A Concerning Trend in Guitar Amp Manufacturing... 

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End of life factor aside, having products that are based on digital platforms will inevitably enable companies to get greedy and lock features behind subscription models. Which forces you to keep spending. Whereas a real amp, keeps working no matter what.

I am 74, grew up in tube world, studied electronics 2 years in high school, played guitar since 9 years old, studied music in college, was first Peavey/Ampeg/Marshall/Fender factory authorized service center for four years in South Florida. What you said is true. I coudl fill pages of talk and advice. Tube amps have been reduced in power except a few. Power supply capacitors can go bad over time, tubes become microphonic from being banged around with careless moving. Tube amps have tone and bottom end. Digital can be subject to voltage surges, most digital amps have little to no bottom end unless you are a metal player which usually want roaring bottom end, some digital amps have bottom end. The boutique amps now with 5-20 watts are overpriced because they are made in limited quantities, have to be miked. Having a mllion sounds in a digital amp with no bottom end is moronic and there are plenty because they are selling sounds not real tone. Yes, the markets are brutal, if you want to stay in business you have to downsize and change. Most amps are made in China or countries where labor is cheaper for corporate reasons. Todays factory workforce is not what it was in the 50', 60', 70's. Good luthiers are hard to find, it requires creative talent, tedious stick to it work ethics, dedication. They have to get paid. Countries with low labor can create knockoffs of American products and many are high grade for lower prices than American companies can market for given their high overhead. Years ago 60's & 70's the demand was hogh for big amps, 2x12's 4x12's double stacks, etc. Prices were low but musicians went crazy along with studio engineers in recording to create different sounds before the pedal craze and digital modeling hit markets. The cost of building tube amps is very high. Lower volume means higher prices for parts, assembly labor, advertising, insurance, keeping operating capital high enough to pay employees and costs and when markets dip or competition gets higher, you want to have enough to keep the lights on. I remember going to a music store in the early 60's, seeing a Les Paul Custom white SG body with 3 pickups. They were about $650.00. Builds on rhe guitars were near as perfect as humanly possible, low action, quality builds, lifetime guitars. Costs were low, skill was high, you got a lot for rhe money. Today, that same guitar may be $6,500 to $7,500 or more because that is what it costs today to get the same quality. I always wanted an L5C. It takes a master luthier 1 year to make that guitar. He has to get paid, A/C is on, insurance, prestocked woods in dryer rooms, assembly line costs and maintenance, paint equipment and painters, wiring crews, fret installers, engineers, planners, parts aquisition people, ,etc. Ir costs money. The L5C today is probably around $14,500 guessing. You lose money on that guitar to make it when you subtract costs and losses, equipment maintenance, overhead, etc, it all is expensive. I am amazed today that many of the old American names are still in existance. Wirhout really smart business minded operators, planners, marketers, designers able to woek as a team the ship can sink quickly and I have seen many go by the wayside. They made good products but something was missing in the formula of operations and with radical market and sales swings, things go south quickly. Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacher, are a few of the most copied guitars. Running a factory is difficult and competion, market swings and knowing when to market new products can be a nightmare. Investing in making, advertising, stocking a million retail stores, shipping costs with damaged in shipping always a headache- if the market changes and the product doesn't sell- it can be a hard hit to the company's bottom line and image. Today cosmetics is a big seller. Competion has lots of cosmetics and eye candy. Original designs such as Fender and Gibson have to pay a lot to attorneys that fight knockoff challenges constantly or lose their market. It requires a lot of work to make and sell good instruments. Maintaining consistent quality is also difficult and costly. Many tubes are being substituted today and the amps sound can be affected. I have a Fender Super Twin I bought new in the 70's. The two preamp tubes were 7025's and had higher gain. They are hard to find and using 12AX7's will work but there is a difference in sound and gain. Tubes are costly to manufacture, mica insulators are getting expensive and harder to get and purchase. Originally, for many years Magnavox built most of the tubes in the US in their Greenville, Tennessee plant. They had 23 acres under one roof. They stamped RCA, Fender, Sylvania, GE, etc. on the tubes and shipped them to the manufacturers. Ampeg had two 600 foot long assembly lines at that facility. One line was cabinets the other line built and wired amps. By the late 1970's, Ampeg started building hybrid amps and got a lot of faulty components in the preamp sections and amps were shutting down and had to have warranty replacements of bad components. It hurt their sales. SVT bass amps were amazing at 300 real watts. V4 guitar amps were good but again had some faulty circuit problems. Fender amps were always reliable and many players loved them. Being upside down, many Fender amps over time developed spitting resistors from heat cycles but could be found and changed. It is hard to say how long tube amps will live but costs keep going up. I was selling new 6L6 tubes for $5.50 in the mid to late 70's, now they are $25 to $30 and climbing. Three to 5 years from now they could double in price do to several factors. They were amazing creations but may see obsolescence becaue of costs and reduced parts availability. Tungsten filaments, mica and internal element quality can vary. Shorted output tubes can be death for a tube amp. Blown power and output transformers. I had seen and repaired SVT bass amps that went into meltdown and start on fire. Those amps were running about 650VDC on the plates and when a short from wornout output tubes happened the lights could be dimming. They had serious power and power supplies. Well, I could talk for hours but I will stop now and thanks for the good article. These are things young players need to think about as parts obsolescence and having an amp that doesn't work and no more parts. Same with car electronics, manufacturers abandon production after a few years and you are stuck with no spare parts from penny pinching lean manufacturing techniques. They only have parts for what was on the assembly line. Sad but true.

Such an incredibly balanced, nuanced view. Thank you!

