A Controlled Look at Winsor & Newton Ox Gall Liquid & QoR Synthetic Ox Gall

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Oh hey! It's that Ox Gall video I promised you ages ago! Today we take a look at Winsor & Newton Ox Gall and QoRs Synthetic Ox Gall in a rather controlled experiment to compare their different applications across three different types of paper.
Do you use ox gall or synthetic oxgall? Let us know about your experiences with it in the comments below!
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Опубликовано:

4 дек 2017

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Комментарии : 93

@Roslyngal 6 лет назад

Never worry that these kinds of videos rattle on too long or go too deep- I really appreciate the depth and breadth. Someone’s gotta do the tests right, and you do! Thanks for adding to the knowledge bank. Cos she who dies with the most knowledge wins, right?! 🤓

@ArtbyJRRH 6 лет назад

I did some research when I had picked up my bottle of ox gall and found that it works best for me when mixed with the paint prior to a wet in wet wash rather than the wash itself. The surfactant (molecules with one end that is attracted to water and the other end which is repulsed by water) elements of the ox gall will form around the impurities in the water, the paper, or even themselves, rather than around the pigment if it's introduced much later. I don't use it very often anymore except when I need a very dramatic effect, and then I will use higher than recommended concentrations. Overall, it's just another part of what makes watercolor such a unique medium.

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

Art by JRRH thanks so much for the information!

@TobermoryCat 5 лет назад

So have you set aside a set of paints which you add ox gall to each pan ( could be done / mixed at the poring stage of filling pans)? When you say " a very dramatic effect" I'm curious to know what you mean? Does it bunch the finer particles together, adding to a granulation effect or is it more to do with the interaction of ox gall mixed pigments and unadulterated pigments on the paper? Interesting stuff, thanks.

@parthsavyasachi9348 4 года назад

@@TobermoryCat he perhaps means mixed to paint on pallette.

@karritz1542 2 года назад

The only time I've used ox gall was when I did some marbeling.

@mjpete27 5 лет назад

You are simply one of the best artists at showing your audience your process and methodology. I enjoy watching your videos and appreciate your thoroughness and professionalism. I doubt that I will ever use this product, I have enough going on just using regular technique in my work. Thank you again Denise really a wonderful video!

@bevroberts8440 6 лет назад

Thanks for sharing the results of your experiment; very interesting!

@erins.5420 6 лет назад

I’ve tested this with paints known to not add oxgall to their paint. Mission gold does not use oxgall and the difference is pretty dramatic. Using this medium with oxgall already in the paints is a hard to gather on papers hard sized that I found. Great review of oxgall!

@RebekkaHay 6 лет назад

This was so helpful Denise, thanks so much. I have not used Oxgall before, I will have to do some testing with my own papers.

@diana3599 6 лет назад

Thank you for the demonstration. Ox Gall is a wetting agent, increasing flow. Original development of a synthetic version was likely for the need for a consistent quality "gall". (Not impacted by the animals health, diet, etc.) and trying to bring down the overall cost. If artists did not find the synthetic version was better or at least comparable it would not be able to compete on the market. Cruelty free is often an after thought, unfortunately.. Sizing specifics seems to be a paper company's 'secret recipe". I have been told by art instructors that Arches is "hard-sized". And if you found the synthetic product puddled more on it.... You may find the wonderful online resource Handprint by Bruce MacElvoy interesting. Please keep the videos coming.

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

Thanks for sharing Diana. I reference Handprint very often :)

@diana3599 6 лет назад

and the old school Ralph Meyers Artist Handbook is interesting also. Think the most recent edition is from the 70"s

@SherlynTalactac 6 лет назад

I have the schmincke oxgall in a halfpan. It's fun for its purpose and points for portability. I use it as mix in the palette.

@conniewilliams2256 3 года назад

Thank you for sharing this. I'm going to go check that out! I'm new to this watercolor stuff. I'm coming over from acrylics. 🖌🎨

@woodrly1 3 года назад

I tried Winsor Newton, on Arches hot press because paint just doesn’t move on it well. It painted pretty much like painting on their cold press with the advantage of the smoother surface. It worked pretty well but if you don’t need the smoothness Cold press with out ox gall is my favorite.

@artofsharonrbradford 11 месяцев назад

Extremely helpful. Thank you.

@katherinesimonds622 6 лет назад

You are truly a scientist at heart 😅

@Rockymtnbloom 6 лет назад

Great demo for an additive I have been curious about!

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

Glad it's helpful!

@azalea1404 2 года назад

Thanks a lot. This was very useful info. Will def. get the Strathmore 500 paper if I buy ox gall.

@MichaelMarko 4 года назад

Great job!

