITH PERMITS). Later, we have had to add EGC protection to the circuits that had electronics and or computers. Some cities were very hard on us to install all Smoke and CO detectors with three wire 110v feed devices in the NFPA 72, for homes. If you cannot add EGC grounds than protect first in the panel with a Dual breaker. If this is not possible, than protect with a Combo AFCI & GFCI plug, but if you do not have an EGC throughout the circuit than you need to install A DUAL PLUG, in every location, assuming your old metal boxes have the volume space in article 314. Personally i would parallel all my connections with pit-tailing, whether you have copper, aluminum or copper clad aluminum. MY POINT IS, (since i have been so challenged by this video) that if you are not AFCI protecting, updating grounding on EGC and Electrode System, and possible the service with a new main disconnect and by-pass lever, than you are not doing your job!!!! (unless, your city has a lower standard, but HERE IN COLORADO they are very complaint and enforce ALL NEW CODE UPDATES> Better protection, safer standards for the customer is in article 90, this is for the safety of lives and property. NO IF, ANDS OR BUTTS!
Hate to disagree, but you are showing the GFCI on the load side will not trip the GFCI unless it is grounded by shorting the neutral and hot out. That is a dead short, which is NOT what the GFCI is designed to protect against. You show that it will not trip if you go from the hot or the neutral to the ground terminal. Of course it will not trip. That is working exactly properly. The PURPOSE of a GFCI device is to look at the current flow of the neutral and the hot and make sure they are identical. If they are not, then it trips. It has NOTHING to do with a short between the neutral and hot. The ONLY way you can trip a GFCI is to have a second path of current flow other than the neutral. Of course you do not in your situation. But run to a second grounded source and the GFCI will trip just AS DESIGNED. It is sensing the current flowing in a direction other than how it should be and trips. The 3 wire receptacle you install, will not ever show a ground on a two wire system. It will however work the GFCI device EXACTLY as designed if the current flows somewhere other than back on the neutral. You are trying to make the GFCI an overcurrect protective device which it is ABSOLUTELY NOT.
@@mitchmaulik861 Yeah, I'm 3 years late but this guy is an absolute moron who doesn't know what a GFCI is for. A dead short from live to neutral is not causing a drop that would trigger it and it is not what the GFCI is designed to protect against. It's scary that so-called 'professionals' can just create a video and everyone just laps it up. Embarrassing, really.
No, I am saying that the code allows you to GFCI the ungrounded plug, but in another part of 406.12 you have too AFCI the plug or circuit. They do finally make a multi style of TR, GFCI and AFCI> TR is tamper resistive to protect children.
All you have to do is put AFCI/GFCI combo breakers on the circuits you plan to covert. If you do so i recommend using self testing breakers. You might also want to put stickers sating that their is no equipment ground Ive only been called out by one inspector for this, most don't care.
This is true, assuming the customer wants us to replace the panel. Her panel was very old, from the early 60's. They did not want us to upgrade the service, we gave them a bid but not interested. It is difficult to convince someone to see it is a good investment if they are staying there. Some people think that your trying to up-sell them and usually their partner or spouse are not there to see what you are stating. Electricity is not a vehicle that they can test drive, so if they can not visual it then it is not always easy to win their sale, for safety.
Yes it is IF your home wiring system has a ground wire thruout .Needs a ground to work properly. otherwise it works like a breaker for each outlet that you have a GFI outlet installed .Without a ground the downstream outlets are not protected by the upstream GFI outlet BUT it will trip the braker in the panel..Just not as quick..Could be a real bad day for the recipient of a shock.
@@ricks88sI’m just asking. Didn’t he trip the gfi when he shorted the downstream exposed wires ? If so it did it trip at the panel or did it trip the gfi and the panel ?
That actually proved nothing. You reset the GFI so of course you had power at the next outlet, but you never said if the GFI tripped when you shorted the outlet?????
EGC under 250.130(C) can be cheap if there is access under the floor. Does it make more money to do easy, high markup makeup work? You bet! Check your code compliance office to find out if you can add an EGC. Ask specifically about NEC 250.130(C). Be careful about people who "forget" whole code sections, or electricians who don't want to get under your floor. Way too dirty down there!
Two wire hook up, no color ID on either conductor. You need to test phase, identify which wire is coming off breaker and which is from the neutral bus. Can I still install a new3 prong if wired properly with just 2 wire / no ground? And label as such, no equipment ground?
Wow...looks like he got shocked at the end and took it well. Don't know what he was trying to prove. Sometimes you gotta just let comments go and do you.