I have two Marshall amps. One solid state and the other is tube. I also have a modeler with all my presets in it. One thing that I have noticed is, if I connect the modeler to the solid state amp, then connect it to the tube amp, the tones are very different. Even using the same models on both. The tones coming out of the tube amp sound so much better. I think that even if you are using a modeler like me, you should still invest in a tube amp if you want your presets to sound really good.

I’ve always treated guitars and amps like cars, get a good used one that’s maybe a year or so old, and let someone else pay for the depreciation.

It has always been about the experience. I don't think the listener has ever cared about the gear unless the listener is a musician. They mostly care if the volume is right and if they can clearly hear the vocal part and any key hooks.

Cool video man! Interesting points for sure...

I love my tube amp. My most expensive piece of gear and it sounds otherworldly. Unfortunately, these days I only use it for fun. Nothing beats playing in front of one. For songwriting and recording though it's only a Helix VST for me now. Why? It always sounds the same between sessions. I no longer have to worry about mics and placement. It cuts the workflow in half. I can find a sound after-the-fact with no hassle at all if I need to. But still, nothing beats standing in front of a good tube amp and cab. I'll always have it to fall back on if I need to. Good video

Great points. As a boutique amp builder I keep the tube amp as simple as possible and ease of maintenance is a top priority. The digital effects are kept external but the amps do need access ports such as an effects loop and line-out to make interfacing easier.

Interesting observations and you are spot on in regards to the life cycle of digital products. I think we have a lot more options. The sweet spot for home studios I think is guitar->pedal board/effects unit->tube amp->cab & mikes simulator device->computer (daw)

I love VST for creating music, riff etc..Mock up versions pretty much,But, if i stay in that zone for a long time and i start playing on Tube Amp-oh boy, all of the sudden i dont know how to play :) Great one Dan!

I had an AX8 for 4+ years, sold it to my bassist and grabbed an FM9 turbo. Many gigs are direct with that…..but sometimes, I do bring out my ‘87 2204 (with a tube loop) and my small rack. Love the tubes 😍 when I can use them….

the bigger concern is PCB mounting of tube mounts and potentiomiters etc . if you go valve then go for something point to point wired .

My friends and I who started playing in the 90s, the guitarists are all still using their first decent valve amp. I've friends who play Fenders, Peaveys, Marshalls, even Yamaha oddballs. It used to be you got a good amp, learned how to get the kinds of tones you liked from it, and you were set for life. As a bass player, I played through an old Trace Elliott combo, then moved to a Hartke because it had wheels and more power. I don't know if having access to so many different sounds, so early on, would just be a distraction to a new player now. I like amps, since picking up the guitar a decade ago I got a 1970s 50w master volume. It's far too loud and I love it.

The new Revv G50 looks pretty sweet! I’ve owned lots of great tube amps over the years. Eventually sold them all off and went modeler several years ago. From a gigging perspective it’s hard to beat the convenience.

I worked in a guitar store for several years and played all of the well known (tube and modeling) amps. To this day, no modeling Amp can 100% replace the feel and tone you get from a (well designed) tube amp. The feel is different. The modeling stuff came a long way, but there is still a difference. Same thing with Studio/recording gear. You can`t replicate the sound of analog gear with plugins. Maybe 85-90%, but the depth and feel of analog gear is not replaceable. Get a well designed tube amp and be happy for the next 50 years.

Interesting to hear you say that. As someone who started playing circa 1994, we truly didn't know what tube amps were. Amps were amps. We knew Peavey, Marshall, Vox. My friends dad had an old jazz tube amp. We hated it. It couldn't do distortion. The stuff at SamAsh and GC (when it opened) were all solid state (at least what we saw and could afford). The only pedals were Boss, a few from MXR, Dunlop wahs, Morley volume and some odds and ends. No one talked about "tone" like we do today. Why? Simply because there was no near-billion dollar marketing apparatus at work, as exists today. We turned on the amp and it sounded good. The neighbors hated it. Good enough for us. Not once did any of the few players in my circle even think about tone caps or treble bleeds. We just wanted to learn GnR, Nirvana, Metallica and Green Day songs. Even the magazines didn't discuss tone as they do today. Now it's all you hear. Telling kids who don't know intervals they need to "perfect their tone" is a joke. Thievery. Hey - tube amps are great. Fractal is better. So much easier and you can carry your entire rig in one trip. I will never go back to analog. Even for listening purposes. Hi-Res isn't as rich as analog but it's so close the human ear can't possibly tell the difference. The benefit of a tube amp, that almost-imperceptible squish you FEEL and the subtle coloring that comes along with tubes (aka: "warmth") no matter where you use them are only detectable at HIGH VOLUME. Truthfully, 95% of us will never get to play at such necessary volumes to experience actual high voltage sag in person or feel that "squish" for real. _Truthfully, the Fractal is 93 - 96% of the way there, and under 110dB, no one will detect the difference._ Even if you do stadium gigs, the FoH doesn't want volume. They want DI and they should. You might use stage volume, but it isn't necessary. Most bands are doing IEMs, and have been for decades. Unless you're the Beatles playing Shea Stadium with no PA, there is no need for high wattage amps, tubes, or any of that tone voodoo. The whole industry needs to shift to quieter amps. Tube distortion and "squish" without volume over 100dB or an Ox Box, etc. Built in attenuation and circuits clever enough to push tube distortion in a whisper bedroom setting. THAT is the market.

I recently added my vintage Axe-FX Ultra (a 16-ish year old device) to my rack in my studio and am enjoying playing through it these days... Ahh, those vintage digital tones! 😆

For recording there are true advantages to modelers that tube amps can't really compete with. But if you want the real feel, fun and joy of playing guitar then only a good tube amp and cab will give you that! Once you get use to play with an amp and cab at good enough volume then you know the difference! 🤘

I know in 10 years i will still have my Marshall heads. I won’t have a quad cortex as good as it is.