@Dan.B.Artist 6 лет назад

Ive been looking forward to this! I have a pan of dried schmincke oxgal, don't really use it I find it makes my paint flow quicker and easier but not really any better.

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

Penholder Art I have yet to try the pans! I know the larger Schmincke sets come with it standard, though their Horadam paints contain it by default anyway. I agree, not better or worse though, just different :)

@gorway7 5 лет назад

Interesting results Denise. I don't have a lot of experience with this but I do use wetting agent in my water brushes - (tiny drop of dish soap) to aid flow. One thought that struck me is if there would be any difference in adding gall to the paint via the wash water rather than paint to ox gall wetted paper? i.e dispersant into water as opposed to paint into dispersant ?? It seems really odd that more gall in the pre wet had the opposite effect.

@milenabdesign 6 лет назад

I use a few drops of ox gall in my homemade watercolour vehicle, to help with the flow. I never cared to use it while painting, although now I'm thinking I might use it with some papers I have. Thank you Denise for another impeccably organised video!

@icanhazKnit 5 лет назад

Lol “sounded kinda fake after awhile” 😂 I know this feeling! ox gall, ox gall, ox gall!

@scottbrenham1341 4 года назад

I saw the qor medium was not sure if i should try it. I usually paint with water building thick layers up. The only color that cracks easiest is white. It must have to do with weak binding.

@paulwhite760 6 лет назад

What comes to mind...Is QoR ox gall better suited to QoR colours...how does W&N oxgall go with QoR colours. Do these mediums have any effect on lightfastness ? Does Golden recommend any specific papers for their QoR colours ?

@palominox64 5 месяцев назад

Bear in mind that QoR already has synthetic ox gall mixed into the paint. (Tube and pan). QoR uses it as both a binder vehicle AND dispersant (the way a traditional watercolor paint- most- use Gum Arabic.) Also some brands add a tiny bit of ox gall also to the paint to make sure all the pigment particles get evenly coated…

@margerygriffith1145 3 года назад

TO: Isle of Mull FPV My family was in the printing INK industry so I know this: pigments made from minerals, that is REAL ROCKS will granulate. They are more costly than pigments made stomach other things like chemicals, but cause grinding stones down to be fine enough to make paints etc. is very hard on the mills that to the grinding, they wear out much faster. The ‘rocks’ never quite disappear in the product so they can crop out of solution and thus appear to be grainy since they ARE grainy! No special name for it that i’’m aware of. Dan’l Smith makes a wonderful LINE of mineral watercolors and I love granulation!

@ThePinkstampergirl 5 лет назад

Thanks for doing this video and for saying please don't say it if you dont for sure know. I used the W&N OX GALL and I'm not sure I was that impressed with it, but I used a paper that wasn't really good for the test. I too tried to find out if there is a paper that you must used with it? Hugs and happiness, Briana C. 😊💜

@TaraSueSalusso Год назад

The next time you do a test, if you decide to do another test, you should consider putting the ox gal in the paint. From my experience, and I must admit it’s limited, the ox gal has always been added to the paint and then put on the surface, you will see a huge difference when you do the test.

@CyaneInkArt 6 лет назад

I really like using oxgall. For example, Canson Moulin du royce need one coat of oxgall to be usable for me. But I like using hot press paper and Qor watercolors, so that may affect to things. Also Holbein don't use oxgall, so some of their paint need it to flow. I use Qor oxgall with Qor watercolors and traditional oxgall from schmincke for anything else. I'm really interested to try schmincke onez ox gall, which is in pan form!

@Dan.B.Artist 6 лет назад

Ive been having problems with moulin du roy papers they're really nice to paint on after a couple of layers however the paint keeps lifting, any tips?

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

Penholder Art in my testing, moulin du Roy was the king of listing cleanly and beautifully, but that also means it will lift. Other papers like Arches latch on to the paint, preventing lifting but keeping paints in place for lifting. I believe there are mediums to make the paper MORE liftable, but I wouldn't know how to go about making the paper less prone to it. .

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

CyaneInk Art QoR paints move around so much already! You're quite brave :) I tend to recommend paints like Holbein and others that don't move much for beginners who are coming from acrylic or oil. Loss of control is often a complaint, so they can be helpful. I love that there are options for everyone's style!

@heathercatlady546 6 лет назад

In Liquid Color @CyaneInk Art I was just thinking the same thing, Denise! Since some of your testing showed less movement with the higher concentration of ox gall, I’m curious to know if it decreases the flow of Qor to a more typical flow. I’ve heard rumors that Qor’s crazy flow has more to do with ox gall than aquazol, so maybe it’s worth pursuing? Perhaps that’s ox gall video #2, “How to tame Qor with an ox” 😂.