Gotta love the houses where you see Kn2 in the switch but all forms of romex in the outlets all on the same circuit. Wait… you remodeled the 3rd floor attic and the electrician didn’t tell you the 2nd floor is all tapped knob and tube? 😢
Yeah. If GFCI does not detect a ground-fault it will not trip. So, you can still be electrocuted if shorted to hot and neutral while standing on dry board.
It wasn’t even a tutorial. It was hey people from some comment thread who pissed me off, let me show you how you’re wrong. This is a great example of how not to do a RU-vid video.
Scott Sword the advantage is to protect each old wiring outlet by placing a gfci in each plug receptacle to protect each one because the old wiring doesn’t have a ground wire. today’s wiring has 3 a hot a neutral and a ground wire. the old only had 2 no ground and bad things can happen without a ground. install a gfci in each outlet receptacle and each is protected. does that clear it up for you?
Hey bud…can I replace the current breaker on a circuit with an afci or cafci for extra protection? The current circuit is a two wire system. Thanks and look forward to your reply.
The best protection if they do not want to rewire there house and start with ALL new 2017 codes is to then see if they need a panel upgrade, and if they do not then label all the circuits then install AFCI and Dual combos on the breakers and then look at running EGC grounding conductors to the plugs and possible switches and lights. But this is COSTLY, again how many customers have $10k to $20k to either rewire their house or install all of the newer methods without gutting? I have in the last 6 years installed and traced 14 homes and smaller condos and retro the ALumiconns and AFCI and Panels and Dual Combo breakers and have had great luck. Only one basement I could not help on this, the studs were the 1"x2" furs and the wiring would not accept the AFCI breakers, the circuits were sharing neutrals from other circuits and also the cable as a homerun was a mulit red and black sharing a neutral .
I do believe that one should practice with the intentions to have a GFCI in every open and pig-tailing your copper splices, assuming, you have enough room In the box. But, this video was done in 2013 and now it is 2018 almost, we are suppose to AFCI protect every circuit as we update plugs and switches and lights. Article 406.12 talks about this. So, levinton and pass&seymore has a dual device for a plug and most brands have breakers now, assuming it is not an old school breaker system.
I am not talking about kitchens with an EGC, I am talking about a circuit that has no grounds and only two wire plugs. It does NOT STATE IN THE CODE to line and load this, it states that GFCI protection can be used, therefore in your opinion of it being served on the line side is your opinion. Besides you have old thinking, the room in this video does not meet article 210.8 for unfinished or have any water. In 406 it does talk about GFCI but it is old thinking to not update to a AFCI or A Dual AFCI AND GFCI plug. There is no point for GFCI on a circuit that does not require this protection.
Yes I agree with you, but what I think most of the people who disagree with this video are missing to important codes. Please for who every reads this and listens to the video, needs to "KEEP IN MIND" that this video was completed five years ago. It is now the 2017 code so that means we were in the 2011 addition during this video. In 2014 code the NEC Code book in article 250.130c finally allowed a separate EGC (electrical grounding conductor), (sized off of 205.122), grounding conductor to be ran outside of the jacket of the old BX or NM cable (two wire cables). Before the 2011 code it was practiced but frowned upon if you wired circuits without the bare or insulated grounding conductor... Keep in mind that it is not always easy to or able to, run a separate EGC conductor from another circuit or back from the sub panel or main load center. The code now talks about the means, of how to do it, and from where to pull it from and how to size it, ("BUT"), it does not talk about how to test the path you are using to the ground bar in a subpanel or load center. It does mention how to grab this from another circuit, "Branch", but it does not talk about how to test for impedance or resistance. I have typically seen the mistake of running a "Green" #12 or #14 solid conductor from one circuit to a water pipe or another branch circuit, or to another panel, but there was no Grounding Electrode Path or no forth wire conductor in an SE cable back to the main disconnect or panel. We have also seen that there was no electrode conductors installed on the main water shut off pipe, or UFER cement electrode and or any supplementary electrodes for two x 8' (5/8") ground rods and no intersystem bonding bridge bars. Read, 250.52-53, 250.64, 250.93..... Another good point, is that in 250.104c it talks about now grounding any gas pipes and other metal pipes. The only exception that I have found in the code to allow the connection between the neutral and the