2 words "Planned Obsolescence"

I believe that the amplifiers of the big brands assembled on PCBs are disappearing, while small companies that build quality handwired amplifiers are making their way.

1st and most important ," keep it simple". A player will spend too much precious time trying to find a sound they can use instead of actually using this time to practice and listen to music. Dropping/ travelling and wiring the modellers will cause them to malfunction, the player ends up depending on a modeller to generate a "unique" effect and when they go wrong you will end up throwing them out of the window. I did like a small combo that Fender experimented with a "Super-Champ x2 , a valve amp and programable digital pre-amp modeller, it took me 2 years to get it to sound usable( ( New speaker, hours of tweeking) now I can't do without this little "Hybrid" which I almost sold. Stick to basic designs for an amp and get pedals which at-least are replaceable and the feel a good valve amp gives the player really is impossible to emulate digitally, it's just too special . These modellers are useful but in essence they are toys to have fun with. I suppose if you have never experienced even a 5 watt valve amp played clean and with a biit of volume you probably would'nt know why they still build valves. Better a small 15watt 10" portable combo with a modest pedal board will always beat any modeller just for the feel.

A very valid topic of discussion.

I used digital technology in the 90's (Peavey Tubefex). By 2004 the two units I have malfunctioned (within the wafer layers(pre-CPU era)) so now I have 2 boat anchor rackmounts. Gone to Tube amps and pedals from then on, lesson learnt.

Great discussion, and I’m with you. I don’t like this new hybridization trend of combining digital tech with tube amps. Mainly from a maintenance perspective. I want to keep my tube amps simple, so the repairs and maintenance are less expensive. 😆

I have had (and still do) tube amps throughout the years. Drive pedals have gotten so good now that I've gone to building pedal boards (15 of them now) based around mini pedal board mounted amps. I have five Moorer Baby Bomb 30s, a JOYO Bluejay, a TC Electronic BAM200, and a Seymour Duncan Power Stage 170. I'd challenge anyone to blind A/B sound comparison challenge anytime.

The goal these days is simply to make a product life cycle very short. You need to love the product and want to buy a new version every 1-2 years ideally. Look at the mobile phones market as an example and that trend can be seen everywhere for years now. We stopped building products that supposed to last for years. Business must sell more and more. That's the ultimate goal.

Thanks!

This is one of the reasons I bought a Helix. I had a Digitech 2112 and when the screen went dead after 20 years, they didn’t make components anymore. I figured that if I was gonna stay in the digital world, it would behoove me to buy a product from a company with some staying power. Line 6 has been around since the 90’s and what’s more is that they’re now owned by Yamaha, which of course is gigantic and well established. I wound up wearing out the joystick on my Helix because I was a dumbass and didn’t use HX edit. I had to get it fixed. Luckily, because of the ubiquity of Yamaha repair shops, it wasn’t super difficult to get it done. It sounds great and doesn’t everything I need a rig to do.

Really good points in this. I sold all my amps recently and bought a Helix product and its AWESOME! But its not “Tangible”. I dont want digi in my Tube amp either. To clarify: I do like the direct jack in some new amps but I dont want modeling in a Diezel or anything. I WILL be purchasing a Tube amp or two again soon.

Used 6505+ for classic rock cover band for years with good results. Using a combo hybrid amp now, line 6 bogner valve. For smaller venues just a line 6 pod go, with a small powered speaker. Did have my first pod go fail after 18 months, but got a free replacement!

It occurs to me that many of the young guys may have never heard or even seen the physical models of these amps in person. So they won’t know what it sounds like in a room, they only know what a model sounds like in headphones or monitors. If that’s good or bad, I don’t know. I guess it could be liberating because they won’t get obsessed with finding a VST that is an exact replica of a 5150 they never even seen in person. It’ll just be “Does it sounds cool?” Yes or no.

I love my tube amps. But I also enjoy my Helix which I use into tube power, used as a preamp into real cabs. Which can sound and feel really good. I think there can be a happy medium.

The main problem with modeling equipment is that it is not aware of the sound reproduction equipment (actual amp/cab or PA) and the room it is being used in. To solve this problem, it would be necessary to use a high-quality reproduction system and perform a room calibration. Done wrong, modeling is only a fancy pedal.

Thanks for making this video. I started out with a Line6 Pod as a kid, then much later got a Kemper. I only just finally got a tube amp, and the VHX actually really appealed to me with its built-in effects, cab emulation, cabless operation capability, and ability to save settings while still being a 'for-realsies' tube pre and power amp. Since I came *from* the modeling world for all my playing history, the digital features felt more comforting to me, and I felt like I could probably be more successful recording with it than something like your JCM 900. While I LOVE my VHX, I think it would have been maybe a better idea to go with a Herbert and a load box (for a similar total price!). Then I could explore other tube amp options in the future without buying the same digital capabilities over and over again.

Metallica recently stated in an article I read that 50% of the time they use their digital Marshall amps at live concerts. I've heard and played both tube and digital. I currently have a 100watt Marshall ½ Stack, 4 12's that's digital and kicks ass! I can play at 100% power for hours without blowing amp. And the sound with or without my floor monitor is flipping insanely awesome. It's truly up to the player.

Is there others out there that can still just hear(feel) that tube sound? It to me still has that feel , it's a warm, honking, hollow but full , resonating in your body type blanket of goodness , like say in the No More Tears solo................. How say you out there? Am I off my rocker ? Stubborn? Too old? lol

This is one of the reasons I love companies like Suhr. They are taking inspiration from classic designs and improving upon the core circuitry while retaining serviceability. I'm a Tonex user, but the Bella is on my bucket list not only because it sounds great, but because anyone with a soldering iron and a meter could fix it in the rare situation that it were to go down.

Well I also have to use both. I like Marshall JMC with a Helix for effects, but take a look at the Mezzabarba amplification. Now that's a bad boy.