@veystone2580 Год назад

Do you, by any chance, know if this product could help with the beading up issues on plastic/metal palettes?

@InLiquidColor Год назад

I haven't tried it! I do think I've heard people talk about that, but I usually just rough my palette up a bit with a gently touch of a scrubby sponge.

@EveBolt 6 лет назад

It's so odd how the Qor one behaved on Arches! I'm glad it's an option though. I wonder if there are any higher-quality, cotton watercolor papers that use a vegan way of sizing their papers...? After this look at oxgall, how do you think you would use it on your work..?

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

Eve Bolt - Bolt's Vault I'm working on a vegan watercolor paint video and if that goes well I'll do a paper guide too, but it's a LOT of work to compile everything so it may take a while. I don't think I'll personally use oxgall or the synthetic for my own applications but perhaps if I can ever afford one of Angela's classes it may come in useful!

@dmaterka 5 лет назад

Canson Heritage Watercolour Paper has synthetic sizing.

@SharonH11100 6 лет назад

Good job ~ you’re as much a scientist as artist. Thanks and my personal goodbye to all oxgall😽

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

:D I love when science meets art!

@woodrly1 3 года назад

I mix it in the water that mix the paint with instead of dropping it on to wet paper.

@TobermoryCat 6 лет назад

Random question - anyone know what you call the speckled effect produced by some colours like Prussian blue on a first wash on a decent rag paper? It appears when you heavily load up a lot of pigment - speckles appear as it dries up. There must be technical name for it. Just curious

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

Isle of Mull FPV there's two things I. An think of. If it's the paint itself speckling that is granulation, though Prussian blue isn't the first color that comes to mind for that. The other less common thing is that I've had paper "go bad" and have it speckle when water is applied and it stains the painting. Mostly like granulation though :) I've got a video on that if you like.

@TobermoryCat 6 лет назад

Yep, had badly sized paper in the past - this is different. Its a curious effect which seems like certain colours have less wetting agent or cannot get into the papers size compared to other paints. DS Indanthrone Blue and Prussian Blue are the best for producing the effect for me. Try it on a clean dry untouched bit of fresh rag paper - load a very paint loaded mix of paint and do a 2 inch swatch - don't disturb the paint, let it dry flat, watch the snow specks appear. It works on my remaining stash of Whatman paper ( 30 year old!) and the newer papers I use. People never seem to mention this behaviour/ effect.

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

Isle of Mull FPV hmm I get a white speckling effect on my Arches and especially Strathmore 500 papers sometimes. I don't like it at all and will cover it with another wash to try to negate it.

@TobermoryCat 6 лет назад

it used to bug me but I now think of it in the same way as granulation - very watercolour.

@TobermoryCat 6 лет назад

Ah, good thinking. I will check it out.

@SharonNolfi 6 лет назад

Excellent video, Denise. I can't find any info on the contents of synthetic oxtail, either. I'm wondering if it is truly free of animal products - it doesn't say so on the packaging. What do you think?

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

I don't have any doubt that it's free of animal products. QoR is pretty loyal to that claim in general, and I know that they use this in their paint and that their paints are vegan except for those containing ivory black :) I just don't know what it's made out of instead... like sure plastic bags don't contain trees, but they're still worse for the environment. Like I said, I don't want to spread speculation since I don't know for sure, it's just a question I've had lately in general across many brands (I'm looking at you, Primateks).

@SharonNolfi 6 лет назад

What are the issues with Primateks?

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

Sharon Nolfi I can't confirm anything. I've asked them but no response. My concern is that they are mined from remote locations and IF those are in sensitive habitats there would be a problem. But I cannot stress enough that I cannot confirm this because it's not information they share.

@SharonNolfi 6 лет назад

Thanks. I understand your position. Maybe I'll do a little research on my own. My impression has been that DS is a responsible company, but who really knows - everything is so fragile all around the globe.

@adriaanvanpijkeren9770 6 лет назад

Have you ever checked out watercolor impasto?

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

Adriaan van Pijkeren I have not.

@jewellmoebus7976 6 лет назад

really good video saved me somefrustrtion. What lbs was the Canson & Strathmore paper vd 140 lb Arches??? I almost always use Arches 140 but have used Strathmore 400 or 500 ...

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

Thanks Jewell, Both were 140lb. The Strathmore 400 and 500 are also the same weight.

@jjjosephpppag 5 лет назад

I think you're suppose to add it to the paint

@StephenMarkTurner 6 лет назад

Thanks. I don't think that I will bother getting any to try, simply painting more wet / more pigment seemed to be about as effective, to my old eyes anyway. And that name 'oxgall' - shudder :-). I wonder if you can change the sizing of paper by using water that has had potatoes or pasta cooked in it (the starch). Hmmmm :-)

@gorway7 5 лет назад

It's not about changing the sizing, it's dealing with surface tension and making the water in the paint and on the page more wet. Ox gall is a natural detergent and wetting agent, synthetic ox gall is just a type of man made detergent like dish soap or washing up liquid but without any additives like fat digesters (enzymes), fragrance or thickeners.