grounding connection (ON THE BACK SIDE OF A MAIN BONDING JUMPER IN THE MAIN DISCONNECT) is in article 422 for dryers and ranges. So, therefore the "cheaters" who use a small number #14 or #12 on an old house with the method of jumping the yoke of the device to the neutral of the branch circuit, is NOT ALLOWED> Infact, if the circuit goes bad on the (hot side) of a switch leg of a light fixture, than you are energizing the fixture. No grounding conductor to direct mis current flow. The last thing to keep in mind is the code in 406.1-12 under plugs and 404 under switches, communicates that in the 2011, 2014 and 2017 code we have been enforced to add AFCI (arc fault circuit protection) when we replace, modify or repair any plugs and or switches. I believe this can be unclear when the code is trying to describe an "opening". An opening is a smoke, dimmer, motion, timer, plug, switch, toggle, paddle, exhaust fan, ceiling fan, can light, puck light, transformer, co detector, pendent, mushroom, bar vanity, heat fan light combo kit, etc...... When we are improving the "TRUE SAFETY" of someone's property and we are exchanging monies for time and product, we are told in the newest NEC that we are to do this a new way, basically "upgrade" the circuit. The point of this video is that the OLD METHOD of "just" replacing the two prong plug with a three prong GFCI plug is ("NOT") the safest way and or the "MAXIMUM PROTECTION" that there is for the customer. ("IN MY OPINION") , I show in this video that a GFCI cannot trip only based on a fault between the undground (Hot) and grounded (Neutral) conductors. This home in the video was built in the 1950's and has "no signs" of remodels and branch circuits with EGC grounds and NO grounding electrode system conductors- 250.53. This "customer", (did not want) their home cut up to install a separate grounding conductor, we were in their basement and there is not pop up tile ceilings, and the house was on a slab, we had no choice on the matter. In the video, we are simple proofing that an old Murray (60 year old breaker) is tripping faster and more frequently than a NEW GFCI plug. Point being, what is so important about installing a GFCI plug in an area of the home that is not in relation to 210.8 for GFCI protection. The room has carpet, it is finished with drywall and has no water. This is OLD and SIMPLE Thinking, to keep stating what 406 talks about under two prong plugs has to go!!! The 2011 and 2014 code tells us about AFCI protection, but our AHJ and city officials have not pushed the code of AFCI protection on simple repairs and replacement of plugs and swtiches until now. The 2017 NEC CODE BOOK in article 210.12 B states that if we modify our cirucuits, or extend or replace we have to AFCI. WE NOW HAVE NOT EXCUSE, that we cannot find a AFCI / GFCI (Dual) plug. We also, have breakers (overcurrent protection) that allows us all three options, AFCI and GFCI and Overcurrent in a breaker switch protection. If the panel cannot fit or accept the newer breakers than we can trace and label the circuits and install the protection at the LINE SIDE OF THE EXISTING CIRCUIT> BUT, I still say, why not run an EGC conductor to help in this situation if you can cut drywall and or fish the EGC in. Bottom line, if we are not adding AFCI protection than there is a standard that we are not practicing by. This is not an easy process, but if we do not get past our concerns/fears and start to practice with better skills than we will not grow in our field. I have personally modified 14 homes in the last six years with TOTAL AFCI Protection, and in most cases upgraded the existing panels and also added ALUMINUM PIG-TAILING protection with new TR (tamper restive) and WR (water restive) devices. If the panels were too old, we than, also upgraded the service with the meter as a by-pass lever and added all electrode protection needed. (WITH PERMITS). Later, we have had to add EGC protection to the circuits that had electronics and or computers. Some cities were very hard on us to install all Smoke and CO detectors with three wire 110v feed devices in the NFPA 72, for homes. If you cannot add EGC grounds than protect first in the panel with a Dual breaker. If this is not possible, than protect with a Combo AFCI & GFCI plug, but if you do not have an EGC throughout the circuit than you need to install A DUAL PLUG, in every location, assuming your old metal boxes have the volume space in article 314. Personally i would parallel all my connections with pit-tailing, whether you have copper, aluminum or copper clad aluminum. MY POINT IS, (since i have been so challenged by this video) that if you are not AFCI protecting, updating grounding on EGC and Electrode System, and possible the service with a new main disconnect and by-pass lever, than you are not doing your job!!!! (unless, your city has a lower standard, but HERE IN COLORADO they are very complaint and enforce ALL NEW CODE UPDATES> Better protection, safer standards for the customer is in article 90, this is for the safety of lives and property. NO IF, ANDS OR BUTTS!