Great take. I'm all digital currently with a Boss Katana and a Pod Go. I've been looking at tube amps but would want all the convenience of my digital stuff (line out with cab/mic emulation). After seeing this I think I'll steer away from any one tube amp that does it all. Modular all the way. Get a separate load box. Get a separate DI solution, etc

Very true... they are also multiple products that are dependent on a computer or a mobile device. The lifecyle of those are going to be even shorter... The day the OS of the computer evolves, the app running the device might not follow and you are basically stuck...

Great video I really enjoyed it. I couldn't agree with you more it's so important to build a product that's going to last. I'm definitely not a big fan of digital plugins or modeling. I'm proud that our amps are without circuit boards and built like a tank. For me it's extremely frustrating to spend good money on something that's going to fail or need repair in a short amount of time. That's why stereo tube amps are the best! 🎸

Earned a sub simply because this is such an important topic that needs to be covered, and I would argue the economics of this industry need to be spoken about to musicians. There's a reason this is called the music "business". Companies in this industry, especially established behemoths, have a mandate to sell product, not musical products. Our culture in North America has somehow accepted planned obsolescence as just the way things are, and many youtubers are aware of the issues you've discussed, and *continue to make money off of their audiences without raising these concerns*. It may be impolite, but considering the money at the stake + the ease at which people are taken advantage of, this needs to be combated. Additionally, disposable gear is so unbelievably damaging to the environment, that if you consider yourself someone even remotely concerned about the planet we live on, an easier-to-service product with a long shelf life, built to last, is even more important. Of course tubes break, but you just need to replace the tube, not the whole amplifier. Support your local builder if you can. Save up a few extra bucks and get something that'll last you a life time. Carr, Pizzolato, TopHat, Hi-Tone, Germino etc. all make tremendous product made to last. Thank you for the service to the musical community. Refreshing to hear real issues discussed in the Geartube universe

I can certainly agree with the voiced concerns about all the hybrid digital-tube amps. I keep the two almost entirely separate. All my amps are hand-wired and fairly simple circuits. I leave the digital magic to pedals (relatively cheap and easy to sell) and computers (constantly replacing/upgrading anyways for all aspects of their use, not just for music).

You bring up great points. I am almost 49. I have been getting by with cheap modelers but it's time to get a real tube amp. I am borrowing a dsl100h. I will never play a modeler again. Now the question is, DSL20HR or spend a lot more and get point to point marshall. Like you mentioned, it should last a life time..

Everyone deserves the opportunity to own and play a great real tube amp.

The main issue with tube amps is initial cost in most cases for home users, your JCM900 at home requires an attenuator, so buying that amp today is going to cost you, for discussion sake, 1000$, you have to add a good attenuator so 500$ more. You cannot play with headphones even after all that money, this is today's reality, a 100w tube amp in an apartment is just stupid. For 500$ you have a decent modeler that does it all. Consumerism has also caught up with guitar players things are not made to last and to be repairable now.

Just like almost every single ss amp ever made the digital modelers are going to last forever without ANY maintenance. While i see your point with tube amp manufacturers combining technologies with digital aspects,(which is a terrible idea) these modelers will never need maintenance. They will never need to go to a repairman. Even if something does happen to one of these modelers within its lifespan you will be able to buy another one for a small portion of the cost of the tube amps that seem to just keep going up in value. Modelers have been doubley accepted, you said it yourself. With that being said they are going nowhere. I for one love both tube amps and modelers. We have needed, for a long time, something to balance the ridiculous markup universe and im so very greatful even it is going to take some time. Its already started.

Tube amps vs solid state is kind of like the quartz crisis in watches, if you know about that. There is a trend of all of these cheap easy to manufacture by the numbers devices but at the end of the day there is a core tube market that will always remain.

The trend has been here and Your right on point! Take the Bogner Spider Valves, which were actually great if You take Your time with it! I saw that Diezel and thought Wow a touch screen version! I’m waiting for the tube amp that You can lock Your iPad into lol

Imagine if amp modeling had happened way back when the tweed Fender Deluxe was first produced, and that model was based on the intended level and settings of the day, that is, clean, avoiding distortion, since distortion was to be avoided by the original design parameters. Had the model been based on what the Deluxe was designed to do, the model would never have considered intentional distortion to be within the model, so no matter what one did with the amp based on the model, it would not distort because said distortion was not part of the model. As we all know, the sound of a distorting tweed Deluxe is as iconic as the sound of a snare drum or the shape of a Stetson hat, and that distorted bloom of harmonics would never have been realized had players not taken the Deluxe beyond the design intention and established the distortion produced as an intentional characteristic.

I like the hybrid style like the Revv G20 so you have the sound and feel of a tube amp when you want it but you can plug in and use a quality DI. I think these days that many players aren't thinking in terms of repairability. We have cell phones, TV's, laptops, game consoles and they all have an expected lifespan. Planned obsolescence. We have a whole generation raised in an era where we don't even have right to repair in many cases. So the idea of a guitar amp as an investment or something to pass down or only needs repairs isn't even in the thinking. And then when the pros realize that you can get a consistent sound every night and carry a fraction of the gear while losing maybe 10% of the mojo it's a no brainier. And once you step into the digital realm the diversity of sounds is amazing. People don't tend to want or buy expensive large tube amps when you can get something close enough for a fraction of the price. Why buy a 4k SLO when Neural makes a plugin for 100$? I'm sure the original is better but is it 3900$ better? And you never have to repair it, replace tubes, worry about volume, fear it will get stolen or destroyed. I love my tube amps but it's hard to resist the combination of price, convenience and options.