@TheGardenKitten 5 лет назад

I know this is an old vid, but I just wanted to ad, that when I need additional flow, I just ad a drop of dish soap to my clean water jar, it works just as well. and gives me a lot of flow

@gorway7 5 лет назад

Me too... I use the cheap unbranded thin stuff - No colorants, perfumes or thickeners. I find that works best.

@SharonRosen 4 года назад

That's brilliant. Does it harm the longevity of the paint in any way? I definitely prefer the idea of using that and I can't wait to experiment!

@gorway7 4 года назад

@@SharonRosen Not that I've found and I've been doing this a long time, but I purposely choose the the really cheap unbranded clear thin stuff, "basic detergent" for which I pay about 50 Pence a bottle.- "Supermarket budget or Saver brands". Top brand stuff like like Fairy Platinum has additional enzyme / bio fat digesters and I don't know how they would effect some organic pigments, but saying that, ox gall I would imagine is an enzyme too. You only work with tiny amounts, not direct from the bottle. I have a 15ml eye dropper bottle and add about a drop of detergent and fill with water. Start with just 1 drop and see how it goes. I use this solution to add a drop or 2 to some paint on the palette. Remember you are only using this as a wetting agent not washing up grease so a little goes a long way. Keep it away from your fresh paint or pans.

@SharonRosen 4 года назад

@@gorway7 Awesome, thank you for your detailed reply. I will definitely try this!

@MalamikArt 6 лет назад

I don't think I could bring myself to use this product, synthetic or no. Just for the animal lover in me LOl But it seems to work beautifully as you have well demonstrated.

@sherrylynns5325 6 лет назад

Could you add some glycerin to water to get the same effect?

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

Sherry Frascona Art I have a video on adding glycerine to paint before letting it dry so that it acts as a plasticizer but havent tested it in water.

@gorway7 5 лет назад

No, it's different - Glycerin is a humectant, it will just slow the drying. It may be useful for plein air in warm arid climates but not sure if it would have any effect on flow.

@margerygriffith1145 3 года назад

I forgot to add that Windsor Newton makes a special Granulation Medium. My bottle does not list it’s ingredients. In any event, to me, it’s foolish to be skemish! All life in intended to die at some point in time.

@krabfingers8473 Год назад

I just mix a separate cup of water with 2-4 drops of Qor's synthetic ox gall and use them to dilute my paints on my mixing palette, then boom they explode! It pairs well with watercolors without ox gall like Shinhan PWC.

@andrecardon2141 3 года назад

Well I didn't see the dufference between the 3. Sorry and thank you for your video

@nickelazoyellow7360 4 года назад

The idea of bile in my paints is just...ick. I like Qor for how much it moves around. More so than other brands in general I think, (without adding more "ox gall" in.)

@brainysmarticus 6 лет назад

Great video! My nerdy needs are met x) Bad point for qor. As a consumer I have the right to know what's in my product. I hope they'll share that info soon. Till then I won't be buying it. Also I had no idea for the gelatine in paper. I'll be digging more into that.Thank you! Could you make a video about watercolor paper/how it's made or is this too nerdy for your audience ?

@InLiquidColor 6 лет назад

Nymphalia it's really hard to find information about art supply compositions because it's often proprietary information that they don't want to share with their competitors. It sucks, but it's definitely not specific to QoR. I didn't try contacting them directly so they may be able to tell you if you email them. My current massive understating is that I'm working on a vegan watercolor paint video. It's insanely difficult to find ingredients for all the different brands but I am trying to get all the information in one place. If that goes well, I can do the same for papers which would include a bit about what goes into making the papers.

@brainysmarticus 6 лет назад

In Liquid Color awesome! Can't wait for that video! My esthetician background makes me very mindful (?) of compositions and ingredients. Art is the dark side of the force

@lldd11 2 года назад

Honestly, afterter watching this video I don't understand what this medium does (or supposed to do) just as much as I didn't understand before watching this video. So thank you for your time but it was not helpful.

@FreeSpokenOne 4 года назад

Interesting comments here. Thanks for doing experiments with this for us to learn from. As to the animal cruelty factor I also love animals but take exception to the implication that by using a non synthetic product it somehow means I don't or am uncaring toward them. To each their own and if this product is objectionable to anybody by all means pass on using it, but please keep personal moral judgements to yourselves because it's starting to get very old with the rest of us.