SIR, this is not my room, I did not install her three prong plugs, we brought this to her attention. The GFCI does not make sense from the past to now, the AFCI overrules the changing of any plugs, and if you buy a Dual function you meet the code requirement. We practice with the modo of changing out all the plugs if there is no way to run an EGC. We believe that this is not correct and at most is the minimum of standard. I am done with your disagreements, you are not being productive and just accusing me of not be a good electrician, Good day and I will remove you from our channel.
If i’m just wanting to change an old old 2 prong outlet (no ground) to a 3 prong outlet should I just use an ordinary 3 prong outlet or GFCI? I don’t know yet whether its the end of a circuit or not.
No, not every outlet. Any grounding-type receptacles must be fed from a GFCI, either a breaker or from the LOAD terminals of an upstream GFCI receptacle. All such receptacles must also have proper labels: GFCI protected and No Equipment Ground, to meet NEC (2005-2020) 406.4(D)(2)(c).
What happened at the end of this video?? Did "blowing out the circuit" downstream of the gfci trip the gfci or did it trip the breaker or what? I feel like this video is missing the punchline.
Yes, if an ungrounded conductor (shared on Neutral or not) goes to ground on the metal of the fixture, or metal yoke strap of the device or cover plate or the appliance, you will get shocked. The EGC equipment (250.130) grounding conductor is the “separate” path that allows the conductor to take a least path of resistance to earth instead of the person or pet. This is assuming that article (250.52-53) are installed on the main disconnect and all sub panels or load centers are floating their neutrals from the EGC, until first point of dis.
Is it bad to just hook it up and not ground it? Its an outlet for a light, the new one I had had 3 wires but the old one had two, so I hooked the 2 up and capped off the third and everything works...
I agree with others. I can barely hear you and the banner blocks a lot of what you're trying to show us. I have an old house with little to no grounding and am trying to figure out what to do when installing a new light, etc. Can you use a mic please?
I've already run across homes the had a jumper on the GFI to Neutral completing to ground, showing & Tested Good with the GFI tester. Is this a problem?
So is he saying if you have in a room one outlet that is grounded. But the other ones in the room are not grounded. The one that is actually grounded won't work?
So what is the gist of this video? Ordinarily, all outlets downstream of the GFCI (connected to the load side of it), have the same protection as the GFCI outlet itself. Another GFCI outlet is not needed downstream of a GFCI outlet. But, with no ground present, it's not the same scenario? Not seeing where this was shown in the video.
PULL AN EGC Grounding Conductor based on 250.122 and 250.130c and 406- 404 talks about how. And if not possible then rewire. But either way your DF the panel breakers based on 406.4D and 210.12 A-C and 210.8 A-F
Let me start by saying that I am not doubting you. I'm not a certified electrician. I own a home improvement business, often times taking on electrical projects. I am often called upon by other contractors for electrical issues. I guess it's my niche. Anyway, I was called to a house that was built in the 1870s where another contractor was remodeling a bathroom. There was no ground wire present running to the GFI outlet, which I initially though was a problem, but then after research, found that you don't neccesarily have to have a ground wire for a GFCI to offer protection.
GFCI has to be installed in every opening, but todays code in 406 states that AFCI is now needed, so I try to pull my EGC grounds and then DF the Breakers or first plug, plus TR and WR.
@@Petersonelectricllc Not true, under NEC since 2005, that "GFCI has to be installed in every opening." 406.4(D)(2)(c) says the ungrounded grounding-type (3-prong) replacements must be "supplied by a GFCI", which could be a breaker or a GFCI receptacle somewhere else.
Back in my day when those GFIC came out they are kind of a joke if used out in the wet area because the line coming in behind the outlet is not GFIC protected and if the area is flooded there is the potential to be electrocuted just saying
Overall understanding these devices GFCI... works on difference of current between the ungrounded and neutral wire to trip for personal use for it's purpose of safety.. These devices I can say are substituted (replaced) for receptacles that are 2 prong and some kind of method to replace a grounding means.. Seems like 2 (TWO) different ways to complete this... 1- replace a 2 prong with a GFCI but works differently from actually running a rewire and having a grounding system... 2- a grounding system... These 2 methods work differently but are accomplished for the safety of personal... Interesting...