I am just a 'weekend warrior' so my choices in amplification are different than that of a professional. The venues that I play tend to be small and are getting smaller and fewer.I love my Marshall and pedal board and that is really my preferred sound but in many cases it is just too loud to use in smaller venues. A tube amp sounds the best when you are 'pushing' the output tubes. That is the sound of classic rock. I need something that can replicate that sound and a lower volume. Today I am using my Boss Katana MKII 50 for the most part. It is lightweight and easy to carry plus I can get a great tone at a lower volume. If I play and outdoor gig I can always take out my Marshall. I am seriously thinking of getting a Boss GX100 which can be run directly through the front of house. This would be a very versatile rig that allows for a multitude of amp models and effects and is cheap enough that if it were to get damaged or stolen it could be replaced.

People think their gear is worth something until they try to sell it. It highly depends on the gear and your local market.

Lot of dinosaurs here, I'm one too, so go easy on the flames. But I'm also a hybrid, I have always had my first Fender Princeton that everyone laughed at back in the day, "get a stack" was the mantra. Now they're gold. But I also bought a Roland JC-120 for loud projection of my pedals, SG, etc. It's super clean and pushed pedals very consistently. I also have a 100W Peavey rig that's great fun, but less consistent, I've had tubes go bad and speakers. The Roland just works, never changes. Bright and clear. But I'm a folkadelic rhythm and prog player mainly and maybe if i were a shredder I would lean harder on tubes. But my Roland has never needed to visit the shop. My Fender and Peavey both have several times. Regarding the planned obscelescence of the digital devices, dead on Sir. Plugins, PCs, software anything is outdated as soon as it's installed. Every time you boot you risk entering update hell and wasting hours just getting things working. With fixed hardware, things are much better. But. If it has any custom chips in it, we're at the mercy of those firms too. I own ableton and FL Studio, but I'm done with the trendy virtual stuff. I like the Spark, got one and they're previous PG amp head virtual amp, works great, but no longer supported. $500 new, now with maybe half? What's the point? The big stacks are great fun to play, but not to lug around. And they're kind of two or three truck ponies. If you're a working cover band, like most semi-pro musicians, you usually need something like a Katana that can play a lot of styles, or a modeler or multi-fx into the mixer. It's just too much work liugging big amps around for low paying gigs. The public doesn't care what you play.

I’ve found that most guitarists are not even familiar with the number of great non-modeling solid state amps out there. The standard answer most guitarists I’ve met give for solid state amps is Quilter, Roland JC120, and the Peavey Bandit. Solid state amps like the 80’s series Marshall Lead 100 Mosfet (and the well known Lead 12), the fairly new (last 11 years or so) AMT Stonehead SH-50-4, the older Pearce G2r, Gallien Krueger 250ML and RL, Ampeg VH140c, Marshall 8100 Valvestate like Billy Gibbons used for awhile and groups in the 90’s like Prong, Death, Static X, Meshuggah, and Mudvayne, Hughes & Kettner Black Spirit 200, the well liked Orange Crush Pro CR120 and newer Super Crush 100, the newer HiWatt Crunch series like the Crunch 150r and 350r, the brand new Laney Lead Top and Dual Top amps, the well liked Randall RG, EG amps - these are all relatively inexpensive used and even new. Of course lots of people love the Quilters too, and the Peavey Transtube bandit and the Transtube Supreme head are all good too and the 70’s solid states are even still great (400 series, 260 series) and can even get Plexi-like sounds (check out Johan Segeborn demoing a 400). The list of good solid state amps is actually quite big but most are unaware or played some horrible Peavey from the 80’s with the saturation knob or Crate or Gorilla and think all solid states are like those. My AMT Stonehead SH-50-4 I actually prefer over my Bogner Atma all tube amp. Best solid state I’ve ever played and it’s around $700 new. They make a rack mount 100w version too. I like digital modeling and own some modelers, but simple analog solid state non-modeling amps last a long time if you get some quality ones and amp techs can still work on them easy enough. Hybrid amps are still great too. I love my Marshall 3203 Artist - that solid state 80’s equivalent of a JCM800 series preamp and a 30 watt EL34 power section. Slayer used them for awhile before the regular JCM800’s - lots of bands did and they fit perfect on a Marshall 1965 series 410 with the G10L-35’s that came with them in the 80’s. I have tube amps too, but I don’t always reach for them and could run out of tubes tomorrow and not be phased at all. I actually haven’t turned on my 50 watt Plexi clone since buying a Lion 68 digital modeling pedal too, so very happy with some digital modeling, tube amps, solid state amps, and analog modeling. I like it all because I kept an open mind about technology used to get my sounds. Also analog modeling is quite a great sound and I prefer it to most digital modeling. Main rig is a Black Widow Audio Designs MGP-1A Analog Modeling Preamp that uses real tubes (4x Tung Sol 12ax7’s ), real analog circuits, and Venum modeling from Black Widow Audio Designs. 18 preamp models/channels of some of the best amps ever made. I use an Axiom Effects PAE-1 Power Amp Emulator with it. All analog pedal with some of the very best tube power amp emulation I’ve ever heard or felt playing. Really dynamic response and controls for negative feedback, Bias, PI Gain, power tube type, rectifier tube (or SS rectifier) type, switch for cathode bias/fixed bias, switch for push-pull/single-ended operation, Master output and Power knob for headroom in 5w to 100w settings, internal flyback voltage control, internal dip switches for impedance setting - analog modeling the tube power amp. I actually replaced two real tube power amps (EL34 and 6V6) and two attenuators with two PAE-1 pedals last year. Between the MGP-1A and the PAE-1, no digital modeler I’ve heard can touch the realism of the modeling. So tube vs digital modeling may be seen as the only choices but really there are so much more if you look. I do prefer real cabs live and IR’s for recording or mix of real cabs and Cab Sims for live playing.