Yes I agree with you, but what I think most of the people who disagree with this video are missing to important codes. Please for who every reads this and listens to the video, needs to "KEEP IN MIND" that this video was completed five years ago. It is now the 2017 code so that means we were in the 2011 addition during this video. In 2014 code the NEC Code book in article 250.130c finally allowed a separate EGC (electrical grounding conductor), (sized off of 205.122), grounding conductor to be ran outside of the jacket of the old BX or NM cable (two wire cables). Before the 2011 code it was practiced but frowned upon if you wired circuits without the bare or insulated grounding conductor... Keep in mind that it is not always easy to or able to, run a separate EGC conductor from another circuit or back from the sub panel or main load center. The code now talks about the means, of how to do it, and from where to pull it from and how to size it, ("BUT"), it does not talk about how to test the path you are using to the ground bar in a subpanel or load center. It does mention how to grab this from another circuit, "Branch", but it does not talk about how to test for impedance or resistance. I have typically seen the mistake of running a "Green" #12 or #14 solid conductor from one circuit to a water pipe or another branch circuit, or to another panel, but there was no Grounding Electrode Path or no forth wire conductor in an SE cable back to the main disconnect or panel. We have also seen that there was no electrode conductors installed on the main water shut off pipe, or UFER cement electrode and or any supplementary electrodes for two x 8' (5/8") ground rods and no intersystem bonding bridge bars. Read, 250.52-53, 250.64, 250.93..... Another good point, is that in 250.104c it talks about now grounding any gas pipes and other metal pipes. The only exception that I have found in the code to allow the connection between the neutral and the grounding connection (ON THE BACK SIDE OF A MAIN BONDING JUMPER IN THE MAIN DISCONNECT) is in article 422 for dryers and ranges. So, therefore the "cheaters" who use a small number #14 or #12 on an old house with the method of jumping the yoke of the device to the neutral of the branch circuit, is NOT ALLOWED> Infact, if the circuit goes bad on the (hot side) of a switch leg of a light fixture, than you are energizing the fixture. No grounding conductor to direct mis current flow. The last thing to keep in mind is the code in 406.1-12 under plugs and 404 under switches, communicates that in the 2011, 2014 and 2017 code we have been enforced to add AFCI (arc fault circuit protection) when we replace, modify or repair any plugs and or switches. I believe this can be unclear when the code is trying to describe an "opening". An opening is a smoke, dimmer, motion, timer, plug, switch, toggle, paddle, exhaust fan, ceiling fan, can light, puck light, transformer, co detector, pendent, mushroom, bar vanity, heat fan light combo kit, etc...... When we are improving the "TRUE SAFETY" of someone's property and we are exchanging monies for time and product, we are told in the newest NEC that we are to do this a new way, basically "upgrade" the circuit. The point of this video is that the OLD METHOD of "just" replacing the two prong plug with a three prong GFCI plug is ("NOT") the safest way and or the "MAXIMUM PROTECTION" that there is for the customer. ("IN MY OPINION") , I show in this video that a GFCI cannot trip only based on a fault between the undground (Hot) and grounded (Neutral) conductors. This home in the video was built in the 1950's and has "no signs" of remodels and branch circuits with EGC grounds and NO grounding electrode system conductors- 250.53. This "customer", (did not want) their home cut up to install a separate grounding conductor, we were in their basement and there is not pop up tile ceilings, and the house was on a slab, we had no choice on the matter. In the video, we are simple proofing that an old Murray (60 year old breaker) is tripping faster and more frequently than a NEW GFCI plug. Point being, what is so important about installing a GFCI plug in an area of the home that is not in relation to 210.8 for GFCI protection. The room has carpet, it is finished with drywall and has no water. This is OLD and SIMPLE Thinking, to keep stating what 406 talks about under two prong plugs has to go!!! The 2011 and 2014 code tells us about AFCI protection, but our AHJ and city officials have not pushed the code of AFCI protection on simple repairs and replacement of plugs and swtiches until now. The 2017 NEC CODE BOOK in article 210.12 B states that if we modify our cirucuits, or extend or replace we have to AFCI. WE NOW HAVE NOT EXCUSE, that we cannot find a AFCI / GFCI (Dual) plug. We also, have breakers (overcurrent protection) that allows us all three options, AFCI and GFCI and Overcurrent in a breaker switch protection. If the panel cannot fit or accept the newer breakers than we can trace and label the circuits and install the protection at the LINE SIDE OF THE EXISTING CIRCUIT> BUT, I still say, why not run an EGC conductor to help in this situation if you can cut drywall and or fish the EGC in. Bottom line, if we are not adding AFCI protection than there is a standard that we are not practicing by. This is not an easy process, but if we do not get past our concerns/fears and start to practice with better skills than we will not grow in our field. I have personally modified 14 homes in the last six years with TOTAL AFCI Protection, and in most cases upgraded the existing panels and also added ALUMINUM PIG-TAILING protection with new TR (tamper restive) and WR (water restive) devices. If the panels were too old, we than, also upgraded the service with the meter as a by-pass lever and added all electrode protection needed. (WITH PERMITS). Later, we have had to add EGC protection to the circuits that had electronics and or computers. Some cities were very hard on us to install all Smoke and CO detectors with three wire 110v feed devices in the NFPA 72, for homes. If you cannot add EGC grounds than protect first in the panel with a Dual breaker. If this is not possible, than protect with a Combo AFCI & GFCI plug, but if you do not have an EGC throughout the circuit than you need to install A DUAL PLUG, in every location, assuming your old metal boxes have the volume space in article 314. Personally i would parallel all my connections with pit-tailing, whether you have copper, aluminum or copper clad aluminum. MY POINT IS, (since i have been so challenged by this video) that if you are not AFCI protecting, updating grounding on EGC and Electrode System, and possible the service with a new main disconnect and by-pass lever, than you are not doing your job!!!! (unless, your city has a lower standard, but HERE IN COLORADO they are very complaint and enforce ALL NEW CODE UPDATES> Better protection, safer standards for the customer is in article 90, this is for the safety of lives and property. NO IF, ANDS OR BUTTS!