This is a really great analogy of how things are..... I think if tube amp makers lowered their prices, lots of peeps would buy.. I mean they still sell lots of them but not everyone can afford a real good amp!! A good guitar and amp is running you 6K+ now !! crazy !!!

All of my analog stuff from the 80s and early 90s still works, and in most cases, has increased in value. That said, these days I mostly just use my little Katana 50 and a laptop because they are so convenient. Unfortunately, both the Katana amp and the laptop PC are basically disposable items these days and retain almost no value.

That's why I leave my precious Tube amps at home and bring my cheap Tonex with a few pedals to a gig. They sound good with the right captures and a good monitor system, okay you miss the tube amp feeling, but that is something you have to get used to. The audience will not hear the difference. If it breaks , that's sad, but it is replaceable for not too much money. We live in a throwaway society and that's a shame !!! New law regulations in our city commands that we are not allowed to play louder then 95db . If a pub owner gets caught they take his permission to organize live music and if they measure 96db it's goodbye permission....So every pub holder is buying a calibrated limiter and put it on their PA systems. A tube amp at 95 db sounds dull, nowhere near its sweet spot, and has no advantage in comparison with a modeler with an FRFR. A lot of cities are forced to go in a other direction because of these law restrictions. You'll see more and more silent stages and more and more proffesional artists are playing with in-ears and no amps anymore. A few weeks ago I saw Mateus Asato and Guthrie Govan with a Kemper and in-ears...They bring their USB stick and load it into the Kemper and off they go. If you see what the costs of new tubes are then you're gonna think twice. Electro Harmonix exports less Tubes due to the export ban of Mr.Putin. I think Tube amps will be more of a studio thing and for playing at home with loadboxes and such. That whole hybrid amp thing with digital stuff and tubes is temporary IMHO, it's a trend. I would never buy that. The good old times are gone unfortunally.

I'll preface my opinion with. being of the age when I could have purchased used kalamazoo Gibsons for $50 LP Jr, $75-100 SG, LP for 125-250 depending on the model, etc. Tube amps had the maintenance issues, were generally heavier but the tone was set the standard. now affordable tube amps are less repair friendly with printed boards unless you can afford hand wired, though repairable and if your inclined you can learn to do may repairs. the plethora of effects is amazing as there are more distortion pedals available now than practically the total from all manufacturers put together in the early '80's. I prefer an amp that will last, has the benchmark sound that all were based on and use individual pedals. If one pedal quits, 1 pedal is relatively cheap to replace, even a multi effects unit. I don't think tubes are going anywhere soon. I do still use a little Yamaha THR amp which sounds great for what it is, I did have an SS amp with digital effects at one time, it last for about 1 year of regular use before a couple parts went, I repaired and sold it. You make good points about the current units that are all digital, if phased out or they break that's likely it, in the trash(electronics recycling). I'll stick with what I have(I also no longer play out) which is another factor in my choices.

You are so right! Of course modern modelers can sound _REALLY_ great! No question about that, but all those little computers with its proprietary ICs and of course proprietary software on it can't be easily repaired. Often it can not be repaired AT ALL because manufacturer can't support them forever and they also depend on the modern IC market. Personally I would never buy a modeler for anything else except for quick studio sessions or situations in which weight is a concern. You can not develop a "relationship" with an isntrument which is a bunch of digital waste in near future. That is all due to the custom ICs and firmware... Not so much with "digital" ICs itself, since there are many which are produced over decades!

I surely prefer puristic tube amps. No modeling is going to give me the tube sag, the entire feel of playing just the rather new Orange OR30 I own since recently, for example. And it’s not even a responsive amp, but it forms the sound so beautifully and pure, I don’t think any modeling will ever give me this specific sensation. And not just that, add a 1960BX with stock Greenbacks for really amazing and very lively speaker breakup on top, which produces a random type of fuzz/distortion I never heard from any pedals or modeling yet, analog or digital. Pure bliss of the very special kind, you’ll never find this type of sound anywhere outside of physical tubes and physical speakers doing their job right.

It depends on the type of music one plays. I am an old school R&B player, I embrace newer technology, I have been playing guitar since the early 60s. At this point I am quite happy with my Tone King Imperial MK ll. It will probably be my last amp.

I suspect the new version of the FM9 will just have the larger scribble strips that have made it to all their other floor devices. I bet there are no other changes. People still spend a premium on used models of FAS devices that have fallen out of support and they tend to retain their value over time compared to their competitors. The new firmware 6.0 on the FM9, currently in Beta, is amazing! It is already out on the AxeFX III. Best modeled plate and spring verbs you can get. Gapless switching and lots of improvements to the modeling are amazing. The feel and gap between the FAS models compared to the real counterparts continues to shrink. If your benchmark for feel and sound is recording with the physical cabinet in another room you literally can’t tell the difference. The only real difference is if you are standing in front of the cab. Being able to set speaker impedance curve and use a physical power amp to a physical Cab you can completely recreate the feel and sound of the tube amp in the room. I still love physical Amps and have some on my list to acquire but I don’t need to for any reason. It is strictly a want. You’ll see fewer and fewer physical amps as they continue to increase in price. If I’m spending $3000+ for a quality Amp I’d honestly rather put my money into a PRS Guitar. Especially as more and more venues move to silent stages. Again, if you put your back line off-stage, perhaps in a box mic’d somewhere there is no longer a difference in feel or sound to a FAS device.

My fender Mustang is an example. You see in video games that don't keep servers online, or how UPlay lost all the data for Ubisoft games...anything that has an app has a limited lifespan as new versions of the os make them redundant. If I go buy a 68 Traynor hand wired amp, it can be rebuilt with parts off a shelf. I can not go fix my mustang from 2000s if it has software issues. I had a Digitech RP50 that acted up and basically became a brick as it was more to repair than to buy a newer better unit.

Smart take.

If you want the tube sound, you have to deal with the price and the weight etc. If you want the convenience of a modeler, you have to accept getting only 80-90% there. But some situations make the decision for you. I play small venues and blues jams. Using a modeler with IEM and going through the PA is not an option. I have a friend who uses a helix with a small power amp and a cab. That works but it’s not anymore convenient except for the weight. If you are fortunate enough to play where all you need is your fx board and guitar, I get it. I have a pod go I use for silent practice (with my iPad) and it is great. For those of you using a digital board and no amp, how do you get the amp to “talk back” with controlled feedback? And do any of you go to an open mic/jam? How does that work? Thanks for the video 👍

My days in a band are over after many years and I'm 63 now. Still have a few Vox AC30TBXs I'm trying to sell. Damn, that's hard find someone who want to buy them. I'm playing quite a bit in my home studio but it's all digital now and frankly I love it. Would I use digital if I was still gigging? I doubt that but I also understand stage volume is an issue these days so eventually live music will suffer a bit from this too. You often see drum kits with plexi shields surrounding the kits and during my final years playing live I used plexis also for my amps just to be able to turn them up. But in a digital world we need to get used to wedges or in-ears. And you can't really say they all sound that good. Interesting topic for sure.

I personally think it depends on how critical the digital component is to the functionality of the tube amp as a whole. For instance, if the cab simulated outputs of the Revv amp went out, you could still use the power amp output and it pretty much becomes your conventional tube amp. The diezel amp is concerning, because you have a screen that’s needed to navigate the amp controls. Lately I’ve been realizing that if you want to make investments in audio equipment that will last a long time and won’t depreciate in value, analog is the way to go.

I got six solid-state amps and no tube and I blew up a solid state and believe it or not my Reverb delay pedal I don’t know what happened to it but it went out and it took out an amp with it DV, Mark 60

This really made my beanbag tingle!

Stuff like tonex, Kemper profile players will need external fx, midi control ect.. add that all up, you could buy a great amp that keeps its value much better. One of the best options is to use modelers for fx and a real tube amp. Just my opinion.

I've taken the hybrid approach, digital modeling pedals into the effects return of a tube amp. Mostly for more variety because my amps only have 2 channels. And honestly, your audience won't know the difference in a mix.

It is alarming how much software stuff are temporary and I don't think we realise the extent of it yet... App enabled gadgets are pretty cool now but it will become a nighmare... I had this issue this week when I took out a drone I bought 3 years ago. Brand new piece of hardware that has lost over 50% of its features because the app is not on the app store anymore... Developper need to pay to key their app up to date, but why would they do it if they won't make money for that product...business wise, its the logical outcome, but consumer wise, we are doomed. So like you said, software stuff are just not an investment. Glad I still have my old 5150.

Im with you on only analog tube amps. I always consider the amp as parts, can I build a tube amp out of its parts? So if the tech dies, does it still have value!

I hate that about plugins! I've started investing in hardware for recording and mixing. I've got the plugins I couldn't live without but I'm trying to rely less on them and I think it sounds better too IMO. Like you said those plugins that you think you own might not work one day but hardware will never change.

Those digital components in the newer "tube/digital" amps are not going to be "local shop" available components either.

My helix LT that I bought in 2017 new sells used for more than I pad new. At least for now anyway.

Interesting topic, but in my experience there is no right or wrong because at the end of the day you’re supposed to be making music and whatever amp you choose just has to sound good and the person playing it has to be able to play, whether a amp has a tube or not won’t matter, the purpose is still to make music, when you hear a great song it just sounds good to you and if it has a good guitar sound to you that’s what matters

Wow

For me, it is simple economics. I can get a Kemper, Fm9, and quad cortex for under $2000. If I just want 2 valve amps like a Fender twin reverb ($1999) and a Soldano SLO 100 super lead ($3999) I could buy the quad cortex 4 times. Hell I could bet 3 quad cortex for the price of a Diezel VH4 ($4500).

Confusing: "My Marshall tube amp has lasted forver." Then "I've had it in the shop NUMEROUS times." Guess it didn't last numerous times. SS lasts forever, unless it is subjected to water or shock. Yes you can buy an AX8 for 1/2 price - however, you are ignoring the cost of pedals and the fact you could not get ALL the pedals on an AX8 on a pedalboard. With a head you get 3 ch EQ and reverb (maybe) ONLY. Unless it's a sought after amp, you can find several older 5150s, Marshalls, and other tube amps for 60% off. Regard recent trend? Hybrid amp heads were around in the 90s - they are digital and tube, not seeing a end of life as you term it. It's just another way for amp manufacturers to innovate and possible sell more. We all like different things. Bottom Line: Same issues affect SS and tube amps- elements, shock and dust. However, ONLY tube amps need constant replacing of tubes, a cost one does not have with SS. A tube head is mostly just that, zero effects, compressors, loopers, etc., that come with an FM9. The fact that many players are switching live AND in the studio is indicative of the future. Singularly, moving a tube amp to practice, record or gigs is risky - hope you have spare tubes.

I have played on Tube and solid state amps since the 60s. I even have a modeling amp now but I'll take my Classi 30 tube amp over all of them. Portable, sounds great and takes pedals well. I really don't need an amp that tries to imitate 30 other amps and cabinets. Probably the ultimate amp would be a Boss tube amp with the GT-100 multieffects built in.

Give me a tweed deluxe , a small box 50 Marshall , a Vibrolux Reverb , a Gibson Falcon , a 4-10 Bassman , a Deluxe Reverb , an Ampeg Gemini ll , a Supro 1-15 amp and Kirk Hamets " Greeny " Les Paul .