My question is do you need to have a ground when hooking up in these old houses where there is no ground wire. Is it safe? You might of answered my question in your video but I didn't hear it.
@@Petersonelectricllc No offense but a microphone and some editing could work wonders on audio quality and volume level. I can understand needing to talk quietly but that could easily be fixed with editing.
I just took in my I 6s=+ and they said that the microphone is going out. So, it is about a grand $1k to replace for the X and we are looking at this soon. Did not know this was going on over the past year, we will have this fixed with in the month of Nov 2018. Thanks for watching
Can a two wire socket be adapted to three wire by running a third (green) wire from the receptacle to the ground buss inside the panel? Say an old house has all two-wire service and the owner has a plasma TV that has a three-wire power cord with a mesh braid. Without the ground connection, strong RFI is radiated from the non-metallic cable between the plug and the service panel, making it impossible to listen to the radio when the TV is on. Would a dedicated circuit of 14/2 +ground in spiral armor cable from the panel to the TV outlet keep the RFI in the cable? It seems all the comments about two wire homes only mention GFCI. GFCI makes sense, of course, but does nothing to remedy RFI.
Radio Frequency Interference is rarely a problem. If I was in a situation were I had to do something but couldn't run new wires I would put a high value resistor in line with a diode as a jumper between the ground and Neutral on the line side of the GFCI receptacle.
Many modern appliances have 3-prong plug, but don't necessarily need to be grounded. So, national code allows you to install ungrounded receptacles fed from a GFCI, rather than having to rewire, or (worse) to use a "cheater plug" adapter to plug your 3-prong devices into ungrounded two-slot receptacles.
No sir, 410.4D Now states that you have to have AFCI protection on the plugs and switches once changed. 250.130c states to run an egc grounding conductor to the circuits.
Your suppose to pull a Green, solid #12 to the box and hide it in the wall or the mop board, and then AFCI the plug. GFCI if in a kitchen or bath or unfinished area. The plugs have to be TR rated for kids and WR rated for wet areas.
It has to be EITHER a GFCI receptacle or else supplied through a GFCI (either a breaker or an "upstream" GFCI receptacle's "load" terminals. If that particular receptacle also falls under AFCI requirements, that makes it more complicated, but AFCI is NOT required in every circuit or location as of national 2017 code.
I think this video is mis-labeled. It isn't about "What can be done" - rather, it's about proving some people wrong who left you comments about GFCI's. Still wondering what can be done about a house from the 50's with no ground wires. Now I have to go look elsewhere. At least the video is short and I didn't waste a lot of time on it.
It actually states that you have to install a GFCI in every opening. But this video is 8 yrs old and now you have AFCI and GFCI every opening. 406.4d and 210.8 and 210.12b
@@josephrostkowski674 It's meant for outdoor use so I guess that rubber sheathing counts. I've been watching it doesn't get warm. So far, it's been okay.
Get a cord-connected GFCI breaker and insert that between your cord and the receptacle or replace your ungrounded two-prong outlet with a GFCI, as permitted by code.
I cannot understand what you mean because your label and name get in the way on the screen. Your audio is too low. I have to crank volume all the way up to hear you