I agree totally...Hybrid amps will not be serviceable forever. Any computer/digital tech is like that. Something you didn't mention is that there are trusted companies making not so great tube amps and pretty expensive. These are mass produced on thin circuit boards and typically have tube sockets mounted directly on these boards. These amps are what I call throw away. I had one of these (I assume you'd rather I not mention brand names) that lierally burned up on me. I had a new amp built in cabinet and used chassis. These amps will not last a lifetime like the old ones would. I realize this is a bit off topic, but worth mentioning I think. Just because it's a tube amp without digital features doesn't mean you have an amp that will last a lifetime.

Adjusted for inflation, $600 1990's dollars are $1,380 2024's dollars. So your Amp has held it's value very well.

i love my quad cortex

Excellent points. Indeed it is rare that digital products are still considered valuable after many many years. So many are excited about the FM9, but I'm pretty sure it will be a laughable product in 20 years. Much like the Line 6 Pod is considered laughable. There are some exceptions when it comes to digital however. Old Lexicon and Eventide products are still considered very valuable and unique. Indeed once they break it will be a pain to fix depending on what's broken. But let's consider that 25 -35year old digital products like old Lexicon & Eventides are still used in professional settings. Personally I love my Mesa MkV:25 amp. Mesa is smart in that their Mk VII amp has an IR loader and can connect via USB, it has nothing to do with the operation of the amp. When USB dies in the future as a different technology supercedes it, The Mesa amp will still continue to kickass.

Yeah, as good as digital modeling amps are today, they are basically disposable. I like keeping a good old tube amp around for dependability and longevity, but I'll often utilize digital stuff for convenience. I just do my research to find good budget solutions for digital equipment, because I know that is money I'll never get back in the long run as an investment. As long as I feel it will make the money back I initially spent on it, I guess it's all good.

1st, historically there always has been either a third party or the original manufacturer(like the factory contracted) that will keep these circuit-boards on hand for products like keyboards and other music gear, if you are buying what is considered on of the major brands and sold a lot of these units then you will probably be able to buy those parts for a decently while even if the company goes bust, as longt as there remains a demand for them. 2nd, if the shift to digital/solid state is a threat to rube amp manufacturers the threat remains and will remain at the pre-amp/effects level of sound production, speakers and power amps will do fine because a set of studio monitors aren't going to be more attractive then a 4x12 for jamming and practice, they sound better in that case, and tube power does sound a little better then solid state. I'd conclude by sayin that tube amp manufacturers should consider a line of platform amps, a nice tube power amp with just a presence and eq, something like everything after the return only heads. this would let someone like me buy a 5/50/100 watt power head for substantially lower price then if i wanted to get a Marshall head and only use the return on it. I have a quilter microblock 45 on my pedal-board and if i need it i have a valvestate 100 watt head. I would prefer to have a tube head with a presence and volume, maybe a 200 watt one for the headroom.

Tube amps are in bad weather. Ergo make them worse by cutting corners.

This is why I've largely given up on modeling and decided to invest in a REAL analog bass amp (a Hartke LH500) and actual analog stompboxes. All of these components will last forever if taken care of, and won't be victims of planned obsolescence. They also sound better, and the fewer options bolster creativity.

“A lot easier to acquire” is best said, “less expensive.”

TBH we need more accessible/affordable tube power amps, or solid state power amps with power tube emulation, without a preamp attached. Not all of these modelers have power tube emulation, and not all of the ones that do have GOOD power tube emulation. Hughes & Kettener and Blackstar are prime examples of GOOD power tube sim, along with IR loaders that have power amp emulation (Mooer Radar, Joyo Cab Box) are great for use with PA systems or into a power amp to run through a cab. Guitar Fetish has a pedal that does nothing but clean boost your FX loop with either 6L6 or EL34 drive and voicing emulation (GFS Twin Clean Drive), and Ignite Amplification has a VST that even does this (TPA-1). These help digital and solid state products sound more life-like.

After being away from any direct involvement with music for over 5 years, I jumped back into it in early '19. To my amazement, gear like the Boss Katana mkii line and the PRS MT15 were just hitting the scene. I did the Katana thing right away, and even bought a second one to link in stereo. But I still wanted a tube amp for my lead tones. I ended up finding a 2018 built MT15 with the 6L6 tubes in the power amp section of it. It also has the revised wiring harness to keep it quiet. I feel like between these 2 amps there's really not much I can't do? My biggest issue with the majority of the guitar amps coming out in the last couple years, is the ridiculous amount of features that's inevitably built into them? Do modern guitarists really want or need all the bells and whistles? I just wanna plug in and play. I don't wanna have to download files or buy expensive cables to link to other devices. I just wanna rock! Sometimes I think all these complex rigs will be landfill sooner than later. And everyone will go back to simple rigs again. That's my hope. I certainly don't need to spend over $1000 U.S. to have fun. Speaker cabs? That's a whole nother scam going on.

I like my AC15 and pedals, but I get bored with it in half an hour and move back to my digital solutions going into cabs, or monitors, or earphones, or to my theater system, or bluetoothed to my outdoor sound system. I love pulling up millions of dollars worth of amps and effects within seconds and playing every genre of music you can imagine in a split-second. Tube amps are good for the touch responsiveness and emulating the same sounds and artists we've heard for over half a century. But they don't do enough for the modern musician or someone trying to create new music and sounds. I might buy some more tube amps in the future, but it's while knowing I'm paying exponentially more for a fraction of the features.

While I agree that the feel of the actual real amp in a room is different from a modeler, owning the actual tube amp can be a chore. Had an Orange TH-30C, loved it. But it was a nightmare to get it to gigs, big and heavy. Had to repair it twice. And it was too loud to use in the apartment. Ended up selling it.

How would you define your first Yamaha amp as sounding "terrible" (1:40)? In other words, how is great vs terrible tone really defined? 🤔